<!--quoteo(post=1915621:date=Mar 20 2012, 06:50 PM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 20 2012, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm at a loss, how did you come to the conclusion that I made this claim? This is what I said.
"Currently, there's no method to confirm if someone is cheating in NS2 in normal circumstances. However, we do know two things: 1) Cheating is possible and 2) You wouldn't know it if it happened to you on a daily basis."
This is what you said.
You didn't answer my question. At least have the integrity to admit you don't have a method unavailable to everyone else to determine if others are cheating. Your skill is not that method. Until you can see other player's screens, you don't know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Burden of proof lies on the accuser.
If you think people are aimbotting, you have to prove it. Proving that there are aimbots and proving that there are people doesn't prove that people are aimbotting.
<!--quoteo(post=1915625:date=Mar 20 2012, 05:05 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 20 2012, 05:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Burden of proof lies on the accuser.
If you think people are aimbotting, you have to prove it. Proving that there are aimbots and proving that there are people doesn't prove that people are aimbotting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The burden of proof lies on the one making the claim. You have made a claim, Dusk has made a claim, I haven't. You really do have the reading comprehension of a twelve year old.
<!--quoteo(post=1915626:date=Mar 20 2012, 07:07 PM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 20 2012, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The burden of proof lies on the one making the claim. You have made a claim, Dusk has made a claim, I haven't. You really do have the reading comprehension of a twelve year old.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1914539:date=Mar 18 2012, 06:12 AM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 18 2012, 06:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey that's funny because I notice a few players in the beta have resorted to aimbot. It is tough to notice during alien but easy to spot when they are a marine. Is there anything that is going to curve this problem when the game gets release?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a claim to me. Keep on trolling, baddie.
you and your reputable play bullcrap haha. so funny! playing the game for many hours does not automatically make you good, reputable or an authority on such subject. mouth shut, sit up and accept what you got told.
<!--quoteo(post=1915655:date=Mar 20 2012, 04:16 PM:name=NecropsY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NecropsY @ Mar 20 2012, 04:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AM i the only one here that thinks the simple and logical solution is
1'st Person Spectator -
your really not gonna see hackers any other way ;p
edit: also i havent noticed any hackers yet :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1915649:date=Mar 20 2012, 08:04 PM:name=fallout1333)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fallout1333 @ Mar 20 2012, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915649"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love this chaps argument.
"i don't see it, so it is not happening"
lololololol
you and your reputable play bullcrap haha. so funny! playing the game for many hours does not automatically make you good, reputable or an authority on such subject. mouth shut, sit up and accept what you got told.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are retarded. Straight up.
<!--quoteo(post=1915655:date=Mar 20 2012, 08:16 PM:name=NecropsY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NecropsY @ Mar 20 2012, 08:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AM i the only one here that thinks the simple and logical solution is
1'st Person Spectator -
your really not gonna see hackers any other way ;p
edit: also i havent noticed any hackers yet :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1915643:date=Mar 20 2012, 05:51 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 20 2012, 05:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds like a claim to me. Keep on trolling, baddie.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1914507:date=Mar 17 2012, 11:16 PM:name=pachanga)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pachanga @ Mar 17 2012, 11:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I notice a few players in the beta have resorted to aimbot. It is tough to notice during alien but easy to spot when they are a marine. Is there anything that is going to curve this problem when the game gets release?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1914539:date=Mar 18 2012, 04:12 AM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 18 2012, 04:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey that's funny because <b>I notice a few players in the beta have resorted to aimbot. It is tough to notice during alien but easy to spot when they are a marine. Is there anything that is going to curve this problem when the game gets release?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1915323:date=Mar 19 2012, 10:56 PM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 19 2012, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Currently, there's no method to confirm if someone is cheating in NS2 in normal circumstances.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1915621:date=Mar 20 2012, 04:50 PM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 20 2012, 04:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Until you can see other player's screens, you don't know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1915655:date=Mar 20 2012, 06:16 PM:name=NecropsY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NecropsY @ Mar 20 2012, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AM i the only one here that thinks the simple and logical solution is
1'st Person Spectator -
your really not gonna see hackers any other way ;p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
endarJoin Date: 2010-07-27Member: 73256Members, Squad Five Blue
Is anyone else having trouble reading this thread due to hampton and GORGEous?
The problem isnt the content (although a bit feisty), but the fact that GORGEous has a gorge in his name, while hampton has a gorge in his picture. Who's with me!
ÒŗăNģёJoin Date: 2012-02-09Member: 144437Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Everyone is aware that the engine code is completely open to modding right? Just because you don't "see" someone hacking doesn't mean it isn't among us. I personally haven't encountered an aimbot or wall hack since maybe the 160/170 builds but I have no doubt that people are still doing it.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1915801:date=Mar 21 2012, 08:34 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Mar 21 2012, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread should have been locked, so long ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> swalk aimbots*!
<!--quoteo(post=1915906:date=Mar 21 2012, 08:47 AM:name=BJHBnade_spammer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BJHBnade_spammer @ Mar 21 2012, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915906"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yep getting off topic and we are now just feeding the trolls definitely needs to be locked. lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With all due respect, the one thing you may not say is there are multiple trolls in this thread. While this is a troll thread, which I shared several pages back, most everyone who has replied thus far has at least tried to contribute. Dusk and Gorgeous may have shared the same bad assumption, but they appear to have agreed with me, perhaps without realizing, that they do not know whether anyone is cheating yet, and will not know until first person spectating is implemented. I'll assume you two have conceded this point unless there's a response.
You may not call me a troll nor may you call Gorgeous a troll, that needs to be made clear. Gorgeous, in all his frivolousness, just tried to give his opinion, albeit multiple times, and defend it. He defended his position poorly because it was a house of cards from the start. He believes I trolled this thread because I satirized the OP in my first post. I'm afraid you can't break what's already broken buddy.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1915566:date=Mar 20 2012, 12:32 PM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 20 2012, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What method do you have to know whether someone is cheating in NS2 that everyone else doesn't? You're making the same bad assumption as the other gentleman. It was just demonstrated today that it is indeed easy to cheat, my first point. Is the second point difficult to understand?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While cheating is possible, that doesn't mean people will do it. The benefit/cost for making NS2 cheats right now is pretty poor due to the low playerbase and bugs. Cheats will suffer from the same problems that plague legitimate NS2 mods, namely that each new build may break your mod/cheat and require additional work to fix. It also doesn't help when such accusations are directed towards long-term NS1/NS2 players known to be skilled.
<!--quoteo(post=1916051:date=Mar 21 2012, 04:01 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 21 2012, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While cheating is possible, that doesn't mean people will do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1915323:date=Mar 19 2012, 10:56 PM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 19 2012, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For context, over the last decade in FPS hundreds of thousands if not upwards of a million cheaters have been caught.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> History says otherwise. Collectively, ACC have detected upwards of a million cheaters. VAC alone has almost a million bans.
<!--quoteo(post=1916051:date=Mar 21 2012, 04:01 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 21 2012, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The benefit/cost for making NS2 cheats right now is pretty poor due to the low playerbase and bugs. Cheats will suffer from the same problems that plague legitimate NS2 mods, namely that each new build may break your mod/cheat and require additional work to fix.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you implying you know the mind of every cheater? Their motives? What do you have available to you that I don't to know this? Additionally, for many years multiplayer games plagued by cheats have been patched. Can you name me a single game that permanently stopped cheating with one? You're making an argument that someone wouldn't bother to make a cheat, yet if you look a few pages back, you will see you're wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1916051:date=Mar 21 2012, 04:01 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 21 2012, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It also doesn't help when such accusations are directed towards long-term NS1/NS2 players known to be skilled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No one has <b>seriously</b> accused anyone by name of cheating even once here.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1916063:date=Mar 21 2012, 02:50 PM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 21 2012, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->History says otherwise. Collectively, ACC have detected upwards of a million cheaters. VAC alone has almost a million bans.
Are you implying you know the mind of every cheater? Their motives? What do you have available to you that I don't to know this? Additionally, for many years multiplayer games plagued by cheats have been patched. Can you name me a single game that permanently stopped cheating with one? You're making an argument that someone wouldn't bother to make a cheat, yet if you look a few pages back, you will see you're wrong.
No one has <b>seriously</b> accused anyone by name of cheating even once here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can never fully stop cheating, just reduce its frequency/severity. UWE has already stated that they will institute a client-side check/anti-cheat system at some point, so the question I have 'Is cheating so widespread and game-breaking in NS2 right now that they should do it now instead of later?' If you could demonstrate to me that rampant wallhax/aimbots were making NS2 beta gameplay terrible, then I'd concede something needs to be done.
The only time I thought that some type of client consistency/anti-cheat system needed to be implemented immediately was before the (now defunct) NS2HD beta tournament. Otherwise, I see other issues (performance, bugs, imbalances) are more pressing matters than cheating.
<!--quoteo(post=1916065:date=Mar 21 2012, 05:02 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 21 2012, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can never fully stop cheating, just reduce its frequency/severity. UWE has already stated that they will institute a client-side check/anti-cheat system at some point,<b> so the question I have 'Is cheating so widespread and game-breaking in NS2 right now that they should do it now instead of later?' If you could demonstrate to me that rampant wallhax/aimbots were making NS2 beta gameplay terrible, then I'd concede something needs to be done.</b>
The only time I thought that some type of client consistency/anti-cheat system needed to be implemented immediately was before the (now defunct) NS2HD beta tournament. Otherwise, I see other issues (performance, bugs, imbalances) are more pressing matters than cheating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm beginning to wonder if you're intentionally trying me or just thick.
My entire argument has been that you can not make good assumptions about the state of cheating in this game yet, there is no method to know, there is no first person spectating. How would I demonstrate cheating to you?
If you think this is important, by all means address it. CS:GO is also in beta and has confirmed cheating. This is because of first person spectating. Do you think it was smart for Hidden Path Ent. to incorporate this prior to making the game feature complete? Think about that and you'll answer your own question.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1916075:date=Mar 21 2012, 03:25 PM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 21 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm beginning to wonder if you're intentionally trying me or just thick.
My entire argument has been that you can not make good assumptions about the state of cheating in this game yet, there is no method to know, there is no first person spectating. How would I demonstrate cheating to you?
If you think this is important, by all means address it. CS:GO is also in beta and has confirmed cheating. This is because of first person spectating. Do you think it was smart for Hidden Path Ent. to incorporate this prior to making the game feature complete? Think about that and you'll answer your own question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While determining cheating without first person spectating is difficult, there are symptoms of cheating that should show up if its truly prevalent. For example: - Extremely high and consistent KDR - Very low melee/ranged miss rates - Consistent ability to track players behind obstructions (its somewhat possible to check this via thirdperson)
Of course, its hard to distinguish whether the above characteristics are because of a cheat or just a very skilled player. In other games with first-person spectating, these are the types of things that would raise potential cheater red flags for me (and necessitate further checking). Sometimes, the cheating is simply blatant (like this guy I caught in <a href="http://youtu.be/EJbFXTQvjGY" target="_blank">Nuclear Dawn</a>).
Since we really have no data to go on, the next best option are anecdotes and personal experience. In both cases, I have to say that most of the potential instances of 'cheating' I've encountered or heard about can usually be attributed to non-cheating alternatives (lag, skilled player, game imbalance, etc). For example, if someone complains about being killed from around a corner (a red flag), but I see their ping is in the 200+ range and the server is tanking (<10 ticks/s), most likely they are suffering from laggy client-side predication than an aimbotter.
<!--quoteo(post=1916092:date=Mar 22 2012, 12:54 AM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Mar 22 2012, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope the come out with a system like people did for BF. Where you can get a screen shot of the person screen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats is punkbuster. But this screenshot thing is weird sometimes, for example black screens or fragments because you alt-tabbed. Inspecting all those screens is a lot of work if you have 100s of players joining during the day. Alot if ppl got banned in AA3 because of graphical artifacts that were interp. as minimalistic wallhacking.
What I would like to see is a partnership with valve, so if you cheat in NS2 you will also be banned in all Source Games.
<!--quoteo(post=1916087:date=Mar 21 2012, 05:46 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 21 2012, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While determining cheating without first person spectating is difficult, there are symptoms of cheating that should show up if its truly prevalent. For example: - Extremely high and consistent KDR - Very low melee/ranged miss rates - Consistent ability to track players behind obstructions (its somewhat possible to check this via thirdperson)
<b>Of course, its hard to distinguish whether the above characteristics are because of a cheat or just a very skilled player.</b> In other games with first-person spectating, these are the types of things that would raise potential cheater red flags for me (and necessitate further checking). Sometimes, the cheating is simply blatant (like this guy I caught in <a href="http://youtu.be/EJbFXTQvjGY" target="_blank">Nuclear Dawn</a>).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason why you say that cheating is blatant, indeed the reason you were confident enough to record it, is first person spectating. There would be no conclusive evidence without it. As you pointed out yourself, high score and good aim aren't decisive.
<!--quoteo(post=1916087:date=Mar 21 2012, 05:46 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 21 2012, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since we really have no data to go on, the next best option are anecdotes and personal experience. In both cases, I have to say that most of the potential instances of 'cheating' I've encountered or heard about can usually be attributed to non-cheating alternatives (lag, skilled player, game imbalance, etc). For example, if someone complains about being killed from around a corner (a red flag), but I see their ping is in the 200+ range and the server is tanking (<10 ticks/s), most likely they are suffering from laggy client-side predication than an aimbotter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are putting your cart before your horse. In the absence of evidence, relying on hearsay and anecdotes is not the next best option. You're making the same mistake Dusk and Gorgeous already made. The best course of action is to suspend judgement and acknowledge what facts we have. If you disagree with the two facts I presented, or think you can establish better one's, the floor is yours.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1916157:date=Mar 21 2012, 06:07 PM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 21 2012, 06:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are putting your cart before your horse. In the absence of evidence, relying on hearsay and anecdotes is not the next best option. You're making the same mistake Dusk and Gorgeous already made. The best course of action is to suspend judgement and acknowledge what facts we have. If you disagree with the two facts I presented, or think you can establish better one's, the floor is yours.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is when a decision needs to be made. In my view, the point of this whole thread is to determine how highly UWE should prioritize actions to reduce cheating in NS2. However, the urgency of the need is dependent on the prevalence and severity of cheating in the current beta. The decision is thusly, (A) If cheating is widespread and game-breaking, action needs to be taken sooner (B) If cheating is not widespread or game-breaking, action can be taken later
If we had first-person spectating/some other way to collect data on NS2 cheating, the correct choice would be more obvious. In lieu of that, we can only rely on hearsay and anecdotes, which isn't great, but its better than nothing. From my personal experiences, B is the correct decision at this time.
Comments
"Currently, there's no method to confirm if someone is cheating in NS2 in normal circumstances. However, we do know two things: 1) Cheating is possible and 2) You wouldn't know it if it happened to you on a daily basis."
This is what you said.
You didn't answer my question. At least have the integrity to admit you don't have a method unavailable to everyone else to determine if others are cheating. Your skill is not that method. Until you can see other player's screens, you don't know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Burden of proof lies on the accuser.
If you think people are aimbotting, you have to prove it. Proving that there are aimbots and proving that there are people doesn't prove that people are aimbotting.
If you think people are aimbotting, you have to prove it. Proving that there are aimbots and proving that there are people doesn't prove that people are aimbotting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The burden of proof lies on the one making the claim. You have made a claim, Dusk has made a claim, I haven't. You really do have the reading comprehension of a twelve year old.
<!--quoteo(post=1914539:date=Mar 18 2012, 06:12 AM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 18 2012, 06:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey that's funny because I notice a few players in the beta have resorted to aimbot. It is tough to notice during alien but easy to spot when they are a marine. Is there anything that is going to curve this problem when the game gets release?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a claim to me. Keep on trolling, baddie.
"i don't see it, so it is not happening"
lololololol
you and your reputable play bullcrap haha. so funny! playing the game for many hours does not automatically make you good, reputable or an authority on such subject. mouth shut, sit up and accept what you got told.
1'st Person Spectator -
your really not gonna see hackers any other way ;p
edit: also i havent noticed any hackers yet :p
1'st Person Spectator -
your really not gonna see hackers any other way ;p
edit: also i havent noticed any hackers yet :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A perfectly reasonable solution.
"i don't see it, so it is not happening"
lololololol
you and your reputable play bullcrap haha. so funny! playing the game for many hours does not automatically make you good, reputable or an authority on such subject. mouth shut, sit up and accept what you got told.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are retarded. Straight up.
<!--quoteo(post=1915655:date=Mar 20 2012, 08:16 PM:name=NecropsY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NecropsY @ Mar 20 2012, 08:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AM i the only one here that thinks the simple and logical solution is
1'st Person Spectator -
your really not gonna see hackers any other way ;p
edit: also i havent noticed any hackers yet :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First person spectator is definitely needed.
<!--quoteo(post=1914507:date=Mar 17 2012, 11:16 PM:name=pachanga)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pachanga @ Mar 17 2012, 11:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I notice a few players in the beta have resorted to aimbot. It is tough to notice during alien but easy to spot when they are a marine. Is there anything that is going to curve this problem when the game gets release?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1914539:date=Mar 18 2012, 04:12 AM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 18 2012, 04:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey that's funny because <b>I notice a few players in the beta have resorted to aimbot. It is tough to notice during alien but easy to spot when they are a marine. Is there anything that is going to curve this problem when the game gets release?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are a lost cause. Another child left behind.
<!--quoteo(post=1915621:date=Mar 20 2012, 04:50 PM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 20 2012, 04:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Until you can see other player's screens, you don't know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1915655:date=Mar 20 2012, 06:16 PM:name=NecropsY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NecropsY @ Mar 20 2012, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AM i the only one here that thinks the simple and logical solution is
1'st Person Spectator -
your really not gonna see hackers any other way ;p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great idea.
The problem isnt the content (although a bit feisty), but the fact that GORGEous has a gorge in his name, while hampton has a gorge in his picture. Who's with me!
I personally haven't encountered an aimbot or wall hack since maybe the 160/170 builds but I have no doubt that people are still doing it.
There is no reason to be so aggressive pal
swalk aimbots*!
* he told me!
* he told me!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SHH! Don't tell everyone! You'll blow my cover!
With all due respect, the one thing you may not say is there are multiple trolls in this thread. While this is a troll thread, which I shared several pages back, most everyone who has replied thus far has at least tried to contribute. Dusk and Gorgeous may have shared the same bad assumption, but they appear to have agreed with me, perhaps without realizing, that they do not know whether anyone is cheating yet, and will not know until first person spectating is implemented. I'll assume you two have conceded this point unless there's a response.
You may not call me a troll nor may you call Gorgeous a troll, that needs to be made clear. Gorgeous, in all his frivolousness, just tried to give his opinion, albeit multiple times, and defend it. He defended his position poorly because it was a house of cards from the start. He believes I trolled this thread because I satirized the OP in my first post. I'm afraid you can't break what's already broken buddy.
Cheers.
While cheating is possible, that doesn't mean people will do it. The benefit/cost for making NS2 cheats right now is pretty poor due to the low playerbase and bugs. Cheats will suffer from the same problems that plague legitimate NS2 mods, namely that each new build may break your mod/cheat and require additional work to fix. It also doesn't help when such accusations are directed towards long-term NS1/NS2 players known to be skilled.
<!--quoteo(post=1915323:date=Mar 19 2012, 10:56 PM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Mar 19 2012, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For context, over the last decade in FPS hundreds of thousands if not upwards of a million cheaters have been caught.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
History says otherwise. Collectively, ACC have detected upwards of a million cheaters. VAC alone has almost a million bans.
<!--quoteo(post=1916051:date=Mar 21 2012, 04:01 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 21 2012, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The benefit/cost for making NS2 cheats right now is pretty poor due to the low playerbase and bugs. Cheats will suffer from the same problems that plague legitimate NS2 mods, namely that each new build may break your mod/cheat and require additional work to fix.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you implying you know the mind of every cheater? Their motives? What do you have available to you that I don't to know this? Additionally, for many years multiplayer games plagued by cheats have been patched. Can you name me a single game that permanently stopped cheating with one? You're making an argument that someone wouldn't bother to make a cheat, yet if you look a few pages back, you will see you're wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1916051:date=Mar 21 2012, 04:01 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 21 2012, 04:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It also doesn't help when such accusations are directed towards long-term NS1/NS2 players known to be skilled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one has <b>seriously</b> accused anyone by name of cheating even once here.
Are you implying you know the mind of every cheater? Their motives? What do you have available to you that I don't to know this? Additionally, for many years multiplayer games plagued by cheats have been patched. Can you name me a single game that permanently stopped cheating with one? You're making an argument that someone wouldn't bother to make a cheat, yet if you look a few pages back, you will see you're wrong.
No one has <b>seriously</b> accused anyone by name of cheating even once here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can never fully stop cheating, just reduce its frequency/severity. UWE has already stated that they will institute a client-side check/anti-cheat system at some point, so the question I have 'Is cheating so widespread and game-breaking in NS2 right now that they should do it now instead of later?' If you could demonstrate to me that rampant wallhax/aimbots were making NS2 beta gameplay terrible, then I'd concede something needs to be done.
The only time I thought that some type of client consistency/anti-cheat system needed to be implemented immediately was before the (now defunct) NS2HD beta tournament. Otherwise, I see other issues (performance, bugs, imbalances) are more pressing matters than cheating.
The only time I thought that some type of client consistency/anti-cheat system needed to be implemented immediately was before the (now defunct) NS2HD beta tournament. Otherwise, I see other issues (performance, bugs, imbalances) are more pressing matters than cheating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm beginning to wonder if you're intentionally trying me or just thick.
My entire argument has been that you can not make good assumptions about the state of cheating in this game yet, there is no method to know, there is no first person spectating. How would I demonstrate cheating to you?
If you think this is important, by all means address it. CS:GO is also in beta and has confirmed cheating. This is because of first person spectating. Do you think it was smart for Hidden Path Ent. to incorporate this prior to making the game feature complete? Think about that and you'll answer your own question.
My entire argument has been that you can not make good assumptions about the state of cheating in this game yet, there is no method to know, there is no first person spectating. How would I demonstrate cheating to you?
If you think this is important, by all means address it. CS:GO is also in beta and has confirmed cheating. This is because of first person spectating. Do you think it was smart for Hidden Path Ent. to incorporate this prior to making the game feature complete? Think about that and you'll answer your own question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While determining cheating without first person spectating is difficult, there are symptoms of cheating that should show up if its truly prevalent. For example:
- Extremely high and consistent KDR
- Very low melee/ranged miss rates
- Consistent ability to track players behind obstructions (its somewhat possible to check this via thirdperson)
Of course, its hard to distinguish whether the above characteristics are because of a cheat or just a very skilled player. In other games with first-person spectating, these are the types of things that would raise potential cheater red flags for me (and necessitate further checking). Sometimes, the cheating is simply blatant (like this guy I caught in <a href="http://youtu.be/EJbFXTQvjGY" target="_blank">Nuclear Dawn</a>).
Since we really have no data to go on, the next best option are anecdotes and personal experience. In both cases, I have to say that most of the potential instances of 'cheating' I've encountered or heard about can usually be attributed to non-cheating alternatives (lag, skilled player, game imbalance, etc). For example, if someone complains about being killed from around a corner (a red flag), but I see their ping is in the 200+ range and the server is tanking (<10 ticks/s), most likely they are suffering from laggy client-side predication than an aimbotter.
Thats is punkbuster. But this screenshot thing is weird sometimes, for example black screens or fragments because you alt-tabbed. Inspecting all those screens is a lot of work if you have 100s of players joining during the day.
Alot if ppl got banned in AA3 because of graphical artifacts that were interp. as minimalistic wallhacking.
What I would like to see is a partnership with valve, so if you cheat in NS2 you will also be banned in all Source Games.
- Extremely high and consistent KDR
- Very low melee/ranged miss rates
- Consistent ability to track players behind obstructions (its somewhat possible to check this via thirdperson)
<b>Of course, its hard to distinguish whether the above characteristics are because of a cheat or just a very skilled player.</b> In other games with first-person spectating, these are the types of things that would raise potential cheater red flags for me (and necessitate further checking). Sometimes, the cheating is simply blatant (like this guy I caught in <a href="http://youtu.be/EJbFXTQvjGY" target="_blank">Nuclear Dawn</a>).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason why you say that cheating is blatant, indeed the reason you were confident enough to record it, is first person spectating. There would be no conclusive evidence without it. As you pointed out yourself, high score and good aim aren't decisive.
<!--quoteo(post=1916087:date=Mar 21 2012, 05:46 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 21 2012, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1916087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since we really have no data to go on, the next best option are anecdotes and personal experience. In both cases, I have to say that most of the potential instances of 'cheating' I've encountered or heard about can usually be attributed to non-cheating alternatives (lag, skilled player, game imbalance, etc). For example, if someone complains about being killed from around a corner (a red flag), but I see their ping is in the 200+ range and the server is tanking (<10 ticks/s), most likely they are suffering from laggy client-side predication than an aimbotter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are putting your cart before your horse. In the absence of evidence, relying on hearsay and anecdotes is not the next best option. You're making the same mistake Dusk and Gorgeous already made. The best course of action is to suspend judgement and acknowledge what facts we have. If you disagree with the two facts I presented, or think you can establish better one's, the floor is yours.
It is when a decision needs to be made. In my view, the point of this whole thread is to determine how highly UWE should prioritize actions to reduce cheating in NS2. However, the urgency of the need is dependent on the prevalence and severity of cheating in the current beta. The decision is thusly,
(A) If cheating is widespread and game-breaking, action needs to be taken sooner
(B) If cheating is not widespread or game-breaking, action can be taken later
If we had first-person spectating/some other way to collect data on NS2 cheating, the correct choice would be more obvious. In lieu of that, we can only rely on hearsay and anecdotes, which isn't great, but its better than nothing. From my personal experiences, B is the correct decision at this time.
Add Firstperson-Spectate now, add Anti-cheat anytime else, Topic done.
(Personally I've not noticed any cheaters yet though).