Hydra Focus Mod
<div class="IPBDescription">Remote controlled Hydras / dynamic defense</div>Hello people,
due to the recent discussions about Hydras (general power || Hydras costing TRES or not || dissolve after 1 min when not being gorge), I decided to approach this "Hydra problem" from a different side by adding a player skill curve to them.
Original <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118255&st=60" target="_blank">post</a>:
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My suggestion for the Hydras is this:
<ul><li>keep them free</li><li>let them not dissolve</li><li>adjust the hit scan to the power Hydras had in the previous builds </li><li>3 Hydras for the first hive - +1 Hydra for each following hive</li><li>make them semi controllable by the gorge or in other words -> make them dynamic defense</li></ul>
What do I mean with semi controllable?
If the creator gorge is in range (like a room) of the Hydras he can actually shoot the Hydra spikes himself as an own ability. I imagine it like the parasite from the skulk. If you hit with that "parasite", the Hydras will also hit (when the marine is in line of sight ofc). This way the Hydras do not have a fix dmg, but a scaling with the skill (aim) level of the gorge.
What would change?
<ul><li>Hydra dmg scales with player skill -> more fun</li><li>spamming Hydras and changing lifeforms is still possible but less effective </li><li>Hydras are more like an actual ability, and not just a static structure with a fix dmg</li><li>the gorge has much more tactical choices -></li><li>> Hydra placement (all Hydras in one place -> focus dmg || Hydras in different places -> more chance of hitting (line of sight))</li><li>> healing the Hydras (or self) or be more aggressive and attack the marines</li></ul>
In my opinion the Hydras should be a support ability and not a way to easily gain map control. Actual static defense should remain in the hands of the comm hence costing TRES (let whips pick up rocks and throw them at marines or give the comm another damaging defense structure).
It is not possible to balance Hydras as actual static defense for both pub and comp play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Long story short I managed to create my first mod.
Here is the video:
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xG48F3TNDUI"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xG48F3TNDUI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Things that could be implemented:
> tracers that go from the Hydras point of view to your cross hair (a bit like the pistol laser)
> secondary fire mode that does something different (like structure damage?)
Downside: at the moment this takes away 1 ability slot (button 3). Maybe the structure menu could be moved away from the ability slots.
So.. What do you guys think? Feedback would be much appreciated.
due to the recent discussions about Hydras (general power || Hydras costing TRES or not || dissolve after 1 min when not being gorge), I decided to approach this "Hydra problem" from a different side by adding a player skill curve to them.
Original <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118255&st=60" target="_blank">post</a>:
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My suggestion for the Hydras is this:
<ul><li>keep them free</li><li>let them not dissolve</li><li>adjust the hit scan to the power Hydras had in the previous builds </li><li>3 Hydras for the first hive - +1 Hydra for each following hive</li><li>make them semi controllable by the gorge or in other words -> make them dynamic defense</li></ul>
What do I mean with semi controllable?
If the creator gorge is in range (like a room) of the Hydras he can actually shoot the Hydra spikes himself as an own ability. I imagine it like the parasite from the skulk. If you hit with that "parasite", the Hydras will also hit (when the marine is in line of sight ofc). This way the Hydras do not have a fix dmg, but a scaling with the skill (aim) level of the gorge.
What would change?
<ul><li>Hydra dmg scales with player skill -> more fun</li><li>spamming Hydras and changing lifeforms is still possible but less effective </li><li>Hydras are more like an actual ability, and not just a static structure with a fix dmg</li><li>the gorge has much more tactical choices -></li><li>> Hydra placement (all Hydras in one place -> focus dmg || Hydras in different places -> more chance of hitting (line of sight))</li><li>> healing the Hydras (or self) or be more aggressive and attack the marines</li></ul>
In my opinion the Hydras should be a support ability and not a way to easily gain map control. Actual static defense should remain in the hands of the comm hence costing TRES (let whips pick up rocks and throw them at marines or give the comm another damaging defense structure).
It is not possible to balance Hydras as actual static defense for both pub and comp play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Long story short I managed to create my first mod.
Here is the video:
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xG48F3TNDUI"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xG48F3TNDUI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Things that could be implemented:
> tracers that go from the Hydras point of view to your cross hair (a bit like the pistol laser)
> secondary fire mode that does something different (like structure damage?)
Downside: at the moment this takes away 1 ability slot (button 3). Maybe the structure menu could be moved away from the ability slots.
So.. What do you guys think? Feedback would be much appreciated.
Comments
I love this idea.
Also, this looks awesome! +1
EDIT: I think they should still dissolve, but START after 1 minute rather than be dead after 1 minute. The current implementation means that you have to gorge immediately (no time for hive defence or clever push) and even then all your ###### is on 40ish%
Also, this looks awesome! +1
EDIT: I think they should still dissolve, but START after 1 minute rather than be dead after 1 minute. The current implementation means that you have to gorge immediately (no time for hive defence or clever push) and even then all your ###### is on 40ish%<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They still fire on their own.
Intended DPS (damage per second) scale:
official Hydra
|--------------<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->|<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->----------|
Focus Hydra - no gorge
|--------<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->|<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->----------------|
Focus Hydra - with gorge (max dps)
|-------------------<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->|<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-----|
Intended DPS (damage per second) scale:
official Hydra
|--------------<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->|<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->----------|
Focus Hydra - no gorge
|--------<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->|<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->----------------|
Focus Hydra - with gorge (max dps)
|-------------------<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->|<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-----|<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like your idea, too.
But I think different damage between a controlled hydra and an automatic hydra makes not much sense because the hydra still shoots the same spikes.
Instead I could image that the Hydra itself is kinda stupid and has a poor aim. So the Hydra needs the brain of the Gorge to be more accurate. Of course, the result will be the same as with different damage but players could see that the hydras miss more often enemies than it does with an assistant Gorge.
What do you think? A different maybe more natural approach but the same results.
A: the gorge is firing something (possibly with just a pheromone trail)
B: that the gorge is in control of the hydra (again possibly with a pheromone trail or some other effect)
and C: there should be an obvious benefit to using this attack versus letting the hydras shoot on their own and simply using spit, or heal.
I'm thinking the last one will be your biggest hurdle, simply because healing the hydras while they are being damaged (and taking the brunt of damage) is so advantageous. Also, by taking over control of the hydras, the gorge will have to put himself out in the open to be able to target enemies.. and the gorge isn't the sturdiest of combatants : /.
All other times, they'll automatically fire, but without as much precision, and a lower ROF.
All other times, they'll automatically fire, but without as much precision, and a lower ROF.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about just tagging enemies with spit? As in, hydras will focus on that target, regardless of others in range. Perhaps with a rate of fire / accuracy increase as suggested.
<!--quoteo(post=1935496:date=May 11 2012, 09:37 PM:name=Hackepeter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hackepeter @ May 11 2012, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935496"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like your idea, too.
But I think different damage between a controlled hydra and an automatic hydra makes not much sense because the hydra still shoots the same spikes.
Instead I could image that the Hydra itself is kinda stupid and has a poor aim. So the Hydra needs the brain of the Gorge to be more accurate. Of course, the result will be the same as with different damage but players could see that the hydras miss more often enemies than it does with an assistant Gorge.
What do you think? A different maybe more natural approach but the same results.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, yes, I was planning to nerf the hit chance and damage to make them as stupid and harmless as they were in the past.
Hydras in combination with a gorge should be deadly for 1 marine though.
<!--quoteo(post=1935982:date=May 14 2012, 12:21 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ May 14 2012, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like this, but I think there needs to be some way to demonstrate to players (both marine and kharaa) that
A: the gorge is firing something (possibly with just a pheromone trail)
B: that the gorge is in control of the hydra (again possibly with a pheromone trail or some other effect)
and C: there should be an obvious benefit to using this attack versus letting the hydras shoot on their own and simply using spit, or heal.
I'm thinking the last one will be your biggest hurdle, simply because healing the hydras while they are being damaged (and taking the brunt of damage) is so advantageous. Also, by taking over control of the hydras, the gorge will have to put himself out in the open to be able to target enemies.. and the gorge isn't the sturdiest of combatants : /.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A: yes, you are right of course.
B: in the current implementation the gorge is in control all the time when selecting 3, Hydras still fire on their own though. I simply use their point of view as a proxy to create a tracer (the green lines). It may be solved by changing the spike of the (focus ability) shot to something visually different
C: the benefit should be firepower. It is in the hands (or claws) of the gorge whether he wants to be more aggressive or defensive. Healing the Hydras won't stop a marine from killing you though. Also they don't necessarily need to be healed all the time when they are free, because it doesn't matter if you lost 1-2 Hydras when you manage to kill the marines(s).
<!--quoteo(post=1936015:date=May 14 2012, 01:57 AM:name=fsfod)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fsfod @ May 14 2012, 01:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you could have the controlled mode be some kinda of spike shotgun mode or splash damage on impact to harass marines hiding behind something<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or a sniper bullet, so that you can head shot marines from range ;).
<!--quoteo(post=1936097:date=May 14 2012, 10:08 AM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ May 14 2012, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about tie them directly to the gorge spit attack; I don't think this needs to be tied to a whole new ability. The spit ball releases a pheromone which tells the hydras to fire at whatever it hits. Would have to some how have the hydra spikes lead and line up with the spit ball though, so the moment it makes contact they also hit the target.
All other times, they'll automatically fire, but without as much precision, and a lower ROF.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought about this too. May be a good solution to save ability slots, but it would delay the hydras shot a lot. Also it would mean that the Hydras fire like a machine gun. I was thinking to make it more like the shotgun shot the lerk used to have. High damage, high energy cost.
<!--quoteo(post=1936164:date=May 14 2012, 04:05 PM:name=Rover)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rover @ May 14 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about just tagging enemies with spit? As in, hydras will focus on that target, regardless of others in range. Perhaps with a rate of fire / accuracy increase as suggested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also a good idea. It would allow the gorge to heal more. The downside is less control.
edit: I will try to release a playable version soon.
My only other idea to yours, maybe the hydras could have automatic "Flick" ability. In addition to the single spike being shot out, could do a shotgun like short range of a few spikes in one release... the animation being like a whip effect. Could be effective on grouped up marines. You can imagine a shower of spikes auto flicking. So placement around a corner at close range could be particularly leathal. While the longer, more accurate gorge controlled hydra attack would have range and power but slow reload.
A gorge could then use the spit / target attack you demonstrated for more accurate, sniper like shooting for getting targets beyond flick range.
How about just tagging enemies with spit? As in, hydras will focus on that target, regardless of others in range. Perhaps with a rate of fire / accuracy increase as suggested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also a good idea. It would allow the gorge to heal more. The downside is less control.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there is one more big advantage with (ab)using the spit for your Hydra Focus: If you don't need to use an additional ability slot it should be possible to implement the mod only server sided without any downsides; the mod could be tested then on some public servers to see how it turns out in a real match, because usually you barely get that kind of feedback for client side mods.
I would really like to test that mod in a real game.
Intended DPS (damage per second) scale:
official Hydra
|--------------<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->|<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->----------|
Focus Hydra - no gorge
|--------<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->|<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->----------------|
Focus Hydra - with gorge (max dps)
|-------------------<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->|<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-----|<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cool mod.
+1 (also because of the cool sliders up there)
I don't think it still fits as a stand alone ability, because of bile bomb being given back to the gorge and the current researchable skill system.
It may still work combined with spit though (spit projectile point of impact being the hydra shot point of impact).
Intended DPS (damage per second) scale:
official Hydra
|--------------<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->|<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->----------|
Focus Hydra - no gorge
|--------<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->|<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->----------------|
Focus Hydra - with gorge (max dps)
|-------------------<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->|<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-----|<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea
Maybe the benefit of targeting them could be that they fire as fast as the "tracker" can, while the attack speed goes back down whenever the gorge is not attacking.
I do like the idea of them being a short range burst damage until focused onto 1 target.