<!--quoteo(post=1898244:date=Jan 30 2012, 05:35 PM:name=BuzterOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BuzterOne @ Jan 30 2012, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898244"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont agree with you. I play public all the time and my fps is 50-70 ( same as bf3 ) Hitbox works fine for me even with the 170ping & the power nodes takes over +45sec ( as a solo skulk ) to destroy. If the marines leave the power node unprotected its their own fault. The maps are avarage "balanced". Some rooms are opend/big and some rooms are tiny.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 i dont belive you (are you sure your not getting 50 fps then it drops alot late game when theres 100 + structures built by com/s gorges ect)
2 post your computers specs
3 videos or it didnt happen
everyone i know who has ridiculous systems has trouble running this game -
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
but map or power node memorization isn't something that is easy and quick for a new player, obviously. So, what, the veterans always win because they know something a new player couldn't possibly? Big picture core game play mechanics required for success must remain easy to understand and easily accessible to all - otherwise you've repeated one of the few failures of NS1: the skill gap for new players.
Remember this game will eventually be on the store page of steam.
I dont see how finding powernodes is not "easy to understand" and "easily accessible" unless your braindead. Their like there, in the map, in your room, powering your buildings... How is this some super veteran trade sekrat?
You can't possibly be arguing that the game must be simplified so that even blind people have an equal chance. Like what?
I think if it's something you have to learn once, and that anyone can do it if they're familiar with the concept of a map, it's not too hard.
I think it just *seems* challenging because it isn't done for you automatically by the game.
My original point still stands, too - communicating which areas are under attack is the role of the commander and teammates. Each individual player should not always get full information from just their map/local environment.
There's a compromise, though - you just label the power nodes on the map. After all, res nodes and all marine buildings are labelled for you as a marines player. Power nodes are also in the same place all the time no matter what. I don't see a problem with doing this.
<!--quoteo(post=1898499:date=Jan 31 2012, 07:04 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jan 31 2012, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but map or power node memorization isn't something that is easy and quick for a new player, obviously. So, what, the veterans always win because they know something a new player couldn't possibly? Big picture core game play mechanics required for success must remain easy to understand and easily accessible to all - otherwise you've repeated one of the few failures of NS1: the skill gap for new players.
Remember this game will eventually be on the store page of steam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With the depth that NS2 promises with the full game, a tutorial is going to be absolutely necessary. Dumbing down of core gameplay mechanics should not be considered. Gameplay depth is essential to evolving the 'metagame,' giving longevity to a game. For those that played NS, DC was ALWAYS the first chamber (unless some gimmicky strat was being used), with MC as second, and SC as third. I forget which version changed this, but it became MC first, then SC, and then DC. With patches, UWE heavy-handedly changed strategy. What I hope to see, is that the game will change every few months as players get better, understand the game better, and generally just 'figure stuff out." It would be so great to see a lower level team beat a higher level team due to superior strategy. It would be EVEN BETTER to see two evenly matched teams play with the superior strategy getting the win. I desperately hope that the game isn't constructed so that it is figured out within the first two months of release.
As long as each mechanic/feature is clearly explained and how they relate to each other, I don't see a problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1898499:date=Feb 1 2012, 01:04 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 1 2012, 01:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but map or power node memorization isn't something that is easy and quick for a new player, obviously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why I like to mention a lot that Power Nodes should be visible on your mini-map, which it currently isn't.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited January 2012
as Smaug just indicated, up until the last patch which introduced the onscreen hints, the only way of knowing where a powernode is came from either a) wasting time by searching all over the area [difficult for a new player in say, atrium] b) knowing where the powernode is from experience.
playing on the new Turtle map the other day reinforced this reality for me.
"I think if it's something you have to learn once"
you're going to tell me the fist time you played summit you remembered where each powernode was the next time you played it??
" communicating which areas are under attack is the role of the commander and teammates. Each individual player should not always get full information from just their map/local environment. "
i agree communication is key, but expecting even the average comm (<b>IF </b>he even has a mic) to communicate to each individual the location of a specific item (power node) per room.... is <u>asinine</u>. Additional hints/tutorials/HUD/features are the method to communicate such basic gameplay mechanics. the commander has far better things to do than micromanage at that level, remember that he is responsible for strategy, not holding hands. Thats why the on screen additions lately have been amazing, communication is still occurring, but veterans are able to get to that power node just as easily as a n00b with waypoints and the "press E to repair" stuff.
"brute force in the form of game changes" is required to hold the hands of new players. try sitting down one of your friends thats never played NS2 before... <b>dont say a word</b> and see how well they comprehend everything going on as a marine.
Tremann, i agree except that core gameplay mechanics must remain easy and accessible to new players, gaming depth is not inhibited at all by this, as having the meta game of everything else creates that experience. <b>example</b>: capturing a flag is easy and obvious, but picking up the items on the ground in specific spots, on the way to the flag, give you the advantage and create depth for the game. if the flag capturing required a skill based meta game that was on par with item hoarding (watch fatal1ty) you would be denying a large amount of players that experience that the game was meant to give to <i>everyone</i>, not just the experienced.
<!--quoteo(post=1898404:date=Jan 31 2012, 10:38 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jan 31 2012, 10:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898404"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but arguing that powernodes are bad <b>simply because</b> they don't have a directly comparable unit in chess isn't very strong imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow. Just wow. You have missed the point <b>entirely</b>. The point of the analogy was: - CCs in NS, like Kings in Chess, are the objective - "taking" the piece wins the game. However, the King does have some ability to move and some ability to attack, and this remains rather analogous to the CC. Also, there is only one King, that is, one objective (this is still analogous to NS because the -last- CC is the true King piece). - Power nodes, however, are similar to the CC in that taking them wins you the game, but in a game of chess they would represent a <b>trash piece</b> that no one would ever want because the piece cannot attack, and neither can it move. There would also be multiple of them around the board and you would have to keep every single one, because losing a certain one would automatically lose you the game.
Simply put, the King is a good part of a good game's (Chess) design, while the Power Node is a bad part of an otherwise good game's (NS) design, and this becomes obvious when you apply the analogy (that's why analogies exist and why people use them). I'm inviting you to imagine playing a game of chess with pieces comparable to the power nodes. Does such a game sound fun to you?
It has nothing to do with the fact that power nodes don't exist in Chess (obviously). I can't even imagine what train of thought led you to that conclusion about the analogy.
The power nodes, as they are, are simply a bad idea.
I would suggest any UWE employees reading this thread to remember that just because a relative majority of people are complaining doesn't mean it's the common opinion. Those who don't want drastic changes in these regards simply aren't the ones showing up in forums. I'll amend this post with some more constructive thoughts when I wake up, too tired for this now.
<!--quoteo(post=1898538:date=Feb 1 2012, 06:39 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 1 2012, 06:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow. Just wow. You have missed the point <b>entirely</b>. The point of the analogy was: ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> :s. no i dont believe i have missed the point. You ask whether playing a game of chess with powernode type units would be fun. Probably not for whatever reason that is specific to the design goals and rule sets of chess. This has nothing to do with NS2.
My point is I didnt think it was very plausible to draw an analogy between two different game sets by saying that because x is better without powernode type units, y must also be better without them. Does chess have sentries? Does chess have lighting effects? (Nevermind the fact that you still need to kill the CC after you kill the powernode to fulfill the win objective just as you might kill a players strategically placed pieces in order to take the King).
And really, this is your arguement. A piece that cannot attack nor move is trash Powernodes cannot attack nor move <b>Therefore Powernodes are trash</b>
I could also say the following with your premise. CC's cannot attack nor move. They don't and i have no idea where your getting this idea that they can. <b>Therefore CC's are trash</b>
"Power nodes, however, are similar to the CC in that taking them wins you the game, but in a game of chess they would represent a trash piece that no one would ever want because the piece cannot attack, and neither can it move. There would also be multiple of them around the board and you would have to keep every single one, because losing a certain one would automatically lose you the game."
I don't understand the idea that losing a single powernode out of all the powernodes in the map will lose the game automatically
The only one that will probably lead to a defeat is the powernode in the main base
btw..
Having multiple positions to defend is a GOOD thing.
In fact, have more and more places you need to defend (risk) for building more and more res nodes (reward) is a very important part of RTS games
The only argument I have against powernodes and building in general is the amount of time being wasted press 'e', as the FPS fanatics have pointed out :p
As a long time student of chess I can say that that analogy is terrible and does nothing but confuse this conversation. I would advise abandoning it.
The only thing wrong with power nodes is the lack of priority given to them by the marine team when setting up defenses. Once players learn how valuable the nodes are they will spend the 15 pres to drop some mines around them and take the time to keep them repaired. That's really all the defense you need for a res power node. On a hive node you can splurge on a turret or two in addition to the mines.
If nobody is paying any attention to the weak points in your defense your team is screwed. The same thing happens to the alien team when marines kill cyst chains and the commander/gorges don't notice that half of their structures are disconnected and dying.
The 2 things that marines need first, before anything else. Is defineletely fair spawntimes with aliens and WELDERS! This will already help a lot on the balancing.
<!--quoteo(post=1898538:date=Feb 1 2012, 02:39 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 1 2012, 02:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The power nodes, as they are, are simply a bad idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems like most people agree powernodes are an unfair disadvantage do nothing but hinder one side
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
ehh.. i wouldnt go so far as to say "most" people, i count 5 posts out of the 46 posts, thats 11%. but even then thats 11% of those that are actively posting in this thread, not even pooling from the large number that purchased the game.
i think additional attention needs to be paid to many areas still in this game regarding balance - and this is an ongoing process as the developers have stated many times, and it is not in it's final stage of adjustment, features are constantly being added in. so calling for them to be removed before attempting to balance them is a bit pre emptive and possibly unnecessary. i do get the reason for your point though, but as others have said its part of the territorial tug of war, equaled by infestation.
(i remember back in alpha days where people screamed about how handicapped aliens were because infestation was required to build but power nodes were already present / on. they somewhat fixed this with having neutral zones now... so just give it some more time and constructive feedback :-] )
<!--quoteo(post=1898563:date=Feb 1 2012, 06:57 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 1 2012, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And really, this is your arguement. A piece that cannot attack nor move is trash Powernodes cannot attack nor move <b>Therefore Powernodes are trash</b>
I could also say the following with your premise. CC's cannot attack nor move. They don't and i have no idea where your getting this idea that they can. <b>Therefore CC's are trash</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <u>No.</u>
I'll try <i>one more time</i>. Hopefully you'll get it this time.
Power nodes are a <b>critical piece</b> that cannot "attack" or "move".
CCs are a <b>critical piece</b> with a <b>limited</b> ability to "attack" and "move".
These are <b>critical pieces</b> because taking them wins the game.
I think you're taking this <b>analogy</b> far too literally : the CC has the ability to "attack" and "move" in the sense that it serves other purposes, it unlocks, it directs, it serves multiple functions (you could in fact take it literally when you consider that the commander can leave the CC to defend, and sometimes does); the power node on the other hand has literally no ability and serves no other purpose than to act as a weak point.
If it is going to be a weak point, it <b>cannot be critical</b>.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2012
its ability is to power the structures much like infestation?
also, don't be so elitist to other people man. have you considered that the rest of the world doesn't have comprehension problems, but instead harimau has communication problems? its worth consideration when you are frustrated with others.
<!--quoteo(post=1898567:date=Feb 1 2012, 07:58 PM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Feb 1 2012, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Power nodes, however, are similar to the CC in that taking them wins you the game, but in a game of chess they would represent a trash piece that no one would ever want because the piece cannot attack, and neither can it move. There would also be multiple of them around the board and you would have to keep every single one, because losing a <b><u><i>certain</i></u></b> one would automatically lose you the game."
I don't understand the idea that losing a single powernode out of all the powernodes in the map will lose the game automatically<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b><u><i>certain</i></u></b> Admittedly, it was an exaggeration to say you would have to keep every single one, but which power node depends on which power nodes are tied to bases. You lose that piece, you lose the base, you lost a significant part of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1898759:date=Feb 2 2012, 11:30 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 2 2012, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its ability is to power the structures much like infestation?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong. Its ability is to unpower the structures, and that ability belongs to the aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1898759:date=Feb 2 2012, 11:30 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 2 2012, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->also, don't be so elitist to other people man.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The word is condescending, not elitist.
:)
<!--quoteo(post=1898759:date=Feb 2 2012, 11:30 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 2 2012, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->have you considered that the rest of the world doesn't have comprehension problems, but instead harimau has communication problems? its worth consideration when you are frustrated with others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would certainly be the case if <b>no one</b> understood the analogy.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
wrong. thats its downside/trade off. just because you confused them doesn't change their purpose. (see what i did there? i'm trying this condescending thing out.) but even if you were somehow right, then that same ability still relates to infestation. its hard to attack one form of territory control without attacking it's intended equal.
"That would certainly be the case if no one understood the analogy. " wrong again. :) all that is needed for harimau to fail at communicating is just that. no conditional statement of majority of minority was put in place. you either are successful or not. even if you were to use the majority vote as your rule of thumb you have no way of gathering that info. so its probably just safe to assume when someone doesnt understand that it was your lack of communicating in a means which is successful. (which may or may not include elitist behavior / condescending or impatient responses ) :-D
that was so much useless semantic tennis that we need to get back on topic: power nodes are working as intended for the most part and oh yea... BETA. anymore constructive ideas?
1. Every single point from the TO is TRUE. (at least i agree on every point)
2. the powernode discussion <u>Note: there might be some way to make it work, but the current mechanic is bad.</u>
<b><u>Powernode:</u></b>
Marines can in theory build everywhere except infestation(not really true, commandstations require techpoints in ns2), but require power from a powernode. PN power structures in a room, if destroyed every structure in this room is unpowered => they dont work anymore and you have a very big chance to lose them.(because aliens now only have to deal with players, while the structures are not destroyed - they dont work until power is up again. so its a kinda a destroy everything mechanic but only for a limited time in a worse case scenario) Powernodes are at a fixed position in each room - you cant just drop it it needs interaction with your units(players) until it operates/ or operates again (if destroyed), usually placed in an alien friendly way. (e.g. summit old marine start, there is a corner and gorges can bilebomb, but also have a chance to dodge behind the corner while other lifeforms protect them from incoming marines)
Downsides: Units need to build and repair it actively. If destroyed everything in a room is unpowered. (no sentry defences, phasegates, armorys etc. will work anymore) 1 single structure per room, while it has a good amount of health its still only one structure that needs to be focused.
Upsides: ?
<b><u>Infestation:</u></b>
Aliens can only build on infestation. Infestation doesnt really power structures, its a requirement to build them - if destroyed the structure will still work, but very slowly lose health until it either dies, or the cyst chain is up again. Infestation doesnt require units to actively interact with it. But units have the ability to do so, besides the commander.
Downsides: Since cysts cost energy, it limits aliens to spread out fast in the beginning of a game. (but thats why aliens can switch lifeforms to gorge, and assist the commander in reaching positions) Cysts are relative weak Aliens can only build on infestation.
Upsides: Slows down marines: - movement speed is slower(at least sprint) - marines have limited amounts of ammunition and have to reload so in case marines attack infestation they go low on ammo, which means the commander has to spend pres to give them ammo back - its a good opportunity to attack as aliens, because attacking while some marines are reloading has a higher chance of success. (so besides static defenses infestation is a good distraction and can buy you time) - because infestation doesnt require units, at least commanders can place it everywhere (ok not really everywhere, they need to build a chain, but there is usually a chain at position you need to care about, where marines might want to build something etc) - preventing or limiting marines to build in a key position until reinforcements arrive.
Makes marines visible: marines that ignore cysts, are still visible for the whole alien team - even the direction in which marines are looking is visible on the minimap. Can get rid of mines, or distract sentry turrets, arcs?. It is cheap. 2pres(+10 for the lifeform) or energy. (the longer a game progresses the less it is limiting you, in addition you have gorges) Units can build and heal it actively, but in case they cant its not as big of a deal to lose them. Cysts come in big amounts, and because they are cheap they are easily replaced (while 1lmg mag doesnt seem much to kill, after 4-5 pustules a marine is out of primary ammo(and he spent a lot time doing this + gave out his position), if you attack with axe you will destroy less cysts and aliens have more time to get to you + there is the weapon switch delay) You dont need ground units to repair it, you usually can just replace it with magic from the sky. Because ammo is an issue marines tend to ignore pustules most of the time. (marine comms are limited by pres) ...
<b><u>So what do we know now?</u></b>
The only point of powernodes is to be a downside for marines, so aliens have an alternative way to get rid of marine bases. And it slows down marines, because they first have to clear a room from infestation, then secure the powernode / build or rebuild it while also building important structures in a room. Also powernodes are not interessting targets for aliens except if they are close to a hive, or inside the marine base. (sure you kill them sometimes to setup an ambush for marines, or just because its the most productive thing to do atm until alien reinforcements are here) While infestation is a bit similar in some points its totally different, downsides are really weak(and with additional hives + gorges, not really existent anymore), and lots of upsides.
<!--quoteo(post=1898766:date=Feb 2 2012, 04:05 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 2 2012, 04:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->most part and oh yea... BETA.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I feel this is starting to get outdated now. All kinds of testing and revising are still necessary of course, but if they really want to release this year they better start nailing down the bigger pieces of the overall plan pretty soon. You probably can't go "Oh no, that doesn't work after all" on more than a few things 6 months from now anymore - not at least if they want to get a polished and tested game out before the giants take over the christmas market and steal all the attention.
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<!--quoteo(post=1898542:date=Feb 1 2012, 09:01 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Feb 1 2012, 09:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would suggest any UWE employees reading this thread to remember that just because a relative majority of people are complaining doesn't mean it's the common opinion. Those who don't want drastic changes in these regards simply aren't the ones showing up in forums. I'll amend this post with some more constructive thoughts when I wake up, too tired for this now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you joking? The overwhelming majority of posters both in this thread and on the board as a whole are fawning fanboys that will defend every decision made by the devs no matter how bad it actually is. I know several people who simply don't want to post here anymore, even though they'd provide valuable feedback if they did, because the minute they try to suggest that <x> feature is not such a great idea after all, they get shot down by the swarm of clueless forumites (usually not even bothering to consider what was actually posted).
<!--quoteo(post=1898567:date=Feb 1 2012, 12:58 PM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Feb 1 2012, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having multiple positions to defend is a GOOD thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We already have this. They're called resource towers, command stations, and phase gates.
I'm just sick of the power-grid system now and I can't think of anything it provides without being reminded of what it detracts.
<i>The developers want asymmetry. </i> What would be truly asymmetric is not having both teams rely on X in order to expand.
<i>The developers want a smaller learning curve. </i> What would truly make entry-level requirements low would be to abolish the convoluted grid system (and pres.. and damage types..). It might be intuitive enough but do you know what's more intuitive? Dropping structures wherever I want. This ethos has not been achieved at all, certainly not in any strategic sense. What I have seen is a dumbing down on movement mechanics which is an absolute crying shame in my view.
<i>The developers want variety.</i> The grid system kills variety <b>dead</b>. Every game now revolves around taking a room, securing it, blah blah. It's the same rooms all the time too and in order to secure them, i'm severely limited by where the power-node is positioned because it's a huge weak point. Other threads have <b>unanimously</b> indicated how limiting it is for certain structures, notably the phasegates. The work-around? Introduce more confusing rules/structure/abilities.
<i>The developers want the game to be fun(?).</i> Eating power-nodes is boring. Defending them is boring. Losing to cheese is boring. I don't get the defence really. Who finds it fun? The commanders? Surely not, because they're the ones whose creativity is being obliterated by grid handicaps. The marines? Can't be, because it only represents a weakness and staring at the wall doesn't float any boats. Aliens then? Maybe they like the low-risk, high-reward, cheese strategy that cripples bases. That is to say, only when its possible, because in the vast majority of cases, it's a boring wall-stare coupled with the not uncommon instant death. When this happens, my effort has often literally been wasted when I could have invested the time in something more entertaining, like cutting myself for instance.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1898897:date=Feb 2 2012, 10:37 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Feb 2 2012, 10:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm just sick of the power-grid system now and I can't think of anything it provides without being reminded of what it detracts.
<i>The developers want asymmetry. </i> What would be truly asymmetric is not having both teams rely on X in order to expand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
asymmetry is either. not having both teams rely on x or not having both teams rely on x ... ? you didnt have an explanation for the statement of "devs want asymmetry" you just stated what you think asymmetry is in one scenario? am i missing something?
"Every game now revolves around taking a room, securing it, blah blah."
this would happen with or without a powergrid.. its the territory control, one of the elements that makes it like an RTS?...
"Who finds it fun?"
i think at this point i have to assume you are just attempting to represent other players with your own opinion inaccurately and that the only purpose of your post was to express your disapproval of certain decisions that you haven't actually elaborated on short of abolishing the majority of the features of the game in one fell swoop. chomping at a structure or a power node is the same to me as a skulk and i really dont see the big difference in an actual gameplay point of view. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116113&st=0" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...116113&st=0</a> but hey, i know you'll just say "fan boy".. which is the same as saying i like the game currently... whats your reason for playing?
on that note i believe Koruyo did a great job explaining in detail his argument, and i have to say after reading his well thought out points provided with facts, he has led me to believe that there may be serious issues with powernodes (that still can easily be fixed, mind you by a multitude of ways, one being buffs) and i am open to testing out an NS2 without powernodes as long as infestation is balanced in such a way that aliens arent too handicapped.
What you're missing is that the power-grid system is a crude alternative to the infestation system. It's the same principle (X in order to build), just dressed up differently and riddled with limitations.
Securing rooms wouldn't be nearly as important if it didn't power up rooms and make them actually possible to pass through. Rooms should be secured because they are strategic locations, not simply because you have to secure it if you want the... lights to be on.
The fun thing is personal and admittedly, I got a bit scathing. There is a difference with killing structures, though, because it's not a constant kill, build, attack, repair, attack, attack, repair, build that isn't attached to any resources. Even *that* can be boring though and the developers made changes to NS1 to dampen the chore of eating rts by reducing their health which is testament to this. It's just way too monotonous because it happens in every game, all the time. At least that's how I feel.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
who secures it for the lights? lol. i take crossroads because of it's strategic importance every time. "riddled with limitations" i agree but this doesnt mean remove it, just means fix it?
as for the fun factor, check out that link, its a thread just for that topic :)
One great thing about ns2 is it's very modable, so if we really dislike power-nodes in the end we can always discard them by changing about one line of code.
<!--quoteo(post=1898542:date=Feb 1 2012, 06:01 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Feb 1 2012, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would suggest any UWE employees reading this thread to remember that just because a relative majority of people are complaining doesn't mean it's the common opinion. Those who don't want drastic changes in these regards simply aren't the ones showing up in forums. I'll amend this post with some more constructive thoughts when I wake up, too tired for this now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bizarro forums now?
You secure power-nodes for their strategic importance and yet you find yourself securing *every* power-node? This dilutes the event. You're either setting up camp (build the power-node), getting resources (build the power-node) or attacking aliens in dark rooms (build the power-node). If I felt like I could ever occupy a room without wanting to build a power-node, then I wouldn't mind so much but the light/dark thing, even in isolation, means it's always advantageous.
It's really unwise to play the modding card. You want vanilla NS2 to be as tight as possible. In fact, the fewer the customisations, the greater the compliment.
Comments
I play public all the time and my fps is 50-70 ( same as bf3 )
Hitbox works fine for me even with the 170ping & the power nodes takes over +45sec ( as a solo skulk ) to destroy.
If the marines leave the power node unprotected its their own fault.
The maps are avarage "balanced". Some rooms are opend/big and some rooms are tiny.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 i dont belive you (are you sure your not getting 50 fps then it drops alot late game when theres 100 + structures built by com/s gorges ect)
2 post your computers specs
3 videos or it didnt happen
everyone i know who has ridiculous systems has trouble running this game -
Remember this game will eventually be on the store page of steam.
You can't possibly be arguing that the game must be simplified so that even blind people have an equal chance. Like what?
I think it just *seems* challenging because it isn't done for you automatically by the game.
My original point still stands, too - communicating which areas are under attack is the role of the commander and teammates. Each individual player should not always get full information from just their map/local environment.
There's a compromise, though - you just label the power nodes on the map. After all, res nodes and all marine buildings are labelled for you as a marines player. Power nodes are also in the same place all the time no matter what. I don't see a problem with doing this.
Remember this game will eventually be on the store page of steam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agree alot here
As long as each mechanic/feature is clearly explained and how they relate to each other, I don't see a problem.
Sorry for the sort of off-topic reply.
This is why I like to mention a lot that Power Nodes should be visible on your mini-map, which it currently isn't.
a) wasting time by searching all over the area [difficult for a new player in say, atrium]
b) knowing where the powernode is from experience.
playing on the new Turtle map the other day reinforced this reality for me.
"I think if it's something you have to learn once"
you're going to tell me the fist time you played summit you remembered where each powernode was the next time you played it??
" communicating which areas are under attack is the role of the commander and teammates. Each individual player should not always get full information from just their map/local environment. "
i agree communication is key, but expecting even the average comm (<b>IF </b>he even has a mic) to communicate to each individual the location of a specific item (power node) per room.... is <u>asinine</u>. Additional hints/tutorials/HUD/features are the method to communicate such basic gameplay mechanics. the commander has far better things to do than micromanage at that level, remember that he is responsible for strategy, not holding hands. Thats why the on screen additions lately have been amazing, communication is still occurring, but veterans are able to get to that power node just as easily as a n00b with waypoints and the "press E to repair" stuff.
"brute force in the form of game changes" is required to hold the hands of new players. try sitting down one of your friends thats never played NS2 before... <b>dont say a word</b> and see how well they comprehend everything going on as a marine.
Tremann, i agree except that core gameplay mechanics must remain easy and accessible to new players, gaming depth is not inhibited at all by this, as having the meta game of everything else creates that experience.
<b>example</b>: capturing a flag is easy and obvious, but picking up the items on the ground in specific spots, on the way to the flag, give you the advantage and create depth for the game. if the flag capturing required a skill based meta game that was on par with item hoarding (watch fatal1ty) you would be denying a large amount of players that experience that the game was meant to give to <i>everyone</i>, not just the experienced.
Wow. Just wow. You have missed the point <b>entirely</b>.
The point of the analogy was:
- CCs in NS, like Kings in Chess, are the objective - "taking" the piece wins the game. However, the King does have some ability to move and some ability to attack, and this remains rather analogous to the CC. Also, there is only one King, that is, one objective (this is still analogous to NS because the -last- CC is the true King piece).
- Power nodes, however, are similar to the CC in that taking them wins you the game, but in a game of chess they would represent a <b>trash piece</b> that no one would ever want because the piece cannot attack, and neither can it move. There would also be multiple of them around the board and you would have to keep every single one, because losing a certain one would automatically lose you the game.
Simply put, the King is a good part of a good game's (Chess) design, while the Power Node is a bad part of an otherwise good game's (NS) design, and this becomes obvious when you apply the analogy (that's why analogies exist and why people use them). I'm inviting you to imagine playing a game of chess with pieces comparable to the power nodes. Does such a game sound fun to you?
It has nothing to do with the fact that power nodes don't exist in Chess (obviously). I can't even imagine what train of thought led you to that conclusion about the analogy.
The power nodes, as they are, are simply a bad idea.
The point of the analogy was:
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
:s. no i dont believe i have missed the point. You ask whether playing a game of chess with powernode type units would be fun. Probably not for whatever reason that is specific to the design goals and rule sets of chess. This has nothing to do with NS2.
My point is I didnt think it was very plausible to draw an analogy between two different game sets by saying that because x is better without powernode type units, y must also be better without them. Does chess have sentries? Does chess have lighting effects? (Nevermind the fact that you still need to kill the CC after you kill the powernode to fulfill the win objective just as you might kill a players strategically placed pieces in order to take the King).
And really, this is your arguement.
A piece that cannot attack nor move is trash
Powernodes cannot attack nor move
<b>Therefore Powernodes are trash</b>
I could also say the following with your premise.
CC's cannot attack nor move. They don't and i have no idea where your getting this idea that they can.
<b>Therefore CC's are trash</b>
I don't understand the idea that losing a single powernode out of all the powernodes in the map will lose the game automatically
The only one that will probably lead to a defeat is the powernode in the main base
btw..
Having multiple positions to defend is a GOOD thing.
In fact, have more and more places you need to defend (risk) for building more and more res nodes (reward) is a very important part of RTS games
The only argument I have against powernodes and building in general is the amount of time being wasted press 'e', as the FPS fanatics have pointed out :p
The only thing wrong with power nodes is the lack of priority given to them by the marine team when setting up defenses. Once players learn how valuable the nodes are they will spend the 15 pres to drop some mines around them and take the time to keep them repaired. That's really all the defense you need for a res power node. On a hive node you can splurge on a turret or two in addition to the mines.
If nobody is paying any attention to the weak points in your defense your team is screwed. The same thing happens to the alien team when marines kill cyst chains and the commander/gorges don't notice that half of their structures are disconnected and dying.
This will already help a lot on the balancing.
(Regarding spawntimes -> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116055" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=116055</a> )
Seems like most people agree powernodes are an unfair disadvantage do nothing but hinder one side
but even then thats 11% of those that are actively posting in this thread, not even pooling from the large number that purchased the game.
i think additional attention needs to be paid to many areas still in this game regarding balance - and this is an ongoing process as the developers have stated many times, and it is not in it's final stage of adjustment, features are constantly being added in.
so calling for them to be removed before attempting to balance them is a bit pre emptive and possibly unnecessary.
i do get the reason for your point though, but as others have said its part of the territorial tug of war, equaled by infestation.
(i remember back in alpha days where people screamed about how handicapped aliens were because infestation was required to build but power nodes were already present / on. they somewhat fixed this with having neutral zones now... so just give it some more time and constructive feedback :-] )
A piece that cannot attack nor move is trash
Powernodes cannot attack nor move
<b>Therefore Powernodes are trash</b>
I could also say the following with your premise.
CC's cannot attack nor move. They don't and i have no idea where your getting this idea that they can.
<b>Therefore CC's are trash</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<u>No.</u>
I'll try <i>one more time</i>. Hopefully you'll get it this time.
Power nodes are a <b>critical piece</b> that cannot "attack" or "move".
CCs are a <b>critical piece</b> with a <b>limited</b> ability to "attack" and "move".
These are <b>critical pieces</b> because taking them wins the game.
I think you're taking this <b>analogy</b> far too literally : the CC has the ability to "attack" and "move" in the sense that it serves other purposes, it unlocks, it directs, it serves multiple functions (you could in fact take it literally when you consider that the commander can leave the CC to defend, and sometimes does); the power node on the other hand has literally no ability and serves no other purpose than to act as a weak point.
If it is going to be a weak point, it <b>cannot be critical</b>.
also, don't be so elitist to other people man. have you considered that the rest of the world doesn't have comprehension problems, but instead harimau has communication problems? its worth consideration when you are frustrated with others.
I don't understand the idea that losing a single powernode out of all the powernodes in the map will lose the game automatically<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b><u><i>certain</i></u></b>
Admittedly, it was an exaggeration to say you would have to keep every single one, but which power node depends on which power nodes are tied to bases. You lose that piece, you lose the base, you lost a significant part of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1898759:date=Feb 2 2012, 11:30 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 2 2012, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its ability is to power the structures much like infestation?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. Its ability is to unpower the structures, and that ability belongs to the aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1898759:date=Feb 2 2012, 11:30 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 2 2012, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->also, don't be so elitist to other people man.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The word is condescending, not elitist.
:)
<!--quoteo(post=1898759:date=Feb 2 2012, 11:30 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 2 2012, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->have you considered that the rest of the world doesn't have comprehension problems, but instead harimau has communication problems? its worth consideration when you are frustrated with others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would certainly be the case if <b>no one</b> understood the analogy.
but even if you were somehow right, then that same ability still relates to infestation. its hard to attack one form of territory control without attacking it's intended equal.
"That would certainly be the case if no one understood the analogy. " wrong again. :) all that is needed for harimau to fail at communicating is just that. no conditional statement of majority of minority was put in place. you either are successful or not. even if you were to use the majority vote as your rule of thumb you have no way of gathering that info. so its probably just safe to assume when someone doesnt understand that it was your lack of communicating in a means which is successful. (which may or may not include elitist behavior / condescending or impatient responses )
:-D
that was so much useless semantic tennis that we need to get back on topic: power nodes are working as intended for the most part and oh yea... BETA. anymore constructive ideas?
2. the powernode discussion
<u>Note: there might be some way to make it work, but the current mechanic is bad.</u>
<b><u>Powernode:</u></b>
Marines can in theory build everywhere except infestation(not really true, commandstations require techpoints in ns2), but require power from a powernode.
PN power structures in a room, if destroyed every structure in this room is unpowered => they dont work anymore and you have a very big chance to lose them.(because aliens now only have to deal with players, while the structures are not destroyed - they dont work until power is up again. so its a kinda a destroy everything mechanic but only for a limited time in a worse case scenario)
Powernodes are at a fixed position in each room - you cant just drop it it needs interaction with your units(players) until it operates/ or operates again (if destroyed), usually placed in an alien friendly way. (e.g. summit old marine start, there is a corner and gorges can bilebomb, but also have a chance to dodge behind the corner while other lifeforms protect them from incoming marines)
Downsides:
Units need to build and repair it actively.
If destroyed everything in a room is unpowered. (no sentry defences, phasegates, armorys etc. will work anymore)
1 single structure per room, while it has a good amount of health its still only one structure that needs to be focused.
Upsides:
?
<b><u>Infestation:</u></b>
Aliens can only build on infestation.
Infestation doesnt really power structures, its a requirement to build them - if destroyed the structure will still work, but very slowly lose health until it either dies, or the cyst chain is up again.
Infestation doesnt require units to actively interact with it. But units have the ability to do so, besides the commander.
Downsides:
Since cysts cost energy, it limits aliens to spread out fast in the beginning of a game. (but thats why aliens can switch lifeforms to gorge, and assist the commander in reaching positions)
Cysts are relative weak
Aliens can only build on infestation.
Upsides:
Slows down marines:
- movement speed is slower(at least sprint)
- marines have limited amounts of ammunition and have to reload so in case marines attack infestation they go low on ammo, which means the commander has to spend pres to give them ammo back - its a good opportunity to attack as aliens, because attacking while some marines are reloading has a higher chance of success. (so besides static defenses infestation is a good distraction and can buy you time)
- because infestation doesnt require units, at least commanders can place it everywhere (ok not really everywhere, they need to build a chain, but there is usually a chain at position you need to care about, where marines might want to build something etc) - preventing or limiting marines to build in a key position until reinforcements arrive.
Makes marines visible: marines that ignore cysts, are still visible for the whole alien team - even the direction in which marines are looking is visible on the minimap.
Can get rid of mines, or distract sentry turrets, arcs?.
It is cheap. 2pres(+10 for the lifeform) or energy. (the longer a game progresses the less it is limiting you, in addition you have gorges)
Units can build and heal it actively, but in case they cant its not as big of a deal to lose them.
Cysts come in big amounts, and because they are cheap they are easily replaced (while 1lmg mag doesnt seem much to kill, after 4-5 pustules a marine is out of primary ammo(and he spent a lot time doing this + gave out his position), if you attack with axe you will destroy less cysts and aliens have more time to get to you + there is the weapon switch delay)
You dont need ground units to repair it, you usually can just replace it with magic from the sky.
Because ammo is an issue marines tend to ignore pustules most of the time. (marine comms are limited by pres)
...
<b><u>So what do we know now?</u></b>
The only point of powernodes is to be a downside for marines, so aliens have an alternative way to get rid of marine bases. And it slows down marines, because they first have to clear a room from infestation, then secure the powernode / build or rebuild it while also building important structures in a room.
Also powernodes are not interessting targets for aliens except if they are close to a hive, or inside the marine base. (sure you kill them sometimes to setup an ambush for marines, or just because its the most productive thing to do atm until alien reinforcements are here)
While infestation is a bit similar in some points its totally different, downsides are really weak(and with additional hives + gorges, not really existent anymore), and lots of upsides.
Infestation = map control
Powernodes = :(
I feel this is starting to get outdated now. All kinds of testing and revising are still necessary of course, but if they really want to release this year they better start nailing down the bigger pieces of the overall plan pretty soon. You probably can't go "Oh no, that doesn't work after all" on more than a few things 6 months from now anymore - not at least if they want to get a polished and tested game out before the giants take over the christmas market and steal all the attention.
Are you joking? The overwhelming majority of posters both in this thread and on the board as a whole are fawning fanboys that will defend every decision made by the devs no matter how bad it actually is. I know several people who simply don't want to post here anymore, even though they'd provide valuable feedback if they did, because the minute they try to suggest that <x> feature is not such a great idea after all, they get shot down by the swarm of clueless forumites (usually not even bothering to consider what was actually posted).
<!--quoteo(post=1898567:date=Feb 1 2012, 12:58 PM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Feb 1 2012, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having multiple positions to defend is a GOOD thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We already have this. They're called resource towers, command stations, and phase gates.
<i>The developers want asymmetry. </i>
What would be truly asymmetric is not having both teams rely on X in order to expand.
<i>The developers want a smaller learning curve. </i>
What would truly make entry-level requirements low would be to abolish the convoluted grid system (and pres.. and damage types..). It might be intuitive enough but do you know what's more intuitive? Dropping structures wherever I want. This ethos has not been achieved at all, certainly not in any strategic sense. What I have seen is a dumbing down on movement mechanics which is an absolute crying shame in my view.
<i>The developers want variety.</i>
The grid system kills variety <b>dead</b>. Every game now revolves around taking a room, securing it, blah blah. It's the same rooms all the time too and in order to secure them, i'm severely limited by where the power-node is positioned because it's a huge weak point. Other threads have <b>unanimously</b> indicated how limiting it is for certain structures, notably the phasegates. The work-around? Introduce more confusing rules/structure/abilities.
<i>The developers want the game to be fun(?).</i>
Eating power-nodes is boring. Defending them is boring. Losing to cheese is boring. I don't get the defence really. Who finds it fun? The commanders? Surely not, because they're the ones whose creativity is being obliterated by grid handicaps. The marines? Can't be, because it only represents a weakness and staring at the wall doesn't float any boats. Aliens then? Maybe they like the low-risk, high-reward, cheese strategy that cripples bases. That is to say, only when its possible, because in the vast majority of cases, it's a boring wall-stare coupled with the not uncommon instant death. When this happens, my effort has often literally been wasted when I could have invested the time in something more entertaining, like cutting myself for instance.
<i>The developers want asymmetry. </i>
What would be truly asymmetric is not having both teams rely on X in order to expand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
asymmetry is either.
not having both teams rely on x
or not having both teams rely on x
... ? you didnt have an explanation for the statement of "devs want asymmetry" you just stated what you think asymmetry is in one scenario? am i missing something?
"Every game now revolves around taking a room, securing it, blah blah."
this would happen with or without a powergrid.. its the territory control, one of the elements that makes it like an RTS?...
"Who finds it fun?"
i think at this point i have to assume you are just attempting to represent other players with your own opinion inaccurately and that the only purpose of your post was to express your disapproval of certain decisions that you haven't actually elaborated on short of abolishing the majority of the features of the game in one fell swoop. chomping at a structure or a power node is the same to me as a skulk and i really dont see the big difference in an actual gameplay point of view. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116113&st=0" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...116113&st=0</a>
but hey, i know you'll just say "fan boy".. which is the same as saying i like the game currently... whats your reason for playing?
on that note i believe Koruyo did a great job explaining in detail his argument, and i have to say after reading his well thought out points provided with facts, he has led me to believe that there may be serious issues with powernodes (that still can easily be fixed, mind you by a multitude of ways, one being buffs) and i am open to testing out an NS2 without powernodes as long as infestation is balanced in such a way that aliens arent too handicapped.
Securing rooms wouldn't be nearly as important if it didn't power up rooms and make them actually possible to pass through. Rooms should be secured because they are strategic locations, not simply because you have to secure it if you want the... lights to be on.
The fun thing is personal and admittedly, I got a bit scathing. There is a difference with killing structures, though, because it's not a constant kill, build, attack, repair, attack, attack, repair, build that isn't attached to any resources. Even *that* can be boring though and the developers made changes to NS1 to dampen the chore of eating rts by reducing their health which is testament to this. It's just way too monotonous because it happens in every game, all the time. At least that's how I feel.
"riddled with limitations" i agree but this doesnt mean remove it, just means fix it?
as for the fun factor, check out that link, its a thread just for that topic :)
Bizarro forums now?
It's really unwise to play the modding card. You want vanilla NS2 to be as tight as possible. In fact, the fewer the customisations, the greater the compliment.