I dont think there's anything wrong with fades. When I'm a fade, I usually run into marines with 2-3, and for some reason they can't aim at me, maybe I do so much of shadow-step and blinking lol. Take 1 marine at a time, then regenerate, and attack again.
If marines can actually aim, 2 pump shotties, fades die very quickly. Flamethrowers are also a nice counter attack to fades with a teamwork. I killed a lot of fades with just a rifle with some 2-3 marines shooting at the fade too.
I don't see any problems with fades, except for the momentum which I hate. And I can't blink to left or right or backwards. Overall, fades are fine.
Shotguns are more than enough to take care of fades. The problem lies with frenzy and marines needing armor 2 to able to take 2 hits from fades.
There are other issue, fades has to much energy to play with(considering they are near invulnerable while blinking). I think energy cost for blink should be increased to force fades to use their momentum from blink (like ns1) to close the distance. Sure they can still use blink all the way but it would have risk involved. I also think blink should have minimum blink requirement(again, similar to ns1) So if you are to low on energy you are unable to blink. I think this is in the game right now but you hardly notice it, maybe because there is to much energy to play with.
Lastly does shadow step add anything of value to the gameplay? I'm still puzzled why it was added. If they wanted limited blink time it could simply be implemented to the main blink.
Bad OP is bad and doesn't understand how the game works, yet thinks he's qualified to comment on the state of balance because of the Kruger-Dunning Effect. Nothing new to see here.
I'm very much of the same mind as Grissi on this. 1. Increase minimum blink energy requirement. 2. Require a1, not a2, in order to survive. 3. What's the deal with shadowstep?
I think what most people who complain about OP fades are really complaining about how annoying it is to fight them. Balance is one thing, but gameplay is another. In many ways, it isn't a challenge to fight a fade, it's just an annoyance. And killing a fade (and dying as a fade) is rarely a consequence of skill, but of luck.
<!--quoteo(post=1911557:date=Mar 9 2012, 10:05 AM:name=Flounder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flounder @ Mar 9 2012, 10:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In many ways, it isn't a challenge to fight a fade, it's just an annoyance. And killing a fade (and dying as a fade) is rarely a consequence of skill, but of luck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've only had NS2 about 4 days now but I don't think we should be nerfing them until we see what happens when the Exosuit gets added, they may even need a buff then?
I think what it comes down to quite a lot of time is scenarios where we see people saying 'x' is overpowerd is that they have been playing one, maybe more games where either their team is very weak or the other team very strong in terms of teamplay/commanding.
Said scenario usually results in one side gaining an ever increasing advantage on the other until the point where people believe the cause to be something overpowered (typically x = fades).
This is not the case. It is in imbalance in team work/skill/commanding that emphasises losses.
My assertion above is based upon public games. I imagine in clan matches (which i have not played) imbalances in kit/classes will be more apparent.
<!--quoteo(post=1911557:date=Mar 9 2012, 04:05 PM:name=Flounder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flounder @ Mar 9 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And killing a fade (and dying as a fade) is rarely a consequence of skill, but of luck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can agree with this only when on servers that the tick, lag, server performance cause havoc with hit registration. I usually try to find a better server.
I'd like to see the flamers get into play quicker, it was nerf'd to make it more effective against alien energy than health (a good thing).
There should be a bit of a rebalance between lvl1/2 weapon upgrades and cost of getting shotguns and flamers.
Shotguns are worth the cost due to the damage they do right now. LMG and flamers should be tweaked to make them a more viable option early on and they require teamwork to get the most benefit, a Marine essential.
Shotguns make Marines feel a bit too Rambo, but are thankfully not quite as powerful as people might wish.
I'd like to add that I'm not a 'crying noob,' as most people are implying, being a veteran since NS1.
I decided to post this observation after 18 hours of testing NS2 as marines and noticing trends, with clan play with the 420 guys. I'm presenting facts here not flames, further confirmed by the fact that at least 80% of games end when marines fail to deny Hive 2 and can't counter multiple fades attacking at the same time, even with shotgun tech, l2 armor and a skilled comm.
Also, thanks to Deity for his excellent psychological profiling. I sometimes forget that I'm playing a beta and that feedback is encouraged during development. Guess its all part of my superiority complex!
Wasn't so much psychological profiling (that's what they do to serial killers...) as much as pointing out a chronic problem with all video game forums. People who are bad at things think they are much better than they actually are and thus vastly overrate their ability. Meanwhile the people who are actually skilled underrate their abilities. It's a very useful thing to know.
It's a huge problem on forums because often the most vocal people don't have a clue what they are talking about and give knee-jerk responses, which unfortunately get listened to by game developers.
<!--quoteo(post=1911456:date=Mar 9 2012, 01:14 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 9 2012, 01:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you think fades are imbalanced, you probably need to figure out the strategy called "aiming."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1911640:date=Mar 9 2012, 12:40 PM:name=Deity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deity @ Mar 9 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wasn't so much psychological profiling (that's what they do to serial killers...) as much as pointing out a chronic problem with all video game forums. People who are bad at things think they are much better than they actually are and thus vastly overrate their ability. Meanwhile the people who are actually skilled underrate their abilities. It's a very useful thing to know.
It's a huge problem on forums because often the most vocal people don't have a clue what they are talking about and give knee-jerk responses, which unfortunately get listened to by game developers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well here's the thing, you're contributing zero to the discussion and derailing the thread. Try posting some points to get into a discussion rather than relying on wikipedia links to psychological profiles.
You didn't even read my post claiming how much gametime I'm basing this observation off of before responding with more of your views on videogame forums and how everyone is an idiot except for you. Take this discussion elsewhere, or present some actual counter points.
<!--quoteo(post=1911646:date=Mar 9 2012, 01:23 PM:name=AegisXI)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AegisXI @ Mar 9 2012, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's funny how ppl complains about fades... their good but not OP. 3 shot gun shells to the face ur dead jump and evade that simple<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? Fascinating. Did you read any of the discussion before posting your enlightening opinion?
<!--quoteo(post=1911658:date=Mar 9 2012, 01:54 PM:name=MiniH0wie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Mar 9 2012, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wait till Marines have EXO and Miniguns, then you'll be complaining that Marines are too hard to kill....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, except for the whole part where EXO and Miniguns don't come till much later in the game. If we're lucky Miniguns will come after shotguns on the tech tree like the HMG in Natural Selection.
<!--quoteo(post=1911686:date=Mar 9 2012, 03:20 PM:name=Deity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deity @ Mar 9 2012, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Time played does not equate to skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just another example of superiority complex in effect on a forum. Ignore this troll. Hey Deity, read this analysis of yourself seeing that you like psychology so much.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited March 2012
I thought some data would be helpful (win stats are from <a href="http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/displayendgamestats?version=199&output=chart" target="_blank">here</a>) Alien Wins - All maps = 67.16% Alien Wins - Tram = 64.92% Alien Wins - Summit = 66.40% Alien Wins - Mineshaft = 70.13%
So there is a (slight) trend of alien wins with respect to map size, which I suspect is due to the larger distances making it harder for marines to prevent/kill the aliens 2nd hive. I view a lot of this is due to fades.
Now, counter to much of the 'shoot better, noob' commentary in this thread, fades are definitely op and I can demonstrate why. While its true that roughly 2-3 shotgun shots can kill a fade (depending on cara/marine weapon level), its rare that one can do so by themselves. In practice, it usually requires multiple marines to fight a fade (for the sake of argument, lets say you need 2 marines to fight and possibly kill 1 fade). This can quickly to a serious imbalance between marines and aliens. For example, lets look at a simple matchup (only marines, skulks, and fades) of 6v6 (ignoring comms), where 1v1 encounters are evenly matched. In the case of no fades, players generally match up like so Marine 1 = Skulk 1 Marine 2 = Skulk 2 Marine 3 = Skulk 3 Marine 4 = Skulk 4 Marine 5 = Skulk 5 Marine 6 = Skulk 6
There's no mismatch between the teams because all of the marines can take on all of the skulks in 1v1 with no problem. Now lets add one fade to the mix, with the caveat that it takes two marines to fight one fade. Marine 1 = Fade 1 Marine 2 = Fade 1 Marine 3 = Skulk 2 Marine 4 = Skulk 3 Marine 5 = Skulk 4 Marine 6 = Skulk 5 ------------ Skulk 6 As you can see, the fade essentially allows a skulk to attack marine bases/outposts/res nodes more or less uncontested. In this simple example, you can quickly see how once aliens reach 3 fades, marines will spend the majority of their time fighting fades (or, more realistically, fade + skulk/gorge/lerk combos), such that they likely won't be able to leave their base, let alone push into alien territory.
In this context, the solution to the problem is clear; make it so one marine can fight and realistically be able to kill a fade solo. Thankfully, we have one such tech that allows that and its name is the jetpack. I find it much easier to either kill or drive away (while still living) a fade with a jetpack than I do with any other tech. As such, I think making it possible to get jetpacks before aliens get the 2nd hive would be a good solution (fastest 2nd hive completion time is 5:45 so I think somewhere in the 5-7 min for fastest time to get jetpack would be necessary). In practice, that would probably mean reducing the protolab prereq requirements to having an armory vs an advanced armory and reducing the protolab and jp research costs.
<!--quoteo(post=1911692:date=Mar 9 2012, 02:43 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 9 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, counter to much of the 'shoot better, noob' commentary in this thread, fades are definitely op and I can demonstrate why. While its true that roughly 2-3 shotgun shots can kill a fade (depending on cara/marine weapon level), its rare that one can do so by themselves. In practice, it usually requires multiple marines to fight a fade (for the sake of argument, lets say you need 2 marines to fight and possibly kill 1 fade). This can quickly to a serious imbalance between marines and aliens. For example, lets look at a simple matchup (only marines, skulks, and fades) of 6v6 (ignoring comms), where 1v1 encounters are evenly matched. In the case of no fades, players generally match up like so Marine 1 = Skulk 1 Marine 2 = Skulk 2 Marine 3 = Skulk 3 Marine 4 = Skulk 4 Marine 5 = Skulk 5 Marine 6 = Skulk 6
There's no mismatch between the teams because all of the marines can take on all of the skulks in 1v1 with no problem. Now lets add one fade to the mix, with the caveat that it takes two marines to fight one fade. Marine 1 = Fade 1 Marine 2 = Fade 1 Marine 3 = Skulk 2 Marine 4 = Skulk 3 Marine 5 = Skulk 4 Marine 6 = Skulk 5 ------------ Skulk 6 As you can see, the fade essentially allows a skulk to attack marine bases/outposts/res nodes more or less uncontested. In this simple example, you can quickly see how once aliens reach 3 fades, marines will spend the majority of their time fighting fades (or, more realistically, fade + skulk/gorge/lerk combos), such that they likely won't be able to leave their base, let alone push into alien territory.
In this context, the solution to the problem is clear; make it so one marine can fight and realistically be able to kill a fade solo. Thankfully, we have one such tech that allows that and its name is the jetpack. I find it much easier to either kill or drive away (while still living) a fade with a jetpack than I do with any other tech. As such, I think making it possible to get jetpacks before aliens get the 2nd hive would be a good solution (fastest 2nd hive completion time is 5:45 so I think somewhere in the 5-7 min for fastest time to get jetpack would be necessary). In practice, that would probably mean reducing the protolab prereq requirements to having an armory vs an advanced armory and reducing the protolab and jp research costs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should 1 marine be able to kill a fade? I'm assuming you mean the "average" marine with mediocre aim. That would nerf the fade into oblivion if bad players have the expectations that they should be able to solo a fade. And your numbers make no sense.... those are merely made up numbers with many, many assumptions taken into them. Teams are realistically going to be pushing or defending areas of interest together, it's not a simple game of 1+1 = 2.
20 rez shotty with no tech reqs =/= 50 rez lifeform with a 2 hive requirement
Except that 1 marine with a SG > 1 skulk. You are oversimplifying things ScardyBob.
Also, marines spawn insanely faster than skulks with 2 or more IPs.
Edit: Comm support also plays a HUGE role in taking out fades. Fades run out of energy and die if they try to keep swiping marines that are getting medpack spam and who are nano-shielded (which most alien players can't see because they admit to leaving alien vision turned on 100% of the time).
Fade need to be unlinked from second hive, because make it make the whole strategy focused on taking down / getting up the second hive. It was already a problem in ns1 without fade being linked to second hive, so it's much worse now in ns2.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1911698:date=Mar 9 2012, 02:55 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Mar 9 2012, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why should 1 marine be able to kill a fade? I'm assuming you mean the "average" marine with mediocre aim. That would nerf the fade into oblivion if bad players have the expectations that they should be able to solo a fade. And your numbers make no sense.... those are merely made up numbers with many, many assumptions taken into them. Teams are realistically going to be pushing or defending areas of interest together, it's not a simple game of 1+1 = 2.
20 rez shotty with no tech reqs =/= 50 rez lifeform with a 2 hive requirement<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm saying that, for example, a single shotgun+jetpack marine (40 PRes) should have a close to even chance to solo kill a fade (50 PRes) when his skill level is equal to the fades. The key insight is that for marines to be balanced against a fade, there needs to be a path of tech/upgrades in which a marine can realistically fight a fade by themselves and that it has to be possible to get as soon as the 2nd hive can complete.
<!--quoteo(post=1911699:date=Mar 9 2012, 02:56 PM:name=Deity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deity @ Mar 9 2012, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except that 1 marine with a SG > 1 skulk. You are oversimplifying things ScardyBob.
Also, marines spawn insanely faster than skulks with 2 or more IPs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> True, a real game is much more complex, involving varied spawn times, differing skill balance, 2v2/3v3 matchups, etc, but the simplification is designed to illustrate the point that this is possible, why it occurs, and a potential fix. Unfourtunately, I don't have a sufficiently detailed set of win stats data in which I could prove that this is actually occurring or is a significant contributor to the actual imbalance shown in the overall win stats, but based on my own experience (playing as both marine and alien) and the frequency at which I see other players bring this topic up, I strongly believe this is what's causing the issue.
Also, imo the proper way to balance SG v skulk is to fix SG v skulk balance, not to compensate by making the fades op.
<!--quoteo(post=1911703:date=Mar 10 2012, 01:15 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 10 2012, 01:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm saying that, for example, a single shotgun+jetpack marine (40 PRes) should have a close to even chance to solo kill a fade (50 PRes) when his skill level is equal to the fades. The key insight is that for marines to be balanced against a fade, there needs to be a path of tech/upgrades in which a marine can realistically fight a fade by themselves and that it has to be possible to get as soon as the 2nd hive can complete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're not taking any other lifeforms into consideration. Getting jetpack earlier would make it easier to defend against fades yes, but it would also make it easier to kill any other lifeforms and attacking hives. This would completely break the your earlier analogy of 1 skulks = 1 marine (although I don't believe that's really the case in the first place due to how many shotguns are on the field all the time).
<!--quoteo(post=1911703:date=Mar 10 2012, 01:15 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 10 2012, 01:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, imo the proper way to balance SG v skulk is to fix SG v skulk balance, not to compensate by making the fades op.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's wrong with the shotgun vs skulk match up anyway? If you think a marine with 40 PRes of equipment should be able to kill a 50 PRes lifeform, why do you think Skulks should have any easier time with a 20PRes shotgun?
<!--quoteo(post=1911692:date=Mar 9 2012, 05:43 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 9 2012, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought some data would be helpful (win stats are from <a href="http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/displayendgamestats?version=199&output=chart" target="_blank">here</a>) Alien Wins - All maps = 67.16% Alien Wins - Tram = 64.92% Alien Wins - Summit = 66.40% Alien Wins - Mineshaft = 70.13%
So there is a (slight) trend of alien wins with respect to map size, which I suspect is due to the larger distances making it harder for marines to prevent/kill the aliens 2nd hive. I view a lot of this is due to fades.
Now, counter to much of the 'shoot better, noob' commentary in this thread, fades are definitely op and I can demonstrate why. While its true that roughly 2-3 shotgun shots can kill a fade (depending on cara/marine weapon level), its rare that one can do so by themselves. In practice, it usually requires multiple marines to fight a fade (for the sake of argument, lets say you need 2 marines to fight and possibly kill 1 fade). This can quickly to a serious imbalance between marines and aliens. For example, lets look at a simple matchup (only marines, skulks, and fades) of 6v6 (ignoring comms), where 1v1 encounters are evenly matched. In the case of no fades, players generally match up like so Marine 1 = Skulk 1 Marine 2 = Skulk 2 Marine 3 = Skulk 3 Marine 4 = Skulk 4 Marine 5 = Skulk 5 Marine 6 = Skulk 6
There's no mismatch between the teams because all of the marines can take on all of the skulks in 1v1 with no problem. Now lets add one fade to the mix, with the caveat that it takes two marines to fight one fade. Marine 1 = Fade 1 Marine 2 = Fade 1 Marine 3 = Skulk 2 Marine 4 = Skulk 3 Marine 5 = Skulk 4 Marine 6 = Skulk 5 ------------ Skulk 6 As you can see, the fade essentially allows a skulk to attack marine bases/outposts/res nodes more or less uncontested. In this simple example, you can quickly see how once aliens reach 3 fades, marines will spend the majority of their time fighting fades (or, more realistically, fade + skulk/gorge/lerk combos), such that they likely won't be able to leave their base, let alone push into alien territory.
In this context, the solution to the problem is clear; make it so one marine can fight and realistically be able to kill a fade solo. Thankfully, we have one such tech that allows that and its name is the jetpack. I find it much easier to either kill or drive away (while still living) a fade with a jetpack than I do with any other tech. As such, I think making it possible to get jetpacks before aliens get the 2nd hive would be a good solution (fastest 2nd hive completion time is 5:45 so I think somewhere in the 5-7 min for fastest time to get jetpack would be necessary). In practice, that would probably mean reducing the protolab prereq requirements to having an armory vs an advanced armory and reducing the protolab and jp research costs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just created a tautology and then applied it erroneously to real game situations. Plus, I'm pretty sure 1 marine with shotguns, upgrades, and comm support are worth much more than 1 skulk.
That said, I'm not opposed to making JPs easier to get. Though I do think their energy regen rate is too high.
<!--quoteo(post=1911715:date=Mar 9 2012, 07:08 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Mar 9 2012, 07:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->would be nice if umbra helped skulks out vs shotguns, but they still get one-shotted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umbra definitely stops the one shots in realistic game scenarios. Umbra is so huge for holding positions.
Comments
If marines can actually aim, 2 pump shotties, fades die very quickly. Flamethrowers are also a nice counter attack to fades with a teamwork. I killed a lot of fades with just a rifle with some 2-3 marines shooting at the fade too.
I don't see any problems with fades, except for the momentum which I hate. And I can't blink to left or right or backwards.
Overall, fades are fine.
There are other issue, fades has to much energy to play with(considering they are near invulnerable while blinking). I think energy cost for blink should be increased to force fades to use their momentum from blink (like ns1) to close the distance. Sure they can still use blink all the way but it would have risk involved.
I also think blink should have minimum blink requirement(again, similar to ns1) So if you are to low on energy you are unable to blink. I think this is in the game right now but you hardly notice it, maybe because there is to much energy to play with.
Lastly does shadow step add anything of value to the gameplay? I'm still puzzled why it was added. If they wanted limited blink time it could simply be implemented to the main blink.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect</a>
1. Increase minimum blink energy requirement.
2. Require a1, not a2, in order to survive.
3. What's the deal with shadowstep?
I think what most people who complain about OP fades are really complaining about how annoying it is to fight them. Balance is one thing, but gameplay is another. In many ways, it isn't a challenge to fight a fade, it's just an annoyance. And killing a fade (and dying as a fade) is rarely a consequence of skill, but of luck.
Pretty ridiculous claim right there.
Said scenario usually results in one side gaining an ever increasing advantage on the other until the point where people believe the cause to be something overpowered (typically x = fades).
This is not the case. It is in imbalance in team work/skill/commanding that emphasises losses.
My assertion above is based upon public games. I imagine in clan matches (which i have not played) imbalances in kit/classes will be more apparent.
EDIT: Really bad grammar at start.
I can agree with this only when on servers that the tick, lag, server performance cause havoc with hit registration.
I usually try to find a better server.
There should be a bit of a rebalance between lvl1/2 weapon upgrades and cost of getting shotguns and flamers.
Shotguns are worth the cost due to the damage they do right now. LMG and flamers should be tweaked to make them a more viable option early on and they require teamwork to get the most benefit, a Marine essential.
Shotguns make Marines feel a bit too Rambo, but are thankfully not quite as powerful as people might wish.
Mines > Phase Tech > Advanced Armory > Flamers > Armor 1 > Wep 1 > SG
I typically don't even bother to build a Robotics factory
I find that Flamers allow the marines to WTF PWN skulks and gorges and and keep Fades under control
That being said I have only won 2 games as marine comm :-P
I decided to post this observation after 18 hours of testing NS2 as marines and noticing trends, with clan play with the 420 guys. I'm presenting facts here not flames, further confirmed by the fact that at least 80% of games end when marines fail to deny Hive 2 and can't counter multiple fades attacking at the same time, even with shotgun tech, l2 armor and a skilled comm.
Also, thanks to Deity for his excellent psychological profiling. I sometimes forget that I'm playing a beta and that feedback is encouraged during development. Guess its all part of my superiority complex!
It's a huge problem on forums because often the most vocal people don't have a clue what they are talking about and give knee-jerk responses, which unfortunately get listened to by game developers.
Well said sir :)
It's a huge problem on forums because often the most vocal people don't have a clue what they are talking about and give knee-jerk responses, which unfortunately get listened to by game developers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well here's the thing, you're contributing zero to the discussion and derailing the thread. Try posting some points to get into a discussion rather than relying on wikipedia links to psychological profiles.
You didn't even read my post claiming how much gametime I'm basing this observation off of before responding with more of your views on videogame forums and how everyone is an idiot except for you. Take this discussion elsewhere, or present some actual counter points.
<!--quoteo(post=1911646:date=Mar 9 2012, 01:23 PM:name=AegisXI)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AegisXI @ Mar 9 2012, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's funny how ppl complains about fades... their good but not OP. 3 shot gun shells to the face ur dead jump and evade that simple<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? Fascinating. Did you read any of the discussion before posting your enlightening opinion?
<!--quoteo(post=1911658:date=Mar 9 2012, 01:54 PM:name=MiniH0wie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Mar 9 2012, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just wait till Marines have EXO and Miniguns, then you'll be complaining that Marines are too hard to kill....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, except for the whole part where EXO and Miniguns don't come till much later in the game. If we're lucky Miniguns will come after shotguns on the tech tree like the HMG in Natural Selection.
Just another example of superiority complex in effect on a forum. Ignore this troll. Hey Deity, read this analysis of yourself seeing that you like psychology so much.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_complex" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_complex</a>
Alien Wins - All maps = 67.16%
Alien Wins - Tram = 64.92%
Alien Wins - Summit = 66.40%
Alien Wins - Mineshaft = 70.13%
So there is a (slight) trend of alien wins with respect to map size, which I suspect is due to the larger distances making it harder for marines to prevent/kill the aliens 2nd hive. I view a lot of this is due to fades.
Now, counter to much of the 'shoot better, noob' commentary in this thread, fades are definitely op and I can demonstrate why. While its true that roughly 2-3 shotgun shots can kill a fade (depending on cara/marine weapon level), its rare that one can do so by themselves. In practice, it usually requires multiple marines to fight a fade (for the sake of argument, lets say you need 2 marines to fight and possibly kill 1 fade). This can quickly to a serious imbalance between marines and aliens. For example, lets look at a simple matchup (only marines, skulks, and fades) of 6v6 (ignoring comms), where 1v1 encounters are evenly matched. In the case of no fades, players generally match up like so
Marine 1 = Skulk 1
Marine 2 = Skulk 2
Marine 3 = Skulk 3
Marine 4 = Skulk 4
Marine 5 = Skulk 5
Marine 6 = Skulk 6
There's no mismatch between the teams because all of the marines can take on all of the skulks in 1v1 with no problem. Now lets add one fade to the mix, with the caveat that it takes two marines to fight one fade.
Marine 1 = Fade 1
Marine 2 = Fade 1
Marine 3 = Skulk 2
Marine 4 = Skulk 3
Marine 5 = Skulk 4
Marine 6 = Skulk 5
------------ Skulk 6
As you can see, the fade essentially allows a skulk to attack marine bases/outposts/res nodes more or less uncontested. In this simple example, you can quickly see how once aliens reach 3 fades, marines will spend the majority of their time fighting fades (or, more realistically, fade + skulk/gorge/lerk combos), such that they likely won't be able to leave their base, let alone push into alien territory.
In this context, the solution to the problem is clear; make it so one marine can fight and realistically be able to kill a fade solo. Thankfully, we have one such tech that allows that and its name is the jetpack. I find it much easier to either kill or drive away (while still living) a fade with a jetpack than I do with any other tech. As such, I think making it possible to get jetpacks before aliens get the 2nd hive would be a good solution (fastest 2nd hive completion time is 5:45 so I think somewhere in the 5-7 min for fastest time to get jetpack would be necessary). In practice, that would probably mean reducing the protolab prereq requirements to having an armory vs an advanced armory and reducing the protolab and jp research costs.
Marine 1 = Skulk 1
Marine 2 = Skulk 2
Marine 3 = Skulk 3
Marine 4 = Skulk 4
Marine 5 = Skulk 5
Marine 6 = Skulk 6
There's no mismatch between the teams because all of the marines can take on all of the skulks in 1v1 with no problem. Now lets add one fade to the mix, with the caveat that it takes two marines to fight one fade.
Marine 1 = Fade 1
Marine 2 = Fade 1
Marine 3 = Skulk 2
Marine 4 = Skulk 3
Marine 5 = Skulk 4
Marine 6 = Skulk 5
------------ Skulk 6
As you can see, the fade essentially allows a skulk to attack marine bases/outposts/res nodes more or less uncontested. In this simple example, you can quickly see how once aliens reach 3 fades, marines will spend the majority of their time fighting fades (or, more realistically, fade + skulk/gorge/lerk combos), such that they likely won't be able to leave their base, let alone push into alien territory.
In this context, the solution to the problem is clear; make it so one marine can fight and realistically be able to kill a fade solo. Thankfully, we have one such tech that allows that and its name is the jetpack. I find it much easier to either kill or drive away (while still living) a fade with a jetpack than I do with any other tech. As such, I think making it possible to get jetpacks before aliens get the 2nd hive would be a good solution (fastest 2nd hive completion time is 5:45 so I think somewhere in the 5-7 min for fastest time to get jetpack would be necessary). In practice, that would probably mean reducing the protolab prereq requirements to having an armory vs an advanced armory and reducing the protolab and jp research costs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% agree.
20 rez shotty with no tech reqs =/= 50 rez lifeform with a 2 hive requirement
Also, marines spawn insanely faster than skulks with 2 or more IPs.
Edit: Comm support also plays a HUGE role in taking out fades. Fades run out of energy and die if they try to keep swiping marines that are getting medpack spam and who are nano-shielded (which most alien players can't see because they admit to leaving alien vision turned on 100% of the time).
Then you can fix the fade.
20 rez shotty with no tech reqs =/= 50 rez lifeform with a 2 hive requirement<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm saying that, for example, a single shotgun+jetpack marine (40 PRes) should have a close to even chance to solo kill a fade (50 PRes) when his skill level is equal to the fades. The key insight is that for marines to be balanced against a fade, there needs to be a path of tech/upgrades in which a marine can realistically fight a fade by themselves and that it has to be possible to get as soon as the 2nd hive can complete.
<!--quoteo(post=1911699:date=Mar 9 2012, 02:56 PM:name=Deity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deity @ Mar 9 2012, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except that 1 marine with a SG > 1 skulk. You are oversimplifying things ScardyBob.
Also, marines spawn insanely faster than skulks with 2 or more IPs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, a real game is much more complex, involving varied spawn times, differing skill balance, 2v2/3v3 matchups, etc, but the simplification is designed to illustrate the point that this is possible, why it occurs, and a potential fix. Unfourtunately, I don't have a sufficiently detailed set of win stats data in which I could prove that this is actually occurring or is a significant contributor to the actual imbalance shown in the overall win stats, but based on my own experience (playing as both marine and alien) and the frequency at which I see other players bring this topic up, I strongly believe this is what's causing the issue.
Also, imo the proper way to balance SG v skulk is to fix SG v skulk balance, not to compensate by making the fades op.
You're not taking any other lifeforms into consideration. Getting jetpack earlier would make it easier to defend against fades yes, but it would also make it easier to kill any other lifeforms and attacking hives. This would completely break the your earlier analogy of 1 skulks = 1 marine (although I don't believe that's really the case in the first place due to how many shotguns are on the field all the time).
<!--quoteo(post=1911703:date=Mar 10 2012, 01:15 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 10 2012, 01:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, imo the proper way to balance SG v skulk is to fix SG v skulk balance, not to compensate by making the fades op.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's wrong with the shotgun vs skulk match up anyway? If you think a marine with 40 PRes of equipment should be able to kill a 50 PRes lifeform, why do you think Skulks should have any easier time with a 20PRes shotgun?
Alien Wins - All maps = 67.16%
Alien Wins - Tram = 64.92%
Alien Wins - Summit = 66.40%
Alien Wins - Mineshaft = 70.13%
So there is a (slight) trend of alien wins with respect to map size, which I suspect is due to the larger distances making it harder for marines to prevent/kill the aliens 2nd hive. I view a lot of this is due to fades.
Now, counter to much of the 'shoot better, noob' commentary in this thread, fades are definitely op and I can demonstrate why. While its true that roughly 2-3 shotgun shots can kill a fade (depending on cara/marine weapon level), its rare that one can do so by themselves. In practice, it usually requires multiple marines to fight a fade (for the sake of argument, lets say you need 2 marines to fight and possibly kill 1 fade). This can quickly to a serious imbalance between marines and aliens. For example, lets look at a simple matchup (only marines, skulks, and fades) of 6v6 (ignoring comms), where 1v1 encounters are evenly matched. In the case of no fades, players generally match up like so
Marine 1 = Skulk 1
Marine 2 = Skulk 2
Marine 3 = Skulk 3
Marine 4 = Skulk 4
Marine 5 = Skulk 5
Marine 6 = Skulk 6
There's no mismatch between the teams because all of the marines can take on all of the skulks in 1v1 with no problem. Now lets add one fade to the mix, with the caveat that it takes two marines to fight one fade.
Marine 1 = Fade 1
Marine 2 = Fade 1
Marine 3 = Skulk 2
Marine 4 = Skulk 3
Marine 5 = Skulk 4
Marine 6 = Skulk 5
------------ Skulk 6
As you can see, the fade essentially allows a skulk to attack marine bases/outposts/res nodes more or less uncontested. In this simple example, you can quickly see how once aliens reach 3 fades, marines will spend the majority of their time fighting fades (or, more realistically, fade + skulk/gorge/lerk combos), such that they likely won't be able to leave their base, let alone push into alien territory.
In this context, the solution to the problem is clear; make it so one marine can fight and realistically be able to kill a fade solo. Thankfully, we have one such tech that allows that and its name is the jetpack. I find it much easier to either kill or drive away (while still living) a fade with a jetpack than I do with any other tech. As such, I think making it possible to get jetpacks before aliens get the 2nd hive would be a good solution (fastest 2nd hive completion time is 5:45 so I think somewhere in the 5-7 min for fastest time to get jetpack would be necessary). In practice, that would probably mean reducing the protolab prereq requirements to having an armory vs an advanced armory and reducing the protolab and jp research costs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just created a tautology and then applied it erroneously to real game situations. Plus, I'm pretty sure 1 marine with shotguns, upgrades, and comm support are worth much more than 1 skulk.
That said, I'm not opposed to making JPs easier to get. Though I do think their energy regen rate is too high.
Umbra definitely stops the one shots in realistic game scenarios. Umbra is so huge for holding positions.