Why aliens dominate NS 2
Xarius
Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
<div class="IPBDescription">And how to fix it easily</div>I'm going to try and keep this short and to the point, since no on likes reading walls of texts. First off let me say that I am a huge fan of NS, and would love nothing more than for the sequel to be as amazing as the first. This is meant to be constructive criticism, in an effort to solve what is in my opinion a deep rooted design flaw in the current implementation of the alien faction. One that however can be easily solved by UWE if they desire so
I have been watching numerous competitive games for the last couple of days, with the wisdom in mind that balance needs to be done on the high levels of play, and what I saw was that even with the 'gentlemen agreement' in place aliens won 95% of their games. Marines struggled to hold on to even just a few RTs from early on in the game, so I started to reflect on this (having experience in both game design and balance myself, it is something I like to do for most of the games I play) in an attempt to figure out why early game NS2 gameplay is so much more in favour of aliens than it was in NS 1. I have come to an important conclusion that I want to share with you all.
Let's look at NS 1 and compare it with NS 2 shortly. In NS 1 you rarely ever saw and equal number of skulks on the field versus an equal number of marines. I.e you never had 7 marines versus 7 skulks running around the map. Aliens always had at least 2 - 3 gorge players, with one or another alien player also saving res for a hive. This is important because it meant that: 1. There were less aliens directly pressuring marine RTs and marine map control, 2. there were less aliens having spare p.res to go fade or onos later in the game.
It is also important that we keep in mind the advantage aliens, in equal numbers, have over marines. This is especially apparent if we look at the fade and onos. 1 Fade or onos can easily occupy an entire team or at least a group of marine players. 3 - 4 Fades or onoses in the early-mid game would then also mean it is pretty much GG since marines (until lategame, where imo with lategame tech like the exo, assuming marines ever make it that far, marines are more or less going to be on equal footing again) can not cope with such an amount of higher alien lifeforms. Even if you have 3 skulks versus 3 marines, aliens have the edge because of the manoeuvrability and surprise element. Not just that, a single skulk will probably be able to take out at least one marine before he dies himself, meaning aliens have the ability to out-attrition marines on the frontlines.
By having less players directly on the frontline in NS 1, this advantage was largely mitigated and marines could make it out of the earlygame phase.
<u><b>Easy fixes</b></u>
So how can we go about fixing this? Since UWE developers have stated they do not want the gorge to be as pivotal to gameplay as he was in NS 1, we need to find a way to implement this important NS 1 'mitigation' while still respecting design decisions like the implementation of the alien Khamm. The ability for the Khamm to build without needing aliens present is HUGE, since it is this that essentially allows all other alien players to throw themselves at the marines from the get go.
What I propose:
- Allow gorges to build the structures that the khamm puts down, similar to how marines build structures that the comm puts down
- Keep drifters as a TECH option like MACs for marines
- Allow gorges to build full (instead of mini) cysts, significantly cheaper than the comm.
What this does:
Gorges would not become absolutely essential to gameplay like in NS 1 since the comm can still do the building and expanding by himself, but it WOULD mean there is now a trade-off. I.e The khamm can build by himself (invest in drifter tech and place expensive cysts), allowing more skulks to be on the frontline applying pressure at the cost of slower alien expansion and teching OR he could have gorges do some of the building (By building I mean putting the structure up, the khamm still puts down the structure itself and pays for it like the marine comm does) and have gorges spread infestation at the cost of less pressure on the marine team.
So there'd now be a proper trade-off for the comm:
- More pressure and slower expansion/tech
- Less pressure and faster expansion/tech
Not only that, it would make gorges a lot more enjoyable, would expand the strategic options for the khamm and (I am 99% certain of this) will reestablish early-mid game balance between marines and aliens.
What do you guys think? I will gladly answer your questions and criticism.
- Unkn0wn
I have been watching numerous competitive games for the last couple of days, with the wisdom in mind that balance needs to be done on the high levels of play, and what I saw was that even with the 'gentlemen agreement' in place aliens won 95% of their games. Marines struggled to hold on to even just a few RTs from early on in the game, so I started to reflect on this (having experience in both game design and balance myself, it is something I like to do for most of the games I play) in an attempt to figure out why early game NS2 gameplay is so much more in favour of aliens than it was in NS 1. I have come to an important conclusion that I want to share with you all.
Let's look at NS 1 and compare it with NS 2 shortly. In NS 1 you rarely ever saw and equal number of skulks on the field versus an equal number of marines. I.e you never had 7 marines versus 7 skulks running around the map. Aliens always had at least 2 - 3 gorge players, with one or another alien player also saving res for a hive. This is important because it meant that: 1. There were less aliens directly pressuring marine RTs and marine map control, 2. there were less aliens having spare p.res to go fade or onos later in the game.
It is also important that we keep in mind the advantage aliens, in equal numbers, have over marines. This is especially apparent if we look at the fade and onos. 1 Fade or onos can easily occupy an entire team or at least a group of marine players. 3 - 4 Fades or onoses in the early-mid game would then also mean it is pretty much GG since marines (until lategame, where imo with lategame tech like the exo, assuming marines ever make it that far, marines are more or less going to be on equal footing again) can not cope with such an amount of higher alien lifeforms. Even if you have 3 skulks versus 3 marines, aliens have the edge because of the manoeuvrability and surprise element. Not just that, a single skulk will probably be able to take out at least one marine before he dies himself, meaning aliens have the ability to out-attrition marines on the frontlines.
By having less players directly on the frontline in NS 1, this advantage was largely mitigated and marines could make it out of the earlygame phase.
<u><b>Easy fixes</b></u>
So how can we go about fixing this? Since UWE developers have stated they do not want the gorge to be as pivotal to gameplay as he was in NS 1, we need to find a way to implement this important NS 1 'mitigation' while still respecting design decisions like the implementation of the alien Khamm. The ability for the Khamm to build without needing aliens present is HUGE, since it is this that essentially allows all other alien players to throw themselves at the marines from the get go.
What I propose:
- Allow gorges to build the structures that the khamm puts down, similar to how marines build structures that the comm puts down
- Keep drifters as a TECH option like MACs for marines
- Allow gorges to build full (instead of mini) cysts, significantly cheaper than the comm.
What this does:
Gorges would not become absolutely essential to gameplay like in NS 1 since the comm can still do the building and expanding by himself, but it WOULD mean there is now a trade-off. I.e The khamm can build by himself (invest in drifter tech and place expensive cysts), allowing more skulks to be on the frontline applying pressure at the cost of slower alien expansion and teching OR he could have gorges do some of the building (By building I mean putting the structure up, the khamm still puts down the structure itself and pays for it like the marine comm does) and have gorges spread infestation at the cost of less pressure on the marine team.
So there'd now be a proper trade-off for the comm:
- More pressure and slower expansion/tech
- Less pressure and faster expansion/tech
Not only that, it would make gorges a lot more enjoyable, would expand the strategic options for the khamm and (I am 99% certain of this) will reestablish early-mid game balance between marines and aliens.
What do you guys think? I will gladly answer your questions and criticism.
- Unkn0wn
Comments
Personally, I always liked playing Gorge and find the current Gorge much less fun to play. I'm not sure if returning to a more constructive role is the answer, but one thing that was always interesting about Natural Selection was the huge dichotomy; The Kharaa functioned in a completely different fashion than the Marines, from builders to people on the front line. The hierarchy was similar to the disconnected structure of modern protest movements where everyone is working towards the same goal without a definite command structure.
The changes that you are proposing would only go further in closing the gap between Marines and Kharaa, so that both sides function almost identically but with different units and art assets. I do not believe that this is where the game should be headed.
In most NS1 comp games i played/remember you would only have 1 perm gorge, the rest stayed/re-skulked after chambers, so arguably it still works out the same (1 alien comm vs perm gorge).
Because we both know the game is balanced just fine
<img src="http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/82/protip.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
In the beginning we lost 3 rts as aliens, consitering how important rts are this should have crippled our play, however it was easy for me to simply replace the rts few sec after they went down with relative ease.
As the game went on we got more adv lifeforms and marines were unable to keep the pressure on the rts. The risk reward here is clearly not good enough.
This could also be connected to cysts, currently its really hard to take our aliens map control since cysts are pretty cheap. Even though you brake the chain the alien commander still has plenty of time to repair the damage.
UWE have said that gorge will get some new abilities and structures. Is that going to mean more people playing gorge? Well if the gorge doesn't have any essential abilities I'm sceptical it will.
I would agree with Grissi that it is quite easy to recover from lost rts on alien side. You also only need one chamber to get full upgrades for you aliens, so it became relatively a bit more cheap for aliens.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Allow gorges to build the structures that the khamm puts down, similar to how marines build structures that the comm puts down
- Keep drifters as a TECH option like MACs for marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Trying to expand in different directions in the beginning could become quite stressful with the implemented changes. It would require a lot more interaction between the comm and his players. But I can see this work out.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Allow gorges to build full (instead of mini) cysts, significantly cheaper than the comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In never like the idea of having different kinds of cysts, so I support it. I think there are some changes planned already anyway.
I wholey agree with this. I have noticed esspceially in saturday's competative games during the VITAL first couple of minuites of the match 2 to 3 of the marrines were staying behind to build up the first few buildings for the commander which ment a very limited amount of marrines were able to go out and capture res points. Although the building of the armoury and extra IP/Obs took about 30 ish seconds this was enough time for the aliens to go out and dominate the map before marrines could get a proper foot hold. And even then aliens like Classic says the commander is able to replace things that grow auto this gives skulks in the area the freedom to defend while something grows. Yes aliens have to place infestation first but the fact is alien players are able to fight back before getting shot. Marrines i have seen constantly are getting bitten in the ass (litruly) because they are building something and then the building does not get built even if the alien and marrine both die meaning vital resources are unavalible.
I think the way round this as a problem for the essential early game is to provide marrines with 1 or 2 macs at the start to allow them to get on their feet to the same level as aliens. This could also lead to sevearl very intersting stratagy's such as does the commander send out the macs with marrines to gain a further foothold OR do the macs stay home freeing up marrines on early builds. And do the aliens choose to purposely rush the macs to cut of a early build capability but at the same time this allows marrines to take more ground while aliens distracted...etc
Now if the marrines wanted more Macs when of course the normal rotobtics lab route would have to be taken but i think it might just give marrines that little bit of early game boost they need.
Now of course late game for aliens its well known ONOS is a real killer at the moment but most certainly (i hope) will be fixed with the counter of the most awesome exo (damn i cant wait for that xD always was an exo master in F.E.A.R 2 online) but the way that such early dissadvantages to marrines during early game seem to be determaing endgame before its even started I think those Macs could really take the well needed release of some pressure on them and perhaps being bitten in the ass will be a little less although it never does get old :P
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 usually one gorge who build an rt went back to skulk and you also didn't have the alien-commander (one less marine on the field). Just as Mkk_Bitestuff already pointed out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is also true, though the comm can get RTs a lot faster than gorges could in NS 1, in addition, they'd have to re-gorge and re-invest resources if an RT went down, which means you'd periodically have less players being skulks than you do in NS 2. So I would like to argue that in NS1, even with gorges reskulking, you'd have bigger breaks in the constant pressure on marines.
In general I would probably also have to admit the ability for the Khamm to get map control insanely fast is a big factor as well. Not only does he not need players staying behind to build, he can also spread infestation and builds RTS at a MUCH more rapid rate. I suppose hitting that expansion speed would already go a long way as well.
They could also make it so that you can upgrade the hives to increase the egg spawn rates (wasnt there originally mature hives?).
a) the lack of things to spend tres on
b) onos
NS1 taught me how it's often really difficult to understand the connections inside the game when there are 12 independend pieces with equally many mindsets towards the game interacting with each other constantly. You want to be able to roll back the situations from multiple angles to really understand why things go the way they do.
Its a very complex topic, but without beeing able to easily exchange ideas and feedback with charlie its kinda hard to make a suggestion he might agree on... i dont feel like summing up all my thoughts(there were quite a few of those back in the days looking at my 1240 post counter) just so it might be ignored(you dont really see dev replys in such threads) and maybe even buried under a big amount of random or offtopic posts. (not thats it would be better suggestions than anyone else, but you get what i mean)
So we currently see only surface changes on a single element of the game, a lot of ppl yell X is op so devs look into it, tho that X might be op because of A, B and C isnt really looked at that much and some solutions fix a problem but open up new ones.
E.g the planned gorge change where he doesnt need to spend pres for his structures will be another nice boost for aliens again. Since this player can then get a higher lifeform too pretty quick after the ones saving from start, while providing some cheap defences at a key position) To fix this they would need to increase evolving costs for gorge, but that will make a new problem again, because not beeing able to get a cheap healer unit.... etc. etc.
Summit imo is the best map out but still way too small not to mention the foolish games where starting locations are right next to one another.
Aliens can get more rts and faster than in close spawns, have infestation in both directions of the main hive(slowing marines denying building and giving motion tracker) can just pressure rts behind the front to force marines back, or attack the base if marines extend into alien territory, => aliens wont lose much rts, if any... etc. (i can explain it in more detail if you need)
edit: also did i ever mention that marines running around with lower ammo most of the time compared to ns1, because you have to waste so much on crappy cysts that will just be replaced endlessly without any damage to the alien economy?
Next it becomes the marines turn to rush, since they get shotguns before fades appear. If they rush and are organised, they can end the game quickly.
Then fades appear, aliens against start to dominate until marines turtle up their positions and get flamers. Any movement either way becomes slow at this point.
Then onos appears, and exosuit would be here, and the game becomes fluid again.
From the above, I think the problem is different tech trees and roles during points of the game. Is this diversity and to be celebrated? Or should aliens be demanded to take a more active role in building their structures initially, like marines? Previously gorges would be sitting around spamming healspray to setup a base, now they are rushing the comm chair and going gorge later.
Compare that to NS2 currently, where most of the players, commander and perhaps one gorge excepted, save their res for lifeforms. Combine that with the difficulty of reliably doing damage to aliens currently due to poor server/client performance, and it should be pretty obivous why balance is skewed in favour of the aliens.
<a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/150pxFW1...-d_Ez0L1js/edit</a>
I'm not sure that copies correctly, but the basic idea was to get to the quote of what NS2 is basically by design. "Strategy and shooter gameplay requires lots of delicate decisions and tradeoffs. Often what makes one game type fun, makes the other less fun. When the two can’t be balanced, give precedence to the shooter. NS1 was a real-time strategy game with a shooter interface, <b>NS2 is a shooter first</b>, and RTS second (more people experience it as a shooter than an RTS)"
So basically, if the shooter comes first, this almost trivializes your choices from an RTS standpoint. To me, it leads to the conclusion that the choices you make based on an RTS standpoint don't ultimately affect your game outcome as the shooter identity must take precedence over the RTS element. This is a fundamental change from the gameplay design of NS1 and to me that leads to the issues I see arising based on some of the topics some I've seen created such as <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117507" target="_blank">An RTS without consequences</a>
I think they want choices to matter, but not be the deciding factor in a game. The shooter wins in the end.
a) Onos is implemented ...Exo is not
b) Performance ...It is hard to aim with missing frames.
a) Onos is implemented ...Exo is not
b) Performance ...It is hard to aim with missing frames.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's why dev should adjust Res flows of aliens. With proper pres-production, onos will not come that fast
I sorta agree with this part (even though aliens have a commander too) because combat is so much easier for aliens than marines with how the game's performance is. Things like "few skulks beating many marines" don't make sense from a design standpoint, but they're common.
Ultimately, landing bites/swipes is a lot easier than tracing a lerk with the rifle, but you can overcome that perceived imbalance with practice and development of your aim. Right now, it's way too difficult to do that for anyone who doesn't have a top-of-the-line computer. The aggregate effect of this is that good players in competitive matches find it much easier to win fights (and thus win the game) as aliens than as marines.
If you start changing the non-aim mechanics of the game to 'fix' that, you will have to change a bunch of other stuff in a month or two when performance is good enough that it could've fixed our current problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1920938:date=Apr 2 2012, 11:03 AM:name=ÒŗăNģё)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ÒŗăNģё @ Apr 2 2012, 11:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How to fix it: Aim at them and kill them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This will be true when more players/servers have acceptable framerates, animations are more clear and so on.
<!--quoteo(post=1920942:date=Apr 2 2012, 11:13 AM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 2 2012, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->however it was easy for me to simply replace the rts few sec after they went down with relative ease<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was probably because you hadn't spent any tres on crags/whips. They're supposed to be equivalent to marine infrastructure, but because of how aliens get map control, you often don't need them except to hold really obnoxious early pushes. Not only can aliens build res towers without players involved (something that probably won't matter at high levels of play once people develop their map awareness and strategy enough), but they have fewer things they *need* to build in order to reach the later stages of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1920994:date=Apr 2 2012, 01:30 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Apr 2 2012, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920994"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 taught me how it's often really difficult to understand the connections inside the game when there are 12 independend pieces with equally many mindsets towards the game interacting with each other constantly. You want to be able to roll back the situations from multiple angles to really understand why things go the way they do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is really true. It's easy to ignore the entire OP and say "nope, the problem is just that marines can't aim and fight effectively", and it's just as easy to say "aliens win a lot and they can win lopsided fights reliably, so we should make sweeping changes to their tech structure and resource model". Both responses are not 'tested' enough to have much credibility (although I personally lean toward the "just shoot 'em" side). Starcraft 2's design is a good example of this idea - there can be blatant imbalance in the game (as dictated by complaining players at X level of skill), but until they have a huge sample of ladder and tournament games, they won't act on anyone's ideas about it.
When Aliens get a 2nd Hive up the drifters and cysts would build at the current rate this would free up the Gorge to do other things like move to the frontline more.
You could probably change a few lines of code and have this implemented next build.
Aliens start with 25 pres, right off the bat.
thats halfway to fade, a minute or two before lerk, and already two and a half gorges.
it skips the early game, but most importantly what this does is it allows aliens to get life forms easily and early.
Unlike rines, who must wait for Tres to up their tech.
today i played an organized game with playtesters, we're on mineshaft as marines and we cut off every harvester but the one in base as soon as the game started. we ended up owning almost every res tower at one point. this didn't stop the fades and lerks from coming ~ the 6 minute mark and wrecking marines.
the original reason for starting with 25 pres? the gorge. but if his abilities become "free"... ?...
Aliens start with 25 pres, right off the bat.
thats halfway to fade, a minute or two before lerk, and already two and a half gorges.
it skips the early game, but most importantly what this does is it allows aliens to get life forms easily and early.
Unlike rines, who must wait for Tres to up their tech.
today i played an organized game with playtesters, we're on mineshaft as marines and we cut off every harvester but the one in base as soon as the game started. we ended up owning almost every res tower at one point. this didn't stop the fades and lerks from coming ~ the 6 minute mark and wrecking marines.
the original reason for starting with 25 pres? the gorge. but if his abilities become "free"... ?...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What should they start with? Marines start with enough to buy shotguns or mines or welders. I would think the lerk is the first real equivalent to those things (in terms of res investment).
The lerk's so good now that it's very much worth investing in it, but not early on (before bile bomb is available). If you don't incentivize the lifeforms that aren't fade/onos people won't buy them, no matter how much you change starting res.
and i'm not saying marines should start out with 25 res and aliens not.
I'm saying, lessen the amount on both. will also help fix that early shotgun issue.
maybe 15 pres? thats halfway to lerk, and still allows mines right away if one or two wanted to throw their res at it?
We really are missing out on the early game.. skulks vs rine doesnt happen so much these days... its insta shotgun and insta lerk.