I dont know about you guys, but ive been playing quite a bit lately and mostly as marine as i want to improve my aim.
Playing on Australian servers, I have found that marines tend to ever only win when the other alien team is completely outskilled by the marine team and hence have little to no map control, leaving the marines with majority of the nodes with little contest.
In the case of an even match, marines will more often than not be on the losing end of a stalemate as they struggle to hold more than 2 res nodes in the mid game. The longer the match progresses the more it becomes apparent that marines lose and it just becomes a last stand (which can at times be quite fun, but that is not the point of the game nor this post)
It has also been mentioned (whether it was this thread or another, i cant remember) that a few skulks can finish off a cc before marines can even walk back to defend it, finishing the game for the aliens and leaving an extremely anti climatic game. This has occurred rather often during my plays, where marines have made a push towards the hive while capping along the way, only to hear that the cc is under attack and then lose because beacon failed (or not enough res at the time) and commander was outnumbered.
I do play aliens at times, and more often than not my points above stay true, albeit in the perspective of an alien
This is just my opinion of course, and maybe this only has happened when I have played, but nonetheless the marine loss trend is something that I definitely notice on Australian servers when I play.
This probably needs to be another post but I for one feel that the resource system for marines needs to be reworked (perhaps aliens too?) and another look at the power node system (takes so goddamn long to be repaired as opposed to being plugged for the first time!!!!!).
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1903217:date=Feb 15 2012, 02:30 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 15 2012, 02:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903217"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->true, but only in one of those scenarios can a team take out the other team's ability to spawn in three different ways. this is an inequality.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 don't need no stinking equality - NS2 is based on asymmetry.
Also a reason why the CC dies so fast is because it is sooooo big. A skulk has enough cover from a CC to survive even if 10 marines are in front of it for quiet some secs.
Was never a fan of the new CC model. Too big, too square and it takes ages to login. If the CC would be as big as in NS1 marines would have less problems to defend it.
I agree with Laosh'Ra. Atleast when the welder is in and it is mid to late game, the marines don't really need a com. IMO the losing rules should be the same as in NS1.
The Aliens lose if all hives are destroyed, then they get damaged all 3s till they die.
The marines lose if all ips and marines are dead.
With this rules we could prevent that the marines lose while they are killing the last hive. The game really should end when <b>all</b> enemyplayers are dead and can't spawn.
Its true that the welder will fix few issues with the cc but it will not fix the problem its way to easy to bring it down.
Even in a situation where the commander uses becon to bring marines with 3-3 upgrades as soon as alien rush start in a 6v6 game, aliens still have a high chance of victory. Its so easy for the aliens to move around the cc and hide behind/above it since its so big. Also it dies to fast.
The reason this was not a issue in ns1 is because it was easier to defend the cc and you could simply drop another one in base if aliens were biting it down, so it was useless to rush it.
The Marines are always born to lose! Since NS1! Being, stopping to reload his weapons in the arsenal, slow walking speed, Poor protection. It all makes the Marines fragile!
<!--quoteo(post=1903262:date=Feb 15 2012, 11:40 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Feb 15 2012, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because the teams are different. Don't assume that because marines have more ways to lose that something is wrong. You're trying to answer a question that's not worth asking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is asymmetry for the sake of asymmetry, even if it's detrimental to the gameplay (which it is). The OP has given examples in subsequent posts about his experiences that prove that "something is wrong". The fact is, aliens have too many good options - too many easy options. The power node, for instance, is the worst. At the very least, it shouldn't disable spawning (i.e. IPs). Personally, I think the entire power node idea should be revisited.
CCs and IPs are kind of bundled together, so I'm not hugely concerned about those - though taking out the IP is still too easy of an option to taking out a CC (or put another way, taking out the IP is still too easy of an option for aliens compared to taking out a hive is for marines).
In terms of how eggs relate to power nodes or IPs, you shouldn't say that it means that it's "balanced" that a marine can take out all the eggs and thus prevent spawning - the issue is with the eggs here. Eggs should respawn faster the less eggs there are (per hive), e.g. Time to next egg = 1 + current number of eggs I think you guys need to consider what's fun first. Forcibly sitting in spawn queue unable to do anything until the game ends without you isn't fun. Work on the balance using fun as the base.
Also, a lot of "cheap wins" would be limited if there were structure damage scaling with team size. i.e. Damage to structure = standard damage * standard number of players per team / current number of players on the team
It feels like, currently, the game is full of band-aid fixes for stalemates. But I think that in terms of top-level design, you could shift the focus away from anti-player upgrades to anti-structure upgrades. So the game is far more balanced on a player vs player level regardless of map control, but on a team vs team level the game is skewed towards the team with better map control (it is easier for them to kill the structures that end the game).
Why again is it a lose condition for marines, when the CC is destroyed?
Btw. as I see that the aliens are winning more games right now, you have to keep in mind, that you have to find a solution that don't lead to stalemates. A gorge with Bilebomb (= 3 Hives !!!) should simply have the possibility to end the game. When the aliens got 3 hives its "good bye" for the marines. And when the marines can manage to defend 3 Hive-Positions, they are able to build 3 more CCs and IPs. Map control isn't only a word. You have to use it wisely. Simply build Sentries, more CCs and IPs in other locations. This will prevent the surprise-losing.
But as I said there is an imbalance right now favoring the aliens. Just not sure if you have found the right problem.
I just dont get it why the marines arent investing in 2nd CC and IPs when they have Res for it. Marines have to defend their base if they have only one. If they have 2 bases it shoulndt be such a great a problem. What's the cost fo a CC? 20Res? Ips are 10Res? so setting up a 2nd CC + 2 IPs cost as much as Armor/Weapon Upgrade Level 2? That's pretty cheap in my eyes.
Also like many others said already the both sides arent be meant to be symetric.
<!--quoteo(post=1903477:date=Feb 15 2012, 01:35 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Feb 15 2012, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why again is it a lose condition for marines, when the CC is destroyed?
Btw. as I see that the aliens are winning more games right now, you have to keep in mind, that you have to find a solution that don't lead to stalemates. A gorge with Bilebomb (= 3 Hives !!!) should simply have the possibility to end the game. When the aliens got 3 hives its "good bye" for the marines. And when the marines can manage to defend 3 Hive-Positions, they are able to build 3 more CCs and IPs. Map control isn't only a word. You have to use it wisely. Simply build Sentries, more CCs and IPs in other locations. This will prevent the surprise-losing.
But as I said there is an imbalance right now favoring the aliens. Just not sure if you have found the right problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think bilebomb needs to stay at 2nd hive, it gives the gorge a good role and helps aliens to play offencive vs siege positions. If bilebomb needs to be stronger for the end game then it could get a 3rd hive upgrade making it more powerful.
The idea for marines to build more CC, ip's and turrets is impractical without changing the game away from the ns1 mechanics or giving the marines really good reason to hold the tech points. There is no reason for marines to spend res on anything but phase gates for map control atm. If marines do afford more CC and turrets its simply better to get upgrades for your marines and weapons to overpower the alien team. If you focus on getting turrets and more CC it will be easy for the alien team to get more hives and adv lifeforms. Also it will be easy for them to deal with marines since they will lack upgrades and weapons they need to fight them.
Even though there marines do manage to get 2-3 CC ups and defend them while at the same time pressuring the alien team they would still lose if the power node in marine start was taken down. All their main structures are in marine start, meaning they will lose all their upgrades(arms lab) and the adv weapons(armory). It will take time ,manpower and res to rebuild a new base and meanwhile aliens will have taken the map.
Asymmetry is a poor excuse for imbalance. The fact is, aliens have multiple "win conditions" while marines only have one "win condition". If all "win conditions" were equal (e.g. power nodes, IPs and CCs all have the same <b>relative</b> health as the hive - relative based on damage differences between aliens and marines), this would not matter <b>as</b> much; but it would <b>still</b> matter because, looking at it from the other perspective: marines have three "win conditions" to <b>defend against</b>, while aliens only have one "win condition" to <b>defend against</b>. So, mathematically speaking, if marines and aliens do the same damage, then in order to be balanced: power node health = IP health = CC health = 3*hive health; because the three win conditions are dispersed amongst the three, while the one win condition is focused on the one, so it must be three times as hard for each of the three compared to just the one, so that the average win difficulty for each team is the same. An oversimplification, yes, but I'm sure you could see why this would be a problem.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1903360:date=Feb 15 2012, 02:47 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 15 2012, 02:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bejeez? 80%? I was expecting the global marine win rate to decrease due to sentry's not being automatic wins as much anymore and an influx of newer players but wow thats really high... Is there a time frame associated with 80% win rate?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's 68% rather than 80%, actually. <a href="http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/displayendgamestats?version=195&output=chart" target="_blank">http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/disp...mp;output=chart</a>.
Still, that means aliens win 2 out of every 3 games. Its still far from being balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1903479:date=Feb 15 2012, 01:52 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Feb 15 2012, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... The idea for marines to build more CC, ip's and turrets is impractical without changing the game away from the ns1 mechanics or giving the marines really good reason to hold the tech points. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought more CC's meant more nano-balls. The nano-balls are pretty awesome (and frustrating as an alien).
<!--quoteo(post=1903479:date=Feb 15 2012, 12:52 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Feb 15 2012, 12:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think bilebomb needs to stay at 2nd hive, it gives the gorge a good role and helps aliens to play offencive vs siege positions. If bilebomb needs to be stronger for the end game then it could get a 3rd hive upgrade making it more powerful.
The idea for marines to build more CC, ip's and turrets is impractical without changing the game away from the ns1 mechanics or giving the marines really good reason to hold the tech points. There is no reason for marines to spend res on anything but phase gates for map control atm. If marines do afford more CC and turrets its simply better to get upgrades for your marines and weapons to overpower the alien team. If you focus on getting turrets and more CC it will be easy for the alien team to get more hives and adv lifeforms. Also it will be easy for them to deal with marines since they will lack upgrades and weapons they need to fight them.
Even though there marines do manage to get 2-3 CC ups and defend them while at the same time pressuring the alien team they would still lose if the power node in marine start was taken down. All their main structures are in marine start, meaning they will lose all their upgrades(arms lab) and the adv weapons(armory). It will take time ,manpower and res to rebuild a new base and meanwhile aliens will have taken the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grissi it's not like its the same for the aliens, when you lose your tech chambers you have to rebuild them also, new crags, shade and whips as well. Its currently not as expensive as for the marines but with the shifts comming its going to be close. And since you lose abilities and the ability to transform in higher lifeforms i would compare it with loosing your arms lab etc.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1903389:date=Feb 15 2012, 04:30 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Feb 15 2012, 04:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903389"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 don't need no stinking equality - NS2 is based on asymmetry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> come on you know thats what i meant. i used that word like 20 times already in this thread. and i already explained how its NOT asymmetrical.
<!--quoteo(post=1903477:date=Feb 15 2012, 10:35 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Feb 15 2012, 10:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A gorge with Bilebomb (= 3 Hives !!!) should simply have the possibility to end the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i disagree. i believe teamwork should end the game,<i> its been the requirement this entire time</i>, for marines and even for an Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=1903478:date=Feb 15 2012, 10:41 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Feb 15 2012, 10:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903478"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just dont get it why the marines arent investing in 2nd CC and IPs when they have Res for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree this is an issue, and like mentioned above its because emphasis has been slightly removed from tech points for marines. making a CC a power source for IPs can help change this imo. currently its just too much of a risk as a commander to throw down 30 res in a sentry-less, PG-less room with a powernode that can easily be destroyed, negating all your work like an off switch. <!--quoteo(post=1903479:date=Feb 15 2012, 10:52 AM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Feb 15 2012, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea for marines to build more CC, ip's and turrets is impractical without changing the game away from the ns1 mechanics or giving the marines really good reason to hold the tech points. There is no reason for marines to spend res on anything but phase gates for map control atm. If marines do afford more CC and turrets its simply better to get upgrades for your marines and weapons to overpower the alien team. Even though there marines do manage to get 2-3 CC ups and defend them while at the same time pressuring the alien team they would still lose if the power node in marine start was taken down. All their main structures are in marine start, meaning they will lose all their upgrades(arms lab) and the adv weapons(armory). It will take time ,manpower and res to rebuild a new base and meanwhile aliens will have taken the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this man speaketh the truth, and he may be onto the real issue (since some are claiming i am searching in the wrong place for whatever is "wrong") at hand. tech points having more importance for marines could only be a good thing - alleviating some rushes, alleviating stalemates, alleviating turtling, and contributing to the map control tug of war while adding to the intuitiveness for new players as they will understand<b> marines aren't just defending from a map take over ; they are part of that take over.</b> <!--quoteo(post=1903483:date=Feb 15 2012, 11:15 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 15 2012, 11:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Asymmetry is a poor excuse for imbalance. The fact is, aliens have multiple "win conditions" while marines only have one "win condition". If all "win conditions" were equal (e.g. power nodes, IPs and CCs all have the same <b>relative</b> health as the hive - relative based on damage differences between aliens and marines), this would not matter <b>as</b> much; but it would <b>still</b> matter because, looking at it from the other perspective: marines have three "win conditions" to <b>defend against</b>, while aliens only have one "win condition" to <b>defend against</b>. So, mathematically speaking, if marines and aliens do the same damage, then in order to be balanced: power node health = IP health = CC health = 3*hive health; because the three win conditions are dispersed amongst the three, while the one win condition is focused on the one, so it must be three times as hard for each of the three compared to just the one, so that the average win difficulty for each team is the same. An oversimplification, yes, but I'm sure you could see why this would be a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> thanks Harimau. ;) you are far more articulate than i am
<!--quoteo(post=1903507:date=Feb 15 2012, 01:10 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Feb 15 2012, 01:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Grissi it's not like its the same for the aliens, when you lose your tech chambers you have to rebuild them also,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yea but what he's pointing out is, its more beneficial and less risky for a hive to be put up than it is for a CC to be put up. a 2nd CC all by itself does NOTHING for marines currently.. no extra tech, no upgrades, no new structures, no new spawn location (you still have to build another structure for that) .. the only similarity between the two is that they are both easy to take down as others and myself have said. but thats another issue altogether i believe.
@soulrider: i believe you are confused or misunderstanding what is being said. in short: there is a problem. harimau's post might clear it up for you.
i love the idea of gorge bile bomb being upgraded.. as long as its still, overall, less effective! (does it really take ONE bilebomb to take down a mac or was that a glitch i saw?)
<!--quoteo(post=1903479:date=Feb 15 2012, 07:52 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Feb 15 2012, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think bilebomb needs to stay at 2nd hive, it gives the gorge a good role and helps aliens to play offencive vs siege positions. If bilebomb needs to be stronger for the end game then it could get a 3rd hive upgrade making it more powerful.
The idea for marines to build more CC, ip's and turrets is impractical without changing the game away from the ns1 mechanics or giving the marines really good reason to hold the tech points. There is no reason for marines to spend res on anything but phase gates for map control atm. If marines do afford more CC and turrets its simply better to get upgrades for your marines and weapons to overpower the alien team. If you focus on getting turrets and more CC it will be easy for the alien team to get more hives and adv lifeforms. Also it will be easy for them to deal with marines since they will lack upgrades and weapons they need to fight them.
Even though there marines do manage to get 2-3 CC ups and defend them while at the same time pressuring the alien team they would still lose if the power node in marine start was taken down. All their main structures are in marine start, meaning they will lose all their upgrades(arms lab) and the adv weapons(armory). It will take time ,manpower and res to rebuild a new base and meanwhile aliens will have taken the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh ok, I thought bilebomb would be on hive 3 like in NS1. Discovered just today that you can use it with 2 hives. And ok, than I think, the CC should be like a second powernode and no lose condition.
Maybe have it so that after you kill a powernode, the structures slowly lose power, after like 30 seconds or so. That way marines have a chance to get things back online.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
I think powernodes should be a way of disabling extractors and tech buildings. IPs and Phase Gates would keep working, in both cases the structure is too vulnerable in terms of powernodes.
<!--quoteo(post=1903483:date=Feb 15 2012, 07:15 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 15 2012, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Asymmetry is a poor excuse for imbalance. The fact is, aliens have multiple "win conditions" while marines only have one "win condition". If all "win conditions" were equal (e.g. power nodes, IPs and CCs all have the same <b>relative</b> health as the hive - relative based on damage differences between aliens and marines), this would not matter <b>as</b> much; but it would <b>still</b> matter because, looking at it from the other perspective: marines have three "win conditions" to <b>defend against</b>, while aliens only have one "win condition" to <b>defend against</b>. So, mathematically speaking, if marines and aliens do the same damage, then in order to be balanced: power node health = IP health = CC health = 3*hive health; because the three win conditions are dispersed amongst the three, while the one win condition is focused on the one, so it must be three times as hard for each of the three compared to just the one, so that the average win difficulty for each team is the same. An oversimplification, yes, but I'm sure you could see why this would be a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good analysis. It may be simpler if the game ending conditions are seen as a three-link chain for marines - the weakest breaks and the game ends. For aliens it would be a one-link chain (i know...). Do you think that power node, ip, cc need to be three times hive health? It would seem enough if each marine target/link was an equivalent of just one hive in terms of health. I know you say that in the beginning of your post, but then the formula is 3*hive health.
While this one was my favourite solution, the others have their own charm. I very much like the 30 seconds power down time after taking out the node or ip/ph being independent of power.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1903560:date=Feb 15 2012, 03:43 PM:name=PersianImm0rtal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PersianImm0rtal @ Feb 15 2012, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe have it so that after you kill a powernode, the structures slowly lose power, after like 30 seconds or so. That way marines have a chance to get things back online.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i really like this...even if its just the power nodes in a base. it still serves its purpose, prevents cheese wins, gives a fighting chance to save your spawn abilities, and a fighting chance to save room X just because a singular player ninja'd your power node and is akin to infestation almost in that delay. how many seconds does it take for an unconnected cyst to die?
@swalk: thats exactly what i recommend. @Onosfactory: thank you for your helpful contribution to the topic ;)
I still havn't seen a good reason why powernodes shouldn't power off IP's and buildings instantly. *edit* in fact, i have yet to see a proper reason showing why having powernode/IP/CC is unbalanced at all.
Is everyone forgetting that the powernode powering the IP's, and the CC are <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>all in the same room in easy LOS of each other</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->? With the exclusion of bilebomb for obvious reasons, it takes roughly the same ammount of time to kill (multiple) IP's as it does to kill a powernode, both resulting in the same situation where marines are unable to spawn. So what makes one inherently 'worse' than the other? Why are powernodes not grouped together with IP's and CC's? They are just as easily defendable if not more so due to their placement against walls which results in ease of mining right?
a) Powernodes are generally attackable from outside the room. Excluding broken bilebomb, this means aliens have a way to counter sentry spam farms directly without running through all the sentry's and attacking IP's/CC where all the marines are generally clumped up as well. This is a good thing. At most there are only 2 sentries guarding a powernode as opposed to the 100 guarding the IP and CC. b) marines are clueless and lack situational awareness such that they only take note of whether the IP/CC is under attack as that is in their direct LOS as soon as they spawn (or they don't look at minimap).
If you want to talk about win conditions specifically then understand that they are actually one for one. Marine win condition 1-Kill all hives Alien win condition 1-Kill all the CCs
Killing any marine placed structure will always be detrimental to the marine team, some more so such as killing a powernode or IP's. For example, sniping the AA can be equally as game ending as killing a powernode. What people are not considering when they assert imbalance in regards to powernodes is the situation surrounding when the powernode generally is taken out. If one skulk was to somehow ninja and kill the powernode in your base because everyone is not checking their minimaps, then it is not game over. The skulk is easily killed and the powernode is easily repaired. What people are seeing however in their play is powernodes being taken out as one of the last alien moves that finishes a game that is already an alien victory.
you are ignoring some major factors, man. for one, win conditions are dependent on permanently stopping the spawning of the enemy team. shooting eggs does not do this, but destroying base power node does stop automatic spawning, destroying an ip does, and destroying the comm chair permanently stops spawning. and you are also wrong in that a CC does not require power, to either build nor operate.
<i>"Excluding broken bilebomb, this means aliens have a way to counter<strike> sentry spam farms</strike> <b>enemy spawning </b>directly without running through all the sentry's and attacking IP's/CC where all the marines are generally clumped up as well. "</i> this answers your "So what makes one inherently 'worse' than the other?" <i> " in fact, i have yet to see a proper reason showing why having powernode/IP/CC is unbalanced at all."</i> its<b> im</b>balanced in comparison to aliens' method of spawning for the reasons harimau puts simply a few posts up. also read the underlined parts of my OP for further clarification.
<i>"marines are clueless and lack situational awareness"</i> once again, read my OP, situational awareness doesn't count for much with two bile bombing gorges. marines lose ability to respawn before they can even beacon back in - even if their awareness began from the first bile bomb - a perfect scenario that doesn't exist usually. and personally, i have not seen this scenario where marines are beaconed back into an attacked base and they are "confused" or lacking any situational awareness.. usually the chomping sounds takes them less than a seconds to find something to shoot. but hey thats my experience.
<i>"What people are seeing however in their play is powernodes being taken out as one of the last alien moves that finishes a game that is already an alien victory."</i> No? I've seen plenty of games where this is not true. Even if that were so, they are still picking one of three ways to stop marines from spawning automatically. can you name more than one way to do this to aliens? <i>and remember winning conditions above:</i> causing the enemy team to cease spawning permanently, which is the next thing that happens after ceasing automatic spawning.
let me finish by asking: <b>Why are you against balancing the differences between teams in the amount of ways to cease the enemy team from spawning?</b> what argument could there be? i know its not because marines statistically win more.. because they don't. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1903596:date=Feb 16 2012, 08:51 AM:name=reh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reh @ Feb 16 2012, 08:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good analysis. It may be simpler if the game ending conditions are seen as a three-link chain for marines - the weakest breaks and the game ends. For aliens it would be a one-link chain (i know...). Do you think that power node, ip, cc need to be three times hive health? It would seem enough if each marine target/link was an equivalent of just one hive in terms of health. I know you say that in the beginning of your post, but then the formula is 3*hive health.
While this one was my favourite solution, the others have their own charm. I very much like the 30 seconds power down time after taking out the node or ip/ph being independent of power.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was just a simplification. The reasoning was something like this, kind of considering it like resistance in parallel circuits: <i>1/hive health = 1/power node health + 1/IP health + 1/CC health</i> but (for equal win conditions, i.e. the strength of each link in the chain is the same - a good analogy btw!) <i>power node health = IP health = CC health = "health"</i> so <i>1/hive health = 3/"health"</i> so <i>"health" = 3*hive health</i>
The thing is, also, that you can have multiple IPs, so it is only the last IP that is the true win condition, so having multiple IPs would make winning through the IP route just that much harder. So to balance this mathematically, you'd want to divide IP health by the number of IPs there were.
If resistance doesn't work for you, you could consider the above the following way: Marines have to divide their defense amongst three conditions, while aliens can focus their defense on one condition, so the defense going to each condition for the marines is one third of the defense going to the condition for the aliens: so each marine condition should be thrice as hard. But when you look at it this way, it becomes obvious that marines can, in reality, shift all their defense to the one win condition as necessary, so a more balanced approach from this perspective would be: <i>power node health = IP health = CC health = hive health</i> but we are, again, ignoring the fact that marines have multiple win conditions to defend against. So perhaps you'd want to take the average, then: <i>power node health = IP health = CC health = 2*hive health</i> or you'd give the dispersal effect a weighting, e.g. 10% <i>power node health = IP health = CC health = (0.1)*3*hive health + (1-0.1)*hive health = 1.2*hive health</i>
Note that none of the above approach is really a suggestion (way too many dependencies really), I'm just, hopefully, pointing out the problem by considering a "balanced" approach. The current approach is not balanced because: 1) the alien win conditions are not equal, so marine defense is "only as strong as the weakest link in the chain" (usually the IP or the power node) 2) the alien win conditions are dispersed amongst multiple win conditions, so the marine defense is dispersed amongst multiple conditions * this is all relative in scale: as elodea helpfully points out, these three are usually in LOS of each other, so the dispersal <b>is</b> somewhat limited, but it <b>is</b> definitely still there (alien teams could attack both the IP, the CC and the power nodes at the same time)
So my suggestion, really, is that you implement one win condition for each side (only one thing to defend), and these should be equal in resistance/difficulty. Throw out any detrimental asymmetry. Asymmetry + Balance together is an extremely difficult thing to achieve, because there are far too many dependencies and few fail-safes.
So here are some serious suggestions:
Something that would make more sense to me from a design perspective (if not quite from a player/thematic perspective) is if CCs and the last-attached IP shared the same health, so you unify the win condition, and the relative health of the CC+IP combo is equal to the relative health of the Hive. In terms of actually implementing it in game, you would just <b>divert any damage done to the last IP to the CC it is attached to</b>: in a way, the last IP would be invulnerable. Justifying it thematically... <b>nanites</b>. Showing it to the player... <b>draw some visual effect between the last IP and the CC</b>.
Naturally, as I said before, <b>taking out the power node should, at the very least, not disable the IPs</b>. So basically we are removing power nodes as a win condition. In fact, from a thematic perspective, the CC doesn't require power, and the IPs are attached to the CC, so why would the IPs need power?
It is not as if suddenly both sides play exactly the same, even in their approach to victory. The asymmetry is still there, but any detrimental asymmetry has been removed.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1903671:date=Feb 15 2012, 09:49 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 15 2012, 09:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CCs and the last-attached IP shared the same health, so you unify the win condition, and the relative health of the hive+IP is equal to the relative health of the Hive. In terms of actually implementing it in game, you would just divert any damage done to the last IP to the CC it is attached to: in a way, the last IP would be invulnerable. Justifying it thematically... <b>nanites</b>. Showing it to the player... draw some visual effect between the last IP and the CC. Naturally, as I said before, taking out the power node should, at the very least, not disable the IPs. So basically we are removing power nodes as a win condition. In fact, from a thematic perspective, the CC doesn't require power, and the IPs are attached to the CC, so why would the IPs need power?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Genius. if that paragraph was implemented tomorrow so many issues would disappear.
I'm sorry i didnt want to wall of text originally but it seems i need to explain myself much more clearly and simply.
1) <!--quoteo(post=1903668:date=Feb 16 2012, 04:38 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 16 2012, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you are ignoring some major factors, man. for one, win conditions are dependent on permanently stopping the spawning of the enemy team. [...] and you are also wrong in that a CC does not require power, to either build nor operate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, the win conditions in NS2 are very clear. Kill the last hive, or kill the last CC or the last marine to prevent him from using the last CC. There is win condition parity, the rest is balance. When you and harimau started talking about win conditions in a very specific fashion, i had to point this out. The round does not end when you kill all the IP's or all the powernodes. These can be rebuilt whereas the last CC cannot as the round has obviously ended. Also you are misreading me, i never said that a CC requires power (not that this issue is even materially relevant to the discussion?).
2) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Excluding broken bilebomb, this means aliens have a way to counter<strike> sentry spam farms</strike> <b>enemy spawning </b>directly without running through all the sentry's and attacking IP's/CC where all the marines are generally clumped up as well. "[/i] this answers your "So what makes one inherently 'worse' than the other?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ? You are misreading me again. And before i say anything else, i think i should make it clear to you that i am excluding bilebomb because its effectiveness is not in any way related to how many weakpoints/kings marines may have due to its splash. Let me outline the arguement for you.
-<!--QuoteBegin-Harimau+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact is, aliens have too many good options - too many easy options. The power node, for instance, <b>is the worst</b>. At the very least, it shouldn't disable spawning (i.e. IPs).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I respond by asking the general question, what makes powernodes inherently worse than IP's? In a world without turrets and mines on the topic of "stopping the enemy from spawning", I outline that there actually is parity between the two in that it takes roughly the same ammount of time/effort to kill a powernode, 2000 health + 1000 armour = 4000hp, as it does 2 IPs, 2*(2250 health + 125 armour) = 5000hp. Take into account that attacking IP's is spawn camping and prevents marine spawning to a certain degree and you will see that the decision between attacking the IP's and the powernode is roughly the same where neither is very much 'worse' than the other.
So then, if not 'stopping the enemy from spawning', what does make attacking powernodes worse than the other? I then bring up the situation of sentry spam and mines where powernodes are obviously a much better option to attack and how this is a GOOD THING. I already sought to answer my own question and outlined one situation where it was infact a good thing that powernodes were weaker.
3) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its<b> im</b>balanced in comparison to aliens' method of spawning for the reasons harimau puts simply a few posts up. also read the underlined parts of my OP for further clarification.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not only do i think it condescending and childish to correct spelling as a point of discussion, but <b>un</b>balanced is also a correct use. I actually have read the points and examples you and harimau have posted and thought they were all not very good. For fear of posting a wall of text i didnt want to respond specifically and in detail to each one of them but if you so wish i will.
-<i> until last night when i saw aliens rush sub access late game and bile bomb/skulk the power node. Our huge lead as marines was for nothing as they shut us down right there, so easily, and without even entering our base. </i> Great example, but this is because of OP bilebomb, vents in sub access and lack of weldability on the door to xroads. Lets say the game had no powernodes. The gorge and skulk would have just killed your IP's twice as quick (each IP has roughly half the health of a powernode) as well as your armoury, your obs, the phasegate, the mines and basically every single structure in your base. It means nothing that they attacked the powernode first.
-<i> Another game a skulk rush took out our IPs and then just took their time picking off our team, And finally i saw two gorges bile bomb the comm chair to death before we could even beacon back.... all I was left with was: why do marines have so many ways to instantly lose a game/stop spawning in comparison to aliens? </i> Same thing. They attacked your IP's? Ok lets imagine the game didnt have powernodes or IPs and that marines spawned from thin air. The aliens would have just attacked the CC and you would still have lost. They attacked your CC? Ok lets imagine the game didnt ahve CC's or powernodes. Oh, the aliens would just attack the IP's and you would have still lost. Starting to see what i mean?
-<i> I know what you're thinking: aliens have eggs, shoot those! .. yea but shooting a single egg does not stop all spawning like killing a single IP does. </i> This is totally different to the marine mechanic in that it actually genuinely provides two distinct ways in which aliens can lose - one soft, one hard. And actually yes, killing the eggs such that there are no more eggs DOES stop aliens from spawning just like killing a single IP if marines have only 1 IP. All it takes is one pres (ammo pack) to kill like two eggs such that if you ever get into the right position you can literally lock aliens down from spawning for a very low cost. High reward, high initial risk/effort. Totally different system. You cannot compare this to the marine system and say oh, the marines are imbalanced because their different to aliens. You didnt buy the arguement that marines could lock down alien spawning because of random egg spawn, well it does and it works the better your marines are. Consider a higher skill level when you talk about balance imo.
-<!--QuoteBegin-Harimau+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That is asymmetry for the sake of asymmetry, even if it's detrimental to the gameplay (which it is). The OP has given examples in subsequent posts about his experiences that prove that "something is wrong".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sometimes i feel like im playing a different game.
4) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->once again, read my OP, situational awareness doesn't count for much with two bile bombing gorges. marines lose ability to respawn before they can even beacon back in - even if their awareness began from the first bile bomb - a perfect scenario that doesn't exist usually. and personally, i have not seen this scenario where marines are beaconed back into an attacked base and they are "confused" or lacking any situational awareness.. usually the chomping sounds takes them less than a seconds to find something to shoot. but hey thats my experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As i have already illustrated, i did read your OP, now read mine. Once again i feel like im repeating myself. To use bilebomb as a reason is silly as it doesnt care if there is 1 king or 99 kings due to its splash. Let me explain what i mean again in perhaps a way easier to understand. A skulk is attacking your powernode. A clueless commander will not beacon untill the powernode is dead. A clueless ground marine will also not notice that a skulk is chewing the powernode until it is dead. Thus, to the clueless marine/commander, the powernode will seem like a bad idea because they are not actively making an effort to be aware of their surroundings beyond that of the IP (which they spawn from so that it is actively in their 'awareness').
5) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No? I've seen plenty of games where this is not true. Even if that were so, they are still picking one of three ways to stop marines from spawning automatically. can you name more than one way to do this to aliens?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, they are picking one of three ways to stop marines from spawning automatically. So what. I've already outlined three points that make this moot. a) rough parity between decisions to attack IP or powernode. b) limited availability of force c) All three options are IN THE SAME AREA IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO EACH OTHER WHERE MARINES ARE SPAWNING (AND THEY HAVE GUNZ.. which.. shoot over distances.. and stuff), making it pointless to try and say there are three <b>distinct</b> points of attack which marines must make tradeoff decisions to defend.
6) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>and remember winning conditions above:</i> causing the enemy team to cease spawning permanently, which is the next thing that happens after ceasing automatic spawning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> right and wrong. While causing the enemy team to cease spawning permanently is essentially what the NS2 win conditions are, this is not the same as the cessation of automatic spawning. IP's and powernodes can always be rebuilt and CC's can always be placed instantly.
7) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->let me finish by asking: <b>Why are you against balancing the differences between teams in the amount of ways to cease the enemy team from spawning?</b> what argument could there be? i know its not because marines statistically win more.. because they don't. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What i am against is making arguements with wrong premises and pointing out imbalances where they do not exist. I would rather people make alot of effort to try and understand the game and consider all possible options to get better and better. This is going off topic but i think games should be balanced at a higher skill level where things make sense and decisions are predictable/rational (do not misunderstand me by saying that i do not believe games should also be accessible and intuitive, but sometimes it really is the fault of the player and not the game, myself included).
8) Also, simply equalling the hp's of hives, CC's, IPs etc. or whatever groupings you want to do does not make the game balanced. This is ranged vs melee where teams have different damage outputs and damage potentials.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I apologize, you are right, that spelling correction was uncalled for. moving on?.. i get what you are saying, mostly that the points brought up are moot, mostly due to circumstantial factors that may vary, like a skilled player, but i must stress that no matter how you dice it, the subject matter of this thread refers to something that is irrefutable and on it's own without extraneous circumstances, is imbalanced yet is something that you say "<i>so what</i>" to? i feel like you are ignoring, underestimating or missing some points again, so here we go :)
<!--quoteo(post=1903706:date=Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The round does not end when you kill all the IP's or all the powernodes. These can be rebuilt whereas the last CC cannot as the round has obviously ended. Also you are misreading me, i never said that a CC requires power (not that this issue is even materially relevant to the discussion?).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the name of my thread should be changed to "why do marines have so many ways to cease spawning"... fair enough. but its none the less, an issue, and an imbalance. it is in no way asymmetrical. if all three structures shared hp equal to a hive, as harimau said, then i would agree. but its not. it does not matter how "skilled" a marine is in a hive room, there are multiple differences i have already listed between the opposing scenarios. (i,e, skulk in rine base) and once again<b> you do not balance a game by assuming high skill level or "perfect conditions".. thats just foolishly presumptuous,</b> so how is that relevant? CC's not requiring power and not being effected by power nodes is entirely relevant as it is the explanation we have been discussing for why IPs do not need to be tied to power nodes. (like how eggs don't require cysts)
<i> "i am excluding bilebomb because its effectiveness is not in any way related to how many weakpoints/kings marines may have due to its splash".</i>
bilebomb as a feature is here to stay. no matter the strength of bilebomb, the ability to disable an enemy team from spawning, <b>automatically</b>, without even having enter their room / base is definitely related to how many weakpoints.. its one of the weakpoints?! and is, as harimau and i have pointed out, the most severe of them for this reason alone. (despite them having more health than an ip)
<!--quoteo(post=1903706:date=Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So then, if not 'stopping the enemy from spawning', what does make attacking powernodes worse than the other? I then bring up the situation of sentry spam and mines where powernodes are obviously a much better option to attack and how this is a GOOD THING.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ? thats the point of this thread so there is no "if not" .. thats the whole point is stopping the enemy from spawning? i do not disagree with you that being able to take out a power node from outside the base is AN EFFECTIVE AND VIABLE STRATEGY TO DISABLE SENTRY FARMS. i do disagree, obviously, that it should be linked to spawning, as there is no parity in this matter for aliens.
<i> " It means nothing that they attacked the powernode first."</i>
you are correct. i assume no importance in this and i apologize if you interpreted that. i only meant to state the issue: there are multiple ways.
<!--quoteo(post=1903706:date=Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And actually yes, killing the eggs such that there are no more eggs DOES stop aliens from spawning just like killing a single IP if marines have only 1 IP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> no..no it doesnt.. they still will automatically spawn in time, as the hive remains. UNLIKE an ip, which would have to be rebuilt, costing res and time and comm/player interaction. this has been a major point i keep trying to get across. how is this remotely containing any parity or asymmetry? there are two ways to stop automatic spawning and one to permanently stop spawning(win) while for aliens there is only one way to do any of that.
<!--quoteo(post=1903706:date=Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cannot compare this to the marine system and say oh, the marines are imbalanced because their different to aliens. You didnt buy the arguement that marines could lock down alien spawning because of random egg spawn, well it does and it works the better your marines are. Consider a higher skill level when you talk about balance imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> once again, it is imbalanced on paper. not accounting for the many many factors in game which could occur. hydras, pgs, beacons, skill, etc etc etc... player skill level accounts for balancing at a very different and more specific level than the one we are referring to = basic parity or asymmetry in methods to cease spawning
<i>"A skulk is attacking your powernode. A clueless commander will not beacon untill the powernode is dead". </i> what?........ that can't even happen, right? doesn't he need power to beacon?? or am i taking you too literal and you are just giving an example of a poor commander?
<i>"A clueless ground marine will also not notice that a skulk is chewing the powernode until it is dead. "</i> once again you are making major assumptions on player skill level. im not even referring to something as specific and grandly varying as this! i am merely pointing out a plain difference which is countable on your hand. very different to measure than these kinds of scenarios of poor skill levels which might <b>possibly </b>negate said differences. i do not believe the developers balance the core mechanics of their game based on such theoretical presumptions, i think they attempt to create a base asymmetrical balance on paper and then tweak the finer points of mechanics in response to player adoption rates and successes. (i.e. skill ceiling of life forms etc)
<!--quoteo(post=1903706:date=Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, they are picking one of three ways to stop marines from spawning automatically. So what. I've already outlined three points that make this moot. a) rough parity between decisions to attack IP or powernode. b) limited availability of force c) All three options are IN THE SAME AREA IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO EACH OTHER WHERE MARINES ARE SPAWNING (AND THEY HAVE GUNZ.. which.. shoot over distances.. and stuff), making it pointless to try and say there are three <b>distinct</b> points of attack which marines must make tradeoff decisions to defend.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "so what" ??.. do you not see the differences and lack of parity that have been brought up again and again? its 3 vs 1, buddy. :) as for your points.: a) similarity in targets and the reasons for picking one of three do not change the simple fact that there are three. thats the point of this thread, that there are 3. b) its occurring enough in games for me (and in design doc, too, no?) to say that availability of force (skulks) is not limiting the destruction of one of these three structures, especially early game. (one of the issues which would only be helped if the changes suggested here were put into effect) c) proximity still, does not negate the amount, they have options that marines don't. i have already said enough that the power nodes are a great example of this - <i>what will guns do when staring at your power node that is getting bile bombed from a gorge thats out of sight?!</i> plus, have you never had a marine base rushed with lerks and skulks and gorges etc?? its chaos man.. it makes a huge difference in that fog of war, that there are three ways to cease our automatic spawning. <b>this option is not available to marines when in a hive.</b>
<i>"IP's and powernodes can always be rebuilt and CC's can always be placed instantly." </i> and you don't see the imbalance here between aliens and marines in this situation?? basic differences in requiring res, building etc in order to restore??
<!--quoteo(post=1903706:date=Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What i am against is making arguements with wrong premises and pointing out imbalances where they do not exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i would have preferred that you answered my question directly. i still do not see an argument against it, just your concern that we are focusing in the wrong area and that we should rely on players bettering themselves in lieu of what we suggest.. what harm would be done by making said changes??
<!--quoteo(post=1903706:date=Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->8) Also, simply equalling the hp's of hives, CC's, IPs etc. or whatever groupings you want to do does not make the game balanced. This is ranged vs melee where teams have different damage outputs and damage potentials.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I/we never made that claim. I/we only make the claim that as it stands currently, there is an imbalance between the two. and i agree, the differences of ranged vs melee should be taken into account. should we find that by making proposed changes we encounter issues relating to this very difference, then i would obviously scrap them. but its hard to see how that is relevant in this particular case, every instance i can think of i can rebuttal myself.
great discussion? thanks for the in depth responses and i totally get your concerns, but believe you are considering immeasurable variables too much instead of the founding, basic, core asymmetry that can be measured on paper.
Mm, I don't really like power nodes myself, they seem like a massive liability in marine bases, and an unneccesary one with the addition of the onos and the new bile bomb.
Personally I think that both hives and CCs should 'lock' power nodes, either by infesting them or by maybe electrifying them/permanently nanoshielding them, that way marines can't sneak structures into the hive, and aliens can't cheap shot the marine base.
I'd also suggest the same for res nodes, a res node in a hive room should be tougher than an outlying one.
<!--quoteo(post=1903560:date=Feb 16 2012, 01:43 AM:name=PersianImm0rtal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PersianImm0rtal @ Feb 16 2012, 01:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe have it so that after you kill a powernode, the structures slowly lose power, after like 30 seconds or so. That way marines have a chance to get things back online.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was my thought as well on fixing the liability of power nodes. In my experience the power nodes are too exposed to aliens. They mostly dont need to enter the base to take this out, making the marines base more vulnerable.
My idea was to make the IP react like the lighting in the area. When the node gets destroyed everything powers down for a few seconds, and then goes over to the emergency energysource. Just make the IP spawntime twice as long maybe? That would be in sync with the lighting dimming down a bit as well (but not disappearing completely)
This should atleast give the marines a fighting chance to regain control of their base after power has turned down (since there will be marines spawning in to assist)
My temp-fix suggestion is to allow power nodes to be 'fortified' for a (hefty? 20-30) resource cost. Marine start node should spawn 'fortified'. Otherwise, marines should defend the CC if it's being attacked, and the comm should drop a Robo and some MACs & SGs.
As far as the balance goes, marines typically can't expand without a team of top notch players. It seems an average 2:1 KDR is a baseline for a marine victory since spawn cycles are so important and aliens can zip right back to the same spot while marines must return to base, resupply, and run back to their precious RT only to be eaten by Mr. Skulk and his buddies. Meanwhile, the alien comm just plops down pustules and extractors overtaking the entire map. This leaves the marines bunched into a corner making the IPs, main Power Node, and Comm Chair EXTREMELY vulnerable.
So, I think the current win/loss ratio is a function of [marine expansion rate & mobility] vs. [alien expansion rate & mobility]. Maybe tracking data on 'Rez Nodes held @ time T' against simple 'KDR' would reveal something magical. Namely, marines try to expand, marines die with their RTs, and aliens just overtake the map. I think if this were fixed, then the whole "marines have so many ways to lose" issue would be almost forgotten.
Comments
Playing on Australian servers, I have found that marines tend to ever only win when the other alien team is completely outskilled by the marine team and hence have little to no map control, leaving the marines with majority of the nodes with little contest.
In the case of an even match, marines will more often than not be on the losing end of a stalemate as they struggle to hold more than 2 res nodes in the mid game. The longer the match progresses the more it becomes apparent that marines lose and it just becomes a last stand (which can at times be quite fun, but that is not the point of the game nor this post)
It has also been mentioned (whether it was this thread or another, i cant remember) that a few skulks can finish off a cc before marines can even walk back to defend it, finishing the game for the aliens and leaving an extremely anti climatic game. This has occurred rather often during my plays, where marines have made a push towards the hive while capping along the way, only to hear that the cc is under attack and then lose because beacon failed (or not enough res at the time) and commander was outnumbered.
I do play aliens at times, and more often than not my points above stay true, albeit in the perspective of an alien
This is just my opinion of course, and maybe this only has happened when I have played, but nonetheless the marine loss trend is something that I definitely notice on Australian servers when I play.
This probably needs to be another post but I for one feel that the resource system for marines needs to be reworked (perhaps aliens too?) and another look at the power node system (takes so goddamn long to be repaired as opposed to being plugged for the first time!!!!!).
NS2 don't need no stinking equality - NS2 is based on asymmetry.
Was never a fan of the new CC model. Too big, too square and it takes ages to login.
If the CC would be as big as in NS1 marines would have less problems to defend it.
I agree with Laosh'Ra. Atleast when the welder is in and it is mid to late game, the marines don't really need a com. IMO the losing rules should be the same as in NS1.
The Aliens lose if all hives are destroyed, then they get damaged all 3s till they die.
The marines lose if all ips and marines are dead.
With this rules we could prevent that the marines lose while they are killing the last hive. The game really should end when <b>all</b> enemyplayers are dead and can't spawn.
Even in a situation where the commander uses becon to bring marines with 3-3 upgrades as soon as alien rush start in a 6v6 game, aliens still have a high chance of victory. Its so easy for the aliens to move around the cc and hide behind/above it since its so big. Also it dies to fast.
The reason this was not a issue in ns1 is because it was easier to defend the cc and you could simply drop another one in base if aliens were biting it down, so it was useless to rush it.
That is asymmetry for the sake of asymmetry, even if it's detrimental to the gameplay (which it is). The OP has given examples in subsequent posts about his experiences that prove that "something is wrong".
The fact is, aliens have too many good options - too many easy options. The power node, for instance, is the worst. At the very least, it shouldn't disable spawning (i.e. IPs). Personally, I think the entire power node idea should be revisited.
CCs and IPs are kind of bundled together, so I'm not hugely concerned about those - though taking out the IP is still too easy of an option to taking out a CC (or put another way, taking out the IP is still too easy of an option for aliens compared to taking out a hive is for marines).
In terms of how eggs relate to power nodes or IPs, you shouldn't say that it means that it's "balanced" that a marine can take out all the eggs and thus prevent spawning - the issue is with the eggs here. Eggs should respawn faster the less eggs there are (per hive), e.g.
Time to next egg = 1 + current number of eggs
I think you guys need to consider what's fun first. Forcibly sitting in spawn queue unable to do anything until the game ends without you isn't fun. Work on the balance using fun as the base.
Also, a lot of "cheap wins" would be limited if there were structure damage scaling with team size. i.e.
Damage to structure = standard damage * standard number of players per team / current number of players on the team
It feels like, currently, the game is full of band-aid fixes for stalemates. But I think that in terms of top-level design, you could shift the focus away from anti-player upgrades to anti-structure upgrades. So the game is far more balanced on a player vs player level regardless of map control, but on a team vs team level the game is skewed towards the team with better map control (it is easier for them to kill the structures that end the game).
Btw. as I see that the aliens are winning more games right now, you have to keep in mind, that you have to find a solution that don't lead to stalemates. A gorge with Bilebomb (= 3 Hives !!!) should simply have the possibility to end the game. When the aliens got 3 hives its "good bye" for the marines. And when the marines can manage to defend 3 Hive-Positions, they are able to build 3 more CCs and IPs. Map control isn't only a word. You have to use it wisely. Simply build Sentries, more CCs and IPs in other locations. This will prevent the surprise-losing.
But as I said there is an imbalance right now favoring the aliens. Just not sure if you have found the right problem.
Marines have to defend their base if they have only one. If they have 2 bases it shoulndt be such a great a problem. What's the cost fo a CC? 20Res? Ips are 10Res? so setting up a 2nd CC + 2 IPs cost as much as Armor/Weapon Upgrade Level 2? That's pretty cheap in my eyes.
Also like many others said already the both sides arent be meant to be symetric.
Btw. as I see that the aliens are winning more games right now, you have to keep in mind, that you have to find a solution that don't lead to stalemates. A gorge with Bilebomb (= 3 Hives !!!) should simply have the possibility to end the game. When the aliens got 3 hives its "good bye" for the marines. And when the marines can manage to defend 3 Hive-Positions, they are able to build 3 more CCs and IPs. Map control isn't only a word. You have to use it wisely. Simply build Sentries, more CCs and IPs in other locations. This will prevent the surprise-losing.
But as I said there is an imbalance right now favoring the aliens. Just not sure if you have found the right problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think bilebomb needs to stay at 2nd hive, it gives the gorge a good role and helps aliens to play offencive vs siege positions. If bilebomb needs to be stronger for the end game then it could get a 3rd hive upgrade making it more powerful.
The idea for marines to build more CC, ip's and turrets is impractical without changing the game away from the ns1 mechanics or giving the marines really good reason to hold the tech points. There is no reason for marines to spend res on anything but phase gates for map control atm. If marines do afford more CC and turrets its simply better to get upgrades for your marines and weapons to overpower the alien team. If you focus on getting turrets and more CC it will be easy for the alien team to get more hives and adv lifeforms. Also it will be easy for them to deal with marines since they will lack upgrades and weapons they need to fight them.
Even though there marines do manage to get 2-3 CC ups and defend them while at the same time pressuring the alien team they would still lose if the power node in marine start was taken down. All their main structures are in marine start, meaning they will lose all their upgrades(arms lab) and the adv weapons(armory). It will take time ,manpower and res to rebuild a new base and meanwhile aliens will have taken the map.
The fact is, aliens have multiple "win conditions" while marines only have one "win condition". If all "win conditions" were equal (e.g. power nodes, IPs and CCs all have the same <b>relative</b> health as the hive - relative based on damage differences between aliens and marines), this would not matter <b>as</b> much; but it would <b>still</b> matter because, looking at it from the other perspective: marines have three "win conditions" to <b>defend against</b>, while aliens only have one "win condition" to <b>defend against</b>. So, mathematically speaking, if marines and aliens do the same damage, then in order to be balanced: power node health = IP health = CC health = 3*hive health; because the three win conditions are dispersed amongst the three, while the one win condition is focused on the one, so it must be three times as hard for each of the three compared to just the one, so that the average win difficulty for each team is the same.
An oversimplification, yes, but I'm sure you could see why this would be a problem.
It's 68% rather than 80%, actually. <a href="http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/displayendgamestats?version=195&output=chart" target="_blank">http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/disp...mp;output=chart</a>.
Still, that means aliens win 2 out of every 3 games. Its still far from being balanced.
The idea for marines to build more CC, ip's and turrets is impractical without changing the game away from the ns1 mechanics or giving the marines really good reason to hold the tech points.
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought more CC's meant more nano-balls.
The nano-balls are pretty awesome (and frustrating as an alien).
The idea for marines to build more CC, ip's and turrets is impractical without changing the game away from the ns1 mechanics or giving the marines really good reason to hold the tech points. There is no reason for marines to spend res on anything but phase gates for map control atm. If marines do afford more CC and turrets its simply better to get upgrades for your marines and weapons to overpower the alien team. If you focus on getting turrets and more CC it will be easy for the alien team to get more hives and adv lifeforms. Also it will be easy for them to deal with marines since they will lack upgrades and weapons they need to fight them.
Even though there marines do manage to get 2-3 CC ups and defend them while at the same time pressuring the alien team they would still lose if the power node in marine start was taken down. All their main structures are in marine start, meaning they will lose all their upgrades(arms lab) and the adv weapons(armory). It will take time ,manpower and res to rebuild a new base and meanwhile aliens will have taken the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grissi it's not like its the same for the aliens, when you lose your tech chambers you have to rebuild them also, new crags, shade and whips as well. Its currently not as expensive as for the marines but with the shifts comming its going to be close. And since you lose abilities and the ability to transform in higher lifeforms i would compare it with loosing your arms lab etc.
come on you know thats what i meant. i used that word like 20 times already in this thread. and i already explained how its NOT asymmetrical.
<!--quoteo(post=1903477:date=Feb 15 2012, 10:35 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Feb 15 2012, 10:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A gorge with Bilebomb (= 3 Hives !!!) should simply have the possibility to end the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i disagree. i believe teamwork should end the game,<i> its been the requirement this entire time</i>, for marines and even for an Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=1903478:date=Feb 15 2012, 10:41 AM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Feb 15 2012, 10:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903478"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just dont get it why the marines arent investing in 2nd CC and IPs when they have Res for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree this is an issue, and like mentioned above its because emphasis has been slightly removed from tech points for marines. making a CC a power source for IPs can help change this imo. currently its just too much of a risk as a commander to throw down 30 res in a sentry-less, PG-less room with a powernode that can easily be destroyed, negating all your work like an off switch.
<!--quoteo(post=1903479:date=Feb 15 2012, 10:52 AM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Feb 15 2012, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea for marines to build more CC, ip's and turrets is impractical without changing the game away from the ns1 mechanics or giving the marines really good reason to hold the tech points. There is no reason for marines to spend res on anything but phase gates for map control atm. If marines do afford more CC and turrets its simply better to get upgrades for your marines and weapons to overpower the alien team.
Even though there marines do manage to get 2-3 CC ups and defend them while at the same time pressuring the alien team they would still lose if the power node in marine start was taken down. All their main structures are in marine start, meaning they will lose all their upgrades(arms lab) and the adv weapons(armory). It will take time ,manpower and res to rebuild a new base and meanwhile aliens will have taken the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this man speaketh the truth, and he may be onto the real issue (since some are claiming i am searching in the wrong place for whatever is "wrong") at hand. tech points having more importance for marines could only be a good thing - alleviating some rushes, alleviating stalemates, alleviating turtling, and contributing to the map control tug of war while adding to the intuitiveness for new players as they will understand<b> marines aren't just defending from a map take over ; they are part of that take over.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1903483:date=Feb 15 2012, 11:15 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 15 2012, 11:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Asymmetry is a poor excuse for imbalance.
The fact is, aliens have multiple "win conditions" while marines only have one "win condition". If all "win conditions" were equal (e.g. power nodes, IPs and CCs all have the same <b>relative</b> health as the hive - relative based on damage differences between aliens and marines), this would not matter <b>as</b> much; but it would <b>still</b> matter because, looking at it from the other perspective: marines have three "win conditions" to <b>defend against</b>, while aliens only have one "win condition" to <b>defend against</b>. So, mathematically speaking, if marines and aliens do the same damage, then in order to be balanced: power node health = IP health = CC health = 3*hive health; because the three win conditions are dispersed amongst the three, while the one win condition is focused on the one, so it must be three times as hard for each of the three compared to just the one, so that the average win difficulty for each team is the same.
An oversimplification, yes, but I'm sure you could see why this would be a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thanks Harimau. ;) you are far more articulate than i am
<!--quoteo(post=1903507:date=Feb 15 2012, 01:10 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Feb 15 2012, 01:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Grissi it's not like its the same for the aliens, when you lose your tech chambers you have to rebuild them also,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea but what he's pointing out is, its more beneficial and less risky for a hive to be put up than it is for a CC to be put up. a 2nd CC all by itself does NOTHING for marines currently.. no extra tech, no upgrades, no new structures, no new spawn location (you still have to build another structure for that) .. the only similarity between the two is that they are both easy to take down as others and myself have said. but thats another issue altogether i believe.
@soulrider: i believe you are confused or misunderstanding what is being said. in short: there is a problem. harimau's post might clear it up for you.
i love the idea of gorge bile bomb being upgraded.. as long as its still, overall, less effective! (does it really take ONE bilebomb to take down a mac or was that a glitch i saw?)
The idea for marines to build more CC, ip's and turrets is impractical without changing the game away from the ns1 mechanics or giving the marines really good reason to hold the tech points. There is no reason for marines to spend res on anything but phase gates for map control atm. If marines do afford more CC and turrets its simply better to get upgrades for your marines and weapons to overpower the alien team. If you focus on getting turrets and more CC it will be easy for the alien team to get more hives and adv lifeforms. Also it will be easy for them to deal with marines since they will lack upgrades and weapons they need to fight them.
Even though there marines do manage to get 2-3 CC ups and defend them while at the same time pressuring the alien team they would still lose if the power node in marine start was taken down. All their main structures are in marine start, meaning they will lose all their upgrades(arms lab) and the adv weapons(armory). It will take time ,manpower and res to rebuild a new base and meanwhile aliens will have taken the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh ok, I thought bilebomb would be on hive 3 like in NS1. Discovered just today that you can use it with 2 hives. And ok, than I think, the CC should be like a second powernode and no lose condition.
IPs and Phase Gates would keep working, in both cases the structure is too vulnerable in terms of powernodes.
Because they have shotguns.
The fact is, aliens have multiple "win conditions" while marines only have one "win condition". If all "win conditions" were equal (e.g. power nodes, IPs and CCs all have the same <b>relative</b> health as the hive - relative based on damage differences between aliens and marines), this would not matter <b>as</b> much; but it would <b>still</b> matter because, looking at it from the other perspective: marines have three "win conditions" to <b>defend against</b>, while aliens only have one "win condition" to <b>defend against</b>. So, mathematically speaking, if marines and aliens do the same damage, then in order to be balanced: power node health = IP health = CC health = 3*hive health; because the three win conditions are dispersed amongst the three, while the one win condition is focused on the one, so it must be three times as hard for each of the three compared to just the one, so that the average win difficulty for each team is the same.
An oversimplification, yes, but I'm sure you could see why this would be a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good analysis. It may be simpler if the game ending conditions are seen as a three-link chain for marines - the weakest breaks and the game ends. For aliens it would be a one-link chain (i know...). Do you think that power node, ip, cc need to be three times hive health? It would seem enough if each marine target/link was an equivalent of just one hive in terms of health. I know you say that in the beginning of your post, but then the formula is 3*hive health.
While this one was my favourite solution, the others have their own charm. I very much like the 30 seconds power down time after taking out the node or ip/ph being independent of power.
i really like this...even if its just the power nodes in a base.
it still serves its purpose, prevents cheese wins, gives a fighting chance to save your spawn abilities, and a fighting chance to save room X just because a singular player ninja'd your power node and is akin to infestation almost in that delay. how many seconds does it take for an unconnected cyst to die?
@swalk: thats exactly what i recommend.
@Onosfactory: thank you for your helpful contribution to the topic ;)
Is everyone forgetting that the powernode powering the IP's, and the CC are <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>all in the same room in easy LOS of each other</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->? With the exclusion of bilebomb for obvious reasons, it takes roughly the same ammount of time to kill (multiple) IP's as it does to kill a powernode, both resulting in the same situation where marines are unable to spawn. So what makes one inherently 'worse' than the other? Why are powernodes not grouped together with IP's and CC's? They are just as easily defendable if not more so due to their placement against walls which results in ease of mining right?
a) Powernodes are generally attackable from outside the room. Excluding broken bilebomb, this means aliens have a way to counter sentry spam farms directly without running through all the sentry's and attacking IP's/CC where all the marines are generally clumped up as well. This is a good thing. At most there are only 2 sentries guarding a powernode as opposed to the 100 guarding the IP and CC.
b) marines are clueless and lack situational awareness such that they only take note of whether the IP/CC is under attack as that is in their direct LOS as soon as they spawn (or they don't look at minimap).
If you want to talk about win conditions specifically then understand that they are actually one for one.
Marine win condition
1-Kill all hives
Alien win condition
1-Kill all the CCs
Killing any marine placed structure will always be detrimental to the marine team, some more so such as killing a powernode or IP's. For example, sniping the AA can be equally as game ending as killing a powernode.
What people are not considering when they assert imbalance in regards to powernodes is the situation surrounding when the powernode generally is taken out. If one skulk was to somehow ninja and kill the powernode in your base because everyone is not checking their minimaps, then it is not game over. The skulk is easily killed and the powernode is easily repaired. What people are seeing however in their play is powernodes being taken out as one of the last alien moves that finishes a game that is already an alien victory.
you are ignoring some major factors, man.
for one, win conditions are dependent on permanently stopping the spawning of the enemy team. shooting eggs does not do this, but destroying base power node does stop automatic spawning, destroying an ip does, and destroying the comm chair permanently stops spawning.
and you are also wrong in that a CC does not require power, to either build nor operate.
<i>"Excluding broken bilebomb, this means aliens have a way to counter<strike> sentry spam farms</strike> <b>enemy spawning </b>directly without running through all the sentry's and attacking IP's/CC where all the marines are generally clumped up as well. "</i>
this answers your "So what makes one inherently 'worse' than the other?"
<i>
" in fact, i have yet to see a proper reason showing why having powernode/IP/CC is unbalanced at all."</i>
its<b> im</b>balanced in comparison to aliens' method of spawning for the reasons harimau puts simply a few posts up. also read the underlined parts of my OP for further clarification.
<i>"marines are clueless and lack situational awareness"</i>
once again, read my OP, situational awareness doesn't count for much with two bile bombing gorges. marines lose ability to respawn before they can even beacon back in - even if their awareness began from the first bile bomb - a perfect scenario that doesn't exist usually. and personally, i have not seen this scenario where marines are beaconed back into an attacked base and they are "confused" or lacking any situational awareness.. usually the chomping sounds takes them less than a seconds to find something to shoot. but hey thats my experience.
<i>"What people are seeing however in their play is powernodes being taken out as one of the last alien moves that finishes a game that is already an alien victory."</i>
No? I've seen plenty of games where this is not true. Even if that were so, they are still picking one of three ways to stop marines from spawning automatically. can you name more than one way to do this to aliens? <i>and remember winning conditions above:</i> causing the enemy team to cease spawning permanently, which is the next thing that happens after ceasing automatic spawning.
let me finish by asking:
<b>Why are you against balancing the differences between teams in the amount of ways to cease the enemy team from spawning?</b> what argument could there be? i know its not because marines statistically win more.. because they don't. :)
While this one was my favourite solution, the others have their own charm. I very much like the 30 seconds power down time after taking out the node or ip/ph being independent of power.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was just a simplification. The reasoning was something like this, kind of considering it like resistance in parallel circuits:
<i>1/hive health = 1/power node health + 1/IP health + 1/CC health</i>
but (for equal win conditions, i.e. the strength of each link in the chain is the same - a good analogy btw!)
<i>power node health = IP health = CC health = "health"</i>
so
<i>1/hive health = 3/"health"</i>
so
<i>"health" = 3*hive health</i>
The thing is, also, that you can have multiple IPs, so it is only the last IP that is the true win condition, so having multiple IPs would make winning through the IP route just that much harder. So to balance this mathematically, you'd want to divide IP health by the number of IPs there were.
If resistance doesn't work for you, you could consider the above the following way: Marines have to divide their defense amongst three conditions, while aliens can focus their defense on one condition, so the defense going to each condition for the marines is one third of the defense going to the condition for the aliens: so each marine condition should be thrice as hard.
But when you look at it this way, it becomes obvious that marines can, in reality, shift all their defense to the one win condition as necessary, so a more balanced approach from this perspective would be:
<i>power node health = IP health = CC health = hive health</i>
but we are, again, ignoring the fact that marines have multiple win conditions to defend against. So perhaps you'd want to take the average, then:
<i>power node health = IP health = CC health = 2*hive health</i>
or you'd give the dispersal effect a weighting, e.g. 10%
<i>power node health = IP health = CC health = (0.1)*3*hive health + (1-0.1)*hive health = 1.2*hive health</i>
Note that none of the above approach is really a suggestion (way too many dependencies really), I'm just, hopefully, pointing out the problem by considering a "balanced" approach.
The current approach is not balanced because:
1) the alien win conditions are not equal, so marine defense is "only as strong as the weakest link in the chain" (usually the IP or the power node)
2) the alien win conditions are dispersed amongst multiple win conditions, so the marine defense is dispersed amongst multiple conditions * this is all relative in scale: as elodea helpfully points out, these three are usually in LOS of each other, so the dispersal <b>is</b> somewhat limited, but it <b>is</b> definitely still there (alien teams could attack both the IP, the CC and the power nodes at the same time)
So my suggestion, really, is that you implement one win condition for each side (only one thing to defend), and these should be equal in resistance/difficulty. Throw out any detrimental asymmetry. Asymmetry + Balance together is an extremely difficult thing to achieve, because there are far too many dependencies and few fail-safes.
So here are some serious suggestions:
Something that would make more sense to me from a design perspective (if not quite from a player/thematic perspective) is if CCs and the last-attached IP shared the same health, so you unify the win condition, and the relative health of the CC+IP combo is equal to the relative health of the Hive.
In terms of actually implementing it in game, you would just <b>divert any damage done to the last IP to the CC it is attached to</b>: in a way, the last IP would be invulnerable. Justifying it thematically... <b>nanites</b>. Showing it to the player... <b>draw some visual effect between the last IP and the CC</b>.
Naturally, as I said before, <b>taking out the power node should, at the very least, not disable the IPs</b>. So basically we are removing power nodes as a win condition. In fact, from a thematic perspective, the CC doesn't require power, and the IPs are attached to the CC, so why would the IPs need power?
It is not as if suddenly both sides play exactly the same, even in their approach to victory. The asymmetry is still there, but any detrimental asymmetry has been removed.
Naturally, as I said before, taking out the power node should, at the very least, not disable the IPs. So basically we are removing power nodes as a win condition. In fact, from a thematic perspective, the CC doesn't require power, and the IPs are attached to the CC, so why would the IPs need power?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Genius.
if that paragraph was implemented tomorrow so many issues would disappear.
1) <!--quoteo(post=1903668:date=Feb 16 2012, 04:38 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 16 2012, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you are ignoring some major factors, man. for one, win conditions are dependent on permanently stopping the spawning of the enemy team. [...]
and you are also wrong in that a CC does not require power, to either build nor operate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, the win conditions in NS2 are very clear. Kill the last hive, or kill the last CC or the last marine to prevent him from using the last CC. There is win condition parity, the rest is balance. When you and harimau started talking about win conditions in a very specific fashion, i had to point this out. The round does not end when you kill all the IP's or all the powernodes. These can be rebuilt whereas the last CC cannot as the round has obviously ended.
Also you are misreading me, i never said that a CC requires power (not that this issue is even materially relevant to the discussion?).
2) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Excluding broken bilebomb, this means aliens have a way to counter<strike> sentry spam farms</strike> <b>enemy spawning </b>directly without running through all the sentry's and attacking IP's/CC where all the marines are generally clumped up as well. "[/i]
this answers your "So what makes one inherently 'worse' than the other?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
? You are misreading me again. And before i say anything else, i think i should make it clear to you that i am excluding bilebomb because its effectiveness is not in any way related to how many weakpoints/kings marines may have due to its splash.
Let me outline the arguement for you.
-<!--QuoteBegin-Harimau+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact is, aliens have too many good options - too many easy options. The power node, for instance, <b>is the worst</b>. At the very least, it shouldn't disable spawning (i.e. IPs).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I respond by asking the general question, what makes powernodes inherently worse than IP's? In a world without turrets and mines on the topic of "stopping the enemy from spawning", I outline that there actually is parity between the two in that it takes roughly the same ammount of time/effort to kill a powernode, 2000 health + 1000 armour = 4000hp, as it does 2 IPs, 2*(2250 health + 125 armour) = 5000hp. Take into account that attacking IP's is spawn camping and prevents marine spawning to a certain degree and you will see that the decision between attacking the IP's and the powernode is roughly the same where neither is very much 'worse' than the other.
So then, if not 'stopping the enemy from spawning', what does make attacking powernodes worse than the other? I then bring up the situation of sentry spam and mines where powernodes are obviously a much better option to attack and how this is a GOOD THING. I already sought to answer my own question and outlined one situation where it was infact a good thing that powernodes were weaker.
3) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its<b> im</b>balanced in comparison to aliens' method of spawning for the reasons harimau puts simply a few posts up. also read the underlined parts of my OP for further clarification.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not only do i think it condescending and childish to correct spelling as a point of discussion, but <b>un</b>balanced is also a correct use. I actually have read the points and examples you and harimau have posted and thought they were all not very good. For fear of posting a wall of text i didnt want to respond specifically and in detail to each one of them but if you so wish i will.
-<i>
until last night when i saw aliens rush sub access late game and bile bomb/skulk the power node. Our huge lead as marines was for nothing as they shut us down right there, so easily, and without even entering our base.
</i>
Great example, but this is because of OP bilebomb, vents in sub access and lack of weldability on the door to xroads. Lets say the game had no powernodes. The gorge and skulk would have just killed your IP's twice as quick (each IP has roughly half the health of a powernode) as well as your armoury, your obs, the phasegate, the mines and basically every single structure in your base. It means nothing that they attacked the powernode first.
-<i>
Another game a skulk rush took out our IPs and then just took their time picking off our team, And finally i saw two gorges bile bomb the comm chair to death before we could even beacon back.... all I was left with was: why do marines have so many ways to instantly lose a game/stop spawning in comparison to aliens?
</i>
Same thing. They attacked your IP's? Ok lets imagine the game didnt have powernodes or IPs and that marines spawned from thin air. The aliens would have just attacked the CC and you would still have lost. They attacked your CC? Ok lets imagine the game didnt ahve CC's or powernodes. Oh, the aliens would just attack the IP's and you would have still lost. Starting to see what i mean?
-<i>
I know what you're thinking: aliens have eggs, shoot those! .. yea but shooting a single egg does not stop all spawning like killing a single IP does.
</i>
This is totally different to the marine mechanic in that it actually genuinely provides two distinct ways in which aliens can lose - one soft, one hard. And actually yes, killing the eggs such that there are no more eggs DOES stop aliens from spawning just like killing a single IP if marines have only 1 IP. All it takes is one pres (ammo pack) to kill like two eggs such that if you ever get into the right position you can literally lock aliens down from spawning for a very low cost. High reward, high initial risk/effort. Totally different system. You cannot compare this to the marine system and say oh, the marines are imbalanced because their different to aliens.
You didnt buy the arguement that marines could lock down alien spawning because of random egg spawn, well it does and it works the better your marines are. Consider a higher skill level when you talk about balance imo.
-<!--QuoteBegin-Harimau+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That is asymmetry for the sake of asymmetry, even if it's detrimental to the gameplay (which it is). The OP has given examples in subsequent posts about his experiences that prove that "something is wrong".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sometimes i feel like im playing a different game.
4) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->once again, read my OP, situational awareness doesn't count for much with two bile bombing gorges. marines lose ability to respawn before they can even beacon back in - even if their awareness began from the first bile bomb - a perfect scenario that doesn't exist usually. and personally, i have not seen this scenario where marines are beaconed back into an attacked base and they are "confused" or lacking any situational awareness.. usually the chomping sounds takes them less than a seconds to find something to shoot. but hey thats my experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As i have already illustrated, i did read your OP, now read mine. Once again i feel like im repeating myself. To use bilebomb as a reason is silly as it doesnt care if there is 1 king or 99 kings due to its splash. Let me explain what i mean again in perhaps a way easier to understand. A skulk is attacking your powernode. A clueless commander will not beacon untill the powernode is dead. A clueless ground marine will also not notice that a skulk is chewing the powernode until it is dead. Thus, to the clueless marine/commander, the powernode will seem like a bad idea because they are not actively making an effort to be aware of their surroundings beyond that of the IP (which they spawn from so that it is actively in their 'awareness').
5) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No? I've seen plenty of games where this is not true. Even if that were so, they are still picking one of three ways to stop marines from spawning automatically. can you name more than one way to do this to aliens?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, they are picking one of three ways to stop marines from spawning automatically. So what. I've already outlined three points that make this moot.
a) rough parity between decisions to attack IP or powernode.
b) limited availability of force
c) All three options are IN THE SAME AREA IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO EACH OTHER WHERE MARINES ARE SPAWNING (AND THEY HAVE GUNZ.. which.. shoot over distances.. and stuff), making it pointless to try and say there are three <b>distinct</b> points of attack which marines must make tradeoff decisions to defend.
6) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>and remember winning conditions above:</i> causing the enemy team to cease spawning permanently, which is the next thing that happens after ceasing automatic spawning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
right and wrong. While causing the enemy team to cease spawning permanently is essentially what the NS2 win conditions are, this is not the same as the cessation of automatic spawning. IP's and powernodes can always be rebuilt and CC's can always be placed instantly.
7) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->let me finish by asking:
<b>Why are you against balancing the differences between teams in the amount of ways to cease the enemy team from spawning?</b> what argument could there be? i know its not because marines statistically win more.. because they don't. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What i am against is making arguements with wrong premises and pointing out imbalances where they do not exist. I would rather people make alot of effort to try and understand the game and consider all possible options to get better and better. This is going off topic but i think games should be balanced at a higher skill level where things make sense and decisions are predictable/rational (do not misunderstand me by saying that i do not believe games should also be accessible and intuitive, but sometimes it really is the fault of the player and not the game, myself included).
8) Also, simply equalling the hp's of hives, CC's, IPs etc. or whatever groupings you want to do does not make the game balanced. This is ranged vs melee where teams have different damage outputs and damage potentials.
i get what you are saying, mostly that the points brought up are moot, mostly due to circumstantial factors that may vary, like a skilled player, but i must stress that no matter how you dice it, the subject matter of this thread refers to something that is irrefutable and on it's own without extraneous circumstances, is imbalanced yet is something that you say "<i>so what</i>" to? i feel like you are ignoring, underestimating or missing some points again, so here we go :)
<!--quoteo(post=1903706:date=Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The round does not end when you kill all the IP's or all the powernodes. These can be rebuilt whereas the last CC cannot as the round has obviously ended.
Also you are misreading me, i never said that a CC requires power (not that this issue is even materially relevant to the discussion?).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the name of my thread should be changed to "why do marines have so many ways to cease spawning"... fair enough. but its none the less, an issue, and an imbalance. it is in no way asymmetrical. if all three structures shared hp equal to a hive, as harimau said, then i would agree. but its not. it does not matter how "skilled" a marine is in a hive room, there are multiple differences i have already listed between the opposing scenarios. (i,e, skulk in rine base) and once again<b> you do not balance a game by assuming high skill level or "perfect conditions".. thats just foolishly presumptuous,</b> so how is that relevant?
CC's not requiring power and not being effected by power nodes is entirely relevant as it is the explanation we have been discussing for why IPs do not need to be tied to power nodes. (like how eggs don't require cysts)
<i> "i am excluding bilebomb because its effectiveness is not in any way related to how many weakpoints/kings marines may have due to its splash".</i>
bilebomb as a feature is here to stay. no matter the strength of bilebomb, the ability to disable an enemy team from spawning, <b>automatically</b>, without even having enter their room / base is definitely related to how many weakpoints.. its one of the weakpoints?! and is, as harimau and i have pointed out, the most severe of them for this reason alone. (despite them having more health than an ip)
<!--quoteo(post=1903706:date=Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So then, if not 'stopping the enemy from spawning', what does make attacking powernodes worse than the other? I then bring up the situation of sentry spam and mines where powernodes are obviously a much better option to attack and how this is a GOOD THING.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
? thats the point of this thread so there is no "if not" .. thats the whole point is stopping the enemy from spawning? i do not disagree with you that being able to take out a power node from outside the base is AN EFFECTIVE AND VIABLE STRATEGY TO DISABLE SENTRY FARMS. i do disagree, obviously, that it should be linked to spawning, as there is no parity in this matter for aliens.
<i>
" It means nothing that they attacked the powernode first."</i>
you are correct. i assume no importance in this and i apologize if you interpreted that.
i only meant to state the issue: there are multiple ways.
<!--quoteo(post=1903706:date=Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And actually yes, killing the eggs such that there are no more eggs DOES stop aliens from spawning just like killing a single IP if marines have only 1 IP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no..no it doesnt.. they still will automatically spawn in time, as the hive remains. UNLIKE an ip, which would have to be rebuilt, costing res and time and comm/player interaction. this has been a major point i keep trying to get across. how is this remotely containing any parity or asymmetry? there are two ways to stop automatic spawning and one to permanently stop spawning(win) while for aliens there is only one way to do any of that.
<!--quoteo(post=1903706:date=Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cannot compare this to the marine system and say oh, the marines are imbalanced because their different to aliens.
You didnt buy the arguement that marines could lock down alien spawning because of random egg spawn, well it does and it works the better your marines are. Consider a higher skill level when you talk about balance imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
once again, it is imbalanced on paper. not accounting for the many many factors in game which could occur. hydras, pgs, beacons, skill, etc etc etc... player skill level accounts for balancing at a very different and more specific level than the one we are referring to = basic parity or asymmetry in methods to cease spawning
<i>"A skulk is attacking your powernode. A clueless commander will not beacon untill the powernode is dead". </i>
what?........ that can't even happen, right? doesn't he need power to beacon?? or am i taking you too literal and you are just giving an example of a poor commander?
<i>"A clueless ground marine will also not notice that a skulk is chewing the powernode until it is dead. "</i>
once again you are making major assumptions on player skill level. im not even referring to something as specific and grandly varying as this! i am merely pointing out a plain difference which is countable on your hand. very different to measure than these kinds of scenarios of poor skill levels which might <b>possibly </b>negate said differences. i do not believe the developers balance the core mechanics of their game based on such theoretical presumptions, i think they attempt to create a base asymmetrical balance on paper and then tweak the finer points of mechanics in response to player adoption rates and successes. (i.e. skill ceiling of life forms etc)
<!--quoteo(post=1903706:date=Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, they are picking one of three ways to stop marines from spawning automatically. So what. I've already outlined three points that make this moot.
a) rough parity between decisions to attack IP or powernode.
b) limited availability of force
c) All three options are IN THE SAME AREA IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO EACH OTHER WHERE MARINES ARE SPAWNING (AND THEY HAVE GUNZ.. which.. shoot over distances.. and stuff), making it pointless to try and say there are three <b>distinct</b> points of attack which marines must make tradeoff decisions to defend.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"so what" ??.. do you not see the differences and lack of parity that have been brought up again and again? its 3 vs 1, buddy. :)
as for your points.:
a) similarity in targets and the reasons for picking one of three do not change the simple fact that there are three. thats the point of this thread, that there are 3.
b) its occurring enough in games for me (and in design doc, too, no?) to say that availability of force (skulks) is not limiting the destruction of one of these three structures, especially early game. (one of the issues which would only be helped if the changes suggested here were put into effect)
c) proximity still, does not negate the amount, they have options that marines don't. i have already said enough that the power nodes are a great example of this - <i>what will guns do when staring at your power node that is getting bile bombed from a gorge thats out of sight?!</i> plus, have you never had a marine base rushed with lerks and skulks and gorges etc?? its chaos man.. it makes a huge difference in that fog of war, that there are three ways to cease our automatic spawning. <b>this option is not available to marines when in a hive.</b>
<i>"IP's and powernodes can always be rebuilt and CC's can always be placed instantly."
</i>
and you don't see the imbalance here between aliens and marines in this situation?? basic differences in requiring res, building etc in order to restore??
<!--quoteo(post=1903706:date=Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What i am against is making arguements with wrong premises and pointing out imbalances where they do not exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i would have preferred that you answered my question directly. i still do not see an argument against it, just your concern that we are focusing in the wrong area and that we should rely on players bettering themselves in lieu of what we suggest.. what harm would be done by making said changes??
<!--quoteo(post=1903706:date=Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 16 2012, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->8) Also, simply equalling the hp's of hives, CC's, IPs etc. or whatever groupings you want to do does not make the game balanced. This is ranged vs melee where teams have different damage outputs and damage potentials.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I/we never made that claim. I/we only make the claim that as it stands currently, there is an imbalance between the two. and i agree, the differences of ranged vs melee should be taken into account. should we find that by making proposed changes we encounter issues relating to this very difference, then i would obviously scrap them. but its hard to see how that is relevant in this particular case, every instance i can think of i can rebuttal myself.
great discussion? thanks for the in depth responses and i totally get your concerns, but believe you are considering immeasurable variables too much instead of the founding, basic, core asymmetry that can be measured on paper.
Personally I think that both hives and CCs should 'lock' power nodes, either by infesting them or by maybe electrifying them/permanently nanoshielding them, that way marines can't sneak structures into the hive, and aliens can't cheap shot the marine base.
I'd also suggest the same for res nodes, a res node in a hive room should be tougher than an outlying one.
This was my thought as well on fixing the liability of power nodes. In my experience the power nodes are too exposed to aliens. They mostly dont need to enter the base to take this out, making the marines base more vulnerable.
My idea was to make the IP react like the lighting in the area. When the node gets destroyed everything powers down for a few seconds, and then goes over to the emergency energysource. Just make the IP spawntime twice as long maybe? That would be in sync with the lighting dimming down a bit as well (but not disappearing completely)
This should atleast give the marines a fighting chance to regain control of their base after power has turned down (since there will be marines spawning in to assist)
lets say we have 2 more additional structures that aliens use.
these structures are always placed near the hive.
if the hive, or any of these 2 structures are destoyed, the aliens stop spawning.
have we now 'balanced' the game so that each team has an equivalent number of ways to stop spawning?
what impact does this change have to the game?
As far as the balance goes, marines typically can't expand without a team of top notch players. It seems an average 2:1 KDR is a baseline for a marine victory since spawn cycles are so important and aliens can zip right back to the same spot while marines must return to base, resupply, and run back to their precious RT only to be eaten by Mr. Skulk and his buddies. Meanwhile, the alien comm just plops down pustules and extractors overtaking the entire map. This leaves the marines bunched into a corner making the IPs, main Power Node, and Comm Chair EXTREMELY vulnerable.
So, I think the current win/loss ratio is a function of [marine expansion rate & mobility] vs. [alien expansion rate & mobility]. Maybe tracking data on 'Rez Nodes held @ time T' against simple 'KDR' would reveal something magical. Namely, marines try to expand, marines die with their RTs, and aliens just overtake the map. I think if this were fixed, then the whole "marines have so many ways to lose" issue would be almost forgotten.