Natural Selection 2 News Update - Occlusion culling interview

FlayraFlayra Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
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  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    atmospheric lighting allegedly back in build 188? vary nice.
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  • KalabalanaKalabalana Join Date: 2003-11-14 Member: 22859Members
    Glad we got the update on how things are going!
    Looking forward to the future implementations of occlusion culling and dynamic lighting in the Spark engine!
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  • NeonwarriorNeonwarrior Join Date: 2011-08-10 Member: 115568Members
    All I care about is performance improvements and optimization. I also don't like to have to increase my volume every time I play this game just so I can (barely) hear someone talking.
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  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    Also an artist tool for state machine setup is one of the coolest things I've heard about in an SDK.
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  • slimeslime Join Date: 2010-07-14 Member: 72352Members
    I really enjoy these kind of interviews. Awesome!
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  • juicejuice Join Date: 2003-01-28 Member: 12886Members, Constellation
    Does the increased cpu demand with its parallelizable occlusion calcs now mean that there will be an even greater benefit from an implementation of multi-core/multi-threading? Will we see that next on the performance optimization front?
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  • JibrailJibrail Join Date: 2009-04-16 Member: 67200Members
    Great interview Hugh and Max, I really enjoyed it and I would love to see more stuff like this if possible.
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  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=1881746:date=Oct 25 2011, 09:10 AM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (juice @ Oct 25 2011, 09:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does the increased cpu demand with its parallelizable occlusion calcs now mean that there will be an even greater benefit from an implementation of multi-core/multi-threading? Will we see that next on the performance optimization front?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It's important to note that Max <b>did not</b> say that the new occlusion system would result in increased CPU utlilisation.

    He said that currently, occlusion culling is performed by the CPU and GPU in concert. The communication between the CPU and GPU is clearly identified by Max as a performance inefficiency. In the new system, the culling will be performed by the CPU alone.

    That this would increase CPU utilisation does not necessarily follow. Based on what Max said, we do not know if CPU utilisation will go up or down in the new system. The efficiencies gained by removing removing the GPU from the equation could increase or decrease utilisation. We just don't know, and as none (or very few) of us are engine programmers, there's not much use in speculating.

    The only sure thing is that B188 is going to be very exciting!
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  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    @ 4.38 he says "tomorows build"
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  • KalabalanaKalabalana Join Date: 2003-11-14 Member: 22859Members
    Looking forward to multi-threaded/core occlusion culling, in NS2 my processor has cycles to spare that my 5870 does not!
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  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    I wonder how it will perform on my cpu bottle-necked machine.
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  • RockyMarcRockyMarc Join Date: 2009-11-24 Member: 69519Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Damn I have no sound at wooooork! argh.
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  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1881759:date=Oct 25 2011, 12:28 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Oct 25 2011, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@ 4.38 he says "tomorows build"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    good catch but could be an internal milestone
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  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1881782:date=Oct 24 2011, 08:36 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Oct 24 2011, 08:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->good catch but could be an internal milestone<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Right; "tomorrow's build" might well mean the build that the team is working on or testing tomorrow.
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  • John.John. Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127202Members
    He was using an example about compiling a map to see the lighting. Ie compiling a new map lighting build and then seeing what it looks like in game...
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  • MOOtantMOOtant Join Date: 2010-06-25 Member: 72158Members
    This PDF might explain some of it I think: (I haven't finished reading it yet though)

    <a href="http://cmpmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o1/vault/gdc2011/slides/Daniel_Collin_Programming_Culling_The_Battlefield.pdf.pdf" target="_blank">http://cmpmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o1/vault/gdc2...lefield.pdf.pdf</a>
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  • MaxMax Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment Join Date: 2002-03-15 Member: 318Super Administrators, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    edited October 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1881790:date=Oct 24 2011, 07:16 PM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Oct 24 2011, 07:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This PDF might explain some of it I think: (I haven't finished reading it yet though)

    <a href="http://cmpmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o1/vault/gdc2011/slides/Daniel_Collin_Programming_Culling_The_Battlefield.pdf.pdf" target="_blank">http://cmpmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o1/vault/gdc2...lefield.pdf.pdf</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The system I've implemented is pretty much identical to what Daniel describes (I attended this presentation at GDC and shamelessly copied them).

    <!--quoteo(post=1881789:date=Oct 24 2011, 07:12 PM:name=John.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (John. @ Oct 24 2011, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881789"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He was using an example about compiling a map to see the lighting. Ie compiling a new map lighting build and then seeing what it looks like in game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Exactly.
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  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    Nice video. Now interview Charlie :P
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  • nUfl0wnUfl0w Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42412Members
    i like!
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  • EldonEldon Join Date: 2010-07-15 Member: 72414Members, Constellation
    That was an awesome video. I can probably speak with a lot of players when I say that any news on performance or engine work is extremely exciting!
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  • macmacmacmac Join Date: 2006-11-01 Member: 58170Members
    Love the technical posts!
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  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    Very nice interview, this kind of communication have been lacking a bit, you should do something like thing every two weeks or so.
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  • DestroidDestroid Join Date: 2011-10-25 Member: 129240Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1881756:date=Oct 25 2011, 10:14 AM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Oct 25 2011, 10:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's important to note that Max <b>did not</b> say that the new occlusion system would result in increased CPU utlilisation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I don't see how it could result in anything else. He is taking a system that was previously shared between CPU and GPU and running it exclusively on CPU. Of course, if NS2 is not particularly CPU intensive then this will have an overall performance gain (especially to frame rate stability), by eliminating latencies introduced by shuttling data between the CPU and GPU, or having one wait idle for the other. Shooters typically have low CPU loads and high GPU loads so it should result in improved performance.
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  • slimeslime Join Date: 2010-07-14 Member: 72352Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1881866:date=Oct 25 2011, 08:40 AM:name=Destroid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destroid @ Oct 25 2011, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881866"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see how it could result in anything else. He is taking a system that was previously shared between CPU and GPU and running it exclusively on CPU. Of course, if NS2 is not particularly CPU intensive then this will have an overall performance gain (especially to frame rate stability), by eliminating latencies introduced by shuttling data between the CPU and GPU, or having one wait idle for the other. Shooters typically have low CPU loads and high GPU loads so it should result in improved performance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It might not exactly "improve CPU usage", but from what I understand with the current system the CPU has to spend ages just waiting for the GPU, doing nothing at all and preventing anything else from happening, so I think it will definitely improve CPU utilization.
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  • PistachioPistachio Join Date: 2005-05-26 Member: 52481Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1881823:date=Oct 25 2011, 12:49 AM:name=Eldon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Eldon @ Oct 25 2011, 12:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That was an awesome video. I can probably speak with a lot of players when I say that any news on performance or engine work is extremely exciting!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I would further add that <i>any </i>news at all is exciting. I lot of us really enjoy, and look forward to, hearing about what's going on behind the scenes at Unknown Worlds. Learning about the development of NS2 has been just as interesting as actually playing, and it gets me even more excited for the game I already love. I think a lot of us in the community really value being able to watch NS2 evolve first hand. This is a great example of that.

    Keep stuff like this coming. It holds our attention well.
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  • d0ublethinkd0ublethink Join Date: 2010-07-14 Member: 72362Members
    Max,

    Wouldn't leveraging CUDA or OpenCL make more sense for a GPU based task???

    What kind of overhead is this going to introduce to the CPU? Aren't physics already heavily relying on it?

    I understand the need to run them with affinity on the same chip to stop hitches and really optimize it, but shouldn't it go the other way?

    Either way its ambitious and will greatly help, no doubt. Just a thought.

    -Mike
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  • moses-moses- Join Date: 2011-10-22 Member: 128826Members
    Good to see you guys working on the engine/optimization as well as implementing new systems to ease the production process along. Cool to hear from the dev's, keep up the good work.
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  • BoBiNoUBoBiNoU Join Date: 2007-12-27 Member: 63274Members
    Awesome video Hugh !

    MOAAAAR with Charlie now :D
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  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    So, will this new system have players load the marine/alien start geometry while in the ready room prior to joining a team? I'm sure that would help reduce the hitching when joining a team.
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  • hottunahottuna Join Date: 2008-01-17 Member: 63430Members
    Really interesting stuff. I'd like to see more of it, if it doesn't take way too much time.
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