I like what ScardyBob said, because it is usually what happens. Fades can be killed, it is just that early in the game, I would say that they take too much "human resources" to counter them. You're still trying to expand, and you need marines to build, you lack defensives options (turrets, phase gates, armory) in strategic places, but you need to focus everything on fades, because you lack tools to counter them. All the time you take to fight fades, marines get late in their development, while aliens can continue their expansion with a lot less of problems.
Marines needs a tool to limit fades early, because at that time, they don't have flame/phase gate/jetpack that counter fades. A simple solution would be to make fades vulnerable to mines. I see too often a doorway protected by mines, only to see a fade come through, exploding all the mines without getting any damage and opening the way for the rest of the aliens. What's the point of putting mines if you can remove all of them without any consequences? Make them explode in their time-teleporting ######, and I think it would solve a big part of the problem. Fades stay the same, Marines also, and mines does the job they are really supposed to do.
Gorge used to remove mines at a distance is a great option that enhance that class. Fades used to remove mines instantly seem like a cheap trick that remove values for Gorge, and annihilate completely an honorable defense option for marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1911730:date=Mar 9 2012, 08:34 PM:name=bobrun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bobrun @ Mar 9 2012, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey, noob here taking on the fades!
I like what ScardyBob said, because it is usually what happens. Fades can be killed, it is just that early in the game, I would say that they take too much "human resources" to counter them. You're still trying to expand, and you need marines to build, you lack defensives options (turrets, phase gates, armory) in strategic places, but you need to focus everything on fades, because you lack tools to counter them. All the time you take to fight fades, marines get late in their development, while aliens can continue their expansion with a lot less of problems.
Marines needs a tool to limit fades early, because at that time, they don't have flame/phase gate/jetpack that counter fades. A simple solution would be to make fades vulnerable to mines. I see too often a doorway protected by mines, only to see a fade come through, exploding all the mines without getting any damage and opening the way for the rest of the aliens. What's the point of putting mines if you can remove all of them without any consequences? Make them explode in their time-teleporting ######, and I think it would solve a big part of the problem. Fades stay the same, Marines also, and mines does the job they are really supposed to do.
Gorge used to remove mines at a distance is a great option that enhance that class. Fades used to remove mines instantly seem like a cheap trick that remove values for Gorge, and annihilate completely an honorable defense option for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If marines have a tool to limit fades early and limit fades late, then when are fades useful?
Right now, if fades come out, marines have to turtle on 2-3 RTs and deny 3rd hive. They don't have to beat fades, they just have to not be beaten by fades.
<!--quoteo(post=1911730:date=Mar 9 2012, 06:34 PM:name=bobrun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bobrun @ Mar 9 2012, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey, noob here taking on the fades! Marines needs a tool to limit fades early, because at that time, they don't have flame/phase gate/jetpack that counter fades. A simple solution would be to make fades vulnerable to mines. I see too often a doorway protected by mines, only to see a fade come through, exploding all the mines without getting any damage and opening the way for the rest of the aliens. What's the point of putting mines if you can remove all of them without any consequences? Make them explode in their time-teleporting ######, and I think it would solve a big part of the problem. Fades stay the same, Marines also, and mines does the job they are really supposed to do.
Gorge used to remove mines at a distance is a great option that enhance that class. Fades used to remove mines instantly seem like a cheap trick that remove values for Gorge, and annihilate completely an honorable defense option for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seen this happen way too often. Fades are so fast in stealth that the mines trigger after they've passed over them, rendering them useless.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
if you made mines ignore fades completely i think it might actually work better overall as theres no way to stop a fade from setting them off without consequences, wasting huge amounts of pres from marines. i, personally, will often run through a base setting all of them off with that being my only intention/goal... just to pave the way for skulks.
Just played a game where a fade entered before the skulks into our main base and set off about 7 mines in stealth mode. Skulks entered and finished off the base.
I don't think there should be any weapon that is plain out ineffective against a class. Its the equivalent of having Hydras that can only shoot at marines with flamethrowers.
I think this threat is going in the wrong direction. We can't have our bases from simple calculations, part of what ScardyBob says is true but there are so many other factors we need to consider. Like Res flow, map control, weapons and skill of both teams. A single marine can easily take care of 2 skulks with an lmg, this gets easier with upgrade. At the same time a single skulk can take care of 1-2 marines alone if he times it right. This gets easier when they get leap.
If you read my earlier post i talked about how much energy fades have to play with. Because they have near unlimited blink energy they can easily go all in every time with little risk of dieing. They only effective way to kill a fade right now is burst damage with shotguns. If they do notice their hp is getting low they simply start blinking and marines have no way to block that. Even though the fade can't kill anyone he will still be able to survive, this is one factor that allows aliens to mass up fades.
The other issue is that marines are forced to get armor 2 to take that extra fades from fades which is HUGE. A marine with a shotgun has a chance to get 2 full hits on the fade before going down alone. That means if the fade misses 1 hit there is a high risk of him dieing. -- Fades will still be a powerhouse with these 2 issues fixed. Also when they get their 3rd ability back they can have their energy recharged very fast to keep the pressure on the marines, it will just be harder to manage your energy while fighting. -- Lastly I see allot of chat about marines losing when the 2nd hive goes up. Its true this happens but most of the time its because the marines were already losing or didn't prepare enough. If you see that you are unable to take down the 2nd hive then you should get ready for fades.
<!--quoteo(post=1911738:date=Mar 9 2012, 07:23 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 9 2012, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If marines have a tool to limit fades early and limit fades late, then when are fades useful?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huh? Mines doesn't make skulks irrelevant, I don't see why it should make fades useless.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i, personally, will often run through a base setting all of them off with that being my only intention/goal... just to pave the way for skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, and that's really a big problem. You pay 15 Res to install 3 mines, and they all got blown up for nothing. Without fades blowing everything up, gorge could be a lot more useful in removing mines, or you could always have kamikaze skulks blowing themselves up to open the way for the others aliens. It would make the strategy a lot more interesting.
Anyway, I'm not there to fight, just wanted to share my solution. Instead of nerfing fades or laughing at noob who can't aim, just makes the mines serve their real purpose (blowing up the alien who step on it). Everything stay the same, except that fades need to watch where they go, and marines can pay to have their back covered.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1911738:date=Mar 9 2012, 06:23 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 9 2012, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If marines have a tool to limit fades early and limit fades late, then when are fades useful?
Right now, if fades come out, marines have to turtle on 2-3 RTs and deny 3rd hive. They don't have to beat fades, they just have to not be beaten by fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades will still be useful against those not wearing jetpacks and the intent is to give a marine a viable tech to put them on an equal footing with a fade, not make them more powerful than the fade. Also, normal res restrictions apply such that marines will not be able to buy jetpacks all the time. Its sufficient just to make it where marines can realistically have enough jetpackers to counter the number of enemy fades and then let player skill, the amount of teamwork, and numbers (2v1, 3v4, etc) determine the outcome of any individual battle.
There is also a practical problem with your 'deny the 3rd hive' strategy in that it generally doesn't work. Because of the aforementioned problems with the fade, once the 2nd hive goes up, marines are largely unable to mount an effective offensive without leaving a major outpost (or even their main base) severely underdefended. In fact, as alien comm I regularly try to get my team to rush marine start whenever they try to attack a 3rd/4th/5th hive because its absolutely worth sacrificing a marginal hive to win the game. The only times I've ever seen a marine team win a game where the alien's built and hold their 2nd hive have been when a skill stacked marine team relocates to crushing room on mineshaft to deny the aliens their natural 3rd hive location by literally building their main base there.
<!--quoteo(post=1911751:date=Mar 9 2012, 10:44 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 9 2012, 10:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if you made mines ignore fades completely i think it might actually work better overall as theres no way to stop a fade from setting them off without consequences, wasting huge amounts of pres from marines. i, personally, will often run through a base setting all of them off with that being my only intention/goal... just to pave the way for skulks.
valid strat or exploiting?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely valid strats. Mines are counters to skulks, not higher life forms.
<!--quoteo(post=1911762:date=Mar 9 2012, 11:29 PM:name=bobrun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bobrun @ Mar 9 2012, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Huh? Mines doesn't make skulks irrelevant, I don't see why it should make fades useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said this.
<!--quoteo(post=1911755:date=Mar 9 2012, 11:09 PM:name=Awesomerobo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Awesomerobo @ Mar 9 2012, 11:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just played a game where a fade entered before the skulks into our main base and set off about 7 mines in stealth mode. Skulks entered and finished off the base.
I don't think there should be any weapon that is plain out ineffective against a class. Its the equivalent of having Hydras that can only shoot at marines with flamethrowers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mines are fire and forget. That's like asking why sentries are useless against bilebomb. Or why whips are useless against all marine weapons. Mines still hit fades if they blink into them. They have to time their blinks to blow them up and be aware that the mines are there. Mines shouldn't be very strong weapons. They're already very good against skulks. That's their job. Early game area denial (pre turrets) and late game resource dump.
<!--quoteo(post=1911763:date=Mar 9 2012, 11:38 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 9 2012, 11:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades will still be useful against those not wearing jetpacks and the intent is to give a marine a viable tech to put them on an equal footing with a fade, not make them more powerful than the fade. Also, normal res restrictions apply such that marines will not be able to buy jetpacks all the time. Its sufficient just to make it where marines can realistically have enough jetpackers to counter the number of enemy fades and then let player skill, the amount of teamwork, and numbers (2v1, 3v4, etc) determine the outcome of any individual battle.
There is also a practical problem with your 'deny the 3rd hive' strategy in that it generally doesn't work. Because of the aforementioned problems with the fade, once the 2nd hive goes up, marines are largely unable to mount an effective offensive without leaving a major outpost (or even their main base) severely underdefended. In fact, as alien comm I regularly try to get my team to rush marine start whenever they try to attack a 3rd/4th/5th hive because its absolutely worth sacrificing a marginal hive to win the game. The only times I've ever seen a marine team win a game where the alien's built and hold their 2nd hive have been when a skill stacked marine team relocates to crushing room on mineshaft to deny the aliens their natural 3rd hive location by literally building their main base there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you talking about mineshaft with all these theoretical discussions? Mineshaft is a severely imbalanced map that aliens should win every game on.
Yes I have read this board if that answers ur question. U are complaining about fades like a lot of ppl how they say they should get some nerfs and this topic about nerfing fade has been going on for awhile. Why nerf them if you know how to kill them and complain about it? For Marines the most crucial thing IMO is from preventing aliens from getting the second hive so they can get fades out. It's the marines fault for letting the aliens get more hives for higher life forms. So nerf fade ok all good and all but Marines have atleast lvl 1 weapons and/or armor at this time with shot guns, what would you want skulks to do? One shot a skulk is really easy even for noobies, aim and pray u hit them up close and their dead if they do land a shot. Even high leveled players at the begining could easily get killed by a marine with a shot gun. How would u counter act this? With a fade, but even so shot guns can counter act and kill fades as well. Why not think what buffs they should do for marines then nerf a lifeform thats already been tweaked with.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1911767:date=Mar 9 2012, 09:11 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 9 2012, 09:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you talking about mineshaft with all these theoretical discussions? Mineshaft is a severely imbalanced map that aliens should win every game on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Na, same issue happens on summit and tram. Mineshaft is a good example since it very clearly amplifies the underlying problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1911772:date=Mar 10 2012, 12:48 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 10 2012, 12:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Na, same issue happens on summit and tram. Mineshaft is a good example since it very clearly amplifies the underlying problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen plenty of games where the marines aren't strong enough to deny 2nd hive, but are able to get phase gate + armory + obs up in 3 tech areas and deny third hive. On tram and summit, that is. Mineshaft balance is way off.
Comments
I like what ScardyBob said, because it is usually what happens. Fades can be killed, it is just that early in the game, I would say that they take too much "human resources" to counter them. You're still trying to expand, and you need marines to build, you lack defensives options (turrets, phase gates, armory) in strategic places, but you need to focus everything on fades, because you lack tools to counter them. All the time you take to fight fades, marines get late in their development, while aliens can continue their expansion with a lot less of problems.
Marines needs a tool to limit fades early, because at that time, they don't have flame/phase gate/jetpack that counter fades. A simple solution would be to make fades vulnerable to mines. I see too often a doorway protected by mines, only to see a fade come through, exploding all the mines without getting any damage and opening the way for the rest of the aliens. What's the point of putting mines if you can remove all of them without any consequences? Make them explode in their time-teleporting ######, and I think it would solve a big part of the problem. Fades stay the same, Marines also, and mines does the job they are really supposed to do.
Gorge used to remove mines at a distance is a great option that enhance that class. Fades used to remove mines instantly seem like a cheap trick that remove values for Gorge, and annihilate completely an honorable defense option for marines.
I like what ScardyBob said, because it is usually what happens. Fades can be killed, it is just that early in the game, I would say that they take too much "human resources" to counter them. You're still trying to expand, and you need marines to build, you lack defensives options (turrets, phase gates, armory) in strategic places, but you need to focus everything on fades, because you lack tools to counter them. All the time you take to fight fades, marines get late in their development, while aliens can continue their expansion with a lot less of problems.
Marines needs a tool to limit fades early, because at that time, they don't have flame/phase gate/jetpack that counter fades. A simple solution would be to make fades vulnerable to mines. I see too often a doorway protected by mines, only to see a fade come through, exploding all the mines without getting any damage and opening the way for the rest of the aliens. What's the point of putting mines if you can remove all of them without any consequences? Make them explode in their time-teleporting ######, and I think it would solve a big part of the problem. Fades stay the same, Marines also, and mines does the job they are really supposed to do.
Gorge used to remove mines at a distance is a great option that enhance that class. Fades used to remove mines instantly seem like a cheap trick that remove values for Gorge, and annihilate completely an honorable defense option for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If marines have a tool to limit fades early and limit fades late, then when are fades useful?
Right now, if fades come out, marines have to turtle on 2-3 RTs and deny 3rd hive. They don't have to beat fades, they just have to not be beaten by fades.
Marines needs a tool to limit fades early, because at that time, they don't have flame/phase gate/jetpack that counter fades. A simple solution would be to make fades vulnerable to mines. I see too often a doorway protected by mines, only to see a fade come through, exploding all the mines without getting any damage and opening the way for the rest of the aliens. What's the point of putting mines if you can remove all of them without any consequences? Make them explode in their time-teleporting ######, and I think it would solve a big part of the problem. Fades stay the same, Marines also, and mines does the job they are really supposed to do.
Gorge used to remove mines at a distance is a great option that enhance that class. Fades used to remove mines instantly seem like a cheap trick that remove values for Gorge, and annihilate completely an honorable defense option for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seen this happen way too often. Fades are so fast in stealth that the mines trigger after they've passed over them, rendering them useless.
valid strat or exploiting?
I don't think there should be any weapon that is plain out ineffective against a class. Its the equivalent of having Hydras that can only shoot at marines with flamethrowers.
If you read my earlier post i talked about how much energy fades have to play with. Because they have near unlimited blink energy they can easily go all in every time with little risk of dieing. They only effective way to kill a fade right now is burst damage with shotguns. If they do notice their hp is getting low they simply start blinking and marines have no way to block that. Even though the fade can't kill anyone he will still be able to survive, this is one factor that allows aliens to mass up fades.
The other issue is that marines are forced to get armor 2 to take that extra fades from fades which is HUGE. A marine with a shotgun has a chance to get 2 full hits on the fade before going down alone. That means if the fade misses 1 hit there is a high risk of him dieing.
--
Fades will still be a powerhouse with these 2 issues fixed. Also when they get their 3rd ability back they can have their energy recharged very fast to keep the pressure on the marines, it will just be harder to manage your energy while fighting.
--
Lastly I see allot of chat about marines losing when the 2nd hive goes up. Its true this happens but most of the time its because the marines were already losing or didn't prepare enough. If you see that you are unable to take down the 2nd hive then you should get ready for fades.
Huh? Mines doesn't make skulks irrelevant, I don't see why it should make fades useless.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i, personally, will often run through a base setting all of them off with that being my only intention/goal... just to pave the way for skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, and that's really a big problem. You pay 15 Res to install 3 mines, and they all got blown up for nothing. Without fades blowing everything up, gorge could be a lot more useful in removing mines, or you could always have kamikaze skulks blowing themselves up to open the way for the others aliens. It would make the strategy a lot more interesting.
Anyway, I'm not there to fight, just wanted to share my solution. Instead of nerfing fades or laughing at noob who can't aim, just makes the mines serve their real purpose (blowing up the alien who step on it). Everything stay the same, except that fades need to watch where they go, and marines can pay to have their back covered.
Right now, if fades come out, marines have to turtle on 2-3 RTs and deny 3rd hive. They don't have to beat fades, they just have to not be beaten by fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades will still be useful against those not wearing jetpacks and the intent is to give a marine a viable tech to put them on an equal footing with a fade, not make them more powerful than the fade. Also, normal res restrictions apply such that marines will not be able to buy jetpacks all the time. Its sufficient just to make it where marines can realistically have enough jetpackers to counter the number of enemy fades and then let player skill, the amount of teamwork, and numbers (2v1, 3v4, etc) determine the outcome of any individual battle.
There is also a practical problem with your 'deny the 3rd hive' strategy in that it generally doesn't work. Because of the aforementioned problems with the fade, once the 2nd hive goes up, marines are largely unable to mount an effective offensive without leaving a major outpost (or even their main base) severely underdefended. In fact, as alien comm I regularly try to get my team to rush marine start whenever they try to attack a 3rd/4th/5th hive because its absolutely worth sacrificing a marginal hive to win the game. The only times I've ever seen a marine team win a game where the alien's built and hold their 2nd hive have been when a skill stacked marine team relocates to crushing room on mineshaft to deny the aliens their natural 3rd hive location by literally building their main base there.
valid strat or exploiting?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely valid strats. Mines are counters to skulks, not higher life forms.
<!--quoteo(post=1911762:date=Mar 9 2012, 11:29 PM:name=bobrun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bobrun @ Mar 9 2012, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Huh? Mines doesn't make skulks irrelevant, I don't see why it should make fades useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said this.
<!--quoteo(post=1911755:date=Mar 9 2012, 11:09 PM:name=Awesomerobo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Awesomerobo @ Mar 9 2012, 11:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just played a game where a fade entered before the skulks into our main base and set off about 7 mines in stealth mode. Skulks entered and finished off the base.
I don't think there should be any weapon that is plain out ineffective against a class. Its the equivalent of having Hydras that can only shoot at marines with flamethrowers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mines are fire and forget. That's like asking why sentries are useless against bilebomb. Or why whips are useless against all marine weapons. Mines still hit fades if they blink into them. They have to time their blinks to blow them up and be aware that the mines are there. Mines shouldn't be very strong weapons. They're already very good against skulks. That's their job. Early game area denial (pre turrets) and late game resource dump.
There is also a practical problem with your 'deny the 3rd hive' strategy in that it generally doesn't work. Because of the aforementioned problems with the fade, once the 2nd hive goes up, marines are largely unable to mount an effective offensive without leaving a major outpost (or even their main base) severely underdefended. In fact, as alien comm I regularly try to get my team to rush marine start whenever they try to attack a 3rd/4th/5th hive because its absolutely worth sacrificing a marginal hive to win the game. The only times I've ever seen a marine team win a game where the alien's built and hold their 2nd hive have been when a skill stacked marine team relocates to crushing room on mineshaft to deny the aliens their natural 3rd hive location by literally building their main base there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you talking about mineshaft with all these theoretical discussions? Mineshaft is a severely imbalanced map that aliens should win every game on.
Na, same issue happens on summit and tram. Mineshaft is a good example since it very clearly amplifies the underlying problem.
I've seen plenty of games where the marines aren't strong enough to deny 2nd hive, but are able to get phase gate + armory + obs up in 3 tech areas and deny third hive. On tram and summit, that is. Mineshaft balance is way off.