Marines early game boost
Ice30
Join Date: 2011-11-26 Member: 135365Members
Join Date: 2011-11-26 Member: 135365Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Trying to fix early game for rines</div>Marines suck early game, because they have practically no map control. Aliens can easily zip around the map taking out RTs and even if a marine can defend or build the RT back up again it doesnt take long for a lone skulk to come along while your guys are pushing a different area and take out the RT again. Marines spend too much time trying to defend map control and RTs in early game that it becomes too hard to concentrate on an early game issues such as second hive and enemy res (unless the other team is ###### and doesnt take out the rines RTs). Marines do have good defensive abilities, but generally they are only available when its too late or if your team has already won the game by taking out the second hive and retaining map control.
These defensive abilities such as turrets and shield need a bit of a boost i think. At the moment I think turrets should become available for a much cheaper price (perhaps 15 for robo and 5 for turret) but then it costs say 15 res to upgrade for teir 2 turets which are the strength they currently are now and those ones cost 10 res each. That way turrets in early game can serve as a cheap detterence to lone skulks but then still come into their own as a reckonable base defence later on. Shield needs to regain or cost less enery aswell i think, i've seen many games lost by good use of shield which is then punished by 2 skulks camping and killing ips while the rines are trying their hardest to rush back to base while the rest of their team is being spawn killed because their com cant beacon.
Another issue is phase gates, which instantly turn into death traps when 1-2 skulks camp it, especially in early game, which is when map control is so important. Im not sure what needs doing here, perhaps the marines come out of the phase gate with a 1 second shield on them or something? Not sure.
These defensive abilities such as turrets and shield need a bit of a boost i think. At the moment I think turrets should become available for a much cheaper price (perhaps 15 for robo and 5 for turret) but then it costs say 15 res to upgrade for teir 2 turets which are the strength they currently are now and those ones cost 10 res each. That way turrets in early game can serve as a cheap detterence to lone skulks but then still come into their own as a reckonable base defence later on. Shield needs to regain or cost less enery aswell i think, i've seen many games lost by good use of shield which is then punished by 2 skulks camping and killing ips while the rines are trying their hardest to rush back to base while the rest of their team is being spawn killed because their com cant beacon.
Another issue is phase gates, which instantly turn into death traps when 1-2 skulks camp it, especially in early game, which is when map control is so important. Im not sure what needs doing here, perhaps the marines come out of the phase gate with a 1 second shield on them or something? Not sure.
Comments
This happens nearly every game for me. This is the issue. If one or two aliens arnt harrasing expansions like they rightfully should as aliens to fulfill their role, then they deserve to lose early game advantage. Aliens should do this in NS and i like it, only its far too effective as it is now.
Stopped reading right there. You don't know what you're talking about.
LOL when the developers increased the sprint time on marines because they cant defend res nodes very well did you think they didnt know what they were talking about either?
That would be an even bigger waste of my time than these posts, because the faulty premise of your argument shows you don't have a solid understanding of the game.
And again completley ignoring the recent ineffective buff the devs gave to address the issue im discussing. How about you construct an argument rather than posting troll posts?
It is very obvious that the marines are not weak in the early game, which is why I don't feel the need to spell out all the reasons why. Just because you make a thread doesn't mean that it has merit and people are therefore required to counter your invalid argument point by point.
Now you have moved the discussion away from the original topic to mid game.
If marines are unable to prevent 2nd hive they need to get pg's in key positions(max 2 outside base). The key positions are locations where they can hold at least 4-5 rt's and cover the 3rd hive area. The 2nd thing they need to do is prevent aliens from holding more than 3 resource towers, otherwise it will be really hard to lower their adv life form count.
Since marines scale better with aliens they can then focus on getting upgrades and more weapons. Then when they are ready push out(with arcs if needed) they can take down the alien hive.
Of course there are many way to do this, marines could also try to keep aliens on the defensive by pressuring one or both of their hives while teching up. This however is high risk high reward way to go.
Marines must prevent aliens from holding to many rts early game with pressure, this is also they key to hold their own rts. How hard it is for them mid game will depend how well they did early game.
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A single marine can usually defend most of the rts on map, with commanders support while the rest of the team pressures.
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I do agree though that marines should not require lvl 2 armor to take more than 2 hits from fades, this is something that needs to be adjusted.
Random spawn can also make it either harder or easier for map control, I find that when the spawns are right next to each other (like Data Core and Sub on Summit) Map control becomes very hard since the battle line is so close and you need to pay so much extra attention to keeping the other team out of your base.
Also, there are Pro players or even just Real good players (normally they have kills that are over 30 at the end of the game) that can make the game feel very unbalanced early on when that lone skulk not only kills all your RTs but all your marines trying to stop him.
Believe it or not NS2 build 199 feel like the most balanced build I have ever played and I have been playing since Build 130
Things can go either way almost every game and I am seeing that grouping up and listing to the Comm and playing as a team is become the way that the winning team keeps winning.
These defensive abilities such as turrets and shield need a bit of a boost i think. At the moment I think turrets should become available for a much cheaper price (perhaps 15 for robo and 5 for turret) but then it costs say 15 res to upgrade for teir 2 turets which are the strength they currently are now and those ones cost 10 res each. That way turrets in early game can serve as a cheap detterence to lone skulks but then still come into their own as a reckonable base defence later on. Shield needs to regain or cost less enery aswell i think, i've seen many games lost by good use of shield which is then punished by 2 skulks camping and killing ips while the rines are trying their hardest to rush back to base while the rest of their team is being spawn killed because their com cant beacon.
Another issue is phase gates, which instantly turn into death traps when 1-2 skulks camp it, especially in early game, which is when map control is so important. Im not sure what needs doing here, perhaps the marines come out of the phase gate with a 1 second shield on them or something? Not sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're trying to fix a bunch of things which aren't broken with solutions that are overpowered. 5 tres sentry guns? Invulnerable coming out of phase gates?
<!--quoteo(post=1911570:date=Mar 9 2012, 10:43 AM:name=Ice30)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ice30 @ Mar 9 2012, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1911570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do. I Find if i just stay out of combat as aliens and take out RTs i can win the game for my team, sure its boring to play like this but i'm gauranteed to win...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What happens when you fight competent marines? All it takes is 1 shotgun with a welder to defend and repair 3-4 RTs. The other 5-8 marines on his team can push/pressure/build forward bases.
Cheap turrets? Play the game. Static defenses are meant to SLOW the enemy at choke-points and assist defenders. NOT be sprinkled around liberally to compensate for a team that doesn't work together, or incompetent players.
PG invulnerability? Don't over-stretch your lines and just dump a PG out in the middle of nowhere. Set up a mini-base. Again, *play the game*. If your PG gets overrun, that's your bad. An offensive PG is a classic NS1 tactic. High risk, high reward, and VERY likely to get eaten if it's discovered before 2-4 marines are through and defending it. Even then, unless they're setting up a mini-base, it was generally considered a one-shot 'disposable'. No Marines around/attacking the nearby hive? You're likely going to get eaten, jumping through. Simple as that. If they're camping it, it's up to the Comm to *recycle* that deathtrap before any more of his team are lost to it.
I see the marine skill floor and skill ceiling both much higher than for aliens. In effect, the learning curve for marines is much higher than aliens, but you can improve your chance of winning more by mastering marines (aiming well, comm micro, etc) than by mastering aliens.
This leads to an interesting situation in NS2 where marines can be both severely underpowered or overpowered early game depending on the aggregate skill of the marine team. For example, I'd suspect that aliens would win most of the time in a matchup between newb marine team vs newb alien team (higher skill floor more of a penalty for marines). On the other hand, marines are likely to dominate any encounters in skilled marine team vs skilled alien team (higher skill ceiling favors the marines).
In effect, I see a need to do a better job of equalizing the skill floor and ceilings between the sides. The best situation, imo, would be a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling (similar to Chess's easy to learn, difficult to master). As such, what probably needs to happen is to lower the skill floor for marines (i.e. make gameplay more forgiving for new players on marines), while increasing the skill ceiling for aliens (i.e. give aliens more ways to counter marines with very good shooting skills).
I see the marine skill floor and skill ceiling both much higher than for aliens. In effect, the learning curve for marines is much higher than aliens, but you can improve your chance of winning more by mastering marines (aiming well, comm micro, etc) than by mastering aliens.
This leads to an interesting situation in NS2 where marines can be both severely underpowered or overpowered early game depending on the aggregate skill of the marine team. For example, I'd suspect that aliens would win most of the time in a matchup between newb marine team vs newb alien team (higher skill floor more of a penalty for marines). On the other hand, marines are likely to dominate any encounters in skilled marine team vs skilled alien team (higher skill ceiling favors the marines).
In effect, I see a need to do a better job of equalizing the skill floor and ceilings between the sides. The best situation, imo, would be a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling (similar to Chess's easy to learn, difficult to master). As such, what probably needs to happen is to lower the skill floor for marines (i.e. make gameplay more forgiving for new players on marines), while increasing the skill ceiling for aliens (i.e. give aliens more ways to counter marines with very good shooting skills).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is a perfect assessment of current game play.
Yes Marines are harder to play at this point, we're all aware of this. But with a good aggressive / organized Marine team, you can still overcome the opposing team(Aliens).
If your team is fairly new, more than likely the Marines will lose, but whatever - I am just waiting for exosuit and HMG.
Base skulk movement is a huge problem. Its extremely fast and has so much air control that its incredibly hard to reliably predict skulk movement. This has ofcourse tipped the early game balance towards the alien team. So yea, crazy unpredictable skulk movement has made the shotgun (which requires alot of prediction and/or twitch) alot less useful than it was previously. Heres to hoping b200 skulk movement is better :).
I would be willing to bet that if you were able to record the winrate across every straight up skulk vs marine encounter/fight, it would have increased drastically since 198. I wouldn't be surprised if marine avg lifetime has decreased somewhat as well.
If you lose control over your phase gate exit, you should lose your phase gate.
Cheap turrets that can counter 1 skulk don't work. A cheap turret that denies skulks their mobility cheaply negates alien's main strength. Here you'd have something cheap denying alien's greatest advantage.
Base skulk movement is a huge problem. Its extremely fast and has so much air control that its incredibly hard to reliably predict skulk movement. This has ofcourse tipped the early game balance towards the alien team. So yea, crazy unpredictable skulk movement has made the shotgun (which requires alot of prediction and/or twitch) alot less useful than it was previously. Heres to hoping b200 skulk movement is better :).
I would be willing to bet that if you were able to record the winrate across every straight up skulk vs marine encounter/fight, it would have increased drastically since 198. I wouldn't be surprised if marine avg lifetime has decreased somewhat as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats good to know, I thought I've just got worse at shooting
Base skulk movement is a huge problem. Its extremely fast and has so much air control that its incredibly hard to reliably predict skulk movement. This has ofcourse tipped the early game balance towards the alien team. So yea, crazy unpredictable skulk movement has made the shotgun (which requires alot of prediction and/or twitch) alot less useful than it was previously. Heres to hoping b200 skulk movement is better :).
I would be willing to bet that if you were able to record the winrate across every straight up skulk vs marine encounter/fight, it would have increased drastically since 198. I wouldn't be surprised if marine avg lifetime has decreased somewhat as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with this. Skulks are already HUGE and very easy targets. Once hit reg gets fixed and they die in the 10 bullets they should we wont have a problem. Saying you want to nerf skulk movement because marines cant aim... really? Come on now.
Seems like you need to play aliens a little more and see how much skulks get owned when marines CAN aim in the current patch.
and btw skulk movement will only get faster and have more air control/movement mechanic.