Another quick thought...
internetexplorer
Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Members
Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Members
<div class="IPBDescription">About recycling</div>The aliens need to have something equivalent to the marines' recycle ability. Otherwise the game simply isn't fair.
Discuss.
<b>Here's my take on it:</b>
We just had a really back-and-forth game where both teams were eating the other team's resource towers like crazy. Lots of combat and fighting for map control. It was a very good game in the sense that both teams were trying really hard and lots of stuff was happening. At the end of it all, though, when we lost our last resource tower as the aliens, and ran out of money, we were sunk. In the mean time, the marines can recycle their buildings (like that extra infantry portal that they now have) to build resource towers when the game is in an extremely low-economy state. If we could recycle something like our shell to buy a resource tower, we would have kept trying and maybe won (the game was actually that close), but the option wasn't there. It's silly to have it for one team and not the other.
There are also tons of games where the whole alien team is bored with the game not ending, but they can't elect to recycle their stuff and suicide like the marines. Until there's a proper way to forfeit a game, this is another downside of the aliens not being able to recycle.
I feel like I need to play the "NS1" card here, too. With gorges being able to build resource towers, team res isn't the bottleneck in situations like that. At the same time, it's probably more useful to take a chance on building a resource tower than evolve to lerk and go more "all-in" against the marines team that has the advantage. It might help the game a lot to have the aliens' production a bit less centralized (beyond mini cysts and hydras).
Discuss.
<b>Here's my take on it:</b>
We just had a really back-and-forth game where both teams were eating the other team's resource towers like crazy. Lots of combat and fighting for map control. It was a very good game in the sense that both teams were trying really hard and lots of stuff was happening. At the end of it all, though, when we lost our last resource tower as the aliens, and ran out of money, we were sunk. In the mean time, the marines can recycle their buildings (like that extra infantry portal that they now have) to build resource towers when the game is in an extremely low-economy state. If we could recycle something like our shell to buy a resource tower, we would have kept trying and maybe won (the game was actually that close), but the option wasn't there. It's silly to have it for one team and not the other.
There are also tons of games where the whole alien team is bored with the game not ending, but they can't elect to recycle their stuff and suicide like the marines. Until there's a proper way to forfeit a game, this is another downside of the aliens not being able to recycle.
I feel like I need to play the "NS1" card here, too. With gorges being able to build resource towers, team res isn't the bottleneck in situations like that. At the same time, it's probably more useful to take a chance on building a resource tower than evolve to lerk and go more "all-in" against the marines team that has the advantage. It might help the game a lot to have the aliens' production a bit less centralized (beyond mini cysts and hydras).
Comments
and i agree, obviously. (dont know who wouldnt?)
but make them EAT IT!! not just *poof* recycled w/ phasetech. -_-
a lot of people seem to have a problem with this concept, i've realized lately on the forums...
those slight number differences are all easily changeable in LUA mostly, and can be adjusted <u>after </u>the gross design imbalances are ,er, <i>balanced</i>.
read the story I posted which came from a real game (and has probably happened several times before)
if aliens have an abundance of resources it might be because the lerk isn't worth evolving...
If the commander recycles a team member personal res like a mini cysts or hydra that member should get the personal res back it should not go into the teams resources.
This original statement's logic doesn't follow in an asymmetric game. Why is it unfair - because you say so ? I don't think one outlier case where the marines ability to recycle gave them a large advantage warrants gaving aliens recycle. Besides, its easily handled on a tactical level - the Alien commander can just keep one RT's worth of res in reserve in such a close run game. Problem solved.
I'd say a better solution would be for the hive to generate a small amount of res (1/4 of a RT maybe) instead then gave the aliens a recycle function. But again, its such an outlier case where everyone has lost every RT on the map and one side hasn't lost already its not worth trying to 'fix'.
Having the comm be able to recycle overenthusastic gorge's cysts/hydras due to the build limit is a different kettle of fish entirely and I can see the merit of that.
I'd say a better solution would be for the hive to generate a small amount of res (1/4 of a RT maybe) instead then gave the aliens a recycle function. But again, its such an outlier case where everyone has lost every RT on the map and one side hasn't lost already its not worth trying to 'fix'.
Having the comm be able to recycle overenthusastic gorge's cysts/hydras due to the build limit is a different kettle of fish entirely and I can see the merit of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the original statement is backed up by the evidence I give immediately afterward
we can come up with lots more situations where it's unfair to not have an equivalent mechanic for the aliens, if you want
after all, it's an asymmetric game but both sides are supposed to have access to the same concepts (just like in starcraft)
<b>can you reason out why the marines deserve the recycle ability if the aliens don't?</b>
you honestly think it's a better idea to tie the hive to res generation? have you thought about that at all? you can't make everything completely unrelated and wacky just because it's an asymmetric game.
The problem with this side is you have to resolve the conflict between the gorge player and the commander
You would get many 'bad' situations in exchange for being able to remove blockades and useless buildings. What makes a hydra *truly* useless? Which player is able to judge that?
I'd hate to spend my pres on stuff that we need, and have an idiot commander go "NO THAT SUCKS" and remove it. At the same time, I'd hate to find myself removing worthless hydras and see my gorge players sit idle arguing with me about it instead of playing.
It's probably easier to make hydras more useful, and do something about the clipping issues they can create.
I've never comm nor gorge only Fade, so anything I could say can be easily backed up with BS answers lmao
So if your team is losing you can vote to give up on the match and end it right away.
I don't think aliens need recycling, its good for the game that marines/aliens are different from each other, however it would be a good idea to give the alien commander a ability to remove his structures somehow in case he accidentally block a something like an rt/hive location.
There is however a minor issue where both teams can completely run out of res, in these rare cases that team has probably lost anyway since they allowed the enemy team to pick out their last rt. I don't think it needs any fix.
<!--quoteo(post=1904979:date=Feb 20 2012, 03:54 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 20 2012, 03:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the original statement is backed up by the evidence I give immediately afterward<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, you gave one outlier case where the marine specific ability to recycle actually became pretty important, ergo its unfair. Doesn't follow i'm afraid. I'm sure we can come up with various scenarios where a small, racial specific ability suddenly turns a game...it doesn't mean its unfair, it means one side took advantage of an ability and in your specific case the other side did not compensate for not having it. As I mentioned, in 20/20 hindsight the alien commander should have saved the res for a RT - he/she didn't, you lost, you now know better for next time.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->we can come up with lots more situations where it's unfair to not have an equivalent mechanic for the aliens, if you want
after all, it's an asymmetric game but both sides are supposed to have access to the same concepts (just like in starcraft)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Feel free, and I may agree with you on some of them for all I know, just not this one :P Re: same concepts, the concept is having resource structures which both sides share. One sides structures self-heal (I think still?), the others can be recycled - thats the asymmetric specifics.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>can you reason out why the marines deserve the recycle ability if the aliens don't?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines are much more vulnerable to random RTs being attacked and destroyed then aliens are, hence marines have recycle and aliens don't. Thats my take on it anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you honestly think it's a better idea to tie the hive to res generation? have you thought about that at all? you can't make everything completely unrelated and wacky just because it's an asymmetric game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was simply coming up, very quickly, with an alternative solution which wouldn't need to gave recycle to aliens that would solve your 'all our RTs are dead, we're dewmed!!' scenario. All I meant was if the alien side had no RTs the hive(s) could start gaving a small trickle of res to enable the alien team to come back into the game. As I said, I think thats a better solution but I <i>still</i> wouldn't bother as I think its a non-issue.
...ehhh... how? aliens have something like GL, and ARCs? the only advantage that supports your claim is not mobility, since thats countered by phasegates - its infestation being able to "report" marine positions.. so aliens know when we are about to take down a harvester. but this can merely be claimed an imbalance at this time.
the <b>concept</b>, as internetexplorer points out, is what matters first, and in this case its map control which is the theme of every game. map control being defined predominantly by occupying resource points and collecting res - <i>the <b>concept </b>is that marines are supposed to be just as able to attack alien harvesters as aliens are able to attack RTs. </i> the means in which this occurs can vary obviously like i said above with GL and ARCs vs bile bombs.. but i do not believe one is supposed to be "more vulnerable" in any respect, else this would favor map control in alien's favor every time.
if i am wrong here, i'd like to hear it from the devs, otherwise its just assumption. (which is what im doing, by the way, in regards to said concept)
my 2 cents
Thank you, Stu.
ugh I wish people would stop posting this
we know it's an asymmetric game, but that doesn't mean EVERYTHING in it is asymmetric
it's not an excuse for you to stomp on my thread being an anti-intellectual either
<b>I mean, look at this and tell me how it could ever be balanced by the fact that this is an asymmetric game:</b>
<ul><li>both teams need resource towers to make money</li><li>resource towers cost money to make</li><li>they cost the same amount for both teams </li><li> they produce resources at the same rate for both teams</li><li>they have the same health for both teams</li><li>one team can sell other things to pay for resource towers in dire circumstances</li><li>the other team cannot do that</li></ul>
In conclusion: NO.
<!--quoteo(post=1905013:date=Feb 20 2012, 12:33 AM:name=Ph0enix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ph0enix @ Feb 20 2012, 12:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, you gave one outlier case where the marine specific ability to recycle actually became pretty important, ergo its unfair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An outlier case that can never happen with the aliens being the team in control. Because the mechanic should fundamentally exist in both teams, but does not. You say 'outlier case' as if to belittle it - it's something that exists and should be accounted for, not swept under the rug along with all the other unfinished parts of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1905013:date=Feb 20 2012, 12:33 AM:name=Ph0enix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ph0enix @ Feb 20 2012, 12:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure we can come up with various scenarios where a small, racial specific ability suddenly turns a game...it doesn't mean its unfair, it means one side took advantage of an ability and in your specific case the other side did not compensate for not having it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, go ahead and do that. I'll be waiting. I'll explain how any mechanic you come up with has an equivalent for the other team, except things like recycle which are not correct yet.
<!--quoteo(post=1905013:date=Feb 20 2012, 12:33 AM:name=Ph0enix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ph0enix @ Feb 20 2012, 12:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I mentioned, in 20/20 hindsight the alien commander should have saved the res for a RT - he/she didn't, you lost, you now know better for next time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both teams were losing res towers before they could pay for themselves. It was a slippery slope for both teams. Eventually, one team won out because it had a mechanic that the other one didn't. This isn't even a thought experiment - it happened in a real game with a variety of new and experienced players on both sides.
In the 'thought experiment' version, both teams make the exact same choices, and deal the same amount of damage to one another, and eventually the marines get an edge because they have recycle and the aliens have <b>nothing equivalent</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=1905013:date=Feb 20 2012, 12:33 AM:name=Ph0enix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ph0enix @ Feb 20 2012, 12:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Feel free, and I may agree with you on some of them for all I know, just not this one :P Re: same concepts, the concept is having resource structures which both sides share. One sides structures self-heal (I think still?), the others can be recycled - thats the asymmetric specifics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still doesn't solve the fundamental problem. Giving aliens free res from their toughest structure seems like a really cheap solution. I'm sure we can do better.
<!--quoteo(post=1905013:date=Feb 20 2012, 12:33 AM:name=Ph0enix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ph0enix @ Feb 20 2012, 12:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines are much more vulnerable to random RTs being attacked and destroyed then aliens are, hence marines have recycle and aliens don't. Thats my take on it anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. Marines have ranged attacks, nano shield, repairs that come from a 5 res unit that can move faster than a skulk, and more. They have a weapon that does extra damage to buildings (the axe), whereas the aliens use their regular weapons that are balanced around their damage versus players (try it and see how fast you can axe down a res tower some time, then try to do the same with nonstop skulk bites). Without explaining all the aliens mechanics, I'll just say that both sides are very well equipped to attack/defend res nodes - that's not the issue here. The issue is what happens when both teams successfully kill a <i>lot</i> of res nodes in a good back-and-forth game.
"Your take on it" doesn't seem to be based on anything real.
<!--quoteo(post=1905013:date=Feb 20 2012, 12:33 AM:name=Ph0enix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ph0enix @ Feb 20 2012, 12:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was simply coming up, very quickly, with an alternative solution which wouldn't need to gave recycle to aliens that would solve your 'all our RTs are dead, we're dewmed!!' scenario. All I meant was if the alien side had no RTs the hive(s) could start gaving a small trickle of res to enable the alien team to come back into the game. As I said, I think thats a better solution but I <i>still</i> wouldn't bother as I think its a non-issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is alternative, but it's not a solution. Why? Like ironhorse mentioned, it's not about res - it's about map control. If you have to use your hive, your only remaining point of control on the map, to get res...then the game is over. There's nothing you can do to stop the marines setting up shop on your 2-3 entrances and slowly whittling you down. You'll never get enough res to 'push out' unless the marines get bored and stop trying.
The point of this is that when both sides pummel each other to the brink of destruction, the marines can simply flip a switch that says "we're better off than you" while the aliens stare at their useless shells/whips/crags/veils. Your solution says that, when the game reaches that state, a magic switch flips and the aliens get free stuff they didn't get before. They don't have to defend a new res node (like the marines do after they recycle and buy one) ...they just sit on their free hive res and wait for something to happen. It introduces a lot of new problems and doesn't really fix the one at hand.
/sarcasm off
I really do think Kharaa should have a way to gain trickles of income even without Harvesters. It would be similar to the inefficient "long distance mining" in RTS games. Perhaps linked Cysts, Drifters, or Gorges near Res Nodes could earn Team Res at a reduced rate.
In clan matches (of closely skilled teams) alien frequently lose harvesters too. It is incredibly quick/easy for organised marines to make a quick push forward to kill a harvester and then retreat. This is the type of play that will trickle into public play more as time passes. While the game has many asymmetrical aspects it is not solely asymmetrical. That said I am not 100% sure whether the current flow of the game is intended or not, so I will leave it upto UWE to decide. It is an interesting suggestion though.
I know right?!
<!--quoteo(post=1905074:date=Feb 20 2012, 07:06 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 20 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905074"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens Harvesters should be free! That would create asymmetry!
/sarcasm off
I really do think Kharaa should have a way to gain trickles of income even without Harvesters. It would be similar to the inefficient "long distance mining" in RTS games. Perhaps linked Cysts, Drifters, or Gorges near Res Nodes could earn Team Res at a reduced rate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[quote name='Argathor' date='Feb 20 2012, 11:37 PM' post='1905126']
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Or Gorgs can 'Turbo' existing harvesters. Then, if all the harvesters are destroyed their is noone else to blame :-)
If however its having a larger impact on general balance, as Argathor is possibly suggesting, then again thats an entirely different kettle of fish.
If however its having a larger impact on general balance, as Argathor is possibly suggesting, then again thats an entirely different kettle of fish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it is not just because of the case that aliens could be without a rt and dont have 10 res to drop a rt. In a lot of games there are to many hydras in a place that even the hive or a rt cant be dropped. Or a building has been placed wrong and players or drifters are getting stuck.
Also its kinda unfair that if aliens lose their hive their also losing the res spent in the structures which are placed there as well. If Marines lose a tech point or a forward base the commander can recycle the buildings and get the resources back for the buildings the aliens count destroy in time. The aliens just loose everything.
Also like i said in a other post with this topic, the marines can nano shield and recycle any building. If a marine arrives in time to kill the alien that is attacking the building the recycle progress can be stopped. If the no marine arrives the building is recycled and the team gets res back. The aliens cant even recycle for the res.
And that the commander is able to destroy buildings without refund is harsh, the aliens need res even more then the marines in my eye, since the marines can pickup weapons of dead marines or if they're fast enough their own. Aliens need to purchase their upgrades each time they are respawned and need to evolve new into a higher lifeform which is always more expensive then any current marine weapon, except the gorge which isnt supposed to fight.
And in my text i named a lot of cases why they need it. NS is evolving, NS2 isn't NS1. NS1 didn't have a alien commander. NS1 didn't have drifters. NS1 didn't have cysts. NS1 didn't have one resource pool which was required for building structures which was indepent from the resource pool the players had. And i just thought about 1 minute about the differences.
But you forget that everybody could build a rt in ns1 as gorge.
In ns2 you just have one resource for the team, the teamresource.
I also think, aliens could recycle their buildings.
<!--quoteo(post=1905139:date=Feb 20 2012, 03:45 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Feb 20 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905139"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 didn't have one resource pool which was required for building structures which was indepent from the resource pool the players had.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehm what?
In ns1 the marine commander has team res and don't use his own "player" res to build structures same as in ns2.
<!--quoteo(post=1905010:date=Feb 20 2012, 05:29 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Feb 20 2012, 05:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, the whole POINT of the game is that it is trying to be asymmetrical, stop trying to homogenize the races or else you may as well have two marine teams, jesus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...whats the counterpart for aliens if marines can make money with half dead structures but aliens not?
I think its bad that marines can save their game just by selling structures but aliens are doomed if they have no Harvester and no res left.
But i think you are a bit right, so if UWE allow gorge build a harvester, it should be diffrent to marine team and balance the game.
Because a harvester + gorge cost 25 ressources + a cyst.
Infact, when we were still playing matches frequently. One of our tactics on summit was to rush 2 marines from MS (now Sub Access) through the door outside Ventilation, through Cross Roads, to kill the Harvester in Reactor (while aliens were waiting for melee 1 before rushing Vent/Comp Lab). This usually caught them off guard and forced them on the defensive for a while. It is easily possible for marines to be aggressive too in organised matches.
With "NS1 didn't have one resource pool which was required for building structures which was indepent from the resource pool the players had." i was talking about the aliens, which didnt have team resources, the resources they gained from the resource towers were split among all aliens. There was no commander for the aliens.
<u>People screw up. </u>
Place an extra shell? Recycle it.
Block a door? Recycle it.
Player evolves between a wall and a crag? Recycle it.
<u>Game can screw up.</u>
Can't place an RT? Recycle some stuff.
*Edit:
Balance is <i>how much res you get back</i>.
Former case, sure, whatever. In the latter case there needs to be a compelling arguement for it and there isn't one yet. I hate to suddenly be an Argathor fanboi but I think the following comment...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the most important thing here is whether or not UWE intend alien gameplay early on to be significantly more aggressive than marines. If so, then the current asymmetry between marine recycling is a good balance (or counter, etc) to that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...sums up my feelings on the matter. My default stance is NS2 is intended to feel the same as NS1 hence no recycling for aliens as above. If when balance gets hammered down a lot more and NS2 is feature complete in 3 months or whatever and aliens/marines don't play like that then I could well be in favour of gaving recycle to aliens if its proving detrimental to balance for them not to have it.
Former case, sure, whatever. In the latter case there needs to be a compelling arguement for it and there isn't one yet. I hate to suddenly be an Argathor fanboi but I think the following comment...
...sums up my feelings on the matter. My default stance is NS2 is intended to feel the same as NS1 hence no recycling for aliens as above. If when balance gets hammered down a lot more and NS2 is feature complete in 3 months or whatever and aliens/marines don't play like that then I could well be in favour of gaving recycle to aliens if its proving detrimental to balance for them not to have it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What makes the building limit a quality of life issue? Not being able to drop a RT/Hive is hard blocker for aliens. Even a override which allows the commander to place those two structures even if the building limit is reached wouldnt help much. Since a hive without a crag to umbra/heal it isnt worth much. Also the building limit has been implemented for a reason, a override wouldn't be good.
And i dont accept your NS2 should feel the same way then NS1 argument. Since NS1 had no alien commander, no teamres etc. The argument isnt just valid anymore that recycling is a marine only feature, the aliens also need it for the same reasons the marines got it.
Also with the current alien buidling health it woudn't be possible to sell buildings in a fight anyway. If the numbers in the wiki are uptodate a shell has 450HP 150Armor, a Mature Crag 600HP 300Armor. Marine Buildings have a lot more, armory 1800HP 300Armor , observatory 1500HP, Arms Lab 2250HP 225Armor, IP 2250HP 125Armor. Also alien buildings can be killed a lot easier from the distance since the aliens "only" have bilebomb and spikes as a ranged attacks, except for the flame thrower any weapon is ranged.
The recylcing would nearly only been used for rearangement, selling if there are to many structures, remove blockings etc.