I am lol-ing at Fade spokesman
Classic319
Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Members
Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Members
<div class="IPBDescription">jetpack? heavy?</div>I remember that once every fade fans said that fade is so weak and so balanced because JETPACK would be implemented soon, and kept saying Jetpack would kill all the fades. But now?
They are again keep saying fade is so weak and balanced because HEAVY/EXOSUITS will be implemented.
LOL So what? Should marines always build so expensive Protolab and both Jetpack and Heavy and more upgrades just encounter just one or two good fades??
I don't care if players who are not good at fade keep dying and thinking it's already weak,
However, it's definately wrong that there are still at least one or two fades dominating all the game like 50 kills and 0 death. (Just like past NS1)
That happens of course they are good, but another, the most important reason of it is that it's just imbalanced, not because some stuffs are not implemented yet.
I remember even UWE were considering about imbalance because of just one or two fantastic jetpacks and fades, as it ruins the teamplay-based game. Of course something is changed. Jetpack got slowed, yeah, but Fade got invisibility and could be invunerable with some movement skills again!
I don't care how many shotgun shots are needed to kill fade. I know they have less health than they used to have, but, there are still fade-heros out there, even worse than NS1!! and that means it's never balanced yet.
p.s. As i mentioned at the top, the fact that you said or are saying like "Jetpack would solve the op-fade" "Exosuit will solve the op-fade" is itself proving that Fade is still overpowered.
i already heard and saw at dev-tracker that UWE are taking care of IMBA of Fade or something, i really appreciate with it, but i write this because there are still some guys that are really honestly thinking Fade is balanced and keep saying 'new stuff would solve!' just like somebodies half of year ago.
They are again keep saying fade is so weak and balanced because HEAVY/EXOSUITS will be implemented.
LOL So what? Should marines always build so expensive Protolab and both Jetpack and Heavy and more upgrades just encounter just one or two good fades??
I don't care if players who are not good at fade keep dying and thinking it's already weak,
However, it's definately wrong that there are still at least one or two fades dominating all the game like 50 kills and 0 death. (Just like past NS1)
That happens of course they are good, but another, the most important reason of it is that it's just imbalanced, not because some stuffs are not implemented yet.
I remember even UWE were considering about imbalance because of just one or two fantastic jetpacks and fades, as it ruins the teamplay-based game. Of course something is changed. Jetpack got slowed, yeah, but Fade got invisibility and could be invunerable with some movement skills again!
I don't care how many shotgun shots are needed to kill fade. I know they have less health than they used to have, but, there are still fade-heros out there, even worse than NS1!! and that means it's never balanced yet.
p.s. As i mentioned at the top, the fact that you said or are saying like "Jetpack would solve the op-fade" "Exosuit will solve the op-fade" is itself proving that Fade is still overpowered.
i already heard and saw at dev-tracker that UWE are taking care of IMBA of Fade or something, i really appreciate with it, but i write this because there are still some guys that are really honestly thinking Fade is balanced and keep saying 'new stuff would solve!' just like somebodies half of year ago.
Comments
The COD players are coming to NS2. The players who bring in KPD whenever they talk about balance. I am thankful for your support of this great game and franchise but please, this is not COD. Just because something can kill you does not make it imbalanced.
Jetpacks drastically underperform the lerk for air to air, cause some problems for other lifeforms but their limited boost capability rapidly brings their users back to earth, and mostly strike me as a novelty item compared to the (similar cost) 4 ARC ground-and-pound approach to breaching anything. Others may experience different return on investment, but a couple of ARCs usually results in serious alien bad day, whereas a bunch of guys zipping through the air usually results in slightly harder meals for the aliens.
But let's not stray too far off-topic, this is a topic about the fade.
The COD players are coming to NS2. The players who bring in KPD whenever they talk about balance. I am thankful for your support of this great game and franchise but please, this is not COD. Just because something can kill you does not make it imbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh great, this game's already getting infested with people who refuse to discuss anything and instead lump everyone else into groups they don't like
The COD players are coming to NS2. The players who bring in KPD whenever they talk about balance. I am thankful for your support of this great game and franchise but please, this is not COD. Just because something can kill you does not make it imbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh.. i have played Natural Selection since 2.0 or maybe 1.0 and i always remember that every dev teams have worried about some so-good players with jetpack or fade and kill everybody and make the game sometimes so vain to play as a team. And it happens still again for NS2, still one or two fades change entire the game even without any of teamplay, that's why i wrote this.
So sad. You got wrong point, completely wrong, and wrong guy to stand against. I am so disappointed and a bit angry to see what you wrote there. I think you should learn how to get the point of the topic or improve your comprehension. It's really serious that you understood what i wrote as complaint of KD rates. Definately silly, dunno what to say because you got so wrong..
What you wrote is kind of a milk which is already spilled, but next time, read the text carefully and try to understand it rightfully, and comment okay? I am actually quite a bit upset.
Yeah, correct! You don't need to think about how bad your teammates are, it's just true that just single-good Fade can change whole the game alone. That's what i complain about, that was the biggest problem of NS1(but the difference is there were also a overpowered/abusable stragedies for marines like turtling and jetpack-heroes, so ns1 was/is sadly quite equal haha), and Dev recognized it already before, and seems trying to solve it, but still happening. So to repeat, and generally speaking, the fact that just one or two good players can change whole the game, is so bad for a game like Natural Selection, which need the best teamplay to win.
If these abusable things still remain, we will definately see really soon every guys at readyroom standing on one side in which the one good player is. Just like past Natural Selection 1.
Exosuits are the hard counter to Fades, Jetpacks are a soft counter to fades and onos.
Fades aren't unbalanced, you just need some well placed shots and lots of team work.
The game isn't perfect, they're still reworking the entire upgrade system for aliens, even going as far as to remove swarm and FRENZY and completely changing the entire upgrade system during the last build patch.
We're playing a beta folks. Offer more suggestions on how to improve the game, and whine a little less. Although I admit sometimes its warranted or tempting.
Feedback is great, contructive feedback is even better. Pointing out things that have been discussed a million times with the same solutions is annoying-ish.
I wonder if the search function for the forums has been fixed, if not... that may be causing the resurfacing of so many old complaints over and over rather than having ppl find these old threads.
Getting back to the point though. Good fades are hard to come by, most of the time a little teamwork, good weapon composition and aiming will take down fades easy peasy. And a good comm will have anticipated fades and gotten armor level 2 or 3.
If you DO come across a good fade, even good fades have some difficulty with jetpacks and will be completely torn apart by exosuits. (like in NS1)
Until then... just enjoy the game for what it is:
An amazing game in its closed beta stage, made by a handful of developers, trying something truly innovative in a gaming industry that is pretty much crap in this day and age.
A Message to UWE DEVELOPERS:
The forum search function, is it still broken? Can it be fixed? If so, when? I think it would be very useful for a lot of newcomers and ns1/ns2 vets alike.
You also mentioned NS1, but Jetpack of NS1 was no opponent against Lerk... haha Lerk could never stand against jetpack lol. Jetpack was perfect against Onos, and really useful to kick fades out of sights. And 'that' was the problem of NS1, because just one good jetpacker with HMG could dominate all the kharra players and even hives. And i wrote this because it's happening still on NS2 with Fades! They nerfed jetpack but didn't nerf the fade.
And worse, marines or jetpackers cannot carry any single HMG anymore in NS2. It's sometimes even more efficient just walk around with shotgun and face fade, rather than jetpack without any long-range weapons to kill lifeforms.
It's true the topic looks like whining, but what i wrote is i think the most important issue for whole Natural Selection franchise. Please stop looking just a cover or the first sentence of it, it's not about KD rate or whining, but it's about getting rid of selfish-playable things in NS2. To mention just two(jetpack/fade) which were at previous Natural Selection so problem because they sometime ruin the teamplay or make teamplay so vain, i think Jetpacks are for now nerfed a lot and that's good because they finally are needing teamplay, but fades are still never. And even worse.
And basically i am saying about Pub-games, not Pro-games.
Might want to run those two halves of a sentence past each other, then restate your thesis. I'm not sure exactly what you're saying.
I am talking about some problems that a single jetpack or fade could dominate all and change the result of game at previous Natural Selection.
And now, jetpacks aren't able to do that anymore, i appreciate that, but fades can do that still, that's what i dislike so i wrote these whole things.
And now, jetpacks aren't able to do that anymore, i appreciate that, but fades can do that still, that's what i dislike so i wrote these whole things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I highly disagree with this point. A jetpacker can still evade skulks with ease, more so because they're slower now, solo a onos easily, and overpower the lerks spikes. That, coupled with Rine super sprint and grenade launcher attachment make it still a force to be reckoned with. The problem is getting used to the Jetpack movement, but those who master it still can take on a hive easily. Fade is just easier to use, currently.
Jetpacks drastically underperform the lerk for air to air, cause some problems for other lifeforms but their limited boost capability rapidly brings their users back to earth, and mostly strike me as a novelty item compared to the (similar cost) 4 ARC ground-and-pound approach to breaching anything. Others may experience different return on investment, but a couple of ARCs usually results in serious alien bad day, whereas a bunch of guys zipping through the air usually results in slightly harder meals for the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spot on. The jetpacks really needs to fill a bigger role, a viable and lucrative strategic option rather than just being the cherry on top as you said. I mean, it's friggin jetpacks! They're just too god damn awesome to just be a rare treat for a winning marine team. But yeah, this stuff will surely be fixed, balanced and tweaked longer down the road.
Yes I also find this quite a strange notion. Jetpacks are quite clearly only for mobility. The counter to fades is high damage output so that they can be killed before they blink out of combat and heal. Jetpacks work to <b>reduce</b> the damage output of marines due to the faster and more erratic movements.
<!--quoteo(post=1914807:date=Mar 19 2012, 03:36 AM:name=Classic319)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Classic319 @ Mar 19 2012, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So sad. You got wrong point, completely wrong, and wrong guy to stand against. I am so disappointed and a bit angry to see what you wrote there. I think you should learn how to get the point of the topic or improve your comprehension. It's really serious that you understood what i wrote as complaint of KD rates. Definately silly, dunno what to say because you got so wrong..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, here's a tip: never use kills per death in any argument involving natural selection. Its a good way to get your post completely ignored by anyone who knows how this game works. Does it mean that everything you wrote is invalid? No, it doesn't, but it means there's an extremely good chance that you don't know what the hell is going on because you think how often you kill or die makes any difference to anything. If this were the case, the marine commander would be the most imbalanced unit in the game, as his turrets can kill masses of enemies while hardly ever being killed himself. The Onos basically needs to be removed with his 1000000 health versus little marines.
By mentioning KPD, you give me the feeling that you've just been especially owned by a fade one round and need to vent. The truth is that you are going to be killed by that fade, and you probably won't even kill the fade, and you shouldn't need to. Fades harass marines. That's all they do. Ok so a Fade blinks in and kills everyone, now what is it going to do? Spend the next 10 minutes trying to kill a power node with its pathetic damage to structures? Fades are strategically balanced; strong vs marines, but with no other uses. You just aren't seeing the bigger picture. You are too focused on how the fade kills you, because you care about your KPD.
They aren't really equivalent. 3 alien RTs can be compared to 4 or 5 marine RTs because marines can take any res tower they want, while aliens need to spread to the node. Marines also tend to defend their res towers far more efficiently. Give marines 4 or 5 unharrassed RTs and you can bet you are going to have a serious problem quite soon.
Its also important to remember that marines have the advantage early game. If the aliens survive that, and marines can't survive the shift in power, then maybe they don't deserve to.
Thats all well and good, but the nature of the game is that by 2 minutes in, the alien team has spent a considerable amount of resources to cap two res nodes, creating a structure which spans a good 20% of the map and is thus obviously susceptible to attack. On the other hand, the marine team is likely to have hit up every res node on the map, failing at some, but capping most.
The marine team is simply better and taking and keeping res nodes, the aliens are more economical in their spending. That is the nature of an asymetric game, it has nothing to do with "outplaying". You play to your strengths, and considering 1 alien extractor equal to 1 marine extractor is ignoring a very prominent strength of the marine team.
Oh again somebody not getting what i am saying. How could you understand this as k/d ratio argument? Such a ridiculous comprehension you have. Maybe i wrote a bit wrong, but read it carefully. I don´t care if those 70kills/0death fades do not affect the round, but the fact is they affect a lot.
I am always commanding while playing NS2, and i used to play as commander also at NS1. Therefore i am not that guys who get dominated by fade and whining, but watching my teammates dominate or get dominated as or by fade. So just stop saying as if you are so right. I am being upset again what you say. What you say means straight that UWE devs are themselves those guys whining at Fade, as they recognized since early stage of previous NS1 that it´s real problem that single jetpack(not anymore at NS2) or Fade can dominatte all the game and make the TEAMPLAY so VAIN.
Improve your comprehension or just stop comment like that. That´s kind of so rude. I know there are also IMBA for marines, but i am now saying about fade which ruins teamplay sometimes by real pro-fade. I can say i was one of them at previous NS1, and therefore i play only for commander now, as i think harrasment of fade in NS2 is inappropriate as they also have commander.
Just simply think about it. You are doing good as commander, and players are following you so good, but you lose just by one fade who kills 70 of our team and never dies. That should not be happened. And i don´t know if you have ever played NS1, but that was always the worst problem of it and UWE tried to solve it a lot and i now encourage them to do that again.
I repeat, you should understand this topic as this way, not the way just like you whining against IMBA : I am not whining at all. But i just wanna teamplay for both teams become more organic. And Fade makes sometimes at least for marines so vain to play as a team. That´s why i wrote this. (how much should i repeat what i already said?!)
I heard that people who whine always look every argument as whining. And there are till now including you TWO of them in this topic :)
We don't yet have the Minigun in the game. The minigun (not Exo) is the counter to fades, and thus I don't feel you can honestly say YET, that the fades are overpowered, especially as any weaknesses added to the fade now, will be massively exaggerated when the bigger weapons are released.
Marines still have Minigun & Exo (which includes Dual Minigun, RailGun and Dual Railguns) to be implemented. These High DPS weapons are a fades counter, as is a lvl 2 shotty. Currently, lvl 2 armor and shots, helps teams against most fades, but as NS1, good fades can still dominate. In NS1, if you had a good fade dominating, you got the HMGs out. I am sure NS2 will eventually have a similar sort of balance, although I hope that neither a good fade, nor a good jp/mg will be able to solo a team once all the balance features are in, unless the players are extremely good.
I love the way that everyone concentrates on the fade, but doesn't moan about the Ono's, which in good hands, a SINGLE onos, can win the game on his own in a matter of secs. The fade takes forever to take down buildings so needs assistance, Onos tanks players and buildings, and yet no-one moans about the Onos?
I'm not saying fade balance is badly broken; i just think it needs to be changed to do less damage per swipe, have more HP, and always be vulnerable. I think it should also be unchained from the second hive. They can keep the currently blink effect just make it slightly visible and vulnerable, and i think it would be fine. I do think that one skilled played should be able to influence the gameplay, i like that design.
Now, one can like it or not, but anyway I think the path taken to balance it, namely putting long cooldowns on blink and swipe is pretty horrible.
If you had a really good fade in NS1, it took at least 3 rines to handle them (All 3 need to land a shot with the SG very quickly). The same goes in NS2, there is no change on the SG vs Fade mechanic. For owning the whole team, including hives, the JP used a HMG. This was the unstoppable combination that tore aliens a new food exit point. I expect this to be the same in NS2.
For those who still think NS1 was the epitome of balance (it most certainly wasn't) then yes, JP's and SG's should also dominate the whole game, but I think NS1 was way out of balance with the JP domination, it gave too much advantage. Skulk and lerk kills vs JP in NS1 were too hard, almost to the point that JP was a GG moment in good hands. Thats not right, fade doesn't own buildings, but in NS1 JP/SG could own everything, but that was a result of the original being unbalanced, and should not be used as an example to balance NS2.
High DPS is what kills the fade. Upgraded shotties who can aim, or a high ROF MG is what takes down a fade.
<!--quoteo(post=1914963:date=Mar 19 2012, 01:01 PM:name=Mkk_Bitestuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Mar 19 2012, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914963"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cannot compare the NS2 jp to NS1, as the NS2 jp is really quite trash in comparison.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See this is where people see the world differently. The NS1 JP was overpowered and unbalanced. The NS2 JP is more in keeping with game balance. You may consider this trashy, I consider it a massive game balancing improvement. NS1 was not a JP it was a flying suit and took skulks and lerks out of the game. That was massively unbalanced.
JPs did not obsolete skulks, there were quite a few skulks that were very good with the leap/air control that could kill good jetpackers easily, especially with focus. Lerks could go either way at that point, however with umbra they could still be effective when used carefully.
Saying that the JP was overpowered is like saying the NS1 fade was, it was all about skillcap and how you used it. I knew someone with the JP that could dodge almost an unlimited amount of aliens indefinably, just because he had mastered the movement and speed so perfectly. That doesnt make the class overpowered, just shows how little of a skillcap it had. There was always someone that could kill you with fade.
Honestly it sounds like at times we played different games, i suggest maybe you watch some of the casts from the last season of ENSL if you havent, while that isnt play quite like when NS1 was at its prime, it shows how the game played at a higher level.
That said, NS2 differs from that and it is fine. However it seems that fade retains some of the ability, made even easier for beginners. However the JP does not have that same ability. All i am asking for is that the fade be looked at to balance it throughout the duration of the game.
Of course the jetpack is not going to be some 1 off solution to fades, exo suits will not be either.
However it does add a significant advantage to just being a ground marine with a rifle.
Only thing i can suggest to you if you fail to kill or at least escape a fade with a jetpack is to get a shotgun and learn how to aim with it. Quickly
You may not kill the fade, but 1 hit from the shotgun and they usually run off like little ###### who just got slapped across the face