Are Aliens too weak?
Price
Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I guess with one hive they totally are.</div><b>Before you cry and say no, read this! The whole Text!</b>
I play mostly aliens and this situation which will tell you, happend a lot on public matches.
The problem is, aliens are helpless with just one hive.
A lot of times marines secure rooms with sentrys, mines, phase gates (which got a extreme big armor Bonus (Increased phase gate armor from 150 to 450) or just jetpacks.
What can aliens do if marines secure that places?
The aliens are doomed because there is no counterpart to sentrys or jetpacks or mines with just one hive.
Sure, you can say "don't let that happend", the problem is, it happend a lot, because its so simple for marines to secure a room, just build a powernode and 2 sentrys...there you go.
For example in mineshaft, there is like no vents, of course you can say because its a freaking mine, but there could be holes/tunnels from one room to another, but there arent.
So most of the map is like 2 entrys for one room, also a lot of stuck points and 'unreachable points' for onos but thats not the point yet.
If im alien, what can i do to take out just one little (second-)base of marines?
Remember i can just go skulk, lerk or gorge, all these lifeforms die in like 1.5 seconds in front of a sentrys and only the lerk and gorge have weak range weapons.
If there is a mine, they can shoot it or a skulk can walk over it, because he lost nothing.
But if there is a bunch of sentrys, for example just 4, 2 watching in each entry and the other 2 in each direction, how can aliens kill them?
Specialy if a marine or more comes, they have no chance.
So there is no way! specialy if the alien commander don't research regeneration.
The only thing aliens could try to do is getting a second hive, and increase the winning chance a bit.
But a fade is also very weak, i mean take a look at the balance stuff:
ShotgunDamage = 24
kShotgunBulletsPerShot = 10
which is max. 240 HP in Damage, the fade has FadeHealth = 200 HP(+Armor = 50)
So like one hit, he is dead, or very close to death (idk how much armor absorbe it or how much carapace add...).
A fade need 2 hits to kill just one marine and only if the Marines armor is LEVEL 1 ARMOR...just level 1 armor! (+if you are a skulk it feels like you need 4 bites for one marine.)
It is very hard, specialy if there is just more then 1 marine.
If the lerk has umbra with hive 2, this would change a lot, because it prevent against sentrys, against marine rifles and shotguns.
Also the lerk could support his teammates.
But if they have a fade and the player spend his res to fade, what did a fade lost on death? 50 Resources!
What did a marine lost on death? Nothing, only his weapon which he can pick up again or his teammate. (allow aliens to destroy weapons which lie on the ground?)
And lets talk about the alien defence, whips are good in close rooms, also well placed hydras...but its pointless if marines just have a arc, grenade launcher or flamethrower, which can researched and purchased without leaving the base.
So marines can just defend and stay in base...
Okay this will result (mostly) in aliens got onos and stuff.
But i want say that marines don't need to spread out very much, they just have to kill rts/build rts and wait...wait for the new tech.
What have aliens to do?
They have to spread out, build a second hive, players have to secure it, because the alien commander can not defend them and if aliens try to defend it, its to hard because one shotgun hit, kills a skulk, lerk and gorge.
So after they try and fail, the game is close to lose, because aliens have no ressources left, marines can kill a cyst in a second and the alien commander has no energy left for drifters and cysts.
I like cysts, but they are way to weak, they should get more Healthpoints in my opinion, 1-2 marines kill a cysts very very fast...can you say that for a powernode?
Specialy if you are a fade it take ages and you can not just go skulk to destroy it.
Can you tell me one marine weapon which take ages to destroy any alien structure or lifeform? I guess no.
I think marines are way to powerfully right now.
I like playing marines and of course they can lose fast too, but they have a lot of powefull weapons/toys if they have just one "techpoint" (base).
And the most of the time, marines lose only because of gorge bilebomb in marine base + onos or the marine players just run arround like chickens without any idea what to do.
In my mind aliens have a big handicap right now, marines weak point with techpoints is already removed.
I hope you understand my point, even with my bad english and yes im tired...so my text could be written a bit confused.
Please do NOT bit**ing, if you think im wrong, tell me why.
p.s. i like both teams very much and i love that they are different.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>Corrected spelling a bit in topic title. --Zaggy</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I play mostly aliens and this situation which will tell you, happend a lot on public matches.
The problem is, aliens are helpless with just one hive.
A lot of times marines secure rooms with sentrys, mines, phase gates (which got a extreme big armor Bonus (Increased phase gate armor from 150 to 450) or just jetpacks.
What can aliens do if marines secure that places?
The aliens are doomed because there is no counterpart to sentrys or jetpacks or mines with just one hive.
Sure, you can say "don't let that happend", the problem is, it happend a lot, because its so simple for marines to secure a room, just build a powernode and 2 sentrys...there you go.
For example in mineshaft, there is like no vents, of course you can say because its a freaking mine, but there could be holes/tunnels from one room to another, but there arent.
So most of the map is like 2 entrys for one room, also a lot of stuck points and 'unreachable points' for onos but thats not the point yet.
If im alien, what can i do to take out just one little (second-)base of marines?
Remember i can just go skulk, lerk or gorge, all these lifeforms die in like 1.5 seconds in front of a sentrys and only the lerk and gorge have weak range weapons.
If there is a mine, they can shoot it or a skulk can walk over it, because he lost nothing.
But if there is a bunch of sentrys, for example just 4, 2 watching in each entry and the other 2 in each direction, how can aliens kill them?
Specialy if a marine or more comes, they have no chance.
So there is no way! specialy if the alien commander don't research regeneration.
The only thing aliens could try to do is getting a second hive, and increase the winning chance a bit.
But a fade is also very weak, i mean take a look at the balance stuff:
ShotgunDamage = 24
kShotgunBulletsPerShot = 10
which is max. 240 HP in Damage, the fade has FadeHealth = 200 HP(+Armor = 50)
So like one hit, he is dead, or very close to death (idk how much armor absorbe it or how much carapace add...).
A fade need 2 hits to kill just one marine and only if the Marines armor is LEVEL 1 ARMOR...just level 1 armor! (+if you are a skulk it feels like you need 4 bites for one marine.)
It is very hard, specialy if there is just more then 1 marine.
If the lerk has umbra with hive 2, this would change a lot, because it prevent against sentrys, against marine rifles and shotguns.
Also the lerk could support his teammates.
But if they have a fade and the player spend his res to fade, what did a fade lost on death? 50 Resources!
What did a marine lost on death? Nothing, only his weapon which he can pick up again or his teammate. (allow aliens to destroy weapons which lie on the ground?)
And lets talk about the alien defence, whips are good in close rooms, also well placed hydras...but its pointless if marines just have a arc, grenade launcher or flamethrower, which can researched and purchased without leaving the base.
So marines can just defend and stay in base...
Okay this will result (mostly) in aliens got onos and stuff.
But i want say that marines don't need to spread out very much, they just have to kill rts/build rts and wait...wait for the new tech.
What have aliens to do?
They have to spread out, build a second hive, players have to secure it, because the alien commander can not defend them and if aliens try to defend it, its to hard because one shotgun hit, kills a skulk, lerk and gorge.
So after they try and fail, the game is close to lose, because aliens have no ressources left, marines can kill a cyst in a second and the alien commander has no energy left for drifters and cysts.
I like cysts, but they are way to weak, they should get more Healthpoints in my opinion, 1-2 marines kill a cysts very very fast...can you say that for a powernode?
Specialy if you are a fade it take ages and you can not just go skulk to destroy it.
Can you tell me one marine weapon which take ages to destroy any alien structure or lifeform? I guess no.
I think marines are way to powerfully right now.
I like playing marines and of course they can lose fast too, but they have a lot of powefull weapons/toys if they have just one "techpoint" (base).
And the most of the time, marines lose only because of gorge bilebomb in marine base + onos or the marine players just run arround like chickens without any idea what to do.
In my mind aliens have a big handicap right now, marines weak point with techpoints is already removed.
I hope you understand my point, even with my bad english and yes im tired...so my text could be written a bit confused.
Please do NOT bit**ing, if you think im wrong, tell me why.
p.s. i like both teams very much and i love that they are different.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>Corrected spelling a bit in topic title. --Zaggy</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Comments
At the same time, the egg and cyst mechanics both punish aliens severely any time the marines deal damage to extremely weak immobile targets. Both of these mechanics can snowball out of control and put the aliens in a checkmated state, whereas for marines the power nodes and IPs can be rebuilt very quickly (since they aren't directly bottlenecked by hive energy or game time).
So...yes, it's a problem. I don't really know what else to say.
fades:
1. You are missing that as long as marines dont have armor 2 they die in 2 swipes, and a fade can at least get 1 swipe without even giving the marine a chance to dodge or react.
2. Because of the way the shotgun dmg works, your math is only true for point blank range. (maxdmg is 24, mindmg is 1, the further a way a fade is the less dmg a bullet does and because of a 20° spread the less bullets will hit)
3. Frenzy which makes every marine into a medpack
4. Regeneration which lets you regen health if you need a short break
5. Blink which can make you invulnerable and easy to get away if your health is low
6. Possible Gorges around a corner to regenerate health even faster
Because of blink as a fade you decide how a fight starts, ofc if you blink into 3 marines looking in your direction with shotguns you might get instakilled... but you are not a tank, you are an assassin. You pick a target and quickly kill it, you are still required to have teammates engage in combat too if there are lots of marines and you are still required to play smart.
2ips, obs, armory, shotguns, armslab, armor 2, phasetech, 2phasegates = 155 res (now if we start with sentrys, jetpacks, armor upgrades or advanced weapons we are getting into over 300res requirements fast)
Aliens need 75 for the 2nd hive and 80 for all important other techchambers. (carapace, frenzy, regeneration, swarm, you will save the res and wait until the 2nd hive is nearly up so in case your team is too bad to hold the 2nd hive you can drop another one fast) = 145res
These numbers are missing resource towers, but aliens can on every map at least get 3rts from start a 4th with gorge a little bit later.
A hive has 5000hp and 500armor, provides spawnpoints regenerates health, doesnt need alien interaction and works as a extra cyst base.
Its kinda like a combo of CC, ips and armory.
A CC has 2000hp and 1500armor but you need extra structures to get the same effect (10 res per ip or armory) and it needs units to build it(which means they cant defend or attack other stuff while doing this) + marines are slower so its very hard to defend a 2nd CC. (+ you cant waste res on that or you will lack resources for needed other stuff to stay alive against fades etc.)
After a 2nd hives is in the game aliens now have 2x 5000health 500armor buildings that are a good amount away from eachother - marines need to kill both of them to win the game, but also resource towers so they cant drop more. (after the 145res aliens dont really need anything else then hives)
So aliens now have 2 bases while marines only have 1, which means aliens can be more aggressive(and marines can focus alien rts even less, because they have to get rid of hives) - if marines want to pressure your hive you only have to pressure their base... since they only got 1 base they need to be a lot more careful. Now depending on how good aliens did with pressuring marine rts in early game its easier or harder to do this.
Marines cant turtle in base from beginning because then aliens rts are up all the time and all the res can go into tech instead of rebuilding rts.
Cyst problems, all your problems are solved with gorge use in addition to hive energy...
Note: i havent really played with this patch, and im pretty sure now marines got a proper(a lot higher) chance to also put aliens into defense by pressuring rts(so better organized marine teams have it easier to stomp weaker alien teams, and not like before were even if you didnt really have any teamwork as aliens you got a chance to win)... it might be a little bit too strong now.
<u>Offtopic, balance talk:</u>
Balance from marines might need to be shifted from super strong respawn times into getting other tech options more viable and evening out strong weakpoints like powernodes(or getting over all more options/viable techroutes from early game, currently there is only really one viable techpath - you might as well only allow marine commanders to drop medpacks and autobuild every tech depending on res income and time into a game) and reducing the respawnrate again.
Also other problems come from the resource system, energy needs to go. And a lot more...
The gameplay becomes really predictable because of this, especially in fixed spawns 6vs6 games. In summit, aliens will always try to go for Data Core and marines will always try to plant a phasegate there and in FC. In turtle, it's the Loading rush every time. If marines manage to get the phasegates down and take the hive down, it's pretty much gg. If aliens get the hive up, it's pretty much gg. It always doesn't go like this, but in the majority of the matches it does.
Gorge has as much health as fade at no carapace, by the way.
no they arent, marines can almost instantly boost their attack strength when they get shotguns. or a com rush gl/ft. coupled with the fact that the shotgun deals way too much dmg midrange...
1 shot kills over and over again and its even easier than ns1 as skulks are now bigger, slower AND weaker. even with carapace, with upgrades the marines can still one hit you.
devs want skulks to wait in the shadows and attack but
1 - they are too weak to do this as alien victory depends on pushing out of the hive to capture territory before the marines can.
2 - cysts MAY cost too much and are vulnerable
3 - hydras are far too weak, they are cartoonishly bad. you need at least 5 in one area to kill someone. thats 50 res just to kill one marine
bottom line is camping aliens almost always get cornered into their hive and lose. but they are too weak to push out. they dont even have a good attacker till onos. and now that the awe is wearing off, onos are getting killed more often. MAYBE if lerk were actually made to be what it was instead of a tweener with no really strong attributes , it would even itself out as a support lerk could umbra hive 2 fades or a costly onos. instead lerks are terribly useless after the first 5 minutes as shotguns can pick them off insanely easily and they cant shoot gas spores anymore. so you have to take your weak character into a meat grinder to deal your 2-3 damage and die. lol
lerk shouldve never been nerfed as bad as it has been.
toldja so.
I will go in to a bit of detail for you
First off, when dealing with each side, you have to always take in to consideration in any game you play, how experienced are the players you're playing with?
-Teamwork
-Individual Skill
-Commander Experience
-Map Control
-Ventrilo + Friends ( Playing on one team )
These factors should always be considered. I have seen both factions take hard knocks making the faction your on, look timid and weak, this revolves around the list I have provided above. One player alone can set the pace of a team, one commander who takes charge, knows what he is doing can lead a pack of infants to the game and make them prevail, it is all decided on who your playing with.
Like any game, these rules will always apply, especially when there are so many factors to consider in a game like NS2, it isn't just an FPS, it also an RTS and an Arena type game when you really step back and look at the big picture. Right now as it stands, I think both factions are relatively balanced. Could some tweaks be done? sure, but I could even say that about modern games that have been out for years, just learn what is the other teams weakness and what needs to be done on your side to help your team win.
The game isn't finished, allow UWE to do what they do best, balance and create the game we all want to love.
The lowered egg spawn rate with one hive means that if decent marines push with shotguns, they can often end the game quickly. Aliens simply don't have the spawn rate to fight an aggressive marine push with shotguns and medpack spam. Where as marines can build extra IPs to deal with skulk attrition, aliens are left out to dry.
Aliens can't spread very quickly without a gorge or two to assist with cysts (which diverts players from actively harassing marines). Since a commander has to lay a trail of cysts and fly a drifter all the way out to res nodes, it takes them some time to spread. Meanwhile, it seems a team of 3 marines can go around the map and cap off 2 res nodes for every one the alien commander can secure.
Aliens don't have a good way to deal with buildings and defenses. A small outpost with a sentry or two and maybe a mine behind the sentries can hold off the aliens by themselves until bile bomb comes along. A lerk can take these down eventually, but it takes a very long time. Meanwhile a marine or two can easily dispense whips and hydras without too much risk.
Ofc this all changes at 2 hives, as the aliens now have bile bomb that handily defeats marines defenses, and fade which allows a skilled player to zip in and drop a marine and get out alive.
Thats the point of this discussion...helping UWE make the game more balanced.
I guess we "the public" players play a lot more then the UWE Team did.
And with play i mean rounds, not just hop in-game and test something. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1905417:date=Feb 21 2012, 11:04 AM:name=Killde)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Killde @ Feb 21 2012, 11:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens do feel very weak at one hive atm. This is for a few reasons.
The lowered egg spawn rate with one hive means that if decent marines push with shotguns, they can often end the game quickly. Aliens simply don't have the spawn rate to fight an aggressive marine push with shotguns and medpack spam. Where as marines can build extra IPs to deal with skulk attrition, aliens are left out to dry.
Aliens can't spread very quickly without a gorge or two to assist with cysts (which diverts players from actively harassing marines). Since a commander has to lay a trail of cysts and fly a drifter all the way out to res nodes, it takes them some time to spread. Meanwhile, it seems a team of 3 marines can go around the map and cap off 2 res nodes for every one the alien commander can secure.
Aliens don't have a good way to deal with buildings and defenses. A small outpost with a sentry or two and maybe a mine behind the sentries can hold off the aliens by themselves until bile bomb comes along. A lerk can take these down eventually, but it takes a very long time. Meanwhile a marine or two can easily dispense whips and hydras without too much risk.
Ofc this all changes at 2 hives, as the aliens now have bile bomb that handily defeats marines defenses, and fade which allows a skilled player to zip in and drop a marine and get out alive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly!
<!--quoteo(post=1905394:date=Feb 21 2012, 08:26 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Feb 21 2012, 08:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no they arent, marines can almost instantly boost their attack strength when they get shotguns. or a com rush gl/ft. coupled with the fact that the shotgun deals way too much dmg midrange...
1 shot kills over and over again and its even easier than ns1 as skulks are now bigger, slower AND weaker. even with carapace, with upgrades the marines can still one hit you.
devs want skulks to wait in the shadows and attack but
1 - they are too weak to do this as alien victory depends on pushing out of the hive to capture territory before the marines can.
2 - cysts MAY cost too much and are vulnerable
3 - hydras are far too weak, they are cartoonishly bad. you need at least 5 in one area to kill someone. thats 50 res just to kill one marine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same here, very good points and i can say it happend a lot that marines rush the alien hive, because of Killde's Eggs spawn problematic.
<!--quoteo(post=1905389:date=Feb 21 2012, 08:12 AM:name=tocz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tocz @ Feb 21 2012, 08:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905389"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1 hive aliens are equal to marines without upgrades. If aliens are stuck on 1 hive by the time marines have phase gates, jet packs, and upgrades than it's their fault. 1 hive should not be viable that late in the game. It's not hard to understand.....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who talk about late in the game?
in the middle of the game aliens are checkmate if marines push out covering rts.
Marines don't have to expand, they can stay in base and just go out for rts, aliens have to spread out, build hives and stuff.
And aliens against sentrys for example, they have no chance in earlie games.
<!--quoteo(post=1905382:date=Feb 21 2012, 07:15 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 21 2012, 07:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->fades:
1. You are missing that as long as marines dont have armor 2 they die in 2 swipes, and a fade can at least get 1 swipe without even giving the marine a chance to dodge or react.
2. Because of the way the shotgun dmg works, your math is only true for point blank range. (maxdmg is 24, mindmg is 1, the further a way a fade is the less dmg a bullet does and because of a 20° spread the less bullets will hit)
3. Frenzy which makes every marine into a medpack
4. Regeneration which lets you regen health if you need a short break
5. Blink which can make you invulnerable and easy to get away if your health is low
6. Possible Gorges around a corner to regenerate health even faster<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. yes, 2 swipes for just one marine, a marine need 1 direct hit to the fade and the fade is dead.
if there just 2 marines with shotguns, the fade die faster as you can spell shotgun.
2. yes, but fades have always to be close, so its don't matter, its very easy to kill a fade (except if fps drop or lag but thats not the point)
3. but it takes about 15 seconds...now count, one (mississippi), two (mississippi)...it takes a long time, so fade have to blink out, but like i said, one direct hit is instant kill land lost 50 res.
4. same as 3. you have to run away(if blink is empty), while marines kill all your rts and stuff.
5. only if you are not on fire and you are alive, remember just one hit kills you and there more then just one marine
6. yes, a mobile armory with a energy problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1905382:date=Feb 21 2012, 07:15 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 21 2012, 07:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because of blink as a fade you decide how a fight starts, ofc if you blink into 3 marines looking in your direction with shotguns you might get instakilled... but you are not a tank, you are an assassin. You pick a target and quickly kill it, you are still required to have teammates engage in combat too if there are lots of marines and you are still required to play smart.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is you don't even have a big chance.
If a marine is for example in a corner, you have to move in front of him, one hit = instant death.
So if 4 marines go in each corner, you have no chance.
A lerk with spores like in ns1 could "move them" out, or if the spores just fall down.
<!--quoteo(post=1905382:date=Feb 21 2012, 07:15 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 21 2012, 07:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you will save the res and wait until the 2nd hive is nearly up so in case your team is too bad to hold the 2nd hive you can drop another one fast) = 145res<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the marines don't have to spread out and build second cc and secure it, they can just stay in base, secure them like fort knox and spread out for rts/killing rts.
These numbers are missing resource towers, but aliens can on every map at least get 3rts from start a 4th with gorge a little bit later.
A hive has 5000hp and 500armor, provides spawnpoints regenerates health, doesnt need alien interaction and works as a extra cyst base.
Its kinda like a combo of CC, ips and armory.
A CC has 2000hp and 1500armor but you need extra structures to get the same effect (10 res per ip or armory) and it needs units to build it(which means they cant defend or attack other stuff while doing this) + marines are slower so its very hard to defend a 2nd CC. (+ you cant waste res on that or you will lack resources for needed other stuff to stay alive against fades etc.)
<!--quoteo(post=1905382:date=Feb 21 2012, 07:15 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 21 2012, 07:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2ips, obs, armory, shotguns, armslab, armor 2, phasetech, 2phasegates = 155 res (now if we start with sentrys, jetpacks, armor upgrades or advanced weapons we are getting into over 300res requirements fast)
Aliens need 75 for the 2nd hive and 80 for all important other techchambers. (carapace, frenzy, regeneration, swarm, you will save the res and wait until the 2nd hive is nearly up so in case your team is too bad to hold the 2nd hive you can drop another one fast) = 145res<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, no, mariens don't have to research all this just to defend a second base.
armory 10res (they already build one because they need it at all not because of sentry)
a Robotics factory 20 res, so just 30 res and from this point, marines can place everywhere in the map sentrys, which is impossible for aliens to kill if they only have 1 hive.
i mean there is no way for a skulk/gorge or lerk to kill those sentrys, they do so much damage, if you see them you have just like 3 seconds and if there is more then 1 you are already dead.
<!--quoteo(post=1905382:date=Feb 21 2012, 07:15 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 21 2012, 07:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After a 2nd hives is in the game aliens now have 2x 5000health 500armor buildings that are a good amount away from eachother - marines need to kill both of them to win the game, but also resource towers so they cant drop more. (after the 145res aliens dont really need anything else then hives)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kill a hive alone, very quick.
Yesterday one jetpack marine did the same very easy, because its hard for aliens to reach a jetpack marine.
There is no defence and if there is a whip i have my rifle and com with ammo spam.
The problem is, no alien want waste their res.
Hydras are totaly useless, 2 hydras are a joke but cost over 30 res if you are skulk, so you have more then 2, which is a cost of a fade.
Thats the reason why you never see many hydras, they are useless and if not, you waste your whole res you will cry because marines kill them faster then you can spell hydra.
I never had a problem as marine killing hydras, but as alien killing just 2 sentrys.
It maybe simpler to play in a team as marine, because the com interacts more with the other players and it is more intuitive for new players. And it is frustrating as skulk in mid or late game, to get 1hit killed. But the aliens are in no way underpowered.
I will go in to a bit of detail for you
First off, when dealing with each side, you have to always take in to consideration in any game you play, how experienced are the players you're playing with?
-Teamwork
-Individual Skill
-Commander Experience
-Map Control
-Ventrilo + Friends ( Playing on one team )
These factors should always be considered. I have seen both factions take hard knocks making the faction your on, look timid and weak, this revolves around the list I have provided above. One player alone can set the pace of a team, one commander who takes charge, knows what he is doing can lead a pack of infants to the game and make them prevail, it is all decided on who your playing with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ding ding ding we have a winner!!!!!! This is the ###### biggest issue with this game!
<!--quoteo(post=1905317:date=Feb 21 2012, 02:48 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Feb 21 2012, 02:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Before you cry and say no, read this! The whole Text!</b>
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b><i>I play mostly aliens</i></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> and this situation which will tell you, happend a lot on public matches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Before you cry and say aliens are to weak, play more marines. Go and play 10 games as marine in a row. Then come back and tell me if you think you were OP. Did you win most of the games?
Also take a look on the scoreboard from time to time, and if you see 7 players with 45 Pres in your team its normal you have a hard earlygame.
Lerks are perfect to kill sentry just cling up somewhere and kill it. Same counts for area denial, cling at a roof so you can see the feets of the marines before they enter the room and they won't enter it.
The spores of the lerk confuses the sentrys, so just spam gas and let the skulk kill the pg.
Skulks. They need to para everything. The role of the skulk in early game is to kill as many rts as possible and ambush marines. If the marines are busy rebuilding and defending RTs they don't have the time for other thing. If they don't react on the RTs getting killed its GG.
Gorge. Drops unconnected cysts at RTs so the Kahm can build an RT directly from the start, the gorge presses "E" to build the RT. The reason for this is easy, for each 8s an RT is not buil you "lose" 1 Tres. If you have 2 gorges you can have 4 RTs in 40s. Without gorges you need almost 2 min for 4 RTS, you just lost around 35 res and that is alot.
He builds hydras at roofes, the reason for this is the hydras see the marines before they see the hydra, also the marine has to look up and can't see if a Skulk is running at him. He doesn't cluster hydras, he drops the hydras at different places, the reason for this is that you have less blind spots and the hydras will hit the marine better because theyr shots arent coming from 1 direction (f.e. if 10 5 year old boys are standing infront of you its easy to avoid the snowbals they are shooting at you, but if they stand in a circle/square/V/halfcircle/etc around you they will hit you)
He heals and is always primary target of the marines often leading in freekills for other Lifeforms.
Details determine a hard or funny early game for aliens.
Edit: Forgot to say, Aliens in pub often loose because of 1 reason, the skulks just rush and die till only 1 egg is left, then 1 marine with SG or even LMG can kill the hive alone, just kill the EGG, knife the hive, shoot the EGG, knife the hive.... Did this 3 times in a row yesterday...
If aliens are stuck in 1 hive by the time marines have shotguns and two extra res nodes they're just as stuffed.
That's the problem.
a) Unlink lifeforms from amount of hives. Make them only dependent on amount of res. But more of the same lifeform in the team should cost consecutively more. (1st fade 50, second 55, third 60 etc.) This consecutive cost could be decreased based on amount of hives. And amount of upgrades aliens can have is still tied to hives.
b) Nerf shotgun. Fix firing speed when moving, increase damage falloff from range, increase research tres cost. Remove delay after jump.
c) Balance alien/marine spawning a bit more in a 2 IP vs 1 hive situation. Eggs should spawn faster (1-2 sec faster). Marines just a bit slower (1-2 sec or so).
d) Nerf fade, by means of Yuuki's fade mod, which itself needs some modifications.
I almost want to dedicate a day or two to make a mod to try some of these changes out. Especially a).
Before you cry and say aliens are to weak, play more marines. Go and play 10 games as marine in a row. Then come back and tell me if you think you were OP. Did you win most of the games?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He don't said "late games"...you are just foolish and try to troll. You don't have to swear too. Go away lil boy!
I'm only playing marines, it is easy, the problem i had is if my teammates just run around and don't listen to com's waypoints
It depends a lot about the player's.
Marines are afraid of moving out of the base if they notice a fade, that's why they lose the round.
Killing fades is as easy as killing lerks, onos is the only problem for me, but my lil flamethrower toast them.
I think it's good as it is, otherwise I would indeed play more aliens.
I love your ideas!
Im not sure if the shotgun really needs higher dmg falloff, the problem is just that there is nothing else to spend pres on - mines are not really worth it, jps and exos are/will be very lategame... It could be similar to how it works on the alien side, so ppl try to not spent too much res into this early tier stuff(1-2 ppl go lerk), instead save for better stuff(fade), and only take it if its really needed.
Or make something similar to the cost stuff of idea a, so the more ppl equip shotgun the more expensive it gets for the next one. (the only problem would be the gl, because its such a hybrid weapon in ns2)
PS: i feel like some players have no clue how ns2 plays organized, RTV + TO.
I love your ideas!
Im not sure if the shotgun really needs higher dmg falloff, the problem is just that there is nothing else to spend pres on - mines are not really worth it, jps and exos are/will be very lategame... It could be similar to how it works on the alien side, so ppl try to not spent too much res into this early tier stuff, instead save for better stuff, and only take it if its really needed.
PS: i feel like some players have no clue how ns2 plays organized, RTV + TO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are joking...you don't even play the game
<!--quoteo(post=1905382:date=Feb 21 2012, 07:15 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 21 2012, 07:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Note: i havent really played with this patch<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) Unlink lifeforms from amount of hives. Make them only dependent on amount of res. But more of the same lifeform in the team should cost consecutively more. (1st fade 50, second 55, third 60 etc.) This consecutive cost could be decreased based on amount of hives. And amount of upgrades aliens can have is still tied to hives.
b) Nerf shotgun. Fix firing speed when moving, increase damage falloff from range, increase research tres cost. Remove delay after jump.
c) Balance alien/marine spawning a bit more in a 2 IP vs 1 hive situation. Eggs should spawn faster (1-2 sec faster). Marines just a bit slower (1-2 sec or so).
d) Nerf fade, by means of Yuuki's fade mod, which itself needs some modifications.
I almost want to dedicate a day or two to make a mod to try some of these changes out. Especially a).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with increesed cost on lifefroms by numbers, it will work very well in competitive matches but it will be really annoying for people playing on public. It would be better to have it a fixed cost that would get decreesed when 2nd hive is up. The best solution would be to allow players to go all adv lifeforms on 1 hive. If Frenzy is removed/changed fades won't be such a powerhouse like they are now. there is also huge diffrence between fade with only 1 upgrade and a fade with 2 chamber upgrades.
The biggest problem with fades atm is how easy it is for them to escape, since their hitboxes shrink at the same time they blink(and they always have energy to blink) it allows good fades to go into risky situations and survive with relative ease. Also he does not have to go back to base/gorge if he manage to get a kill with frenzy, he just heals up. I don't think frenzy fits into the ns universe and gameplay.
I have 2 suggestions about the blink:
1. Have fades keep their hitboxes when they are blinking, that way they can still be picked off while they are blinking and marines will be able to block them from escaping.
2. Major increese in initial blink cost and lower the cost while you are blinking. This will prevent it from being spammed and fades will have to have enough energy left to escape afterwards. This will also make flamers more viable.
Wrong! The blink has a delay.
I'm only playing marines, it is easy, the problem i had is if my teammates just run around and don't listen to com's waypoints
It depends a lot about the player's.
Marines are afraid of moving out of the base if they notice a fade, that's why they lose the round.
Killing fades is as easy as killing lerks, onos is the only problem for me, but my lil flamethrower toast them.
I think it's good as it is, otherwise I would indeed play more aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Calm down, pal. Accusing someone of trolling, just because his opinion differs from yours is so much worse than being wrong in the first place. Let's just keep a better tone here. I'm sorry you feel offended because I said "marines have done something f...ing right". That was in no way intended to insult you or anybody else in this forum. I hope it's okay I stay a little longer with or without your consent...
As of my understanding this:
"A lot of times marines secure rooms with sentrys, mines, phase gates (which got a extreme big armor Bonus (Increased phase gate armor from 150 to 450) or just jetpacks."
describes pretty much late mid to early lategame. I understand that from an FPS point of view it is very frustrating to be outteched like this, but if you take that tech difference away, then you can just take the whole techtree-RTS-mechanics out of the game.
In my opinion it's like this: if aliens don't manage to get the second hive up, marine team is very probably the more skilled team and deserves to win.
Interesting delay(never noticed it/guess its new), wonder who thought about this "crap" (sorry) in the uwe office... there is no delay if you hold blink for ~1-2s, but if you only make a short blink there is a delay of like 1second...
Yay hidden inconsistent delay times everywhere - thats the way to go!
If you dont know this behaviour its the best way to get instakilled only because you made a short blink instead holding it a tiny bit longer.
I can only hope this is a bug, otherwise my faith into uwe took a big hit.
The delays on some marine weapons after jumping are bad enough.
Not fixed yet, if thats not a bug either.... :X
Yay hidden inconsistent delay times everywhere - thats the way to go!
If you dont know this behaviour its the best way to get instakilled only because you made a short blink instead holding it a tiny bit longer.
Can only hope this is a bug, otherwise my faith into uwe took a big hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree
Adding delay like that will probably make the fade feel unresponsive, it's poor solution because it can make players annoyed and they may not relize there is a delay. It's better to fine tune the mechanics that are already in place.
As of my understanding this:
"A lot of times marines secure rooms with sentrys, mines, phase gates (which got a extreme big armor Bonus (Increased phase gate armor from 150 to 450) or just jetpacks."
describes pretty much late mid to early lategame. I understand that from an FPS point of view it is very frustrating to be outteched like this, but if you take that tech difference away, then you can just take the whole techtree-RTS-mechanics out of the game.
In my opinion it's like this: if aliens don't manage to get the second hive up, marine team is very probably the more skilled team and deserves to win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
with the ip at start and the extra 10 res, i've seen more games going for early robo factory and 2+ sentrys in the hive locations.
Also taking out sentrys as a lerk is no big problem if you have enough time and no marine is around. But the bases are not long left alone. Also i guess the welder will be in the game soon, with it hit and runs to destroy buildings will become more difficult since marines can repair the buildings easily. Bilebombs will also lose part of their danger because you wont need the macs anymore, so you can repair while gorge bilebombs.