Aliens Lose Upgrades Late Game?
MeisterX
Join Date: 2012-02-29 Member: 147725Members
Join Date: 2012-02-29 Member: 147725Members
Hey guys,
So I've noticed as we go into long "war of attrition" games often it becomes a battle of who can take down whose comm stations and hives at what times. Sometimes both teams are down to one base and are struggling to stay in the fight.
The game balance starts to break down because as both teams become disorganized individual play gets highlighted and if the Aliens lose a crag or shade hive, they automatically LOSE those upgrades while Marines keep their 3-3 upgrades. This seems a bit unfair that all of a sudden late game carapace is no longer available, etc. etc.
I understand if this is the direction NS2 wants to go but I've seen that this happens often on the alien side. Of course, this applies really only to how the balance exists NOW and could totally be changed as we approach launch. Just thought I'd put this point out there to get some perspective. It's quite common to lose one's Hive and I understand losing the strength if the shells go down but having the upgrade be UNAVAILABLE? Come on, that's not cool...
So I've noticed as we go into long "war of attrition" games often it becomes a battle of who can take down whose comm stations and hives at what times. Sometimes both teams are down to one base and are struggling to stay in the fight.
The game balance starts to break down because as both teams become disorganized individual play gets highlighted and if the Aliens lose a crag or shade hive, they automatically LOSE those upgrades while Marines keep their 3-3 upgrades. This seems a bit unfair that all of a sudden late game carapace is no longer available, etc. etc.
I understand if this is the direction NS2 wants to go but I've seen that this happens often on the alien side. Of course, this applies really only to how the balance exists NOW and could totally be changed as we approach launch. Just thought I'd put this point out there to get some perspective. It's quite common to lose one's Hive and I understand losing the strength if the shells go down but having the upgrade be UNAVAILABLE? Come on, that's not cool...
Comments
When a Crag Hive goes down, usually so do the Shells built nearby. The Alien team loses one alien lifeform (often a direct counter to whatever the Marine team is fielding at that time), an entire class of upgrades and potentially some sort of ability(ies) for the remaining alien classes to use. Playing as Aliens with one Hive versus Jetpacks late-game is dire, with no effective tools to combat the enemy. Nor upgrades to keep up, nor Leap, etc. Just removing Alien lifeforms would be crippling enough to merit wanting to protect one's Hives. I think that alien abilities such as Leap should not be removed once their requisite Hive is destroyed. As far as I know, certain abilities will require a certain number of Hives for reasons concerning early game balance. By my understanding, giving Skulks leap as soon as Fades become available, even if the second hive gets killed as soon as it goes up, wouldn't be game-breaking at all.
I kind of like how passive upgrades such as armour are tied to Shells/Veils. However, if a Crag Hive goes down, it's IMO too easy to rush another Hive with the intention of killing off the Shells there, then requiring the Khamm to not only secure a new Hive with no armour upgrades, but to also restore those tech structures after the new Hive goes up. It's too much sim-city work to catch up after the Marines gain ground.
Also, being thrown back to beginning-of-the-game tech while the Marines jet around with Shotguns isn't much fun.
That's good to know, but the arms lab rarely ever dies part-way through a game. If Marine upgrades persisted even after the arms lab goes down, I don't think anyone would notice. With that said, the same is not true for the alien team, and I think that is fundamentally making late-game catchup painful for the aliens.
Marine tech such as Arms lab are easily replaced, can have redundancy backups, and can be built anywhere, unlike Hives.
Due to the fragile nature of most lifeforms, aliens are great at hit-n-run tactics, but are at a disadvantage against a full frontal Marine assault.
Aliens are often on a slippery slope once they lose a Hive. Not only do they lose higher tier lifeforms and abilities, but vital upgrades such as carapace as well.
Kharaa should be able to build all upgrade structures (Whip, Shell, Spur and Veil) at all times. There is already a limit on the maximum number upgrades each player can evolve based on Hive count. This will allow Aliens to a chance to fight back against Marines, should they lose a Hive.
So, while marine upgrades cannot be easily taken out, advanced weapons can.
Of course you wouldn't be able to build any more of them until an appropriate hive type was created again.
now since this is a beta im sure things will change, but i doubt that alien upgrades will be untied from the hives.
Really? I don't think that's right. I've always noted that you lose the upgrades when the hive goes down, regardless of whether or not the tech structures remain. I'll go check it out.
Also I never put the first 3 shells/spurs etc in the same hive. Share them out. You shouldn't need to upgrade to 3 tech before 2nd hive anyway, so it's not difficult to spread them around :)
I agree with Arkanti, you definitely can't use upgrades even if you still have the shells/veil around if the associated hive was killed. There's a similar bug with players - apparently you can't evolve into a different life form if you have an upgrade paid for that is no longer available, you have to first take it off losing the 2 res if the upgrade were to become available again.
I like the idea that Marines get an increase in power in some form from extra command stations, apart from denying Hives.
Binding upgrades to command stations only creates a similar slippery slope Kharaas are experiencing now, for the Marines. The upside is, Marines can rebuild a Command Station much quicker than Kharaas can complete Hives.