Not really if anything I'm biased in favour of aliens - my favourite side.
Do you want to explain how my comments are biased? Fact is you don't see marines flying through alien bases in a matter of seconds, dropping 3 gls, then flying back, another 3 gls, rinse and repeat.
<!--quoteo(post=1927690:date=Apr 20 2012, 03:27 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Apr 20 2012, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And similarly, a marine can kill a lerk in under two seconds. It takes only 19 rifle bullets to kill a lerk with no cara. 25 with cara. Or 10 pistol shots with no cara, and something like 13 with cara. Alternatively you can shoot once point blank with the shotgun.
When they sweep past a room, it's a bit hard to kill them with one magazine, but two marines shouldn't have any problems against one lerk. You shouldn't be running off alone anyways. If you get meds / nano from comm, lerk has no chance against you one on one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT
And good positioning also helps alot. I am not a bad Lerk but this patch as soon as you even glide 0,5s you are dead. Skie and Coldddeath proved it today alot of times. It worked everything, mine traps > dead, 2 good players aiming -> dead, good positioning -> dead and surprise escaperoute trap -> dead.
To the OP, Lerk DMG is already light (4 dmg remove 1 armor) and the precision is 0. You can shoot spikes at s marine 3m away (crosshair centered on chest) and still miss him even when both of you don't move. But I agree that the Lerk is very powerfull. The combination of the corrode DMG from BB and the high light DMG from spikes is so powerfull that you can BB a group of 4 marines several times and then kill all with only 20 spikes (around 2s).
A base of sentrys is no problem for a Lerk, his gas reduces the RoF from the sentrys to 2 shots per second. Get in gas get out, get in and BB. Repeat.
<!--quoteo(post=1927831:date=Apr 20 2012, 02:27 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 20 2012, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A base of sentrys is no problem for a Lerk, his gas reduces the RoF from the sentrys to 2 shots per second. Get in gas get out, get in and BB. Repeat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait, what?
Gas (spores) effects the rate of fire for sentries? When did this happen?
Edit: Just looked throught the Wiki and I guess it does effect sentries but apparently not RoF.
Spore Function: Creates a lingering cloud which inflicts health-only damage on players in area of effect; cloud obstructs player vision and reduces Sentry accuracy.
remember there is a ~200-250 ms lag from what you're seeing to what's actually happening on the server. That means shooting right at a lerk and getting the hit effect doesn't actually translate to you hitting the lerk, you have to lead it by quite a bit if it's going full speed. If you see a lerk on the ground, aim for the top half so that when it tries to fly up, all the bullets will catch it. otherwise a quick reacting lerk won't die even if you shoot 30 bullets into it while it's sitting there.
invTempestJoin Date: 2003-03-02Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1927842:date=Apr 20 2012, 03:03 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Apr 20 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->remember there is a ~200-250 ms lag from what you're seeing to what's actually happening on the server. That means shooting right at a lerk and getting the hit effect doesn't actually translate to you hitting the lerk, you have to lead it by quite a bit if it's going full speed. If you see a lerk on the ground, aim for the top half so that when it tries to fly up, all the bullets will catch it. otherwise a quick reacting lerk won't die even if you shoot 30 bullets into it while it's sitting there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not true and has been quoted many times but in reality you don't have to "lead" anything. You shoot where they are on your screen and you will (for the most part) get decent hit registration. When the client shoots the server rolls back to the same point in time to see if they are actually hitting or not. If there was a 200-250 ms delay no one would be playing.
On to the lerk being OP - it is pretty much the only class that has some sort of skill left in the game. The fact that people can't hit them means they have problems tracking quick moving targets which can be due to a number of factors.
The biggest issue right now is client and server performance - You can't track things that are moving as fast as the lerk is with 30-40 FPS effectively; Not to mention how bad hit registry is currently. Once both client and server performance increase, I can assure you that the lerk will go down like paper.
Another big issue is the fact that the res system that is currently implemented makes it so that you can go lerk 1 minute into the game. Combine that with the fact that everyone on the team has the same pres count and the fact that you really only need 1 gorge to work with the commander means you will have 2-3 or more lerks a minute and a half into the game. At this point the marines don't have any upgrades and probably don't even have shotguns (not that a shotgun will help seeing how broken it is currently) so it makes it very easy for those 2-3 lerks to push back the marines. Not to mention that aliens usually have carapace by this time which makes lerks even harder to kill.
If we nerf everything there will be nothing left to the game. The lerk being OP is not directly related to the abilities of the lerk, but very much so with the current state of the game and the issues I brought up above.
Gas (spores) effects the rate of fire for sentries? When did this happen?
Edit: Just looked throught the Wiki and I guess it does effect sentries but apparently not RoF.
Spore Function: Creates a lingering cloud which inflicts health-only damage on players in area of effect; cloud obstructs player vision and reduces Sentry accuracy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I searched anywhere (Twitter,Desing Doc and Laosh'Ras post) but couldn't find it anymore, so I am not sure anymore. But try it out gas a sentry and you will hear only 2 shots per second. Because it has tracing problems it won't shoot when it dorsn't have the target in the crosshair, my interpretation, but can't find the post anymore.
Since I can't just quote Tempest and call it a useful contribution to the thread, I'll say this:
If you nerf the lerk's mechanics, the lerk will be unfun to play and nigh-useless (like the gorge). The core problem that is making the lerk too powerful right now will not be resolved. It might make the game better for you as a marines' player in the present, but it will be bad for the game at large, and eventually you will get bored with lerks being worthless opponents. Also, we're in a beta and this is an ideal time to realize things like "game balance depends on whether the game performs at an acceptable level for players"
<!--quoteo(post=1927823:date=Apr 20 2012, 02:12 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Apr 20 2012, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just tested this in Operations, Drill Access (? double res on mineshaft) and Crevice.
In the first two my height clearly made no difference when it came to taking damage. 3 turrets all placed facing the centre of the room killed a carapace lerk in about 4 seconds regardless of height.
In crevice the height often put me out of range, with me taking the exact same amount of damage the second I came into range, regardless of my height.
The turrets clearly just have a sphere of range, in which they do the exact same damage per second regardless of position. By the looks of it I don't even think they are capable of missing due to "tracking".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so I might have been off a little. I thought I read where a playtested said turrets don't track well vertically.
I just tested this same setup as well. 4 Turrets in Operations, 2 on each side facing the center.
Lerk with full upgrades I was able to fly in and out with moderate damage but still alive. But flying in and staying in the center which meant getting hit by all sentries, I was killed in about 4 seconds.
So now I tested your first statement "A lerk doing a rapid fly by may be hard to bring down with 3 or 4 marines, but a single turret being able to shoot at a lerk will bring it down in about 4 seconds."
A single turret barely effected a lerk doing a rapid fly by, maybe 25% damage. And it took approx ~8 seconds for it to kill me while hovering right in front of it.
But I would hardly say that turrets are a real threat to Lerks unless you have more than 4 and you stay in the room for too long.
So the lerk hit and run method seems to work fine in this instance.
First match of playing marines and I already see what you mean. Lerks flying around with impunity while I do my best to keep my crosshairs on him. I still can't get back into NS2 again until I get better performance. I'll be frantically trying to "drag" my reticule to shotgun a skulk behind me with 10 fps on a quad core 2.7 ghz, while my brother sitting next to me is getting at least 35 on his silly eight core derp awesome.
I don't entirely mind that, what bugs me is how awkward aiming feels. There isn't vsync or mouse smoothing silliness enabled by default is there? I can top kills on marine team all day long but it feels like a chore to aim compared to how crisp quake and cs are.
I'm honestly worried lerks will be completely redundant once hit reg and performance is working perfectly. They'll need a speed boost or a health boost at that point.
<!--quoteo(post=1927880:date=Apr 20 2012, 04:52 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 20 2012, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I searched anywhere (Twitter,Desing Doc and Laosh'Ras post) but couldn't find it anymore, so I am not sure anymore. But try it out gas a sentry and you will hear only 2 shots per second. Because it has tracing problems it won't shoot when it dorsn't have the target in the crosshair, my interpretation, but can't find the post anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just tried this out and you're right. Even though the Wiki says it only effects their accuracy, it does definity cause them to either shoot slower or at least it sounds that way.
<!--quoteo(post=1927903:date=Apr 20 2012, 06:42 PM:name=mechanicalDR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mechanicalDR @ Apr 20 2012, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm honestly worried lerks will be completely redundant once hit reg and performance is working perfectly. They'll need a speed boost or a health boost at that point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They'll also need spores to be deployable from range, and spikes to have better accuracy and damage rebalanced <b>without </b>close-range rampup. Coincidentally, these are all things that could be put in the game now and balanced against the other mechanics (rather than hastily slapped together when performance increases and the lerk becomes unplayable).
The fact is its a matter of time before lerk get bile bomb. If the Alien commander spam Nutrient Mist to the hive, they can get bile bomb in 5 minutes of gameplay. ( Approximation ) Before it was a lot harder to get to bile bomb because you needed a other hive to have acces to it. Getting a 2nd hive is a lot harder, because you have to secure the main base and the new hive. You really need to split you team ans survive, if the marines are good enough. Sometimes, marines are not harrassing aliens so its easy to build the 2nd hive to get bile bomb, but in most of the case, its hard.
I think build 205 bring bile bomb maybe too fast in the game. I played a lot on All-In Noobs. The games all end the same way. Marines do arc train in the first 8 minutes of game and kick the hive out. Or Aliens get bile bomb in the first 8 minutes and kill the com chair. I really dont like this. Im a Lerk player. I love the new build, but I have to be honest, I think its too easy to get bile bomb and Rage the Marine base.
As soon you have 2-3 lerk bile bombing the marine base, its almost over. Only way to survive is tons of turrets to kill the lerk. Its very effective. Sometimes I cannot do 1 pass in marines base. I died in middle of the base due to the turrets.
<!--quoteo(post=1927907:date=Apr 20 2012, 02:53 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 20 2012, 02:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They'll also need spores to be deployable from range, and spikes to have better accuracy and damage rebalanced <b>without </b>close-range rampup. Coincidentally, these are all things that could be put in the game now and balanced against the other mechanics (rather than hastily slapped together when performance increases and the lerk becomes unplayable).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Spore bombing is awesome though. I'd much rather see them keep it as carpet bombing. Why on earth would you want to increase spike accuracy? Only encourages lerks to pretend to be snipers as opposed to working in conjunction with their team laying down spores and biles.
<!--quoteo(post=1927895:date=Apr 20 2012, 05:28 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Apr 20 2012, 05:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lerk rushes are OP. end of story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines - 6 Annoying thing ARC rushes are OverPower GL rushes are OverPower Shotgun rushes are OverPower Blocking entrance of marine base with Armory is OverPower Blocking Power Nodes with Factory is OverPower Aimbot is OverPower
Aliens - 1 Annoying thing Lerk Rush are OverPower What else ... nothing
<!--quoteo(post=1927914:date=Apr 20 2012, 07:10 PM:name=mechanicalDR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mechanicalDR @ Apr 20 2012, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spore bombing is awesome though. I'd much rather see them keep it as carpet bombing. Why on earth would you want to increase spike accuracy? Only encourages lerks to pretend to be snipers as opposed to working in conjunction with their team laying down spores and biles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can put damage falloff or something to remove the idiotic sniper play.
You can also keep 'carpet bombing'/'crop dusting' while adding more options for spores by <i>making them take on player momentum when they drop</i>. I made a cheap hacky version of this a few builds ago but I need to re-do it properly so people can test it. I swear it's good for the game in many ways.
<!--quoteo(post=1927915:date=Apr 20 2012, 07:10 PM:name=matfra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matfra @ Apr 20 2012, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines - 6 Annoying thing ARC rushes are OverPower GL rushes are OverPower Shotgun rushes are OverPower Blocking entrance of marine base with Armory is OverPower Blocking Power Nodes with Factory is OverPower Aimbot is OverPower
Aliens - 1 Annoying thing Lerk Rush are OverPower What else ... nothing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerks consistently end games, but those other things don't (because they're harder to execute than pushing 3 buttons without regard for what anyone else in the game is doing)
<!--quoteo(post=1927915:date=Apr 20 2012, 07:10 PM:name=matfra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matfra @ Apr 20 2012, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines - 6 Annoying thing ARC rushes are OverPower GL rushes are OverPower Shotgun rushes are OverPower Blocking entrance of marine base with Armory is OverPower Blocking Power Nodes with Factory is OverPower Aimbot is OverPower
Aliens - 1 Annoying thing Lerk Rush are OverPower What else ... nothing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
arc rushes are countered by lerks 100% gl rushes are situational shotgun rushes aren't OP at all armory blocking is noob tactics and won't stop a lerk rush robo facs? that's just stretching it. there are no aimbotters that i've seen.
<!--quoteo(post=1927916:date=Apr 20 2012, 06:16 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 20 2012, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lerks consistently end games, but those other things don't (because they're harder to execute than pushing 3 buttons without regard for what anyone else in the game is doing)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im sorry but I do not agree with you. ARC rushes are prepare far way from action, then a huge train is send to the hive to finish it. Its cheap and stupid. NS1 Siege canon were bette. You had to put a factory, protect it, upgrade it. It was lot harder, and more fair then ARC train.
<!--quoteo(post=1927916:date=Apr 20 2012, 03:16 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 20 2012, 03:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can put damage falloff or something to remove the idiotic sniper play.
You can also keep 'carpet bombing'/'crop dusting' while adding more options for spores by <i>making them take on player momentum when they drop</i>. I made a cheap hacky version of this a few builds ago but I need to re-do it properly so people can test it. I swear it's good for the game in many ways.
Lerks consistently end games, but those other things don't (because they're harder to execute than pushing 3 buttons without regard for what anyone else in the game is doing)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That actually sounds pretty sweet. Even better. Let Lerk be able to beat their wings to blow spores in a certain direction. Think you are safe sitting in a corner to avoid spores? THINK AGAIN.
How about make it accurate only at short range instead of falloff? Hard to tell falloff exists with silly damage numbers popping up. Misses are entirely visible.
<!--quoteo(post=1927924:date=Apr 20 2012, 07:23 PM:name=mechanicalDR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mechanicalDR @ Apr 20 2012, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about make it accurate only at short range instead of falloff? Hard to tell falloff exists with silly damage numbers popping up. Misses are entirely visible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerks without bite shouldn't be required to be in close range. It's just silly and makes gameplay extremely polarized and simple. If I have to fly in shotgun-suicide range to use spikes, I want them to kill marines in 1 or 2 seconds reliably, not run me out of adrenaline because 1 medpack was dropped.
If it ends up too powerful, they can tweak numbers, but at least the base design is fun for lerk players. Some of them might even start using spikes instead of just spamming spores/bile everywhere like trained animals!
<!--quoteo(post=1927859:date=Apr 20 2012, 05:01 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Apr 20 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927859"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is not true and has been quoted many times but in reality you don't have to "lead" anything. You shoot where they are on your screen and you will (for the most part) get decent hit registration. When the client shoots the server rolls back to the same point in time to see if they are actually hitting or not. If there was a 200-250 ms delay no one would be playing.
On to the lerk being OP - it is pretty much the only class that has some sort of skill left in the game. The fact that people can't hit them means they have problems tracking quick moving targets which can be due to a number of factors.
The biggest issue right now is client and server performance - You can't track things that are moving as fast as the lerk is with 30-40 FPS effectively; Not to mention how bad hit registry is currently. Once both client and server performance increase, I can assure you that the lerk will go down like paper.
Another big issue is the fact that the res system that is currently implemented makes it so that you can go lerk 1 minute into the game. Combine that with the fact that everyone on the team has the same pres count and the fact that you really only need 1 gorge to work with the commander means you will have 2-3 or more lerks a minute and a half into the game. At this point the marines don't have any upgrades and probably don't even have shotguns (not that a shotgun will help seeing how broken it is currently) so it makes it very easy for those 2-3 lerks to push back the marines. Not to mention that aliens usually have carapace by this time which makes lerks even harder to kill.
If we nerf everything there will be nothing left to the game. The lerk being OP is not directly related to the abilities of the lerk, but very much so with the current state of the game and the issues I brought up above.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I can agree with this, that it is a performance thing, and if we can pull a constant 60fps it would probably change things a lot. The problem is that doesn't seem like something that will happen anytime soon. I think a stop gap solution might be to lower health/armor at least until they can get the game to acceptable speeds on most machines. And yes, they are just way too cheap right now, especially since we start with 25 pres. What's the point in starting pres now anyway? Why not force a skulk vs marine 3-5 minutes or longer, instead of instantly having lerks within a minute?
Why do we need stop gap solutions? Just play the broken game and submit bugs since you're in a beta. If/when performance gets a significant boost, so much time will have gone to waste making balance changes that will be reverted, and designing abilities that have zero long-term potential. If you take the current design of the game and project it into a world where everyone has a good framerate, net performance etc, the lerk is a hideously weak and rigid class (because of how spores and spikes are designed, map architecture, max flight speed...). The focus of the game designers should be on fixing that, while the programmers improve performance. When those two paths come together you end up with a good game.
Consider grenade launchers. They're extremely simple (in terms of how many different interactions they have in the game). They're effective for marines when used well, and ineffective when used poorly. There are clearly-defined and intuitive ways for aliens to fight them. If marines were impossible to hit, grenades would win every game the way lerks do now with bile/spores. Marines aren't impossible to hit, so the correctness of the grenade launcher's design shows through in most games where they're used.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2012
LOL <b>I cant believe what i'm reading,</b> nobody played the lerk for MONTHS because it wasn't a viable class!! It just died so easily/instantly it was so frustrating.
Now that changes have been made and it is a successful class and definitely a viable option, the other extreme comes into play because nobody has seen this before as such - its as if its a new feature for some people. Some things like the weld denying time from BB need to be adjusted, but considering how easy it is to kill a lerk (<strike>a little over a single magazine?</strike> 24 bullets) only time will fix things as what people are experiencing is:
1) poor performance 2) inability to track as a result (or from skill) 3) intentional game design discouraging leaving the group 4) confusion of how 0 personal resource costing vanilla marine can lose against a 30 personal resource flying alien
invTempest hit the major points, as well there ^ starting personal resources of 25 means its ~ 1 minute to lerk. 0.0
even if you could track perfectly, 6 lerks coming into your base bilebombing@6 minutes is pretty much gg. you don't even have time to beacon cause the obs goes down instantly
invTempestJoin Date: 2003-03-02Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1927960:date=Apr 20 2012, 08:07 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Apr 20 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->even if you could track perfectly, 6 lerks coming into your base bilebombing@6 minutes is pretty much gg. you don't even have time to beacon cause the obs goes down instantly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just pointed out the issues - 6 lerks with bile bomb at 6 minutes. The lerk itself is fine but what is not fine is how quickly everyone can go lerk and how fast they can get bilebomb.
And no, once marines can track lerks you will be able to pick them right out of the sky (if performance ever improves).
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
yea, wheee what you are referring to there is not an issue with the lerk but rather Mass tech/lifeform from the resource model. (pres sinks and ways to earn pres to create fluctuation or variance amongst players - relying solely on time means everyone upgrades at once.)
<!--quoteo(post=1927964:date=Apr 20 2012, 09:18 PM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Apr 20 2012, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You just pointed out the issues - 6 lerks with bile bomb at 6 minutes. The lerk itself is fine but what is not fine is how quickly everyone can go lerk and how fast they can get bilebomb.
And no, once marines can track lerks you will be able to pick them right out of the sky (if performance ever improves).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a problem not limited to Lerks. The community has been pointing it out with Fades and Onos for awhile now. It's a problem that has resulted from the removal of the NS1 Gorge resource sink; the Alien team has nothing to spend resources on other than lifeforms now compared to upgrade chambers, RT's, and hives in NS1.
Balance for this game is challenging because many of the aliens are difficult to hit, Lerk being the biggest offender
Without BB I would never even go lerk; I seem to always run out of E before I kill even one marine with spikes
A specialized weapon to deal with lerks seemed like the best option at the time. . . I've already suggested making it so Flamethrower disables lerks ability to fly
Lerks are a crappy support unit with wings that are only good against bad players and comms that don't know how to med. The only reason anyone can kill a non mentally handicapped marine player currently as a lerk is because the hit registration and latency isn't quite great yet. Once it is lerks won't be worth 10 res let alone 30.
Air bursting grenades over your base as lerks fly by is fun, kind of like anti-air flak, although a very hit or miss way of taking them out. Using the minimap radar you can see them coming and stand a good chance of getting one that way.
I rarely get enough trigger time to take them out with a rifle, and for a shotgun to work they've got to fly right by you point blank.
Comments
Do you want to explain how my comments are biased? Fact is you don't see marines flying through alien bases in a matter of seconds, dropping 3 gls, then flying back, another 3 gls, rinse and repeat.
When they sweep past a room, it's a bit hard to kill them with one magazine, but two marines shouldn't have any problems against one lerk. You shouldn't be running off alone anyways. If you get meds / nano from comm, lerk has no chance against you one on one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT
And good positioning also helps alot. I am not a bad Lerk but this patch as soon as you even glide 0,5s you are dead.
Skie and Coldddeath proved it today alot of times.
It worked everything, mine traps > dead, 2 good players aiming -> dead, good positioning -> dead and surprise escaperoute trap -> dead.
To the OP, Lerk DMG is already light (4 dmg remove 1 armor) and the precision is 0.
You can shoot spikes at s marine 3m away (crosshair centered on chest) and still miss him even when both of you don't move.
But I agree that the Lerk is very powerfull. The combination of the corrode DMG from BB and the high light DMG from spikes is so powerfull that you can BB a group of 4 marines several times and then kill all with only 20 spikes (around 2s).
A base of sentrys is no problem for a Lerk, his gas reduces the RoF from the sentrys to 2 shots per second.
Get in gas get out, get in and BB. Repeat.
Get in gas get out, get in and BB. Repeat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait, what?
Gas (spores) effects the rate of fire for sentries? When did this happen?
Edit: Just looked throught the Wiki and I guess it does effect sentries but apparently not RoF.
Spore
Function: Creates a lingering cloud which inflicts health-only damage on players in area of effect; cloud obstructs player vision and reduces Sentry accuracy.
This is not true and has been quoted many times but in reality you don't have to "lead" anything. You shoot where they are on your screen and you will (for the most part) get decent hit registration. When the client shoots the server rolls back to the same point in time to see if they are actually hitting or not. If there was a 200-250 ms delay no one would be playing.
On to the lerk being OP - it is pretty much the only class that has some sort of skill left in the game. The fact that people can't hit them means they have problems tracking quick moving targets which can be due to a number of factors.
The biggest issue right now is client and server performance - You can't track things that are moving as fast as the lerk is with 30-40 FPS effectively; Not to mention how bad hit registry is currently. Once both client and server performance increase, I can assure you that the lerk will go down like paper.
Another big issue is the fact that the res system that is currently implemented makes it so that you can go lerk 1 minute into the game. Combine that with the fact that everyone on the team has the same pres count and the fact that you really only need 1 gorge to work with the commander means you will have 2-3 or more lerks a minute and a half into the game. At this point the marines don't have any upgrades and probably don't even have shotguns (not that a shotgun will help seeing how broken it is currently) so it makes it very easy for those 2-3 lerks to push back the marines. Not to mention that aliens usually have carapace by this time which makes lerks even harder to kill.
If we nerf everything there will be nothing left to the game. The lerk being OP is not directly related to the abilities of the lerk, but very much so with the current state of the game and the issues I brought up above.
Gas (spores) effects the rate of fire for sentries? When did this happen?
Edit: Just looked throught the Wiki and I guess it does effect sentries but apparently not RoF.
Spore
Function: Creates a lingering cloud which inflicts health-only damage on players in area of effect; cloud obstructs player vision and reduces Sentry accuracy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I searched anywhere (Twitter,Desing Doc and Laosh'Ras post) but couldn't find it anymore, so I am not sure anymore.
But try it out gas a sentry and you will hear only 2 shots per second. Because it has tracing problems it won't shoot when it dorsn't have the target in the crosshair, my interpretation, but can't find the post anymore.
If you nerf the lerk's mechanics, the lerk will be unfun to play and nigh-useless (like the gorge). The core problem that is making the lerk too powerful right now will not be resolved. It might make the game better for you as a marines' player in the present, but it will be bad for the game at large, and eventually you will get bored with lerks being worthless opponents. Also, we're in a beta and this is an ideal time to realize things like "game balance depends on whether the game performs at an acceptable level for players"
In the first two my height clearly made no difference when it came to taking damage. 3 turrets all placed facing the centre of the room killed a carapace lerk in about 4 seconds regardless of height.
In crevice the height often put me out of range, with me taking the exact same amount of damage the second I came into range, regardless of my height.
The turrets clearly just have a sphere of range, in which they do the exact same damage per second regardless of position. By the looks of it I don't even think they are capable of missing due to "tracking".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so I might have been off a little. I thought I read where a playtested said turrets don't track well vertically.
I just tested this same setup as well.
4 Turrets in Operations, 2 on each side facing the center.
Lerk with full upgrades I was able to fly in and out with moderate damage but still alive. But flying in and staying in the center which meant getting hit by all sentries, I was killed in about 4 seconds.
So now I tested your first statement "A lerk doing a rapid fly by may be hard to bring down with 3 or 4 marines, but a single turret being able to shoot at a lerk will bring it down in about 4 seconds."
A single turret barely effected a lerk doing a rapid fly by, maybe 25% damage. And it took approx ~8 seconds for it to kill me while hovering right in front of it.
But I would hardly say that turrets are a real threat to Lerks unless you have more than 4 and you stay in the room for too long.
So the lerk hit and run method seems to work fine in this instance.
I still can't get back into NS2 again until I get better performance. I'll be frantically trying to "drag" my reticule to shotgun a skulk behind me with 10 fps on a quad core 2.7 ghz, while my brother sitting next to me is getting at least 35 on his silly eight core derp awesome.
I don't entirely mind that, what bugs me is how awkward aiming feels. There isn't vsync or mouse smoothing silliness enabled by default is there? I can top kills on marine team all day long but it feels like a chore to aim compared to how crisp quake and cs are.
I'm honestly worried lerks will be completely redundant once hit reg and performance is working perfectly. They'll need a speed boost or a health boost at that point.
But try it out gas a sentry and you will hear only 2 shots per second. Because it has tracing problems it won't shoot when it dorsn't have the target in the crosshair, my interpretation, but can't find the post anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just tried this out and you're right. Even though the Wiki says it only effects their accuracy, it does definity cause them to either shoot slower or at least it sounds that way.
They'll also need spores to be deployable from range, and spikes to have better accuracy and damage rebalanced <b>without </b>close-range rampup.
Coincidentally, these are all things that could be put in the game now and balanced against the other mechanics (rather than hastily slapped together when performance increases and the lerk becomes unplayable).
I think build 205 bring bile bomb maybe too fast in the game. I played a lot on All-In Noobs. The games all end the same way. Marines do arc train in the first 8 minutes of game and kick the hive out. Or Aliens get bile bomb in the first 8 minutes and kill the com chair. I really dont like this. Im a Lerk player. I love the new build, but I have to be honest, I think its too easy to get bile bomb and Rage the Marine base.
As soon you have 2-3 lerk bile bombing the marine base, its almost over. Only way to survive is tons of turrets to kill the lerk. Its very effective. Sometimes I cannot do 1 pass in marines base. I died in middle of the base due to the turrets.
Coincidentally, these are all things that could be put in the game now and balanced against the other mechanics (rather than hastily slapped together when performance increases and the lerk becomes unplayable).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spore bombing is awesome though. I'd much rather see them keep it as carpet bombing. Why on earth would you want to increase spike accuracy? Only encourages lerks to pretend to be snipers as opposed to working in conjunction with their team laying down spores and biles.
Marines - 6 Annoying thing
ARC rushes are OverPower
GL rushes are OverPower
Shotgun rushes are OverPower
Blocking entrance of marine base with Armory is OverPower
Blocking Power Nodes with Factory is OverPower
Aimbot is OverPower
Aliens - 1 Annoying thing
Lerk Rush are OverPower
What else ... nothing
You can put damage falloff or something to remove the idiotic sniper play.
You can also keep 'carpet bombing'/'crop dusting' while adding more options for spores by <i>making them take on player momentum when they drop</i>. I made a cheap hacky version of this a few builds ago but I need to re-do it properly so people can test it. I swear it's good for the game in many ways.
<!--quoteo(post=1927915:date=Apr 20 2012, 07:10 PM:name=matfra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matfra @ Apr 20 2012, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines - 6 Annoying thing
ARC rushes are OverPower
GL rushes are OverPower
Shotgun rushes are OverPower
Blocking entrance of marine base with Armory is OverPower
Blocking Power Nodes with Factory is OverPower
Aimbot is OverPower
Aliens - 1 Annoying thing
Lerk Rush are OverPower
What else ... nothing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerks consistently end games, but those other things don't (because they're harder to execute than pushing 3 buttons without regard for what anyone else in the game is doing)
ARC rushes are OverPower
GL rushes are OverPower
Shotgun rushes are OverPower
Blocking entrance of marine base with Armory is OverPower
Blocking Power Nodes with Factory is OverPower
Aimbot is OverPower
Aliens - 1 Annoying thing
Lerk Rush are OverPower
What else ... nothing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
arc rushes are countered by lerks 100%
gl rushes are situational
shotgun rushes aren't OP at all
armory blocking is noob tactics and won't stop a lerk rush
robo facs? that's just stretching it.
there are no aimbotters that i've seen.
Im sorry but I do not agree with you. ARC rushes are prepare far way from action, then a huge train is send to the hive to finish it. Its cheap and stupid. NS1 Siege canon were bette. You had to put a factory, protect it, upgrade it. It was lot harder, and more fair then ARC train.
You can also keep 'carpet bombing'/'crop dusting' while adding more options for spores by <i>making them take on player momentum when they drop</i>. I made a cheap hacky version of this a few builds ago but I need to re-do it properly so people can test it. I swear it's good for the game in many ways.
Lerks consistently end games, but those other things don't (because they're harder to execute than pushing 3 buttons without regard for what anyone else in the game is doing)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That actually sounds pretty sweet. Even better. Let Lerk be able to beat their wings to blow spores in a certain direction. Think you are safe sitting in a corner to avoid spores? THINK AGAIN.
How about make it accurate only at short range instead of falloff? Hard to tell falloff exists with silly damage numbers popping up. Misses are entirely visible.
Lerks without bite shouldn't be required to be in close range. It's just silly and makes gameplay extremely polarized and simple. If I have to fly in shotgun-suicide range to use spikes, I want them to kill marines in 1 or 2 seconds reliably, not run me out of adrenaline because 1 medpack was dropped.
If it ends up too powerful, they can tweak numbers, but at least the base design is fun for lerk players. Some of them might even start using spikes instead of just spamming spores/bile everywhere like trained animals!
On to the lerk being OP - it is pretty much the only class that has some sort of skill left in the game. The fact that people can't hit them means they have problems tracking quick moving targets which can be due to a number of factors.
The biggest issue right now is client and server performance - You can't track things that are moving as fast as the lerk is with 30-40 FPS effectively; Not to mention how bad hit registry is currently. Once both client and server performance increase, I can assure you that the lerk will go down like paper.
Another big issue is the fact that the res system that is currently implemented makes it so that you can go lerk 1 minute into the game. Combine that with the fact that everyone on the team has the same pres count and the fact that you really only need 1 gorge to work with the commander means you will have 2-3 or more lerks a minute and a half into the game. At this point the marines don't have any upgrades and probably don't even have shotguns (not that a shotgun will help seeing how broken it is currently) so it makes it very easy for those 2-3 lerks to push back the marines. Not to mention that aliens usually have carapace by this time which makes lerks even harder to kill.
If we nerf everything there will be nothing left to the game. The lerk being OP is not directly related to the abilities of the lerk, but very much so with the current state of the game and the issues I brought up above.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I can agree with this, that it is a performance thing, and if we can pull a constant 60fps it would probably change things a lot. The problem is that doesn't seem like something that will happen anytime soon. I think a stop gap solution might be to lower health/armor at least until they can get the game to acceptable speeds on most machines. And yes, they are just way too cheap right now, especially since we start with 25 pres. What's the point in starting pres now anyway? Why not force a skulk vs marine 3-5 minutes or longer, instead of instantly having lerks within a minute?
Why do we need stop gap solutions? Just play the broken game and submit bugs since you're in a beta. If/when performance gets a significant boost, so much time will have gone to waste making balance changes that will be reverted, and designing abilities that have zero long-term potential. If you take the current design of the game and project it into a world where everyone has a good framerate, net performance etc, the lerk is a hideously weak and rigid class (because of how spores and spikes are designed, map architecture, max flight speed...). The focus of the game designers should be on fixing that, while the programmers improve performance. When those two paths come together you end up with a good game.
Consider grenade launchers. They're extremely simple (in terms of how many different interactions they have in the game). They're effective for marines when used well, and ineffective when used poorly. There are clearly-defined and intuitive ways for aliens to fight them. If marines were impossible to hit, grenades would win every game the way lerks do now with bile/spores. Marines aren't impossible to hit, so the correctness of the grenade launcher's design shows through in most games where they're used.
<b>I cant believe what i'm reading,</b> nobody played the lerk for MONTHS because it wasn't a viable class!! It just died so easily/instantly it was so frustrating.
Now that changes have been made and it is a successful class and definitely a viable option, the other extreme comes into play because nobody has seen this before as such - its as if its a new feature for some people. Some things like the weld denying time from BB need to be adjusted, but considering how easy it is to kill a lerk (<strike>a little over a single magazine?</strike> 24 bullets) only time will fix things as what people are experiencing is:
1) poor performance
2) inability to track as a result (or from skill)
3) intentional game design discouraging leaving the group
4) confusion of how 0 personal resource costing vanilla marine can lose against a 30 personal resource flying alien
invTempest hit the major points, as well there ^
starting personal resources of 25 means its ~ 1 minute to lerk. 0.0
You just pointed out the issues - 6 lerks with bile bomb at 6 minutes. The lerk itself is fine but what is not fine is how quickly everyone can go lerk and how fast they can get bilebomb.
And no, once marines can track lerks you will be able to pick them right out of the sky (if performance ever improves).
And no, once marines can track lerks you will be able to pick them right out of the sky (if performance ever improves).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a problem not limited to Lerks. The community has been pointing it out with Fades and Onos for awhile now. It's a problem that has resulted from the removal of the NS1 Gorge resource sink; the Alien team has nothing to spend resources on other than lifeforms now compared to upgrade chambers, RT's, and hives in NS1.
Without BB I would never even go lerk; I seem to always run out of E before I kill even one marine with spikes
A specialized weapon to deal with lerks seemed like the best option at the time. . .
I've already suggested making it so Flamethrower disables lerks ability to fly
I rarely get enough trigger time to take them out with a rifle, and for a shotgun to work they've got to fly right by you point blank.