Reducing combat "chaos"
Rokiyo
A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">From the Design Log</div>So Charlie put up a new note on the design log today: <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/139ySUrBsO0m0Z4ilq0YsDEHJLQhBa6RrIjJIsckL2kE/edit?hl=en&authkey=CLCo8Z0J&pli=1" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/139ySUrB...o8Z0J&pli=1</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-Charlie's Design Log+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charlie's Design Log)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Reducing combat “chaosâ€</b>
Playtested damage slowdown on all players in order to reduce the chaos of combat (mostly marines and skulks spinning around trying to hit each other). Tried many different types and decided on decreasing max speed by 20% if you’ve taken damage within the past second. It worked well for marines and skulks fighting, but it hurt lerk play - both taking damage and giving damage. How else could this be accomplished?
<ul><li>Damage scaling during the same time (pretty unintuitive)</li><li>Why wasn’t this a problem in NS1? I would say frame-rates but we’re quickly getting to the point where that’s not the issue.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm curious as to how many people here feel combat is chaotic, and if so: Why?
I believe the inaccurate soundscape (when it comes to sounds generated by the listening player) and rapid sound fall-off is currently a large contributor to this, and prior to this build the narrow vertical FoV on my 16:9 display was contributing as well (yay I can actually play a skulk without getting disoriented now!).
Not hearing your team-mates dying behind you, then dying without realising you were getting attacked or not being able to figure out where you were getting attacked from seems to be a primary suspect to me.
EDIT: There is already a discussion about the soundscape occuring <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116340" target="_blank">here</a>. This topic is more about the chaotic feel, and whether or not others think it exists.
<!--QuoteBegin-Charlie's Design Log+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charlie's Design Log)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Reducing combat “chaosâ€</b>
Playtested damage slowdown on all players in order to reduce the chaos of combat (mostly marines and skulks spinning around trying to hit each other). Tried many different types and decided on decreasing max speed by 20% if you’ve taken damage within the past second. It worked well for marines and skulks fighting, but it hurt lerk play - both taking damage and giving damage. How else could this be accomplished?
<ul><li>Damage scaling during the same time (pretty unintuitive)</li><li>Why wasn’t this a problem in NS1? I would say frame-rates but we’re quickly getting to the point where that’s not the issue.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm curious as to how many people here feel combat is chaotic, and if so: Why?
I believe the inaccurate soundscape (when it comes to sounds generated by the listening player) and rapid sound fall-off is currently a large contributor to this, and prior to this build the narrow vertical FoV on my 16:9 display was contributing as well (yay I can actually play a skulk without getting disoriented now!).
Not hearing your team-mates dying behind you, then dying without realising you were getting attacked or not being able to figure out where you were getting attacked from seems to be a primary suspect to me.
EDIT: There is already a discussion about the soundscape occuring <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116340" target="_blank">here</a>. This topic is more about the chaotic feel, and whether or not others think it exists.
Comments
An aside: I just played the Tribes: Ascend beta and combat is fast, furious, and chaotic. And it is GOOD.
The main problem in combat is still performance. Lets face it, as soon as there is a combat of more than 6 people in one room, the game is very jumpy. Of course that results in a chaotic combat. Fix that first, then we can talk about changes like slow down.
(I was referring this thread in my original post, though I should have perhaps linked it...)
An aside: I just played the Tribes: Ascend beta and combat is fast, furious, and chaotic. And it is GOOD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this. Combat definately should NOT be slowed down. There just needs to be more feedback on what's happening around you. If a marine and a skulk spin around trying to kill eachother, so what? It's an FPS, there is bound to be some crazy situations amidst combat. Slowing down a player when they are hit just seems like it would be more frustrating, suddenly losing the momentum you had and potentially missing your chance to kill, dragging out the fight even longer.
Indeed, I still shudder at the memories of those days... it felt like getting bombarded by lag more than anything (like how Marine bots root you to the ground with rifle spam)
Yeah a while back. I thought it was okay for marines (to stop them hopping around so much) but it sucked if you were a skulk. The instant you got tagged you were basically dead.
higher FOV anyone?
As for the chaotic combat, I think its partly because of inconsistent frame rates (I play on ATI 7970 and it still varies wildly in firefights) but also because of the unreliable hit reg especially as marine. A skulk chewing on a power node in a game yesterday, he didn't move as i unloaded 10 shots from my pistol into him (secondary fire mode with the laser). Blood came off every time and he ran off unscathed, no healing etc for him in the room and early game with no upgrades so he should have died. I've seen things mentioned in various threads now to do with the hit reg, which is more apparent now the client performs relatively well and people can play proper balanced games.
EDIT: And PLEASE no slow on hit. Would ruin combat imo.
Yes they did, and removed it the patch right after. Because it was a horrible failure.
This "chaos" is purely an issue with FPS, and maybe players/devs/playtesters aim?
The game should not get a change like slow on hit just because some people can't aim.
It screws up the entire balance of ranged vs melee, melee can't get close, they will just get slowed and killed.
If they implement this yet again, I will be very disappoint.
I dont find combat chaotic anymore. When I first started? ofc
Alien (Skulk) perspective: Confusion caused by marines' sporadic jumping animation, exacerbated by low FPS, as Marines suddenly "vanish" from view.
Marine perspective: Unrealistic movement animations (especially jumping), which causes Marines to develop the habit of (almost exploiting) jumping to confuse Skulks. Ironically, this jumping fit actually disrupts the other Marines' aim, as the jumper often blocks a lot of the bullets.
Once the jumping animation becomes more intuitive to read, the advantages of jumping will be gone, and so will the jumping circus shows.
PS. If I have to change anything else, it would be replacing the slow-after-jump Marine penalty with a TF2 style <u>reduced acceleration after jump</u>, so continuous jumping results in predictable linear motion.
+1!
most chaos comes from the skulk and the marine at point blank range not being able to keep track of each other, and if the alien gets that close i believe he deserves to get more than vanishings legs on his screen. not saying i want my jumping to be gimped as a marine, but surely theres a way to animate the legs not gaining such height or something to that effect?
Ditto.
for some reason i often lose track of skulks after rifle-butting them since a few versions, might be just bad luck though.
Both sides tend to blend into the colour scheme of the maps and are obscured by atmospherics and lighting to a large degree which can make it frustrating to play. I literally can't see them when my crosshair can be directly over them and I find myself completely falling back on the red crosshair hit feedback to track aliens. The worrying thing is I'm probably on the higher end of the scale with regards to skulk/marine gameplay due to the amount of hours I pulled in NS1.
As a skulk I have definitely had trouble tracking marines who are pretty much directly on top of me but just jumping left and right. It feels like a possible FoV thing?
In NS1 you generally had aliens keeping their distance somewhat, using the large environments because of their means of locomotion, fades and lerks flew around a lot, and skulks ran quite fast and bounced around everywhere, NS2 generallly doesn't have that, most of the fighting is more like what happens in NS1 when you accidentally turn a corner and run into a skulk coming the other way, because most of the time that's exactly what you do.
And i miss them
In NS1 you generally had aliens keeping their distance somewhat, using the large environments because of their means of locomotion, fades and lerks flew around a lot, and skulks ran quite fast and bounced around everywhere, NS2 generallly doesn't have that, most of the fighting is more like what happens in NS1 when you accidentally turn a corner and run into a skulk coming the other way, because most of the time that's exactly what you do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds completely wrong. All fighting in NS1 was either ambush or creating a chokepoint. It was all close range and cramped except for the ridiculously bad hive rooms like refinery on ns_bast. One thing there was a bit more of was high ceilings, but really the scale of each room on the NS2 maps seems about the same to me as NS1.
I will admit that on some NS2 maps (mineshaft is a big offender) it feels a lot more like the "nameless corridor fighting" that was supposed to have plagued NS1 than any of the good NS maps.
Alien (Skulk) perspective: Confusion caused by marines' sporadic jumping animation, exacerbated by low FPS, as Marines suddenly "vanish" from view.
Marine perspective: Unrealistic movement animations (especially jumping), which causes Marines to develop the habit of (almost exploiting) jumping to confuse Skulks. Ironically, this jumping fit actually disrupts the other Marines' aim, as the jumper often blocks a lot of the bullets.
Once the jumping animation becomes more intuitive to read, the advantages of jumping will be gone, and so will the jumping circus shows.
PS. If I have to change anything else, it would be replacing the slow-after-jump Marine penalty with a TF2 style <u>reduced acceleration after jump</u>, so continuous jumping results in predictable linear motion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>+1</b>
Very good point.
and I please too, NO SLOW ON HIT.
My point of view on 1 to 1 combat:
Skulk: wider FoV is better, and I would like to see more <b><u>tilt</u></b> on walls. I dont know why it was reduced (nausea for some players?) but for me it was helpfull in terms of orientation and sneeke ambushes (main purpose of Skulk according to UWE)
Marine: body movement animations feels not quite right. From waist down, it is like switching two pictures: "running legs" and "jumping legs".
EDIT
<b><u>Brainstorming idea:</u></b> Whatabout add just a little initial speed to marine, when he makes his one or two steps to the side. Somethink like dodge, but not so extensive?
Anyway. Great work UWE with NS2. I admire your work and NS2 developement is my life now.
Alien vision alleviates that issue, but same can't be said for the marines, who get even a worse visual read when you're with several teammates due to the atmospheric lighting.
Some kind of subtle glowing outline with aliens in close quarters (or when the alien is hurt) could help in my opinion. The lore reason being the helm visor highlighting them, with that cool cyan glow we all love.
There are some things in NS2 which make life harder..
The textures are very high res with a lot of detail this creates a lot of visual noise which makes it easy to loose targets in the enviroment..
The sound as others have mentioned..
Particular/atmospheric effects are a bit over the top currently they could use some toning down..
Framerate and lag are still MASSIVE problems until we hit a point where players get 60fps with 24 players fighting in one room at once with no choke you can't discount how much of an effect frame rate has...
Such as playing skulk and youre trying to bite a marine, it almost sounds like you can hear other skulks but really its just some kind of echo of your own bite, 1 in each left and right speaker but not at the same time. I find it a bit disorienting
I don't know why you would want to try the slow on hit again - skulk movement is basically the only way your ever going to kill that shotgunner marine for example. Its going to absolutely ruin higher 'skill levels'. I couldnt comment on how hard it is to get used to ns2 combat since its been so long, but after you do i think the problem becomes hit reg and collision detection instead of combat being too confusing... >_>.
I agree, when a skulk takes 3 shots from a shotgun and runs off, you are confused, and then angry.
Most players are perfectly capable of understanding that three skulks are rushing their front while a lurk is sniping them from above; the factor that causes confusion is how well the game is able to notify them of this.