Can we revisit infestation....
kabab
Join Date: 2003-12-15 Member: 24384Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-12-15 Member: 24384Members, Constellation
I'd like to propose a few changes to infestation because the current system I feel is really holding back alien gameplay and reducing how dynamic it was compared to NS1 not to mention its tedious and a bit counter intuitive..
Firstly I'd like to see a change where any alien structure can spread infestation and it doesn't need to be connect to a hive or be within a certain range..
The reason i want this is so aliens can create strategic foot holds early in the game in NS1 it was a popular tactic for a few aliens to go to say double res and build some defences early in the game <2:00min and basically defend this area for as long as possible, aliens would also use this same tactic's to secure a hive while they waited for the res to put it up.. It also allowed for aliens to create choke points in the map much more freely and to break bases sieges more reliably because they could build mini heal stations and defences near what ever area they where trying to take..
Currently with the system how it is we have this very linear front line tug of war which is okay but no where near as exciting as what NS1 offered and who can forget love shacks ^_^
I'm not saying remove pustals all together i think they still serve a purpose obviously to spread infestation to give aliens visibility on marine movements but i do think we should have the ability to allow the alien commander to evolve pustals to other buildings such as crags, shade, whips etc...
While the game is still in beta i really feel it would be a good time to try out some variations on the system we have now..
Firstly I'd like to see a change where any alien structure can spread infestation and it doesn't need to be connect to a hive or be within a certain range..
The reason i want this is so aliens can create strategic foot holds early in the game in NS1 it was a popular tactic for a few aliens to go to say double res and build some defences early in the game <2:00min and basically defend this area for as long as possible, aliens would also use this same tactic's to secure a hive while they waited for the res to put it up.. It also allowed for aliens to create choke points in the map much more freely and to break bases sieges more reliably because they could build mini heal stations and defences near what ever area they where trying to take..
Currently with the system how it is we have this very linear front line tug of war which is okay but no where near as exciting as what NS1 offered and who can forget love shacks ^_^
I'm not saying remove pustals all together i think they still serve a purpose obviously to spread infestation to give aliens visibility on marine movements but i do think we should have the ability to allow the alien commander to evolve pustals to other buildings such as crags, shade, whips etc...
While the game is still in beta i really feel it would be a good time to try out some variations on the system we have now..
Comments
Dynamic Infestation Tool Video: <a href="http://youtu.be/YDXxkuenaow" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/YDXxkuenaow</a>
My 2 cents would be to add a mini crag or similar structure to gorges that acts as a source of infestation.
Dynamic Infestation Tool Video: <a href="http://youtu.be/YDXxkuenaow" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/YDXxkuenaow</a>
My 2 cents would be to add a mini crag or similar structure to gorges that acts as a source of infestation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Adding a mini crag would be nice but the core issue in my eyes is aliens can only expand at the rate the alien commander can place pustals this was never the case in NS1.
^
I recall that cysts were only added so that marines without flamethrowers could push infestation back, so in a way, we could treat that as separate to the infestation/building mechanic. I'm not a huge fan of the fact that you can only build on infestation... since it is, very much, not dynamic.
So, should we be able to build off infestation?
Or, else, how can we easily extend the infestation network?
One thing that comes to mind is letting Harvesters act as network "hubs", not just Hives.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> <b>Infestation:</b> Revisit me.
<b>Unknown worlds:</b> Later...<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Now to add to the actual discussion-
I for one am not a big fan of infestation and even though aliens have most wins (They are OP that is why, fps affects marines more than aliens but I guess you are waiting until it comes better to see how much that actually affects their win/loss rate) they have a lack of expanding ability and if the game was balanced then they would most likely lose just because it takes ages to spread around and get structures. Another solution is required but I have no idea what...
If Tier 1 was balanced with Tier 1 and it took longer to get tiers up then they would probably lose. Aliens instant win when they have fades (kind of).
Tbh, most of the gameplay is at Tier 2 and there is barely any time spent at Tier 1/Tier 3 unless they really choose to get there but it is kind of useless as the onos doesn't really affect gameplay.
I would like the old "Command station upgrades" back because that made it much better and made the games last longer in the beginning of the rounds.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> <b>Infestation:</b> Revisit me.
<b>Unknown worlds:</b> Later...<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Now to add to the actual discussion-
I for one am not a big fan of infestation and even though aliens have most wins (They are OP that is why, fps affects marines more than aliens but I guess you are waiting until it comes better to see how much that actually affects their win/loss rate) they have a lack of expanding ability and if the game was balanced then they would most likely lose just because it takes ages to spread around and get structures. Another solution is required but I have no idea what...
If Tier 1 was balanced with Tier 1 and it took longer to get tiers up then they would probably lose. Aliens instant win when they have fades (kind of).
Tbh, most of the gameplay is at Tier 2 and there is barely any time spent at Tier 1/Tier 3 unless they really choose to get there but it is kind of useless as the onos doesn't really affect gameplay.
I would like the old "Command station upgrades" back because that made it much better and made the games last longer in the beginning of the rounds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would not say the aliens are overpowered
Its more the marines relies on having a good commander more than the aliens do
In general public games the commander could be a first time player so that will greatly affect the win loss
I feel that the game should be balanced around a good 6v6 team
Add in more players say 10v10 for public games this will give a little edge to the marines since the aliens have a limited spawn rate
Also you would have more clusters of players which is good for the marines
I agree with what psiwarp said as well
<ul><li> make Extractors to infestation hubs</li><li> or just make all kham-buildings to infestation hubs</li></ul>
This way it's more dynamic and the marines can't kill a whole healing-station just by disconnecting it by killing one or two cysts.
The gorges would still need to place cysts for the hydras.
Having read this, another implication comes to mind:
Should marines be able to cut off a whole patch of infestation, and therefore all the buildings on it?
By making every building a hub, it means you remove that ability. This could be a good or bad thing.
So, current considerations (can you think of any others?):
1. Should aliens be able to build outside of infestation? (will increase dynamics)
2. Should aliens be able to easily extend the infestation network? (will increase dynamics)
3. Should marines be able to cut off a whole patch of infestation, and therefore all the buildings on it? (will make it easier for marines to claim territory)
4. Should non-flamethrower marines be able to push back infestation? (will make it easier for marines to claim territory, especially in the early game)
-> And if so, how?*
With the current implementation, the answers to those questions are:
1. No.
2. No. Tied to cysts (i.e. hive energy), and the hive hubs.
3. Yes. Cyst network (any infestation not connected to hubs (hives) will die).
4. Yes. Cysts that players can attack, and infestation is supported by cysts, and buildings can only survive on infestation.
I don't like the current tug of war mechanic, and I would like infestation to be more dynamic.
infestation should slow marines more, like 50% or more (i would choose 60%), in fact make it eat away their armor too (jet packs would just fly over it)
to counter this boost, make hives cost 100 res and increase the build time by a minute or two
and make cysts cost res
make alien structures have their own infestation
get away from heavy drifter use and make alien structures be able to grow out of the infestation (except for harvesters and hives)
give the gorge a mini crag
give gorge web (but make it an infestation string/web, so it connects with infestation at both ends, and make it cost 2 res or something)
move bile bomb to 3rd hive ability
give gorge umbra spray as 2nd hive ability
and gorge needs a build menu (hyda, mini crag, mini cyst, infestation web)
Charlie talked about adding benefits for reinforced infestation. I think the infestation should have 2 tiers, but the tiers need to be visually identifiable.
Tier 1:
Very thin infestation similar to current design.
Tier 2:
3x or 4x as thick as tier1 infestation.
Infestation abilities:
1. Grants hive sight (already implemented.)
2. Tier1: slow down marine speed by 5%. Tier2: Slow down marine speed by 15% (numbers will change subject to balancing.)
3. Tier1 infestation no effect on ARC speed. Tier2 slows down ARC by 25%.
4. Have the Kham able to stretch infestation to cover lights. Tier 1 infestation dims lights by only 30% since it is so thin. Thicker tier 2 infestation dims lights by 90%.
5. Infestation can mold over marine structures to shut them off.
6. If marine dies on the outskirts of infestation, the infestation grows a little more. If marine dies deep in the infestation nothing happens.
7. Kham has the ability to retreat infestation in one area, in favor of expanding in another area.
New Infestation implementation:
Instead of a cyst which grows infestation concentrically, the ends of the infestation would have vertices which the Kham could pull off into different directions. If he pulls multiple vertices at the same time, he creates a plane of infestation but only short distances. If he pulls one vertex, he stretches part of the infestation much further. This allows you to build small reinforced loops in a single room by stretching individual vertices multiple times. This would create small tier2 infestation patches within a single room. It also allows you to stretch an infestation vine across multiple rooms to expand further at the cost of a “weak†link.
The infestation would mold over marine structures to power them off. In addition the infestation could be stretched to black out lights. This has the same effect as power nodes, and is very intuitive to understand. If infestation blocks a light—there is no light. If infestation covers a marine structure—it stops working. This means you could remove the power node mechanic since the new infestation can create the same effect. This also eliminates the need of biting/repairing nodes which is perhaps the least fun aspect of the game. This allows marines to be more mobile setting up forward phase gates locations if no power nodes were required—speeding up the game.
Stretching infestation vertices means cysts are no longer in the game so there needs to be a new way of destroying infestation besides flamethrowers. I think there are many ways of doing this. For example, give mines an alternate attack that sprays fire in a circle around it like a firework spinner to clear patches of infestation. Give the axe a secondary ability to rip up narrow infestation vines, like a hoe, if they are within reach. And now that the flamethrower can light walls and floors on fire, if the floor is burning infestation is not allowed to expand until the flames disappear. The game is far enough into development that it would be easy to create multiple ways to destroy infestation without solely relying on cysts.
Additionally the Kham can slowly retract infestation in one area in favor of slowly expanding it in another location. This gives infestation some “intelligence†and allows the Kharaa to dynamically change map control as the game progresses. It would open new strategies like allow the Kham to do a strong “infestation†push toward marine base during the late game by retracting infestation near the Kharaa base.
Summary:
Stretching infestation through vertices allows more personality and choice to the Kham. The infestation would look more visually diverse with some rooms having narrow infestation vines snaking off, while other areas would have thick patches. The rooms would look more diverse because half the rooms lights could be infested and dark, but the other half with working lights. Currently with power nodes, lights are either all on, or all off. If infestation can block lights there can be many permutations of a lit/dark room.
The Kham would be a gardener by deciding to grow infestation thick and short, or long and narrow. He would decide to grow infestation on ceilings to link multiple rooms rather than on the floor making it harder for marines to destroy it, but at the same time losing the benefit of hive sight and slowing down marine walking speed. When infesting a new room, he would choose to stretch infestation to cover the lights first, or place thick patches down to buff aliens and slow marines. The Kham would target and mold over marine structures to power them down, and choose strategic areas to grow tier 2 infestation. Finally, the Kham could retract infestation in one area in favor of strengthening it in another area as map control changes during the game. Picture how cinematic it would be if you were a marine in a room, and the light slowly dimmed as infestation crept over it.
I also think the infestation will be more interesting if certain lifeforms had infestation only abilities.
Lifeform abilities on infestation:
1. Gorge infestation ability: Ensare. The gorge shoots projectile like bile bomb, upon landing on infestation it causes the green slime to shoot out perpendicular to its surface (like a geyser) ensaring the marine for a short duration.
a. Floor: When the gorge spits on the floor, the infestation reaches up and ensares the marine’s feet and shins. Marine can see and shoot but cannot move for 1 second.
b. Wall: Infestation reaches out from wall covering the marines torso and gun. Marine cannot move or shoot. Lasts for 2 seconds or this infestation tendril can be cut by another marines axe easily.
c. Ceiling: Infestation reaches down from the ceiling covering marines head and shoulders and lifts the marine so he’s hanging in the air. Marine can shoot but cannot see or move. Teammate can shoot tendril to free marine or wait for duration to end. Lasts for 3 seconds.
This makes infestation placement more interesting because ensare has different effects depending if infestation tendril comes out from the floor, wall, or ceiling. This ensare could also temporarily stop a jetpacker from flying away. If ensare is used on tier 2 infestation the duration of the ensare is +1 second longer, and takes more bullets or axe swings to free a marine. On tier 2 infestation the tendril that comes out is wider making it easier to hit a marine.
Last night I just had a great round of NS2 and thought to myself how good the game is becoming, but it also made me a little sad about aliens and structures. Aliens dont just build small strongholds into the map - they are nowhere to be seen. In NS1, the marines would advance to some spot in the map and suddenly face a wall of Offense Chambers backed up by some Defense Chambers and you really had to fight your way through that. It was a surprise every time because the gorges always tried out new tactics and locations to be more and more effective and it was always an interesting battle.
Now today, in NS2, you only see defenses at the hive. As a marine I can almost be certain that I can run around everywhere in the map and there is nearly no structure that would prevent me from going any further. Only when I enter a hive location I have to watch out for hydras.... and to be honest, that predictability makes it boring for Marines and the Aliens too.
I would really like to see small alien-fortresses througout the map, right now the gameplay does not really support that, but the game would be much better and dynamic. Even if it means to discard some of the development steps taken so far, I feel this would be a step in the right direction. I sense that many people would appreciate it. At the end of the day, the quality of the gameplay is what counts.
Not incredibly familiar with the balance of the game myself, just chiming in about my dislike with the current implementation.
Cysts were added just to give the marines something to kill with normal weapons so the could get rid of infestation. To make sure you had to work with the map, the cysts had to be able to "reach" a hive or another connected cyst, first by modified LOS, then (when pathing started to work) by walking a path.
And ... that's pretty much it.
So don't look for deeper thought about how the current stuff works. Cause there isn't much. It's definitely a WIP.
Cysts were added just to give the marines something to kill with normal weapons so the could get rid of infestation. To make sure you had to work with the map, the cysts had to be able to "reach" a hive or another connected cyst, first by modified LOS, then (when pathing started to work) by walking a path.
And ... that's pretty much it.
So don't look for deeper thought about how the current stuff works. Cause there isn't much. It's definitely a WIP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if its still a wip then this is a perfect time to discuss how it could be improved :D
totally, here is my personal idea about infestation, you might recognize similarities to another game :)
- cysts can only be build on infestation
- Harvesters and Hives create initial infestation on which you can build cysts to spread it further
- cyst cost is much higher (~50 energy?) but they work like creep tumors in SC2: you drop one and it has the ability to
generate one more cyst (after it charged some energy) -> more hives -> more energy -> faster infestation spread
- cysts don't need to be connected, but buildings off infestation will die like they do now
- we can reuse the current models: glowing cyst means it is able to create another cyst, used cysts are grey (marines will know which cyst to kill). to preserve the atmosphere we could improve the general appearance of infestation itself (add glowing veins?)
i think that would simplify how infestation works (i bet new players don't understand at first that cysts need to be connected) but also adds much more dynamic to alien play, without sacrificing any importance of infestation. To prevent too many cysts from being spammed, we need to a) make the cyst (and drifter?) energy costs pretty high and b) add more abilities for the alien commander which use hive energy (which are crucial for the game), which you want to use instead of spamming cysts after you control enough territory to support your troops/structures etc. that will also to some degree solve the problem of being stuck on 1 hive and not being able to spread infestation: you just create a Harvester, save up some hive energy for 2 cysts and spread from there.
what do you think?
+1 :)
why?
I think this is the best option on what to do about infestation, if it is going to be changed.
If all the buildings gave infestation, cysts would be almost useless.
On the other hand I do think it's good that aliens are limited in where they can early expand. The ability to get a room right next to marine start lamed up in the first minute seems like it would add to the rushing problems we have already. Also being able to drop extractors anywhere would mean aliens could almost instantly drop 4 or more rts (I guess hive energy or starting team res/drifters could be changed, the current hive energy model feels a bit borked anyway..)
Well, relatively. It's still pretty simple with your suggestion.
But I really don't think anyone has any trouble understanding that cysts need to be connected in a string-of-beads-like fashion.