Why do unsocketed sites start with power?
Soul_Rider
Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I am trying some simple lighting tests and need to do the lighting in 2 stages, 1st for aliens without power node, then with power for marines. While testing this, I noticed something which had bothered me slightly when playing, but became more prevalent while testing.
Why do unsocketed rooms have power? I'm not saying they should start blacked out, but they should have the alternative lighting in the 1st instance, until the marines put the power in there. I thought the whole general concept was the place was without power until the marines create the power grid?
It just strikes me as unnatural, especially when running around as a skulk, if I go into a room that's lit, I expect a power node to be able to chomp on. It's mildy annoying to find there is not one there, but the room is still lit for marines, rather than aliens, also if aliens drop a hive in a room the marines have never power-noded, the room stays lit for marines instead of providing the aliens with the cover they should have.
Speaking from a mapping point of view, I want to encourage more dynamic environments in rooms where there may not be a res node or tech point, but in the current design, the rooms stays lit as if the marines control them. Before people get worried, I am not talking about spamming power nodes all over the place, but I have 4 key junctions, that will play a large part of the game because of my map design, and I want them to be more dynamic rooms, with fighting over the lighting through the power nodes, but currently, the marines just need never drop one there to get the benefit of their lighting.
Why do unsocketed rooms have power? I'm not saying they should start blacked out, but they should have the alternative lighting in the 1st instance, until the marines put the power in there. I thought the whole general concept was the place was without power until the marines create the power grid?
It just strikes me as unnatural, especially when running around as a skulk, if I go into a room that's lit, I expect a power node to be able to chomp on. It's mildy annoying to find there is not one there, but the room is still lit for marines, rather than aliens, also if aliens drop a hive in a room the marines have never power-noded, the room stays lit for marines instead of providing the aliens with the cover they should have.
Speaking from a mapping point of view, I want to encourage more dynamic environments in rooms where there may not be a res node or tech point, but in the current design, the rooms stays lit as if the marines control them. Before people get worried, I am not talking about spamming power nodes all over the place, but I have 4 key junctions, that will play a large part of the game because of my map design, and I want them to be more dynamic rooms, with fighting over the lighting through the power nodes, but currently, the marines just need never drop one there to get the benefit of their lighting.
Comments
From a gameplay perspective I sort of agree though that the entire map should be dark and hostile to marines until power is built. It's a bit silly that aliens want marines to build the node so that they can destroy it and make the room darker.
1) Marines cannot power on/use structures without power. Aliens cannot even place structures without dynamic infestation.
2) Marines are equipped with a flashlight. Aliens have alien vision.
In its current state having the aliens wait until the marines build the power node just so they can destroy it to make it dark not only pretty silly but a big nuisance. As Soul_Rider pointed out, dropping a hive in a room the marines have never powered make it impossible to make it dark. Probably should make the room go dark automatically when a hive is dropped or even have they the dynamic infestation short circuit the socket.
The lighting in an unoccupied room should be neutral and not benefit either side. With that being said I don't think there should be power sockets at all. There should be half destroyed power nodes in every area giving off "dim" lighting. The marines can then build them if they want lighting, or the aliens can destroy them to make it dark.
Annoying to whom? The marines? The aliens should have the right to run across the map making every room dark if they choose. They have to physically go to each room and chomp the node.. the marines currently don't have to do anything. If the marines don't want the aliens to chomp the nodes then just go out and fight for it.
Perhaps un-socketed rooms can be a little dimmer, with some flicker? Just enough to create a few more pools of shadow for Skulks to hide in. That would certainly add richness to the experience of being a scouting Frontiersman. Make him check the corners, probe the shadows with his flashlight.
If there is one thing that is very underused in multiplayer games, it is darkness. Usually this if for good reason - the inability to see breeds frustration. But darkness that is predictable and able to be countered... Well, Natural Selection 2 could be one of the first multiplayer games to successfully implement darkness as a multiplayer game mechanic.
Make a marine player truly, <i>truly</i> fear walking into a room alone? Give an alien player the experience of hunting that marine through the dim corridors? I'd pay $35 for that.
If I am not very much mistaken, there are plans to incorporate that into the game once dynamic infestation is fully developed. It will also open locked doors.
<!--quoteo(post=1894969:date=Jan 16 2012, 05:00 PM:name=put3rg33k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (put3rg33k @ Jan 16 2012, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lighting in an unoccupied room should be neutral and not benefit either side. With that being said I don't think there should be power sockets at all. There should be half destroyed power nodes in every area giving off "dim" lighting. The marines can then build them if they want lighting, or the aliens can destroy them to make it dark.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's pretty much the same as it was before. The problem is that the aliens, being sneaky and fast, would destroy all the power nodes in a matter of minutes. Not only was this supremely annoying, it also gave the aliens a substantial advantage, as almost the entire map would be dark. The current implementation, while not perfect, actually does more to maintain balance than your suggestion.
Isn't this the mappers fault? I plan to have no 'dark' areas as such on the map, just two lighting passes, one set-up for aliens, and one for marines, under alien conditions, the red will dominate of course, but it will not be dark, just 'moodier'. This is the key, to get a balanced alien lighting and a balanced marine lighting, then this can work very well.
I understand the aliens would run around chomping all the power nodes, but surely the marines are here because the kharaa are here, so the kharaa should have the initial advantage on the power situation? The other thing is that the marines don't need a grid, they don't need to keep each room sequentially ordered to keep the grid alive, but if the aliens lose just 1 cyst, their power grid is down, this needs to be balanced a little too I feel. Requiring all powernodes to be in place would balance that, but the lighting needs to be well done to differentiate between the two.
The main issue is I have 4 rooms in my map, which will never be used to their full potential, because marines need never socket those nodes. Same on summit, been playing it for ages now, and still dicovering new nodes that we've never used :P
If something is not going to be used, why have it in the game? Current implementation means you need a power node in your tech/res rooms, but you don't want any anywhere else, because they won't get used, leading to an always marine advantage. This takes a lot of the mappers power to influence gameplay away. Also it means I'm going to have to naturally darken these rooms compared to normal marine lighting, just so they don't have too much of an advantage. Power nodes are a great idea for map control and gameplay, but they are redundant outside of tech/res rooms. Ultimately that leads to the question, why have them? Make a room light or a room dark by the tech point usage, hive or cc, and just drop the power nodes, because while a great concept, this current implementation is just a waste of time for all involved, mappers, players etc.
I guess it just feels to me that if marines are not using the power nodes, but still getting the lighting benefits, it's basically an exploit. A marine enhancing exploit at that. You want light in the room? You power it :P
The whole concept of the power grid was great, except the only team to have it implemented are the aliens. this just seems so out of whack to me. Aliens should only need to drop a single pustule to power a room, likewise marines should need to power up a socket in every room on the route, or they don't complete their grid.
So your saying that the nodes are being destroyed before the marines can defend them? Then why not just up the HP, at least while unoccupied, on the nodes to compensate? Or even make it so they can't be destroyed within the first couple minutes of a game? Where the current implementation may have helped with balance, it completely disregards the whole concept; why even have it.
Hell, technically the whole map should be dark and the marines should have to go out an place and build power nodes. Or better yet, bing back the power pack in a nerfed stated to use for lighting...
I understand why the current system was bought in, but it's a poor system that favors the marine team over the aliens, like the old system favored aliens over marines.
Maybe borrow from old NS1. Power nodes are socketed but are electrifed in their original spawned state.
It takes team work eg: 2 or 3 skulks to take down a powered socket without dying of electrocution.
Nodes can be chomped down but take a few health regens to do alone or a number of skulks to do it quickly. This way a team of 6 aliens can't take down 6 seperate nodes simultaneously, Keeping the map lit in the early game. adding time/health consuming stratagy if you want the whole map dark.
Could borrow the code from the commander shield it already has an animation, tweak it to take health, give it a permanence state at a game start on all nodes till they are destroyed.
From a game mechanics perspective, it's fine since neither side can build in an area and 'use' it without prior investment. The only thing that's one-sided is that in some cases, light or the lack thereof affects combat. But that's why aliens should attack power nodes, using the attack itself to create opportunities like flanks/ambushes, and using the after effect to dominate an area (with combat being easier in the dark).
In terms of what I would call 'game psychology' it's designed to show when control is shifting, in a natural and intuitive way. Right now what we have is "things start out lit and richly detailed, then in some places they darken and become murky, then go back again and so on." The alternative is "things start out dark and murky, then become lit and detailed, and go back again and so on." I'm sure the alternative is worse but I can't quite articulate why - does anyone have some experience with psychology and that sort of thing to add to this?
I prefer to think of the lighting as mood lighting, with marines being harsh whites and bright colours, while aliens are a warmer softer tone. This should be the difference in the lighting. If lighting is done correctly, then starting with the power off for unsocketed nodes doesn't leave any blackness. Just a more ambient lighting scheme. Having the power nodes start mid-way would indeed cause a lot of blackness as they are taken down, but starting with them unpowered with ambient alien light would mean no blackness and redness until they had been built and destroyed, which is the same mechanic as now.
From a game mechanics perspective, it's fine since neither side can build in an area and 'use' it without prior investment. The only thing that's one-sided is that in some cases, light or the lack thereof affects combat. But that's why aliens should attack power nodes, using the attack itself to create opportunities like flanks/ambushes, and using the after effect to dominate an area (with combat being easier in the dark).
In terms of what I would call 'game psychology' it's designed to show when control is shifting, in a natural and intuitive way. Right now what we have is "things start out lit and richly detailed, then in some places they darken and become murky, then go back again and so on." The alternative is "things start out dark and murky, then become lit and detailed, and go back again and so on." I'm sure the alternative is worse but I can't quite articulate why - does anyone have some experience with psychology and that sort of thing to add to this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you understand the problem. The aliens do not have the ability to "break down the marines' power" as they can't attack an empty power socket. Therefore the marines are given full lighting in every part of the map. The aliens can't create opportunities like flanks/ambushes as they can't destroy the node until the marines build it. At this point in time the marines have no reason to build power nodes in any part of the map aside aside from where they want to build structures. So they reap the advantages of lighting without the aliens having any capability of evening the playing field.
Maybe a "neutral" stage would make sense, I dont know. But I know one thing: Destroying every power node on the map at the beginning of the round - every round - is not very fun. The change was good, it may just need a little bit of refinement.
This is so simple to solve. Start the round with powernode for lights set to 0. Don't add the red overlay, or the blackness.
When the mapper creates the maps, he assigns lights first of all to ignore power grid, these are the ambient lights, remember models and textures with luminesence still glow. Make the room gently lit, but no darkness, then add the lights which are attached to the power grid.
Then when the map starts, you get the plain ambient lighting all over, except ms which gets the powergrid lighting too, and then you still get the visual aspect of contested areas when the red overlay from the engine is added when nodes are built and destroyed.
It really shouldn't cause any issues, and the lighting has to be done anyway by the mapper, so it's no extra work.
this sounds like a good solution, +1.
BUT, I do not think that any changes should be made to this feature. WHY?;
Strategic Importance.
When team1/marine commander decides to activate power in a room, this is an 'investment'. It is the role & responsibility of the team to ensure it's security. And in contrast, when team1/marine commander makes the 'investment' it becomes an 'opportunity' for team2/kharaa to (for the lack of the better word) 'exploit' said 'investment'.
NOTE: team2/kharaa are essentially parasitical and advance DUE TO the advancement of other/team1/marine.
Maybe a "neutral" stage would make sense, I dont know. But I know one thing: Destroying every power node on the map at the beginning of the round - every round - is not very fun. The change was good, it may just need a little bit of refinement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So far I haven't heard anything explaining how the current implementation is better. The only thing I have heard is that the marines were annoyed because it was always dark because the aliens would always destroy the nodes at the beginning of the game. So why couldn't the marines go prevent this from happening? If the aliens wanted to go chomp the power nodes and the marines didn't want to do anything about it then that is the marines call. Both sides are doing the same thing at the beginning of the map so to say they have their own #### going on in the early stage makes no sense. The only marine that is doing a bunch of crap in the beginning is the commander, right? Either that or protecting the base from an early alien rush, but even then are the aliens stopping on the way to chomp nodes?
At the current implementation it may prevent the nodes from being destroyed, but it has given the marines the upper hand with the aliens without any method of changing it. The problem isn't the lighting, its the aliens inability to do anything about it. Just because the marines QQ about it being dark doesn't mean they should throw the whole system out the window, they just need to tune it. After all, you could say that if the aliens were doing this every match then why not just make the whole map dark to begin with?
BUT, I do not think that any changes should be made to this feature. WHY?;
Strategic Importance.
When team1/marine commander decides to activate power in a room, this is an 'investment'. It is the role & responsibility of the team to ensure it's security. And in contrast, when team1/marine commander makes the 'investment' it becomes an 'opportunity' for team2/kharaa to (for the lack of the better word) 'exploit' said 'investment'.
NOTE: team2/kharaa are essentially parasitical and advance DUE TO the advancement of other/team1/marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That makes no sense. The aliens need to advance to win the game, and waiting for a marine investment to do so does not adhere to that. Lighting in an area does tilt the favor of combat, so destroying a power node is strategic. In a general sense if i want to invade the marine base, I can destroy the power node for an advantage. But the marines can just waltz into alien hive with the advantage automatically. Is this offset with the fact that if the aliens destroy the power node in the marine base all their structures powered down?
Now Kharaa just rush straight into spawn because, screw it, they've got nothing else to do until the nodes come in. I liked it better as it was, tbh; there was tactical choice in early-game.
It doesn't seem to be working that way. If a dev could confirm that it would be great, but my test map seems to start with full powernode lighting without a socket. Although I may be doing something wrong in my map of course :P
That's pretty much the same as it was before. The problem is that the aliens, being sneaky and fast, would destroy all the power nodes in a matter of minutes. Not only was this supremely annoying, it also gave the aliens a substantial advantage, as almost the entire map would be dark. The current implementation, while not perfect, actually does more to maintain balance than your suggestion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is it bad for the alien team to have an advantage in uncontrolled territory at the start of the game? This would encourage the marines to work outwards from their base, repairing powernodes as they go. It gives marines the same sense of territory growth that aliens have with infestation, and makes for more intuitive teamwork. Neither team can build anything at the start, but it makes sense to me that skulks have the upper hand when it comes to free roaming the map. There's no reason the game can't be balanced around that concept - unpowered rooms honestly aren't that dark anyway.
WTF devs?
WTF devs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you've been following UWE's statements, you'll recall that hive rooms aren't supposed to be dark. DI is meant to do all the light-modification work once they get around to that can of featureworms.
and give mappers an easy way to test these schemes in the editor...
0 - Unsocketed - Light is set to mapper standard.
1 - Socketed - light is slightly brighter + blue tint
2 - Lost Power - Red Throb....i love the red throb
3 - Alien - Light is slightly darker than set + green tint.
Now Kharaa just rush straight into spawn because, screw it, they've got nothing else to do until the nodes come in. I liked it better as it was, tbh; there was tactical choice in early-game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just what I thought. Its not just a matter of light, it is important part of early gameplay and I liked how it worked before better. I like the fact that there are not "broken node" areas now though.
I feel that rooms should have 3 basic states:
(1) Marine Controlled
(2) Alien Controlled
(3) Neutral
All rooms would start in the neutral state, excluding starting bases of course.
(*) Furthermore, I don't think hallways and connecting passages should be treated as "true rooms" with power nodes. Explanation to follow.
Basic Descriptions.
(1) Marine Controlled.
Marine Controlled rooms have socketed power nodes.
They are well lit with few to no dark areas to hide in.
Basically, just as it is now.
(2) Alien Controlled.
The power node is not simply un-socketed. It is infested. Think something like a "mega cyst" where the power node normally is.
It is very dark. Only a few emergency lights should be lit. Other sources of light will be the mild glow emitted by the infestation and alien structures. (The glow is in, or at least stilled planned, right?)
The "mega cyst" would be created by a Gorge. IMO this would be a nice way to bring back some more importance to the Gorge. Alternatively, the Alien commander could do it with drifters.
I'm partial to the Gorge method, but either way would work. Whichever fits the plans for the Alien commander and Gorge best I suppose.
Infested rooms would grow infestation (with pre-placed cyst locations by mappers, like with the random start location cysts) on ALL surfaces (A. (Dunno how that may mess with the commander view. Perhaps if a surface is invisible to the commander, the infestation on that surface would inherit the trait. Does it work like that now with Gorges putting cysts on ceilings?)
To bring more importance to infesting rooms, Gorges would still be able to place cysts on walls and ceilings, but they CANNOT connect to the cyst network unless the power node is infested with a mega cyst. Ground based cysts would of course work normally.
(3) Neutral
This applies to unsocketed, uninfested, and destroyed nodes.
Think of a shopping center at night with all the stores closed. There are lights on the sidewalks and places people would walk. There are plenty of dark corners and unlit areas too. The overall idea of a Neutral room is to give neither team a complete advantage, but to still provide some mild advantages if you are clever/smart enough to stay in lit areas (as a Marine per say) or to use the shadowy areas (as an Alien per say).
(*) Hallways and Connecting Passages
These are not rooms. They do not have power nodes.
However, the same 3 basic states still apply. Instead of the state of a power node deciding the state of the Hallway/Passage, the state of the adjoining rooms would decide the state of the Hallway/Passage.
That is to say:
If all adjoining rooms are Marine Controlled. Then the Hallway/Passage is Marine Controlled. Ditto for Aliens.
If the adjoining rooms are not entirely controlled by one team, then the Hallway/Passage defaults to a Neutral state.
Hallways/Passages, should contain some type of state indicator like a dumbed down power node. More important for marines I suppose so they know if structures will have power.
Of course, ground based cysts can still be built through a Hallway/Passage like normal despite whatever state it is in.
One flaw that I haven't quite got a good idea for is the following situation. Let's say the Marines have control of all the adjoining rooms to a Hallway/Passage and then build structures in said Hallway/Passage. The Marines then lose control of one adjoining room and the Hallway/Passage becomes Neutral and the structures lose power. The Marines get screwed out of using their structures, even though they may still be able to keep the aliens from attacking the Hallway/Passage. Unfortunately it doesn't work the same way for Aliens, who can keep their structures alive with their cyst network. The obvious and simple solution is Power Packs. However I get the feeling that those are never coming back. Unless someone else or I can think of something, this would make Hallways/Passages a dangerous place for Marines to build structures.
I will re-post this in its own thread for its own discussion later tonight if I can. I don't mean to thread jack, I just think that this idea is pertinent to this thread and worth mentioning. If anyone is feeling inspired, feel free to beat me to the punch and re-post and discuss. Just leave a mention of me in the re-post please.