Alien upgrades approach
IronHorse
Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<div class="IPBDescription">Res sinks and addressing Mass tech</div>Okay, so for the better part of a year i have been concerned about Mass Tech/lifeforms, where for example a team of all lerks / all shotguns are far too effective. I know that the design docs mention that rock, paper, scissor mechanics are the solution to this issue so that going all lerks is non effective/suicide and i agree with this approach completely, however the issue of Mass tech can be exaggerated and encouraged by a lack of Pres sinks or ways to earn Pres.
This brings me to an idea i had today : <b>Why not have scalable, cast-able, temporary upgrades which cost Pres?</b>
This is not weapons or abilities costing pres to use, this is upgrades costing pres to use. Marine upgrades cost tres to research just like aliens, but unlike aliens they also require pres to use for the duration of your life.
So an idea thats been tossed around before upgrades became free, was to make upgrades scaled so that the skulk had either free or very cheap upgrades, while an onos had to pay a healthy chunk of pres to get his carapace. This solves the issue of lategame effectiveness of lower lifeforms, while also creating a res sink.
But this wasn't enough in my eyes - i still imagined that lerk ALWAYS going for that cara... so if everyone did that, then thered be no difference / variance in Pres amount across the players / team!! Solving nothing.
<b>So why not make them casted upgrades?</b> It fits the alien theme already considering how cloak, umbra, misting and other casted abilities work.
An example would be you selected your cara upgrade path for free as you do now for that lerk (just an example) but it does not work passively.
You'd press your "use upgrade" button and it would activate. Imagine activating cara for 10 seconds costing 1 pres all for that bombing run you wanted to make? I think this would increase the skill ceiling (knowing when to use upgrades effectively, and managing your resources effectively) and because it's use depends on your playstyle / needs it will create HUGE variance in Pres across the team!
The cost/numbers are easy enough to playtest and figure out, but : Is pressing a button to activate an upgrade (much like how a flashlight is pressed) asking too much? I personally dont think so considering how games like tf2 handle uber and what not.. but i'd like to hear what you think?
The only issue is coming up with a way to select the upgrade(s) that you specifically want casted. Ideas?
TL;DR version:
Make alien upgrades Non-passive, requiring activation for a short time period.
Make alien upgrades cost Pres to use
Make alien upgrades scale to address late game effectiveness of lesser life forms
This brings me to an idea i had today : <b>Why not have scalable, cast-able, temporary upgrades which cost Pres?</b>
This is not weapons or abilities costing pres to use, this is upgrades costing pres to use. Marine upgrades cost tres to research just like aliens, but unlike aliens they also require pres to use for the duration of your life.
So an idea thats been tossed around before upgrades became free, was to make upgrades scaled so that the skulk had either free or very cheap upgrades, while an onos had to pay a healthy chunk of pres to get his carapace. This solves the issue of lategame effectiveness of lower lifeforms, while also creating a res sink.
But this wasn't enough in my eyes - i still imagined that lerk ALWAYS going for that cara... so if everyone did that, then thered be no difference / variance in Pres amount across the players / team!! Solving nothing.
<b>So why not make them casted upgrades?</b> It fits the alien theme already considering how cloak, umbra, misting and other casted abilities work.
An example would be you selected your cara upgrade path for free as you do now for that lerk (just an example) but it does not work passively.
You'd press your "use upgrade" button and it would activate. Imagine activating cara for 10 seconds costing 1 pres all for that bombing run you wanted to make? I think this would increase the skill ceiling (knowing when to use upgrades effectively, and managing your resources effectively) and because it's use depends on your playstyle / needs it will create HUGE variance in Pres across the team!
The cost/numbers are easy enough to playtest and figure out, but : Is pressing a button to activate an upgrade (much like how a flashlight is pressed) asking too much? I personally dont think so considering how games like tf2 handle uber and what not.. but i'd like to hear what you think?
The only issue is coming up with a way to select the upgrade(s) that you specifically want casted. Ideas?
TL;DR version:
Make alien upgrades Non-passive, requiring activation for a short time period.
Make alien upgrades cost Pres to use
Make alien upgrades scale to address late game effectiveness of lesser life forms
Comments
With regards to onos massing, that is a clear problem, and honestly stems from the fact that there is no singular marine unit that can match an onos 1v1. Clearly you want to balance the game for more team oriented play, but if it takes a team of 3 to 4 marines to beat one onos, how is a team of 6 supposed to be 4 or 5?
With regards to upgrades being basically rent able, i think that would just be extremely frustrating. Think of it on the other side, you time your carapace perfectly as you fly in and bomb the base, but your upgrade only lasts 10 seconds so as your flying out you loose your carapace and get one shotted by a shotgun. I think thats just a bad idea overall, the upgrades are not what is making lifeforms overpowered, its the lifeform itself. If a onos or fade is coming out too soon, then its cost should be looked at. Personally i think fade is fine, its the second hive (or augmentation) that happens to soon. Regarding onos yea its pretty broken, but TBH there is no counter for onos currently, so its hard to comment.
Is it just me that can singe handedly with a jetpack make an ono run away to the point that he has to trick me into running into him as he camos because I don't know about the ability? I'm not pro at all.
*EDIT*
I am not in favour for this temporary spent res stuff. Marines can do stuff without having a lot of personal resources because the way things are prices where aliens their hard earnes pRes can dissappear really quickly if they are not careful. I mean jetpacks only costs 10 pRes. Something that will replenish itself by the time your respawn again. And the standard machine gun with weapons lvl 3 researched isn't that bad for damage.
A very similar solution to this is to have upgrades/abilities (certain abilities) cost PRES to have. Put the cost upfront. Similar end result, but doesn't punish player for using abilities.
You can then have things like the Onos fully upgraded with all his abilities costing over 100 PRES (player buys onos, saves up and later buy abilities), or skulks/gorges spending pres throughout the game. Then its a matter of properly pricing these abilities and making them worthwhile.
I like your idea of activating passive upgrades as well, as long as I can bind it to a hotkey.
A very similar solution to this is to have upgrades/abilities (certain abilities) cost PRES to have. Put the cost upfront. Similar end result, but doesn't punish player for using abilities.
You can then have things like the Onos fully upgraded with all his abilities costing over 100 PRES (player buys onos, saves up and later buy abilities), or skulks/gorges spending pres throughout the game. Then its a matter of properly pricing these abilities and making them worthwhile.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"This is not weapons or abilities costing pres to use, this is upgrades costing pres to use. Marine upgrades cost tres to research just like aliens, but unlike aliens they also require pres to use for the duration of your life. "
Also, your example doesnt work, because who wouldnt fully upgrade their onos before leaving? Just like my post says, i dont see lerk players NOT choosing carapace. And if everyone will always ensure they are properly upgraded, then you need to find another method to upset the variance of pres across the team.
In short: doing that would mean that you have improved lifeform scarcity but have not discouraged the frequency of mass tech from occurring
<!--quoteo(post=1935353:date=May 10 2012, 09:10 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ May 10 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seems like an overly complicated solution for a problem that shouldnt exist. Mass lerks will get rolled if performance and hit detection improve, Mass fades/onos is the real problem, and really the issue comes down to how the marines are able to fight those lifeforms individually (and en mass).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagree. On both points. I don't consider activation of an upgrade like an Uber to be complicated whatsoever, especially when so many other things are "casted" already for aliens.
I also believe that creating weapons/tools/means to fight 10 Oni does not "<b>FIX</b>" Mass Tech, it would merely be a work around - the issue is that a strategy of 10 Oni ever have a chance of success. Remove that chance, as hugh has stated, by making large sacrifices early and mid game to accomplish such a feat that your team dies trying or is at the brink of death. My idea of a res sink is simply to shake up the chances that mass effect can occur while also adding lifeform scarcity (since you are spending pres in other places besides life forms) it doesnt actually fix the source of the problem as i stated originally. (which is timings and resource model numbers etc) But should <b>help</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=1935353:date=May 10 2012, 09:10 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ May 10 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Think of it on the other side, you time your carapace perfectly as you fly in and bomb the base, but your upgrade only lasts 10 seconds so as your flying out you loose your carapace and get one shotted by a shotgun. I think thats just a bad idea overall, the upgrades are not what is making lifeforms overpowered, its the lifeform itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) I think that this is a GREAT scenario, like i said, <b>it raises the skill ceiling.</b>If you didnt activate it again when you saw your enemy, thats your reaction time/judgement failing you. <b>You must manage your res usage just like a good fade manages his energy consumption.</b>
2) I never said that upgrades or lifeforms are overpowered? I dont believe this is the case. (regen for fade might be a tad much still)
<!--quoteo(post=1935408:date=May 11 2012, 04:51 AM:name=hapro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hapro @ May 11 2012, 04:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While it may (or may not) provide a solution, it doesn't sound fun to me. People are always reluctant to use consumables in game (see: 99 potions) if they think there's a chance they can survive without one, and by the time they realize they need to use one, it's typically already too late to save them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is definitely the best argument against this as i cant quantify/measure something as subjective as "fun". The only counter argument i could have is:
<b>What lerk wouldnt use his carapace</b>, once again? And there are only going to be the one or two upgrades unlike the 99 potions in your inventory (a solution to "selecting which upgrade to activate" could be to only choose one out of your 3 possible upgrades that are activated manually, while the other two are passive but with less effectiveness.) Like i said, think of it more like Uber - you change your playstyle around casting it.
Thanks for the feedback guys
As an alternative idea, why not let upgrades like cara essentially get "shot off" and force you to re-evolve them (for pres)? I'm not sure how exactly it would work for most other upgrades, however.
Also, wouldnt hitting a key mid battle and having it "run outa juice" be exactly the same as managing your energy for blink or spores for lerk??
To clarify, would you have a shortcut key for every upgrade? What about when you have four hives?
I just really dislike the idea of spending pres mid-battle. I'm not against this idea nearly as much as the suggestion for abilities (bilebomb, etc) costing pres, but I'm still not a fan.
Problem is this is not energy you're talking about, it's pres; a very limited resource which is only partially controlled by the player in the first place. Having players drain their pres on the fly for a one-time limited use ability has and always will be a bad idea that's overly complicated for the given situation.
As for having upgrade costs scale, that will either have players simply not go higher lifeform until they have all the required resources, or it won't matter at all as player's will still flood the game with x lifeform because upgrades can be worked around (eg. Onos doesn't need Carapace unless they're planning on soaking up a ton of damage, thus they can easily do without it).
The only lifeform I could see something like <b>perma</b>-upgrades working on is the Gorge, and that's simply because the Gorge has no real spot in the game right now. Could easily turn it into a customizable lifeform.
This is me lol. I do like the idea of upgrades costing more for certain lifeforms. Skulk being free then from up from Gorge > Lerk > Fade > Onos.
I believe the massing of lifeforms comes more from the lack of Pres sinks.
In NS1 (as you know)at least 3 players HAD to gorge for some reason (now i am speaking competitively). Rt gorge, chamber gorge, and hive gorge. 1 gorge couldn't drop all 3 chambers in time to be useful immediately so you had the rt gorge drop on also. Not to mention a lerk was required for early harass and spores. So you have 4 out of the 6 players doing something with their res and that is only 2 rts. Another rt helps, so you have your rt late fade with your all star fade going straight for it. The only potential for an Oni is the chamber gorge or the rt fade that saves it if they are doing well enough.
There were built in res sinks that benefited the team, but were required. The alien comm soaks up a lot of these now with no trade off.
Marines in NS1 were like fire ants. 1 would hurt but do no real damage. A swarm could be deadly. While aliens were like tigers. The young ones were trouble easily dealt with, but full grown a single one could ruin your day. They removed the cork on lifeforms with the alien comm but didn't add anything to replace it and kept the values of each alien lifeform being a power house. One has to be changed.
This is another element that frustrates me and it seems the devs are confused. Stubbornly sticking to certain mechanics or roles without seeing how much they hurt the game. The solution is out there but i think it will take years to flesh out, but that is what these forums are for hehe free love slave labor.
^