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ogz
Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Members
Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Members
We need a thread to comment on the ns2hd videos :p (beyond logging into youtube and posting there)
Just watched game 2 of the 7 games 156 v cyd..
Lerk rush.
I am almost thinking that even if the entire marine team was sitting in base waiting, they prolly couldn't finish the lerks off in time :o
the other thing im wondering is... would the nano shield on the CC have saved it any time? , 10 secs to 20 secs?
maybe we can boost nano shield power in protecting buildings?
Just watched game 2 of the 7 games 156 v cyd..
Lerk rush.
I am almost thinking that even if the entire marine team was sitting in base waiting, they prolly couldn't finish the lerks off in time :o
the other thing im wondering is... would the nano shield on the CC have saved it any time? , 10 secs to 20 secs?
maybe we can boost nano shield power in protecting buildings?
Comments
This strikes me as the Lerk's spikes being too effective against buildings, so that specifically is what should be adjusted. The type of damage the Spikes do could be tweaked? Not too sure. It's a tricky one, but definitely worth taking a good look at. Although, I should point out that what we (156) did was essentially an All-In move and a bit extreme.
Regardless, I know UWE is already aware of this, and a few of them have already watched the video. So, fear not this will get addressed one way or another.
The good thing about this, is if the lerk rush fails. It's basically game over for aliens.
I would recommend decreasing the starting personal res from 25 to 15 or 20. This would give the marines enough time to 'tech up' and counter those lerks.
And then in one of the latests builds, CCs and Hives got a significant health nerf which was unnessesary and out of place.
There is no real counter to this, except for relocating when the lerks get into base.
Even then it's a real b*tch to tackle, cause when the lerks take one CC down and does not win, they know you dropped another.
Lerks <b>still</b> does too much damage against structures. And CCs/Hives need their HP back.
<!--quoteo(post=1894578:date=Jan 15 2012, 08:05 AM:name=scotty)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (scotty @ Jan 15 2012, 08:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894578"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The good thing about this, is if the lerk rush fails. It's basically game over for aliens.
I would recommend decreasing the starting personal res from 25 to 15 or 20. This would give the marines enough time to 'tech up' and counter those lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is, if a lerkrush like this fails, aliens still have a fair chance to win. Also, sentries is not a direct counter to it.
Changing starting personal res would make aliens too weak in the early game, and would be a pointless nerf.
Lerks should be available within the first minute or two, just like now, and just like NS1.
I prefer the idea of Mines actually being accessed early, but maybe 1(more after upgrading) per marine. Doing lower damage, and requiring more than one to kill most lifeforms.
Sort of for harassing aliens and giving Marines a chance to mop up.
Perhaps it could be a grenade that arms after being thrown at a surface. Left click normal mine, right click floating concussion mine.
This would definitely help public servers as well in the early game, whilst still giving the early skulk rush a chance - with a sacrafice if everyone drops them in the base.
The good thing about this, is if the lerk rush fails. It's basically game over for aliens.
I would recommend decreasing the starting personal res from 25 to 15 or 20. This would give the marines enough time to 'tech up' and counter those lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
At the current stage of development the starting positions are rotated. This is GOOD because it is giving (beta) plyrs the necessary experience in adaptability.
Take sub(summit) for example; Would a lerk rush be effective there?
I don't think so..
I haven't seen the video, but I DO NOT believe anything should be detracted from lerk ability, at all.
Noone can say where the RIGHT and WRONG place to build structures is. The repetition of marine base placement in earlier versions was utterly frustrating, IMO.
Changing starting personal res would make aliens too weak in the early game, and would be a pointless nerf.
Lerks should be available within the first minute or two, just like now, and just like NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a competitive game, if lerk rush fails. They shouldn't have enough res to go fade when the 6 minute clock is up. This gives a huge bonus to marines to 'tech up'.
So if the skill level was equal for both teams. I would say marines would win.
Also the sentries was a counter to this attack, it just doesn't work anymore due to recycling/robotics change.
Cheers,
-Scott.C
You can always go to <a href="http://www.ns2hd.com" target="_blank">http://www.ns2hd.com</a> and reply there at his actual website. =) But yeah I haven't really seen his latest videos i'll probably check them out later on tonight when I get some free time.
Either way it wouldn't site well when aliens can evolve frenzy. They'd have to take this evolution into account as well.
Well, I suspect that the alien economy is going to need some serious balancing in the future. Right now, the alien comm is limited by hive energy (especially early game) more than TRes. A medium term fix might be to reduce alien initial PRes to something like 10 or 15. However, it should be noted that we really only had 3-4 lerks attacking that CS at one time and it still went down very fast. At the current values, I'd expect even an end-game lerk rush to be pretty effective.
You need to get a feeling for that and at least then at this point scan around to find them, if you are not scanning regularly. (so you know if you should beacon, intercept or whatever)
Usually you have one pressure group (2-4 guys) that go into hive direction and the rest of the guys the other way around.
Aliens usually dont want to encounter marines in such rush tactics, they try to take a sneaky way into your base - encountering the marines would mean they could take dmg and their tactic will be spotted, and maybe even lose 1,2 players before getting into the base, only to see marines beacon, instantly reviving the ones you may have killed by engaging them instead of just sneaking - a lerk rush is an all-in tactic, greatly delays fades if it fails...
(if they dont sneak, just beacon - very little chance that this rush will work)
Now if you dont scan regularly, and didnt find it awkward that you didnt see an alien for quite some time... this means a few marines should be relative close to the hive, and since the aliens usually try to sneak around - you wont have any resistance at the hive.
=> Basetrade.
If you have 5 lerks in a more or less empty base, beacon might not save you anymore - in case the commander was slow. (if you have 5 marines in base prepared for what is coming, there shouldnt be a problem to kill the lerks)
Dont beacon, let your marines kill the hive - drop 1-2 commandstations on some techpoints* (if you dont have the res, you are screwed => beacon) drop some ammo for the marines that are at their hive.
win.
*you must be sure that there is no 2nd hive under construction, or that alien commander might have the res to drop it before your marines kill the hive - otherwise you have to beacon.
PS: Lerk rushes only happen relative early, because if marines have shotguns it doesnt really work anymore - even if the lerks managed to sneak into the base - beacon + drop some shotguns saves the day.
PPS: I dont want to say that this will work everytime, it all comes down to map overview, buildorder, commander reactions, good aim and maybe a bit luck. lerk rush is powerful, but not impossible to counter.
People started placing mines on the floor in ns1 beacuse it had no beam when placed ground so they were more stealthy and fast became the prefered way to place mines.
Beacon does not revive marines anymore. :(
Just teleports living marines back to base.
Just teleports living marines back to base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It also re-spawns 1 marine per infantry portals.
We'll see if this grows to become a problem but I'm enjoying it atm.
We'll see if this grows to become a problem but I'm enjoying it atm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It have been a problem for a long time. :/
The only thing you can do against it is relocating.
I guess 156 was being gentlemanly when they decided not to use the shade cloak as well.
So I should probably start off by saying that I opened incorrectly in that game, which has a little significance on the whole thing. I opened up with getting a Robo Facility in order to get turrets because I felt that they were going to rush us quite hard with skulks from the close positions. I should have opened up with researching Mines immediately, because mines do a much better job of defending a base in the early-game, especially when you have a competent marine team who understand how far they should go and understand how to aim, and listen to the comm. I then got an obs with the Robo Facility, so that along with the usual IP + Armory, that was all my Res gone (ignoring the Res Tower (possibly 2, I can't remember) to the north).
I then managed to get another 2 turrets, 1 defending north and 1 defending south of the base, which is fine, if I had a robo fac and I didn't build turrets, that would be silly. And anyway, lerks can blind turrets now for less damage, so if it was a problem for them they could basically fart on the offending turret, but regardless, they could hide from LoS via the roof above the Command Station and behind the Command Station.
When the Lerk rush came at the <b>2 minute and 30 seconds mark</b>, I was lucky enough to have an obs to recall back. Seeing the lerk rush when I did should have been enough time to call back the marines and give us a fighting chance. But mass recall takes about 2-3 seconds, and after that you have to take into consideration the +1 second it takes to re-orient yourself as a marine. The lerks took down the CC in <b>5.5 seconds flat</b>. This leaves (best case scenario that mass recall only takes 2 seconds) only 2.5 seconds to get within good enough range to take down lerks. And then you have to consider the factor that this isn't a real RTS, that is, <b>marines cannot shoot through buildings</b>, as well as the usual lerk tactic of flapping up and down really fast to make them harder to hit (which is actually another bone I have to pick about Lerks).
Now, seeing as I was severely under-practiced as a Commander, I should have DubStepped (Nano-shielded) the Command Station, but that only buys me another 5.5 seconds. I most certainly do not have the res to be buying myself more turrets, and anyhow, why would I buy turrets solely to point at the Command Station? Placing the turrets where I did, turning them around takes a good 4-5 seconds in itself, and I have to be lucky enough to have placed them somewhere that has Line of Sight to the Command Station <b>and for them to be in range</b> and <b>for the lerks not to be behind the command station for the turrets to have Line of Sight</b>.
Koruyo's examples are way too "perfect world" for it to be real. I admit, I was under-practiced, so my foresight was useless, but I honestly don't think you've come up against something like that yet. Had I been scanning, I wouldn't have had enough energy to recall as it was so early on. To boot, it doesn't matter if you scan the lerks from their base - lerks are way way faster than marines. A base-trade is one thing, but marines on LMG or Shotgun would not take down a hive in 5-10 seconds, even in a full "Pressure Group". Your only method of surviving is to kill the lerks. Beacon + dropping shotguns is only assuming you had the res to get Shotguns, but even so, you're not taking into account that after the beacon, you have to pick up the shotgun and then run from where you spawn close enough to get LoS. You simply don't take down 4 lerks, flapping wildly around and hiding from whatever direction they can, in 7 seconds flat (considering dubstep is on the Command Station, considering 2second beacon + 1 second orientation). You're also talking 2.5 mins into the game, not a lot of team res has been collected by this point. Another thing I would like to point out is why would you have 20 Team Res banked at the 2.5 min mark (or, quite frankly, at any point in the game unless your in a really good position). A bad commander leaves Team Res banked - <b>money saved is money wasted</b>. It has to be out on the field otherwise your money is useless, even if you saw the rush coming from a mile away, banking an extra 20 res on 2 RT's will take 1 minute and 20 seconds to build up from 0, and a lerk rush occurs in way less time than that, even considering the time it takes to evolve. But thank you for suggesting ways to counter it, the more ideas people throw at how to solve it, the more likely we can figure it out before having to make drastic changes!
Elodea makes a brilliant point that #156 didn't use shade, as that would have been catastrophic, and I would've needed a lucky scan on the lerks, assuming my team was near the cloaking lerks at the time to shoot them before they reach the base - even then, my marines would need to have been in base in the first place to get some early shots, meaning that scan would've stopped my recall.
So honestly, I don't think Flayra nor Koruyo's answers are correct, but I would love to discuss it further with you two, on here or in private, I like to be proven wrong so I can get a different perspective on these things! Now for the part I believe everyone is missing currently.
Let's say, for sake of argument, that I actually did the build order I wanted to do, that is, no robo, but res mines and shotguns + obs. Lerk rush occurs and they start hitting the Command Station but amazingly my team manages to kill the lerks dead. <b>The Alien team are still at a massive advantage</b>. The reason that this is the case is because my Command Station is down to about 10-20% of its health, as well as the aliens having a pretty fast respawn rate. By the time my marines have respawned and are getting to the Alien Base, I would gather that they have all respawned, or the last one is about to respawn. What's to stop them from just taking the long way around and finishing that last 10%-20%? Assuming I had a Robo Fac out, turrets won't do crap because 4-5 skulks rushing past a turret, only 1 would die at best, the rest would hide behind the Command Station, and I simply won't have the res to be placing down more. My best bet would be to get a MAC out and repair, but honestly, you're assuming I'm gonna open every game with a Robo Fac, which I'm not. Marines decide their tech path well before the 2.5 minute mark. So unless I open with Robo, and somehow we survive the lerk rush, our only advantage is that their fades are gonna come a little bit later, which isn't as big a deal as people think it is - aliens in an organised group are really powerful this build.
I think Flayra hit it on the head when he said "it seems pretty close to an "all-in"". It really should be an all-in, in every sense. Stopping something like that should give the Marines a better advantage than just "Well, I guess it's another minute or so before we see fades". It should mean that marines get insane map control for the next few minutes, or the potential to properly counter the alien base.
So in conclusion, a lerk all-in like the one demonstrated in game 2 shouldn't be so powerful.
1) An all-in should have the potential to be stopped, which it doesn't with this strategy, without all-inning the Aliens first, and should also give the marines some kind of proper advantage.
2) Lerks flapping up and down like crazy should be addressed, it looks stupid (coming from a spectator's PoV) and it's not fun to fight against, (I personally think flapping should cost adrenaline, with a delay between flapping and regaining your adrenaline) but I guess that doesn't have much to do with this.
3) Marines should have some form of early repair system, having to repair only through getting a Robo Fac + MAC (25 Tres!) is too much, and lends itself way towards "Build-order winning", which is something that should be avoided. I dunno if welders are supposed to repair buildings, but it's still gonna cost 10 Tres to research, then marines have to buy them, which then lends itself to aliens getting an even bigger advantage even if all the lerks die, all of which takes time and gives the skulks time to regroup and merely rush the last bit of health on the Command Station.
4) Fix the alien resource system, as Fana suggested. Lerk-rush all-in would probably be stoppable if it happened a few minutes later.
5) Another way to possibly fix the Lerk-All-In is to make spawn queues for aliens more demanding. Say, a random skulk or two dies, they get the normal amount of time before respawning, but if a ton die at the same time (basically an all-in), the times between respawning becomes greater. So, skulk 1 respawns normally, skulk 2 has an additional 2 seconds + normal respawn time, skulk 3 has an additional 4 seconds + normal time etc. It would buy time for marines to reform in whichever way they choose.
It's not my place to demand game changes, but I hope the things I suggested gets at least a bit of thought. I hope Flayra and the rest of you respond to this, it's a really interesting topic, and being proven wrong with examples is a great way to learn! It would be quite cool to try fighting this strategy again vs #156 to see what we can come up with beyond just theorycrafting on the forum too. Thanks for taking the time to read this! o/
Im too lazy right now to make a proper response to all the balancing ideas :p very nice tho guys.