With the lifeform gestation times I can't see Hypermutation being all that useful aside from perhaps gorging to heal something after you're sure the marine push is dead. Unless is makes the gestation times significantly faster or none at all. WTB more details on it :s
And even so, Shift seems to be a secondary Hive only type thing... There still won't be any variety or tact when choosing your tech path as an alien... Crag Hive/carapace -> Augmentation -> Shift Hive -> Backup Crag Hive. The state of the alien upgrades just seems pretty messy.
<!--quoteo(post=1936590:date=May 16 2012, 03:40 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ May 16 2012, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you go Lerk with hypermutation you can go for free skulk, back to Lerk, for 20 more res Fade and back to gorge for free etc. I don't know if it also counts if you die.
F.e. you are Fade and killed 3 rines trying to kill an RT, go gorge heal it up, place some hydras and go back to Fade (in a shorter time than normal). Or you are Onos in SUB hive gets rushed in Atrium, go Fade, Blink to Atrium and reOnos at the other side of hive in 3 or so second. So it can be a very powerfull Upgrade<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It "can" be. Sounds like Hyper-Mutation is going to be very situational to the point where if you need it, you're probably already losing, or you've already won the game and swamped in p.res that it's just icing on the cake (gimmick). Crag hive will still be the most optimal and logical choice for first hive since the game is about the first 5ish minutes. If the aliens are not able to expand, secure nodes and keep those nodes, the Marines will begin to swamp them with superior scaling.
And whats the best way for Aliens to secure areas? By killing and holding marines back. And whats the best way for them to kill Marines? By increasing their offensive and defensive power. Except for the fact that Aliens have zero offensive tech and only one defensive tech you can grab within the first five minutes of the game, especially to offset Marines rushing shotguns. Once again, you'll be putting your team at a disadvantage by not going Crag first for carapace just for the sake that you can go fade -> gorge back to fade for free later in the game, which probably had costed you that game in the first place.
<!--quoteo(post=1936582:date=May 16 2012, 02:56 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 16 2012, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its not really a big a deal as it sounds. Its actually this way with most upgrades, but we don't notice it that much, until you actually say it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a big deal until you realize crag will be the only first viable chamber. It's headed towards the same way movement chambers were in NS1. You are also forgetting about umbra, which is crazy-good -awesome. Hopefully the next few patches give some parity to the chambers.
<!--quoteo(post=1936582:date=May 16 2012, 11:56 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 16 2012, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its not really a big a deal as it sounds. Its actually this way with most upgrades, but we don't notice it that much, until you actually say it.
Carapace is a little too general, and always has been, but has its draw backs. Every class can use carapace, and it is a big improvement, but with level 1 guns up and decent aim, it isn't giving you all that much.
Regeneration is nice to have, but nobody is taking it before carapace, that already means it isn't <b>as useful</b>. Even then, while people still evolve to it if 2 hives are up, what real use is regeneration to a skulk, or even a gorge? Sure, it has its niche moments (rarely), but ultimately its an ability for Lerks, Fades and Onos only.
Silence is quite clearly designed almost entirely for skulks, and to a lesser degree Lerks. Fades might get something out of it, if just to be different, but ultimately its a two lifeform upgrade (and always has been even in NS1).
Even when looking at celerity in NS1, you can see how limited its uses were. As a gorge, taking celerity was more of a party trick, as an Onos, there was little point. Fade does most of his movement through blinking, so any benefit he gains needs to be multiplied by the percentage of time he spends actually moving by foot. Essentially it is once again an ability made for skulks and lerks, but it didn't make it a bad upgrade by any standards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just fyi, celerity in NS1 increase the fade's blinking speed, as well as his base speed. Getting any other movement chamber upgrade on the fade, was a waste.
In competitive play, celerity was 'the' movement chamber upgrade of choice. Occasionally, based on the game play situation, skulks would go silence, and Gorges, Lerks and Onos would go adrenaline. Celerity was the best upgrade in NS1, followed closely by Focus.
<!--quoteo(post=1936336:date=May 15 2012, 02:33 AM:name=Brackhar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brackhar @ May 15 2012, 02:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to be pedantic, but clicking on a single unit and then activating the ability of said unit in a non-toggle manner is the textbook definition of micro.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the other hand, it gets done in an overall 'macro cycle' like making workers and overlords, larva injecting, spreading creep and so on in starcraft. If you make shades and want to use them to their full potential, you regularly tap 2 keys in a row to apply the cloak, and there's nothing situational about it like there is for clumping mutalisks, stutterstepping marines, blinking stalkers etc. I hate to use only SC2 examples, but I can't think of too many significant micro actions in NS2 (since a lot of it is done independently by players and it's a different type of game).
is it 'micro' when I research grenade launchers on the armory? keep in mind that the usefulness of these terms is in how they allow you to describe gameplay, not in how they form an opportunity to show off your possession of a dictionary
<!--quoteo(post=1936629:date=May 16 2012, 08:54 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ May 16 2012, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Celerity was the best upgrade in NS1, followed closely by Focus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I am a skulk and in base trying to get the commander to activate the shade, apart from spamming 'CLOAK PLEASE' 1000 times I repeatedly bite the shade and press E against it.
Why not have it so that when a life form presses 'E' against a Shade/Crag/Shift it alerts the commander both visually and audibly for the request.
I am sure there could be much better ways of doing it, even by attacking the structure several times?
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Isn't alien cloak time also tied to the time the shade has left for it's active cloak? So if an alien is cloaked by an active shade torwards the end of timer the alien is cloaked for a small, dice roll amount of time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not have it so that when a life form presses 'E' against a Shade/Crag/Shift it alerts the commander both visually and audibly for the request?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Footstep sound etc. are still not quite where they used to be in NS1 (have gotten better a lot though) so that diminishes the effectiveness of the silence upgrade. Despite that I have a feeling silence is underrated by most people. It noticeably increases my survivability on all lifeforms (except the Onos perhaps) because despite being somewhat unreliable right now sound <i>does</i> still play a big role in tracking and people <i>will</i> shoot you less if you have silence. At least in pub play. I don't play competitively.
<!--quoteo(post=1936651:date=May 17 2012, 06:05 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ May 17 2012, 06:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When I am a skulk and in base trying to get the commander to activate the shade, apart from spamming 'CLOAK PLEASE' 1000 times I repeatedly bite the shade and press E against it.
Why not have it so that when a life form presses 'E' against a Shade/Crag/Shift it alerts the commander both visually and audibly for the request.
I am sure there could be much better ways of doing it, even by attacking the structure several times?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd be surprised how flickering a flashlight, spraypainting, clearly showing urgency at a particular object (that <i>looks</i> like a press-able button, btw), and jumping and pressing "use" can be totally ignored by 8 of 16 people in a server... that's a 50% chance your comm might be one of those people. :\ there's also a 50% chance that your entire team will be made up of those people.
Well, you could say carapace and crag hive is op in it's current form. As for the shade upgrades, I think silence is fine basically, but generally regen + cara have more general usefullness (as 3rd upgrade it is good though). That needs to be changed to make the upgrades on the other hive(s) more viable. As for the com side of things you also get a crag which is an invalueable asset. It is a stationary healing station which can be used to prevent that people have to fall back to your main hive (thus, they can spend more time attacking) and you also get a very powerful buff. In some cases you can also make a gorge obsolete if you a crag unless your buildings (most likely hive) is under very heavy attack. As for the shade however, it only makes stuff invisible, and it can be easily countered by a scan/obs. Once the eniemies know where the buildings are they can easily take them regardless of cloak. It gives your players the ability to get 1 or 2 extra hits by surprise, but that advantage only works once. Combined with the lower durability of the skulks i think it makes them overall weaker, except on that first strike.
Cloak is useless yeah, I think it should permanently cloak you, however, the degree og visibility could be based on your movement speed (full invisibity = no movement, only very sightly visible when walking, somewhat visible when running and when going at very high speed you should be able to be spotted by a marine who pays attention,)
While it probably doesn't make much sense gamedesign-wise, the crag could also be moved to another hive (so basically, crag hive still gives cara/regen, but no crags anymore), or in a similar manner regen could be moved to another hive. While this is not addressing the general usefulness it forces you to get more then one type of hive to get your 'decent' setup, which may lead that we see other hives more often (and their abilities).
Another idea is to balance the hives by resource cost, essentially making shade hive and the upgrades free for example. Assuming you want a shade and silence/cloak you'd only have to spend 20 TRES this way and you'd have a quite large reserve for going for a 2nd hive (where you could go for cara). It still is a risky start, but much more viable as you can get the 2nd hive sooner with the extra res.
Comments
And even so, Shift seems to be a secondary Hive only type thing... There still won't be any variety or tact when choosing your tech path as an alien... Crag Hive/carapace -> Augmentation -> Shift Hive -> Backup Crag Hive. The state of the alien upgrades just seems pretty messy.
I don't know if it also counts if you die.
F.e. you are Fade and killed 3 rines trying to kill an RT, go gorge heal it up, place some hydras and go back to Fade (in a shorter time than normal). Or you are Onos in SUB hive gets rushed in Atrium, go Fade, Blink to Atrium and reOnos at the other side of hive in 3 or so second.
So it can be a very powerfull Upgrade<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It "can" be. Sounds like Hyper-Mutation is going to be very situational to the point where if you need it, you're probably already losing, or you've already won the game and swamped in p.res that it's just icing on the cake (gimmick). Crag hive will still be the most optimal and logical choice for first hive since the game is about the first 5ish minutes. If the aliens are not able to expand, secure nodes and keep those nodes, the Marines will begin to swamp them with superior scaling.
And whats the best way for Aliens to secure areas? By killing and holding marines back. And whats the best way for them to kill Marines? By increasing their offensive and defensive power. Except for the fact that Aliens have zero offensive tech and only one defensive tech you can grab within the first five minutes of the game, especially to offset Marines rushing shotguns. Once again, you'll be putting your team at a disadvantage by not going Crag first for carapace just for the sake that you can go fade -> gorge back to fade for free later in the game, which probably had costed you that game in the first place.
It's not a big deal until you realize crag will be the only first viable chamber. It's headed towards the same way movement chambers were in NS1. You are also forgetting about umbra, which is crazy-good -awesome. Hopefully the next few patches give some parity to the chambers.
Carapace is a little too general, and always has been, but has its draw backs. Every class can use carapace, and it is a big improvement, but with level 1 guns up and decent aim, it isn't giving you all that much.
Regeneration is nice to have, but nobody is taking it before carapace, that already means it isn't <b>as useful</b>. Even then, while people still evolve to it if 2 hives are up, what real use is regeneration to a skulk, or even a gorge? Sure, it has its niche moments (rarely), but ultimately its an ability for Lerks, Fades and Onos only.
Silence is quite clearly designed almost entirely for skulks, and to a lesser degree Lerks. Fades might get something out of it, if just to be different, but ultimately its a two lifeform upgrade (and always has been even in NS1).
Even when looking at celerity in NS1, you can see how limited its uses were. As a gorge, taking celerity was more of a party trick, as an Onos, there was little point. Fade does most of his movement through blinking, so any benefit he gains needs to be multiplied by the percentage of time he spends actually moving by foot. Essentially it is once again an ability made for skulks and lerks, but it didn't make it a bad upgrade by any standards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just fyi, celerity in NS1 increase the fade's blinking speed, as well as his base speed. Getting any other movement chamber upgrade on the fade, was a waste.
In competitive play, celerity was 'the' movement chamber upgrade of choice. Occasionally, based on the game play situation, skulks would go silence, and Gorges, Lerks and Onos would go adrenaline. Celerity was the best upgrade in NS1, followed closely by Focus.
On the other hand, it gets done in an overall 'macro cycle' like making workers and overlords, larva injecting, spreading creep and so on in starcraft. If you make shades and want to use them to their full potential, you regularly tap 2 keys in a row to apply the cloak, and there's nothing situational about it like there is for clumping mutalisks, stutterstepping marines, blinking stalkers etc. I hate to use only SC2 examples, but I can't think of too many significant micro actions in NS2 (since a lot of it is done independently by players and it's a different type of game).
is it 'micro' when I research grenade launchers on the armory? keep in mind that the usefulness of these terms is in how they allow you to describe gameplay, not in how they form an opportunity to show off your possession of a dictionary
<!--quoteo(post=1936629:date=May 16 2012, 08:54 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ May 16 2012, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Celerity was the best upgrade in NS1, followed closely by Focus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
reminds me of how I miss Focus in this game :(
Why not have it so that when a life form presses 'E' against a Shade/Crag/Shift it alerts the commander both visually and audibly for the request.
I am sure there could be much better ways of doing it, even by attacking the structure several times?
So if an alien is cloaked by an active shade torwards the end of timer the alien is cloaked for a small, dice roll amount of time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not have it so that when a life form presses 'E' against a Shade/Crag/Shift it alerts the commander both visually and audibly for the request?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice idea.
Why not have it so that when a life form presses 'E' against a Shade/Crag/Shift it alerts the commander both visually and audibly for the request.
I am sure there could be much better ways of doing it, even by attacking the structure several times?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd be surprised how flickering a flashlight, spraypainting, clearly showing urgency at a particular object (that <i>looks</i> like a press-able button, btw), and jumping and pressing "use" can be totally ignored by 8 of 16 people in a server... that's a 50% chance your comm might be one of those people. :\ there's also a 50% chance that your entire team will be made up of those people.
As for the com side of things you also get a crag which is an invalueable asset. It is a stationary healing station which can be used to prevent that people have to fall back to your main hive (thus, they can spend more time attacking) and you also get a very powerful buff. In some cases you can also make a gorge obsolete if you a crag unless your buildings (most likely hive) is under very heavy attack.
As for the shade however, it only makes stuff invisible, and it can be easily countered by a scan/obs. Once the eniemies know where the buildings are they can easily take them regardless of cloak. It gives your players the ability to get 1 or 2 extra hits by surprise, but that advantage only works once. Combined with the lower durability of the skulks i think it makes them overall weaker, except on that first strike.
Cloak is useless yeah, I think it should permanently cloak you, however, the degree og visibility could be based on your movement speed (full invisibity = no movement, only very sightly visible when walking, somewhat visible when running and when going at very high speed you should be able to be spotted by a marine who pays attention,)
While it probably doesn't make much sense gamedesign-wise, the crag could also be moved to another hive (so basically, crag hive still gives cara/regen, but no crags anymore), or in a similar manner regen could be moved to another hive. While this is not addressing the general usefulness it forces you to get more then one type of hive to get your 'decent' setup, which may lead that we see other hives more often (and their abilities).
Another idea is to balance the hives by resource cost, essentially making shade hive and the upgrades free for example. Assuming you want a shade and silence/cloak you'd only have to spend 20 TRES this way and you'd have a quite large reserve for going for a 2nd hive (where you could go for cara). It still is a risky start, but much more viable as you can get the 2nd hive sooner with the extra res.