Early Mass Onos - Problematic
Brackhar
Santa Monica Join Date: 2003-10-26 Member: 22004Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Onos
Santa Monica Join Date: 2003-10-26 Member: 22004Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Onos
While there's a lot of discussion going on about various different things in this build, I wanted to raise some visibility on a long term issue that has come from the de-linking of life forms from hives. This strategy doesn't come up often in pug games because it's not "fun," but I do worry that it is potentially uncounterable in the current build. The core of the idea is pretty simple - have three+ aliens on your team that never spend any res. Then, once all of them hit 75 res, get them to go Onos with a fourth or fifth going gorge as backup support. Given a reasonable back and forth game they might be able to pull this off as early as the 10 or 11 minute mark, leaving the marines likely with weapons 1 and maybe armor 2. This little congo line rushing a base is basically unstoppable at that tech level.
What are the community's thoughts on this? I really worry that, should this strategy be popularized, it'll effectively put a cap on the potential for the game. This problem previously was handled by having the hive restriction on Onos, thus allowing Marines to prevent the execution of the strat by effectively controlling territory. However, now with the alien's ability to go Onos at 1 hive and also get their second weapon executing this strategy is only a matter of when, not if.
What are the community's thoughts on this? I really worry that, should this strategy be popularized, it'll effectively put a cap on the potential for the game. This problem previously was handled by having the hive restriction on Onos, thus allowing Marines to prevent the execution of the strat by effectively controlling territory. However, now with the alien's ability to go Onos at 1 hive and also get their second weapon executing this strategy is only a matter of when, not if.
Comments
the onos shouldn't be weaker, just lessened in numbers in the early-mid game.
We've been over this in various threads really, and most players agree:
- The onos comes out too early
- Mass higher lifeforms are a problem
The onos, unlike the fade and lerk relies less on augmentation to be a formidable opponent. As a result, they should probably consider making the base onos weaker, requiring tech, maturation or a second hive to bring him to full strenght. (I've suggested a 'young onos' for early game, smaller model with less hp and armour, only with the proper tech or second hive or whatever does he become 'mature'.)
They're lowering the starting p.res to 10 most likely, that should delay the onos for a couple extra minutes in most games (buys marines crucial time), though it doesn't address the problem of mass onos. (much harder to address if UWE insists on holding on to the current resource model) They COULD consider putting a cap on the onos based on the amount of hives, i.e at 1 hive a team could only have 1 onos. But that's definitely not an ideal solution either.
Pub game
Your players save res by staying skulk until the +- 10 minute mark. The marine team aimlessly expands as they always do taking as much res as possible. The aliens will put up a fight to begin with, but skulks will rapidly become obsolete. Aliens will be unable to mount meaningful offensives against marine res points, meaning at least level 2 armour and weapons by +- 7 minutes (very easy in new patch). The alien team get their 3 to 4 Onos out with only carapace, against either level 3 armour or level 3 weapons. Because its a pub aliens are unlikely to be able to perfectly coordinate their Onos, though they will still be effective. However, 1 hive onos against properly teched marines just get utterly slaughtered. They aren't enough to turn the game at this point.
If you are able to hold more than 3 res points or take a second hive when 3+ of your players are saving to Onos, the marine team was just not good enough.
Competetive game
Without lerks and fades the alien team is rushed within 6 minutes and loses their only hive. The end.
I'm in a rush so you get less than 2 cents.
I decided to do a little stat keeping on the competitive games today since the game seems to be balanced around that. The earliest an Onos ever saw the field was 10:02, and that was in a game where Marines were unable to put pressure on, or kill, any Alien RTs. Aliens had 5 RTs by that point. The average timing for an Onos assuming 3-4~ RT was around 12:00-16:00. If Marines were able to put pressure on Alien RTs and/or kill them off (very easy this build) then Onos were sometimes delayed an upwards of 20 minutes or not seen at all.
Another thing we need to keep into account when discussing how truly short the early game in NS 2 is, is that the shorter the early game the less room for errors there will also be. I.e there's only a small timeframe in which both sides (but mainly marines, let's be honest) have to act and act right to make sure it's not GG by the 10 minute mark. This just makes gameplay unenjoyable imo, a rush against the clock where the only true focus should be killing/ninjaing extractors all over the map (in a way, it forces marines to play like aliens). (rather than steadily pushing map control)
I'd say NS gameplay beyond the early game stage currently is incredibly predictable, incredibly cheesy, and just generally unenjoyable (even when you're on the winning side of things).
The chart doesn't account for time spent on RTs previous to x number of RTs. For example when you read 4 RTs on that chart, it doesn't account for time spent at 1, 2, or 3 RTs. This build especially where Alien RTs are so easy to kill, there's no reason Marines shouldn't be playing aggressively and taking down the RTs early. We saw two examples today of Aliens being res locked and losing the game because of RTs being killed (420 vs Transcend Game #2, 420 vs All-In Game #3).
Also I only recall there being one game where a Skulk saved up to 90-100 Res first (it was omegaweapon I believe), and that wasn't the game I was referring to where one popped out at 10 minutes.
Its not like its ever easier to hold RTs in comp matches compared to pub tho.
And this is why timings should be based around the earliest possible-wait-wait... why are we having this discussion again? There are TWO topics just like this one on the front visible page of general discussion? whew close one..
Its not like its ever easier to hold RTs in comp matches compared to pub tho.
And this is why timings should be based around the earliest possible-wait-wait... why are we having this discussion again? There are TWO topics just like this one on the front visible page of general discussion? whew close one..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably because it's the hot balance topic.