<!--quoteo(post=1887599:date=Nov 30 2011, 10:56 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Nov 30 2011, 10:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Chris you seem to be misinformed how leadership in the military works. Yes, soldiers will follow orders as they are trained to do so. But there's a big difference between just going go through the motions and really <i>doing</i> something. Getting your soldiers do to the latter rather than the former is what requires leadership skill. It's a big part in what decides battles. And incidentally is what wins you games in NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't imagine anything that would motivate me to fight properly more than the threat of dying would. I quite like being alive. I resent the fact that other people may wish to prevent me from being so.
<!--quoteo(post=1887607:date=Nov 30 2011, 11:58 AM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Nov 30 2011, 11:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887607"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah the weapons didn't work as a motivation in the end game if you could afford to get JP/HMG for your whole team. But in that point very little motivation was needed anymore and the game was easily win. If the round was more even and you could only afford one or two JP/HMGs you could easily motivate people to work for the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know I'm fairly sure that if I was commander, I wouldn't give guns to the people who did what I told them to, I'd give guns to the people who were best at fighting, because they can use the guns better. It doesn't matter how many extractors you run and build for me, you aren't getting a shotgun if I'm low on funds, because you obviously don't need one.
I think that's how most commanders worked too, generally the people who got the guns were the ones who were fighting and winning the most, because that's what guns are good for.
Really speaking, the best players, the ones most likely to get guns, weren't the ones who obeyed orders, they were the ones who didn't need orders, because they just went around killing everything and capturing resource nodes. I suppose they may have incidentally been beneficial to the team, but I doubt they were playing the game with the team in mind. You could achieve exactly the same effect by saying 'I want to go shoot aliens, there will probably be aliens at the res nodes, let's gather a group of people together and shoot aliens at the resource nodes.'
<!--quoteo(post=1887613:date=Nov 30 2011, 12:50 PM:name=zippy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zippy @ Nov 30 2011, 12:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A comm is only as good as his team, if his team can't shoot focus the right bits it's over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's another thing, no matter how good the commander/player interaction is, it doesn't do any good if your team can't shoot.
Many a time I've been giving orders and players have been technically obeying them, as in they go to the place I tell them to and try to perform the task, but whenever it comes to something like 'go in there and kill the aliens for me' they fail miserably.
Or other times, I've had someone who consistently disobeys orders, but he single handedly holds a room against waves of skulks. I like him a hell of a lot more than I do the obedient players because even if I can't command him, I don't need to. I just capitalise on his achievements.
It has nothing to do with commander/player interaction, it's because the team sucks or the other team is better. I can't motivate them to shoot and see better.
The best way to win in NS is to join the team with the better players.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1887625:date=Nov 30 2011, 04:10 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 30 2011, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't imagine anything that would motivate me to fight properly more than the threat of dying would. I quite like being alive. I resent the fact that other people may wish to prevent me from being so.
You know I'm fairly sure that if I was commander, I wouldn't give guns to the people who did what I told them to, I'd give guns to the people who were best at fighting, because they can use the guns better. It doesn't matter how many extractors you run and build for me, you aren't getting a shotgun if I'm low on funds, because you obviously don't need one.
I think that's how most commanders worked too, generally the people who got the guns were the ones who were fighting and winning the most, because that's what guns are good for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with everything you say in here. But as I said earlier in NS1 you could use the weapons to motivate even the highly skilled players to build stuff and do other mundane tasks that benefit the team. In NS2 the highly skilled players can focus solely on fighting without any incentive to build stuff for example.
I have to add, even tho' I like to rambo in public (since I would say that I'm pretty okay at aiming) and I can have whatever weapon I want without the need to care about my commanders orders. (but i usually prefer lmg + pistol anyway - even against fades, since the current alternatives are so lacklustre because of too much QQ in past times in this forum...)
It gets really boring fast since its so much harder to win, and games take up to hours to end. ("The journey is the reward." doesnt work for me in ns2 if it takes longer than 1hour)
If I have a good commander, that doest have a crappy build and gives useful orders - I'm happy to help him fulfil his plans and orders to win the game most of the time. And I can still come out with most frags in a game - its not like you repair and build without pause for 15min every game and its not like you are the only one that builds. (i mean i do the same in scrims)
It really only comes down to a good commander or the wish from the player to play the game how its meant to be played. You cant really force the few ppl that play ns2 like CoD to change... if denying ammo medpacks nanoshield or repair from teammates doesnt help, a weapon system like ns1 wouldnt help either... especially since you dont really get that much more powerfull with other weapons currently. (i would even say some weapons like the flamethrower or shotgun make me even worse currently :P, rambo doesnt work for long if i dont get ammo, and running back and forth to an armory is annoying - and if you always die after 1 or 2 aliens, i dont get why you could have fun ramboing, since you obviously are pretty bad in solo actions)
Also we need a more educated playerbase in ns2 mechanics if you ask me - and that only takes time and maybe a little work from us, the community(also a bit from devs, but tutorials etc will come in the future i guess) - we need to learn freshmen how this can be played to even have more fun. (i think scrim videos on youtube are a good start, using a lot more voice on servers would be some other, maybe call out ppl that dont want to play with the team - maybe even kick them for a few minutes)
PS: what i would like to get rid of, are macs - or at least change them a lot so you cant have more than one per CC but have it from start (but they ll only cost energy, or auto respawn after they die, more health, needs a change to mines too) or something like that.
At least it cant stay that i need to waste much res into a tech path i usually dont really want at the beginning until i can repair buildings, and it cant stay that you can have an army of macs repairing everything in 1s from 0-100%
<!--quoteo(post=1887625:date=Nov 30 2011, 04:10 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 30 2011, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't imagine anything that would motivate me to fight properly more than the threat of dying would. I quite like being alive. I resent the fact that other people may wish to prevent me from being so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's your failure of the imagination. NS2 might just not be the right game for you.
<!--quoteo(post=1887519:date=Nov 29 2011, 11:21 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 29 2011, 11:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Response by Chris<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll take it that you are a competitive player and that you think a good commander is skilled, multitasking and can make good decisions without talking to the team. Yes I agree but I think the importance of a good commander in NS2 or a team leader in general is the personality what I earlier mentioned in my previous post. While a build order, tech branching, and good med- ammo- pack dropping can be learned in time and practice. A personality can not as easily be attained (not impossible). I would honestly rather have a nice but "newbie" commander than a skilled but with bad attitude commander. Thought we are both different players and have some different goals and joys when playing. Me myself while I like the process of winning, seeing ridiculous build orders and helping the new commander out I find even more enjoyable.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1887703:date=Nov 30 2011, 03:34 PM:name=Broseidon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Broseidon @ Nov 30 2011, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll take it that you are a competitive player and that you think a good commander is skilled, multitasking and can make good decisions without talking to the team. Yes I agree but I think the importance of a good commander in NS2 or a team leader in general is the personality what I earlier mentioned in my previous post. While a build order, tech branching, and good med- ammo- pack dropping can be learned in time and practice. A personality can not as easily be attained (not impossible). I would honestly rather have a nice but "newbie" commander than a skilled but with bad attitude commander. Thought we are both different players and have some different goals and joys when playing. Me myself while I like the process of winning, seeing ridiculous build orders and helping the new commander out I find even more enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I agree with the personality being one of the important things for a commander. Had a commander that would do nothing but lay blame on the entire team about how worthless they are. It wasn't surprising to see the entire team ignore him midway through.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1887705:date=Nov 30 2011, 12:45 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Nov 30 2011, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I agree with the personality being one of the important things for a commander. Had a commander that would do nothing but lay blame on the entire team about how worthless they are. It wasn't surprising to see the entire team ignore him midway through.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While this is largely true, I have seen comms (Empires, in particular) who've berated their team to victory. In practice, the comm has to adjust his strategy to the skill level/degree of organization of the team. The problem in the current NS2 beta is that there is basically only a single strategic path to victory (i.e. lockdown nodes -> get tech -> lockdown nodes -> get tech -> etc) with little variation. If my team isn't skilled enough to take and hold res/tech nodes, then as comm there really isn't anything I can do win.
<!--quoteo(post=1887703:date=Nov 30 2011, 08:34 PM:name=Broseidon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Broseidon @ Nov 30 2011, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll take it that you are a competitive player and that you think a good commander is skilled, multitasking and can make good decisions without talking to the team. Yes I agree but I think the importance of a good commander in NS2 or a team leader in general is the personality what I earlier mentioned in my previous post. While a build order, tech branching, and good med- ammo- pack dropping can be learned in time and practice. A personality can not as easily be attained (not impossible). I would honestly rather have a nice but "newbie" commander than a skilled but with bad attitude commander. Thought we are both different players and have some different goals and joys when playing. Me myself while I like the process of winning, seeing ridiculous build orders and helping the new commander out I find even more enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually no, I have zero competitive drive, I've yet to find anything worth winning.
I require the commander to be very good at what he does because the game is simply unplayable if he isn't. I don't play NS to socialise, I play it because I find the mechanics entertaining. Unfortunately those mechanics rely on the commander performing their job without messing up. If I have to choose between 'nice' commanding and effective commanding, I don't really see that there is a choice there.
If the commander isn't doing his job, there isn't really any point playing the game, it's just going to be a waste of time because I'm going to spend far more time waiting around for the commander to do what they're supposed to do, or fighting a boring pointless standoff, or waiting for a new game to start, than I would if the commander was competent.
I'd just as soon play it with sufficiently advanced bots if they could play properly. Sadly those aren't available yet.
<!--quoteo(post=1887705:date=Nov 30 2011, 09:45 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Nov 30 2011, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887705"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I agree with the personality being one of the important things for a commander. Had a commander that would do nothing but lay blame on the entire team about how worthless they are. It wasn't surprising to see the entire team ignore him midway through.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sometimes i flame them too:D man, since im playing 99% of my games as comm, you cant imagine how hard sometimes with players but honestly in NS2 the players are quite understanding:)
Comments
I can't imagine anything that would motivate me to fight properly more than the threat of dying would. I quite like being alive. I resent the fact that other people may wish to prevent me from being so.
<!--quoteo(post=1887607:date=Nov 30 2011, 11:58 AM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Nov 30 2011, 11:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887607"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah the weapons didn't work as a motivation in the end game if you could afford to get JP/HMG for your whole team. But in that point very little motivation was needed anymore and the game was easily win. If the round was more even and you could only afford one or two JP/HMGs you could easily motivate people to work for the team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know I'm fairly sure that if I was commander, I wouldn't give guns to the people who did what I told them to, I'd give guns to the people who were best at fighting, because they can use the guns better. It doesn't matter how many extractors you run and build for me, you aren't getting a shotgun if I'm low on funds, because you obviously don't need one.
I think that's how most commanders worked too, generally the people who got the guns were the ones who were fighting and winning the most, because that's what guns are good for.
Really speaking, the best players, the ones most likely to get guns, weren't the ones who obeyed orders, they were the ones who didn't need orders, because they just went around killing everything and capturing resource nodes. I suppose they may have incidentally been beneficial to the team, but I doubt they were playing the game with the team in mind. You could achieve exactly the same effect by saying 'I want to go shoot aliens, there will probably be aliens at the res nodes, let's gather a group of people together and shoot aliens at the resource nodes.'
<!--quoteo(post=1887613:date=Nov 30 2011, 12:50 PM:name=zippy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zippy @ Nov 30 2011, 12:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A comm is only as good as his team, if his team can't shoot focus the right bits it's over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's another thing, no matter how good the commander/player interaction is, it doesn't do any good if your team can't shoot.
Many a time I've been giving orders and players have been technically obeying them, as in they go to the place I tell them to and try to perform the task, but whenever it comes to something like 'go in there and kill the aliens for me' they fail miserably.
Or other times, I've had someone who consistently disobeys orders, but he single handedly holds a room against waves of skulks. I like him a hell of a lot more than I do the obedient players because even if I can't command him, I don't need to. I just capitalise on his achievements.
It has nothing to do with commander/player interaction, it's because the team sucks or the other team is better. I can't motivate them to shoot and see better.
The best way to win in NS is to join the team with the better players.
You know I'm fairly sure that if I was commander, I wouldn't give guns to the people who did what I told them to, I'd give guns to the people who were best at fighting, because they can use the guns better. It doesn't matter how many extractors you run and build for me, you aren't getting a shotgun if I'm low on funds, because you obviously don't need one.
I think that's how most commanders worked too, generally the people who got the guns were the ones who were fighting and winning the most, because that's what guns are good for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with everything you say in here. But as I said earlier in NS1 you could use the weapons to motivate even the highly skilled players to build stuff and do other mundane tasks that benefit the team. In NS2 the highly skilled players can focus solely on fighting without any incentive to build stuff for example.
It wouldn't be very interactive, but it would work. Bribing players with stuff is not generally what I would call teamwork, but it is effective.
It gets really boring fast since its so much harder to win, and games take up to hours to end. ("The journey is the reward." doesnt work for me in ns2 if it takes longer than 1hour)
If I have a good commander, that doest have a crappy build and gives useful orders - I'm happy to help him fulfil his plans and orders to win the game most of the time.
And I can still come out with most frags in a game - its not like you repair and build without pause for 15min every game and its not like you are the only one that builds. (i mean i do the same in scrims)
It really only comes down to a good commander or the wish from the player to play the game how its meant to be played. You cant really force the few ppl that play ns2 like CoD to change... if denying ammo medpacks nanoshield or repair from teammates doesnt help, a weapon system like ns1 wouldnt help either... especially since you dont really get that much more powerfull with other weapons currently. (i would even say some weapons like the flamethrower or shotgun make me even worse currently :P, rambo doesnt work for long if i dont get ammo, and running back and forth to an armory is annoying - and if you always die after 1 or 2 aliens, i dont get why you could have fun ramboing, since you obviously are pretty bad in solo actions)
Also we need a more educated playerbase in ns2 mechanics if you ask me - and that only takes time and maybe a little work from us, the community(also a bit from devs, but tutorials etc will come in the future i guess) - we need to learn freshmen how this can be played to even have more fun. (i think scrim videos on youtube are a good start, using a lot more voice on servers would be some other, maybe call out ppl that dont want to play with the team - maybe even kick them for a few minutes)
PS: what i would like to get rid of, are macs - or at least change them a lot so you cant have more than one per CC but have it from start (but they ll only cost energy, or auto respawn after they die, more health, needs a change to mines too) or something like that.
At least it cant stay that i need to waste much res into a tech path i usually dont really want at the beginning until i can repair buildings, and it cant stay that you can have an army of macs repairing everything in 1s from 0-100%
That's your failure of the imagination. NS2 might just not be the right game for you.
Game is very frustrating, or I unrealistic standards on the team :)
I'm looking forward to having vac.
I'll take it that you are a competitive player and that you think a good commander is skilled, multitasking and can make good decisions without talking to the team. Yes I agree but I think the importance of a good commander in NS2 or a team leader in general is the personality what I earlier mentioned in my previous post. While a build order, tech branching, and good med- ammo- pack dropping can be learned in time and practice. A personality can not as easily be attained (not impossible). I would honestly rather have a nice but "newbie" commander than a skilled but with bad attitude commander. Thought we are both different players and have some different goals and joys when playing. Me myself while I like the process of winning, seeing ridiculous build orders and helping the new commander out I find even more enjoyable.
Yeah, I agree with the personality being one of the important things for a commander. Had a commander that would do nothing but lay blame on the entire team about how worthless they are. It wasn't surprising to see the entire team ignore him midway through.
While this is largely true, I have seen comms (Empires, in particular) who've berated their team to victory. In practice, the comm has to adjust his strategy to the skill level/degree of organization of the team. The problem in the current NS2 beta is that there is basically only a single strategic path to victory (i.e. lockdown nodes -> get tech -> lockdown nodes -> get tech -> etc) with little variation. If my team isn't skilled enough to take and hold res/tech nodes, then as comm there really isn't anything I can do win.
Actually no, I have zero competitive drive, I've yet to find anything worth winning.
I require the commander to be very good at what he does because the game is simply unplayable if he isn't. I don't play NS to socialise, I play it because I find the mechanics entertaining. Unfortunately those mechanics rely on the commander performing their job without messing up. If I have to choose between 'nice' commanding and effective commanding, I don't really see that there is a choice there.
If the commander isn't doing his job, there isn't really any point playing the game, it's just going to be a waste of time because I'm going to spend far more time waiting around for the commander to do what they're supposed to do, or fighting a boring pointless standoff, or waiting for a new game to start, than I would if the commander was competent.
I'd just as soon play it with sufficiently advanced bots if they could play properly. Sadly those aren't available yet.
Sometimes i flame them too:D man, since im playing 99% of my games as comm, you cant imagine how hard sometimes with players but honestly in NS2 the players are quite understanding:)