5 minute hives

Scuzball · March 2012

<div class="IPBDescription">Catalyze is crazy</div>I just comm'd a game where we had 3 res nodes and a hive completed at 4:58 game time. I foresee Catalyze being adjusted in the next patch.

If the aliens 2nd hive is killed before completing, it's basically game over.

But it brings up a good point: should the game be balanced around 2 hives? Did they want the 2nd hive up so fast intentionally, to make it less of a fulcrum for the rest of the game?

sebu · March 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scuzball @ Mar 16 2012, 05:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I just comm'd a game where we had 3 res nodes and a hive completed at 4:58 game time. I foresee Catalyze being adjusted in the next patch.

If the aliens 2nd hive is killed before completing, it's basically game over.

But it brings up a good point: should the game be balanced around 2 hives? Did they want the 2nd hive up so fast intentionally, to make it less of a fulcrum for the rest of the game?</div>

I think that thers no need to argue of catalyzes role right now. Offcourse feedback is always welcome to UWE though i think (; but its so fresh that it doesn't work as balanced gameplay element just yet.

Scuzball · March 2012

Well I like to play commander on both sides, and I try to think of it from the marine commander's side.

By the time you have your base constructed and your marines are finishing their first res nodes, you have about 3 minutes till fades start gestating...

Not much time to get armor 2 and shotguns is it?

elodea · March 2012

No question this is OP and totally screws with the pacing of the game.

piratedave · March 2012

i dont see the problem ? before this patch the fastest you could get hives up was

2nd hive up at 3 minutes
3rd hive up at 7 minutes

before this patch, if the alien team wasnt getting the hive up within around 5 minutes then they were quite bad.

edit .

sorry didnt see the hive was completed at 5 minutes :o

if so, yeah overpowered :)

player · March 2012

So lifeforms are still tied to hives are they? I thought we learned from NS1 (pre-2.0) that this is a bad idea.

elodea · March 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Mar 16 2012, 09:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913821"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>i dont see the problem ? before this patch the fastest you could get hives up was

2nd hive up at 3 minutes
3rd hive up at 7 minutes

before this patch, if the alien team wasnt getting the hive up within around 5 minutes then they were quite bad.</div>

Nah, previously the hives would begin construction at the times you mention (although 3rd hive is generally later due to the upgrade spurt after 2nd hive), but they would actually take 3 minutes to complete so they were up at 6 and 10 minutes respectively. The OP is saying that the 2nd hive is completing at 5 minutes, 1 minute faster than 6.

rhombus · March 2012

This is known and has been forwarded to the devs already.

.ADHd · March 2012

I can get up a hive in that same amount of time or less without catalyze.

Scuzball · March 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Mar 16 2012, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I can get up a hive in that same amount of time or less without catalyze.</div>

Can you do it with 3 res nodes up and still under 5 minutes?

Shrike3O · March 2012

Are we talking getting it up, or having it complete in that time? Because I've had 2nd hive <i>complete</i> around the 4:55-5:00 mark, and 3rd hive <i>complete</i> +all upgrades by the 8:15 mark on ns2_mineshaft. That's a little wrong.

IeptBarakat · March 2012

Marines can balance it out by rushing and relocating next to the hive and pretty much cutting them off from the rest of the hives. Like quick relocating to crushing room and watch the aliens be unable to secure a single hive. Gotta love the first 3-5 minutes of actual fighting and the rest of the game winning or losing.

swalk · March 2012

This is why the hive cost should be brought back to 100.
To allow aliens to defend the later hives(more troublesome), unlock the high tier lifeforms from hives.
That makes more sense. Since lifeforms gain more abilities with more hives, right?
I've seen aliens recover from losing a hive, even with 100 hivecost.

Shrike3O · March 2012

My new record on ns2_mineshaft is 4:15 for 2hive being up, and 4:32 for my first fade coming online.

Xarius · March 2012

This is stupid, they should aim to make 1-hive play take longer and be more feasible, not shorter and even more desirable.
But I'm sure they'll address it

Soul_Rider · March 2012

In build 199 on mineshaft it was possible to complete the 3rd hive in 7.5mins. Res would normally catch up for onos at 9mins, but comm always had enough res for onos at 7.5 mins.

In this build, with catalize, hive 3 can be up a fraction earlier, but there is no Onos from comm at this time, and also TRes and Com PRes, are significantly lower at 7.5 mins in build 200 than they were in build 199. So aliens are getting tech 3 at same rate, but it costs the team more.

2nd hive is being started later in 200 because of less resources, but is completing quicker than 199 due to catalize. Again, alien team has less res, and less upgrades at 2nd hive. Most alien teams have 5 min fades with very limited, if any upgrades, so they are a lot easier to kill. Marines can counter by shotty, lvl 2 weps, not going for armor as early.

I think a really simple solution would be alter the catalize time based on number of hives. So if you have 2 hives and are building 3rd hive (as it comes in about the same time as build 199) catalize is the same speed as now. However, when you only have one hive, catalize speed is a percentage of that total, random figure with no mathematical thought behind it.. say 70%

If someone did the maths I'm sure it could balance out, without any major scale changes.

Shrike3O · March 2012

It might also work just to prevent Catalyze from working on hives. Having a hive up in ~75 seconds is kind of ridiculous, and seems to kill some of the tense "are they going to find it before it pops?" gameplay that came with dropping a second hive (it does also make the loss of a hive less devastating, though). If the devs think hives take too long to build, and also want to boost the research/build speed on other buildings, just make it so that catalyze works on everything BUT the hive, and simply shorten hive build time to something like 90-120 seconds.

ScardyBob · March 2012

While I think the current 2nd hive fastest times are a bit ridiculous, I do like how catalyze allows me to do something to help get the hive up quicker. One of my biggest frustrations as alien comm is the near helplessness I feel when trying to get a hive built. With catalyze, I feel much more of active role in hive construction (rather than a mostly passive observer counting down the time). So instead of removing catalyze on hives, I'd rather see some other balancing mechanism such as
- Increasing hive cost (maybe to 100 TRes to give a longer single hive time)
- Increasing the catalyze energy cost on hives (so you could only use it two or three times in a row)
- Changing catalyze from using energy to either PRes or TRes (so theirs a tradeoff between a faster hive, more/better chambers/tech, or expanding cysts)

Price · March 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Mar 17 2012, 03:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Are we talking getting it up, or having it complete in that time? Because I've had 2nd hive <i>complete</i> around the 4:55-5:00 mark, and 3rd hive <i>complete</i> +all upgrades by the 8:15 mark on ns2_mineshaft. That's a little wrong.</div>
If you have all Resourcepoints or how much?
I never saw a alien team which has 3rd hive, + all upgrades on mineshaft in 8 minutes.
And if so, marines did a terrible job.
Because if marines scan the techpoints and see a unbuild hive, they can kill the hive faster then its needed to be done.
Im not 100% sure but i test it some days ago and it takes just about 32 seconds to kill one hive with an axe.
Its to late to test it right now but if you compare this with catalyze its fair...and there is no way for aliens to save the hive as alien commander.

Shrike3O · March 2012

This was just holding the north end of the map, Cave/Ore/Crushing and the res nodes at North Hallway and Cavern. Those are basically the frontlines for that map, so the fact that the marines couldn't push into them (in this case, they were fighting through Belt Transfer, which is a popular option but borderline suicidal IMO) is not surprising.

Watching a hive die to one guy with an axe implies that the entire alien team is ignoring the dying hive message. I don't see much of that going on.

MrGunner · March 2012

By having hives able to drop earlier in the game it allows for more depth of gameplay. Both teams need to play more aggresively to attack/defend early hive drops, as it is a riskier play. It is no different than zerg rushing in starcraft, as you are placing a lot of your eggs in one basket and it's do or die to make sure that your team keeps it up. The gamble of it is that you can't know how the marines are teching, or which way on the map they are pressuring so your 2nd hive location may not be the best defensively. It also places heavy pressure on the marine team to deny that hive going up and having to face fades when they may not be teched to kill them easily.

Having it so that the alien side can only drop hives after a certain amount of time into the game makes it easier for marines to counter that hive going up. They can always time their tech for it and make sure that they are always ready for when it is expected to be dropped. That would make the game more linear and less dynamic.

matso · March 2012

The problem with catalyze and hives is that there is nothing more important to do with the catalyze; its not a tradeoff. It is actually just silly not to catalayze the ###### out of a growing hive because halving the hive build time is just too valuable.

So the cost effectiveness is just too high.

The simplest solution is of course to double the hive build time, then force the alien commander to catalyze it down to normal times.

Or not let catalyze affect hives.

Same effect (apart from not having the alien commander reapply catalyze all the time).

Broseidon · March 2012

Does anyone remember when gorges could speed grow hives? Currently they can speed grow all buildings but hives by pressing the E key on them.

noncomposmentis · March 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Mar 18 2012, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The problem with catalyze and hives is that there is nothing more important to do with the catalyze; its not a tradeoff. It is actually just silly not to catalayze the ###### out of a growing hive because halving the hive build time is just too valuable.</div>

Yes exactly. There should really be a tactical reason to use catalyze. Not only would it make using it more of a choice but it would also give comms something to do during fights. Maybe restoring energy or something similar.

MetalGarret · March 2012

I commed a game last night on mineshaft and had 3 hives and all upgrades in less than 10 minutes. Catalyzing every thing I built. Game was over at 11 minutes 23 seconds.

But another thing to keep in mind is that marine speed has been upped and skulk speed has been nerfed SEVERELY. This also plays a part here cause now its a skulk job to not necessarily raid rine base but simply keep them from expanding. Hide in dark corners on ceilings and nose dive into a marine's face. Playing the stealth game. While that's happening, aliens are grabbing nodes and Catalyzing hives.

But on the other hand, if aliens fail to do so and marines rush a hive that's unlamed, skulks take forever to get to its.aide especially if its the second hive that's being attacked while its still dropping. So catalyst should assist with this problem. Seems OP at the moment but if ur gonna snail up skulks...

Shrike3O · March 2012

Per the Mapping thread on ns2_mineshaft, the plan is to slide Ops and Drill Repair basically "up and to the right" one room apiece. Should make for slightly more aggressive marine pushes into either Ore or Crushing, as they'll have much faster access to Central Drilling (IE, not being two rooms + hallways away) and that might lead to a noticeable change in mineshaft's overall dynamic (Marines basically unable to put severe pressure on aliens, at any point, until they've taken/secured one of the alien hive locations).

5 minute hives

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