Whip bombard balance
elodea
Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Taking from SabaHell's advice, instead of simply pointing out how broken bombard damage is atm, here are some numbers i've run for a balanced whip bombard.
<u><b>Context</b></u>
-Standard 8-9 minute 4 whip build. conservative 3 harvestor only build with no tech tradeoffs which goes as follows
1) expand 2 rt's, save 40 res and hive energy and place 4 whips.
3) Start misting
4) Get upgrade of choice at around 4:00. 20 + 10 + 10
5) Normal augmentation timing 5:50.
6) 2nd upgrade if you havn't lost rt's.
7) Around 8 minutes you should have 40 res exactly as whips finish maturing
8) Sneak cyst to marine base using mists.
- Alien combined attack (fades are on field) with whips present
- 20-25 seconds for 1 marine to kill mature whip with rifle
- No ARC. Hard counter and different marine tech path. Mostly irrelevant to consider.
<u><b>Goals</b></u>
1) Prevent 1 shot IP's. Maintain 1 shot sentry and ability to counter sentry farm. Damage limits are thus (2160/4)=540 < x < (2750/4)=687.5.
2) Reduce volatility and ability to insta gib whole bases
3) Maintain reasonable times on CC, RT, and AA.
<u><b>Proposal</b></u>
Bombard Damage: 1200 -> 540
Bombard Radius: 8 -> 6
Bombard ROF: 6 -> 5.4
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/7sfmI.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Link to sheet if you want to play with the numbers - <a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5095264/whip%20proposal.xlsx" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5095264/whip%20proposal.xlsx</a>
If you're not currently aware of the ridiculous state of whip bombard, here is a video to show what i mean. I highly suggest trying to do the 4 whip build yourself in game as well - its not hard to execute and is more fighting the UI than anything.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qT3HjmUpuro"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/qT3HjmUpuro" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
<u><b>Context</b></u>
-Standard 8-9 minute 4 whip build. conservative 3 harvestor only build with no tech tradeoffs which goes as follows
1) expand 2 rt's, save 40 res and hive energy and place 4 whips.
3) Start misting
4) Get upgrade of choice at around 4:00. 20 + 10 + 10
5) Normal augmentation timing 5:50.
6) 2nd upgrade if you havn't lost rt's.
7) Around 8 minutes you should have 40 res exactly as whips finish maturing
8) Sneak cyst to marine base using mists.
- Alien combined attack (fades are on field) with whips present
- 20-25 seconds for 1 marine to kill mature whip with rifle
- No ARC. Hard counter and different marine tech path. Mostly irrelevant to consider.
<u><b>Goals</b></u>
1) Prevent 1 shot IP's. Maintain 1 shot sentry and ability to counter sentry farm. Damage limits are thus (2160/4)=540 < x < (2750/4)=687.5.
2) Reduce volatility and ability to insta gib whole bases
3) Maintain reasonable times on CC, RT, and AA.
<u><b>Proposal</b></u>
Bombard Damage: 1200 -> 540
Bombard Radius: 8 -> 6
Bombard ROF: 6 -> 5.4
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/7sfmI.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Link to sheet if you want to play with the numbers - <a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5095264/whip%20proposal.xlsx" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5095264/whip%20proposal.xlsx</a>
If you're not currently aware of the ridiculous state of whip bombard, here is a video to show what i mean. I highly suggest trying to do the 4 whip build yourself in game as well - its not hard to execute and is more fighting the UI than anything.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qT3HjmUpuro"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/qT3HjmUpuro" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Comments
What do you think happens if 4 ARCs stay up in the Aliens base for that long and they don't even require cysts. And you want to cut the damage of Bombard by over half? It just seems like an overreaction to me - I honestly don't see how this rush could be so strong unless the Marines are in a disadvantageous position already in which case they have already lost.
Do you have any videos of a Live Rush vs. an actual team?
What do you think happens if 4 ARCs stay up in the Aliens base for that long and they don't even require cysts. And you want to cut the damage of Bombard by over half? It just seems like an overreaction to me - I honestly don't see how this rush could be so strong unless the Marines are in a disadvantageous position already in which case they have already lost.
Do you have any videos of a Live Rush vs. an actual team?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you not think being able to completely level a marine base in under 25 seconds, let alone completely disable them in under 10 seconds is an issue? I was pretty sure the video speaks for itself. Marine builds run tight ships already especially with the alien timings as fast as they are. Being able to lose an IP, an AA etc that fast is crippling. Losing your CC in 8 shots is just ludicrous as much as it is fun to be the one controlling the whips.
Again, keep in mind the context of this happening at around 9 minutes with the entire alien team attacking as well. If you are balancing around whole team vs whole team engagement, the whips are the deciding factor. If marines attack whips/cysts, your team kills theirs. If they attack your team, your whips kill their base. Even without your team supporting the attack, the damage done is crippling enough to push back marine timings to the stoneage.
Arcs are a different issue both in terms of relative timings, cost, and alot of other variables. I specifically didn't want to look at whip bombard balance as a parity function of ARC numbers.
Further, the minimum requirement to execute the build is 3 harvestors. This cedes alot of map control. If the marines wern't in a disadvantageous position already, they definately are after a whip attack. Again, i recommend you try doing the build yourself. Sure i could try to record a fair game live but the chances of that happening with basically no playable australian servers is slim.
Mature whip rush doesn't require the aliens to give up much other tech. As Elodea pointed out aliens are able to get augmentation and 4 mature whips in 8-9 minutes. This will make fades very powerful allowing aliens to have effective anti player players and anti building AI units. Marines can't do this in 8-9 minutes. No matter how well you play it takes longer (maybe about 15 minutes) to get 2-4 ARCs and level 2 upgrades which i think are equivalent to fade with augmentation.
However i'm not sure this issue should be fixed by nerfing mature whips. Nerfing them might make mature whip rush totally pointless strategy. I think the biggest problem here is the maturity system. Maturity only slows aliens down but it doesn't force aliens to choose between any tech, buildings or units. <b>Aliens can get mature hive and mature whips without any tradeoffs while marines need to choose between upgrades or ARCs. </b> This makes me wonder why do we need maturity and energy in a game that is based on resources. These artificial gameplay mechanisms make balancing and tuning the game such a pain. :(
Here's a simplification to illustrate the issue:
It costs roughly 180 TRES for marines to get lvl2 upgrades and 4 ARCs which is roughly equivalent to aliens getting augmentation and 4 mature whips which costs about 105 TRES.
40 res spent on a non offensive, non present structure pre augmentation? I don't know what ideal situation games these whip rushes are taking place in, but that would mean a major delay to both upgrades and augmentations.
40 res spent on a non offensive, non present structure pre augmentation? I don't know what ideal situation games these whip rushes are taking place in, but that would mean a major delay to both upgrades and augmentations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's still less than one ARC, Robo and Robo upg.
Its only really comparable to arcs if the marines are indeed rushing arcs, which is an extremely risky strategy. One which usually ends in failure I might add.
I think your ideal case is missing something that make it fail <b>usually</b> in a real match. "Usually" because it sure can happen. It is a viable tactic. But not an imbalanced one. And one additional note: If the marines aren't able to kill the cysts before they spread enough infestation AND on top of this aren't able to see the incoming whips and kill them, they deserve to lose.
Bombard Whips. . . The clunkiest and most AI broken unit at the Khammaders disposal and you want me to base a strategy on?
No, sir. . .
You are in fact doing me a great disfavor by even suggesting such a thing
<a href="http://tinypic.com/r/350p737/6" target="_blank">See for yourself how busted they are</a>
The video doesn't even show all their failures that I found in a recent sandbox game and that's well before we discuss someone actually getting cysts up to my base
And arcs can sit on the other side of the wall and attack, with a larger splash. You'll have to show me this tactic getting a win in a real game Elodea, one where the teams were equally matched(eg, aliens will have lost extractors). 4 whips with bombard is 80 res and nearly ten minutes of preparation in which anything can go wrong, let alone getting the cysts into the base. It seems both easily scouted and countered.
<!--quoteo(post=1935113:date=May 11 2012, 12:22 AM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ May 11 2012, 12:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u><b>elodea:</b></u>
Bombard Whips. . . The clunkiest and most AI broken unit at the Khammaders disposal and you want me to base a strategy on?
No, sir. . .
You are in fact doing me a great disfavor by even suggesting such a thing
<a href="http://tinypic.com/r/350p737/6" target="_blank">See for yourself how busted they are</a>
The video doesn't even show all their failures that I found in a recent sandbox game and that's well before we discuss someone actually getting cysts up to my base<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's another video of how bad Whips are (and have been for a long time now).
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fuyQ9fd1Z2c"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fuyQ9fd1Z2c" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
At the time when I recorded this I thought it was something to do with the Bombard AI, but I've now noticed that it even happens with non bombard ready whips. You can stand beside them like you see with the arcs above and they seemingly only hit at random, mostly missing their swings if not just ignoring you altogether.
I think your ideal case is missing something that make it fail <b>usually</b> in a real match. "Usually" because it sure can happen. It is a viable tactic. But not an imbalanced one. And one additional note: If the marines aren't able to kill the cysts before they spread enough infestation AND on top of this aren't able to see the incoming whips and kill them, they deserve to lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We don't see this tactic because people are either mostly stuck in the traditional paradigm of alien commanding or arn't by any means RTS players. Whips are percieved as useless simply because they are clunky and require too much effort (they are, but this shouldn't affect a judgement about how powerful they are when used correctly). I'm pretty sure its safe to say that the Alien Khamm is the least explored and the least developed role from the perspective of metagame and strategy. You only have to look at the next post from maximum squid to see this... 'inexperience' :s. The whip bombard changes were implemented only this build, <b>9 days ago</b>. I think its more telling that people's understanding of alien commander build options and potential havn't yet developed fully than that the strategy is ineffective, irrelevant etc.
Again, instead of all this theory crafting i highly suggest you try the build with the intention of trying to make it work and i think you'll see what i mean by it not being that hard to succeed. You spam cysts everywhere in their base so that they really can't get rid of the infestation quickly, you move them in when they're off attacking somewhere else, you cyst through places where they arn't present etc. My point also extends -> even if you failed to outright win the game with your 4 whips you do so much damage that it sets the marines back very far for no real tech or timing costs of your own.
<!--quoteo(post=1935124:date=May 11 2012, 12:41 AM:name=hapro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hapro @ May 11 2012, 12:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a lot harder to get whips to a base than it is to get arcs to a base, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its actually not. Whips are faster than arcs. With spy drifters, and much slower, deliberate marine mobility its very easy to quickly sneak cyst paths through areas with mist.
<!--quoteo(post=1935126:date=May 11 2012, 12:45 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ May 11 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And arcs can sit on the other side of the wall and attack, with a larger splash. You'll have to show me this tactic getting a win in a real game Elodea, one where the teams were equally matched(eg, aliens will have lost extractors). 4 whips with bombard is 80 res and nearly ten minutes of preparation in which anything can go wrong, let alone getting the cysts into the base. It seems both easily scouted and countered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you guys are all missing the point. You don't spend 80 res on the whips all at once, and as i've shown there are no tech tradeoffs whatsoever even with a very conservative 3 harvestors. Zeikko has pointed out the timing issues. I picked 4 whips for this very reason, not 5 and not 3. This is as much as the system can bear. The point also isn't about how easy it is for the tactic to be scouted or countered, its about how extremely fast those whips will destroy a base <b>if they get in</b>. Its just simply bad game mechanics if a team has the ability to use super weapon option x that does incredible ammounts of damage regardless of scouting variables. It makes for volatile gameplay which i am trying to constructively point out and address. I should remind you that a mature whip is also just about as tank as an onos.
I've been trying out this strategy in secret since whips were buffed and its clear to me that the damage is so high that 'equally skilled' doesn't even come into the equation. Its the same as the lerk rush of old.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's another video of how bad Whips are (and have been for a long time now).
At the time when I recorded this I thought it was something to do with the Bombard AI, but I've now noticed that it even happens with non bombard ready whips. You can stand beside them like you see with the arcs above and they seemingly only hit at random, mostly missing their swings if not just ignoring you altogether.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of these problems are obvious and are hopefully going to be fixed in future iterations. Don't you think its a bit silly to say its ok that unit x does over 9000 damage because its targeting AI is so poorly written that it only has a 0.1% chance to work properly therefore its effective dps is only 9?
I'm not arguing that they are clunky and i absolutely agree that using them is more fighting the UI than anything. The point is that they are incredibly strong when you know the build specific quirks and are able to bypass all that clunky UI and responsiveness to use their full potential. I mean, i don't think its a good idea to balance around things being unresponsive and badly implemented in terms of the UI.
<!--quoteo(post=1935154:date=May 11 2012, 02:38 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ May 11 2012, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you guys are all missing the point. You don't spend 80 res on the whips all at once, and as i've shown there are no tech tradeoffs whatsoever even with a very conservative 3 harvestors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You will not have a second hive to make use of the second upgrade, nor any of the active tech structures (shade,crag,shift), and again- you are assuming total map domination anyway and not losing any cysts or harvesters.
3 harvesters is not very conservative in a game against good marines on this build. Yes this comes down a lot to the currently low HP of them, but I think the long term design goal would be so that Aliens can't so easily secure totally untouchable resource domination as they have in the past, even if the current solution for that isn't here to stay.
<!--quoteo(post=1935154:date=May 11 2012, 02:38 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ May 11 2012, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been trying out this strategy in secret since whips were buffed and its clear to me that the damage is so high that 'equally skilled' doesn't even come into the equation. Its the same as the lerk rush of old.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main problem with the lerk rush was that there was no true way to counteract it, it came much faster than this whip rush, with no forewarning and truly had no dent upon the alien team res. You can delay if not entirely disable this Whip rush from occurring as marines without changing your own overall tech route too much as pushing harvesters will still be vital, for not only the cost of the Bombard ready whips but the amount of extra cysts that will need to be spammed for it to be effective. And as mentioned before, you can know what is going to happen minutes in advance with a scan into the alien base.
<!--quoteo(post=1935154:date=May 11 2012, 02:38 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ May 11 2012, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The point also isn't about how easy it is for the tactic to be scouted or countered,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see how you can brush this off as an unimportant factor.
<!--quoteo(post=1935154:date=May 11 2012, 02:38 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ May 11 2012, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I should remind you that a mature whip is also just about as tank as an onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then shoot the cysts.
<!--quoteo(post=1935154:date=May 11 2012, 02:38 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ May 11 2012, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, whats your point really? All of these problems are obvious and are hopefully going to be fixed in future iterations. Don't you think its a bit silly to say its ok that unit x does over 9000 damage because its targeting AI is so poorly written that it only has a 0.1% chance to work properly therefore its effective dps is only 9?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That part of the reply with the video was just responding to that guy, not really related to the discussion at hand.
Really? :p
1 normal whip does 25dps
1 mature whip does 200dps, twice the hp, and with a certain ammount of mature whips you completely destroy marine bases with just the alpha damage alone.
You don't exactly need 8 whips to protect an area from grenades either :o?
<!--QuoteBegin-Fluidcore+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluidcore)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The point is that you spend 80 res on whips that could have been spent on upgrades and other structures. It can be easily scouted and countered: if your team non-upgraded team can't keep the upgraded marines away then you will lose before your strategy bear fruit. High risk, high reward. Best way to try it out against would be during gathers, where people more or less play as a team at least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would very much like to test this in pcw's! Obviously the situation in aus is such that that isn't going to happen for months unless we play with lags or whatever which is why i've kinda posted this here so that people do actually start trying this stuff.
Again, there really are no tech tradeoffs to spending that 80 res (besides 2nd upgrade timing i guess. Thanks Arkanti for pointing that out). I was surprised myself when i was trying to figure out a build. You get your augment on time, and your cara about 4 minutes or so just in time for fades. Only 2 rt expands and no upgrades pre 4 minutes isn't that high risk...
1 normal whip does 25dps
1 mature whip does 200dps, twice the hp, and with a certain ammount of mature whips you completely destroy marine bases with just the alpha damage alone.
You don't exactly need 8 whips to protect an area from grenades either :o?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if i have the 80 res to spend on whips then i certainly have more than 1 area to cover. it's entirely easy to negate a couple whips with a GL rush.
Ok i need to stop chain posting but.... Last point i want to really address that Arkanti brought up as well - The scouting and cyst chaining part is only denied if the marines have total map domination and control and sight over all approaches. You can get whips and cysts across the map quicker than you think with mist.
You get cysts in by being smart about it and having map awareness... Use your drifters to spy properly. Marines can't be everywhere at once and if they are given equally skilled teams its easy to pick out weak points with team co-ordination. Prevent marines from killing cysts in their base by simply spamming more and misting them. The more dps they spend killing cysts, the less dps there is going onto your team. You guys are forgetting this is kind of an all in timing attack so to speak. We can theory craft, but yea in practice i would think its kinda hard to kill all the cysts with skulks and fades flying around while whips are killing your buildings incredibly quick as shown in the video.
Again, scouting i feel is not that relevant because the situation you want to balance is whips already in a marine base. Sure it might be OK for competitive games where scouting is done more and people have a better understanding of timings and counters etc., but is it ok for your average pub game? I dont think its proper to say whip damage is anywhere in a right place atm simply because it 'can be scouted'. Anything can be countered with perfect information but is it healthy for the game? Lets say Onos smash did 1200 damage and killed buildings fast. Marines however have augmented motion tracking which shows when Onoses are evolving etc. Is this balanced? Is this fun/good game design?
Lets say hypothetically that all teams started using the whip build. Marine teams will be aware of this dominant strategy and scout/counter it as necessary by going robo first etc. What you get then is an uninteresting game state where decisions are centered around hard counters and dominant strategies.
*edit*
<!--QuoteBegin-DJpenguin+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJpenguin)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if i have the 80 res to spend on whips then i certainly have more than 1 area to cover. it's entirely easy to negate a couple whips with a GL rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gl rushes come in groups and through one approach. You have 3 rt's so only 2 points of approach. Thus you only really need 1 whip (why 8? o.0). Perhaps think about it like this - when they gl rush before 8 minutes, you have 4 whips ready to move and deal with the problem. Post 8 minutes when whips are matured and upgraded, if they grenade launcher rush, you only need 1 whip to defend the hive and you send the rest to their now empty base. Whip grenade whacking doesn't exactly stack, and you don't have alot to defend with only 3 rt's.
Again, keep in mind the context of this happening at around 9 minutes with the entire alien team attacking as well. If you are balancing around whole team vs whole team engagement, the whips are the deciding factor. If marines attack whips/cysts, your team kills theirs. If they attack your team, your whips kill their base. Even without your team supporting the attack, the damage done is crippling enough to push back marine timings to the stoneage.
Arcs are a different issue both in terms of relative timings, cost, and alot of other variables. I specifically didn't want to look at whip bombard balance as a parity function of ARC numbers.
Further, the minimum requirement to execute the build is 3 harvestors. This cedes alot of map control. If the marines wern't in a disadvantageous position already, they definately are after a whip attack. Again, i recommend you try doing the build yourself. Sure i could try to record a fair game live but the chances of that happening with basically no playable australian servers is slim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha sorry, when I watched the video I had a few tabs open my comments were in regards to the balanced bombard segment, after looking at it again I can see the Rush looks pretty decent.
I'll try it in some live games.
But in extend, thank you for your detailed posts and work on that topic. You should definitely bring this thread back up, when the problem is actually happening.
maybe o.0 haha. i dont exactly remember :(. Whoever was doing it, was it super effective? o.0
Now, if you can show me a game where you used this tactic to win before the 15min mark or the first onos appearing, I'd concede the point. Otherwise, whip rushing needs a serious buff rather than a nerf.
Haha, a few buildings went down but it didn't win you the match. Perhaps it was another one of the Mr guys.