fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2011
The play testers are too few in number to simulate all of you guys. The fact that you're finding broken things means you're the first person to see it.
You should all feel important, if you're actively breaking the game and reporting bugs. You're being play testers!
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1878681:date=Oct 8 2011, 01:18 PM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Oct 8 2011, 01:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to be an ass, but you knew this was going to happen.
UWE takes a month and a half to release a stable version of their game, and within an hour of release, it's clear that this build is one of the least stable versions of recent memory.
This makes me curious as to the thoroughness of the playtesting process. I realize not all bugs will be found through internal playtesting alone, and I don't expect every build to be completely bug-free and polished, but it seems something as obvious as server-crashing issues should be resolved before release.
I'm a fan of the smaller, more frequent updates (weekly, bimonthly) because it involves the community more in the bug-crushing process. By withholding updates from the community for so long (1+ month), people lose interest, and then expect something extraordinary. When the build fails to live up to its hype with game-breaking problems, it only makes the loss of interest more intense.
Why not involve the community more in playtesting? After all, it is a beta. My suggestion would be to release a weekly update with the fixes and having the game partially broken, so that the community can help speed up identifying bugs and problems. Makes more sense rather than waiting longer with the same results.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You play the same builds the play testers do.
If you can't be happy playing a buggy game, go make your own perfect video game, or come back in a while.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1878712:date=Oct 8 2011, 03:30 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Oct 8 2011, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe they need a larger playtesting team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are a play tester. You act like you want something that's being kept from you, and it's not. If you want to be a play tester, go play test, you already are one.
Literally the only difference between being you and being me is I can see some stuff that you can't. It's the same game under the hood.
<!--quoteo(post=1878707:date=Oct 8 2011, 12:01 PM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ Oct 8 2011, 12:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even on a listen server, things feel about a quarter second behind. If I'm shooting an egg, I can stop when it displays 30% health and it will end up dying. As a fade, if I'm being shot by a sentry, I can enter blink mode and continue to take damage for a brief period after.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everything the client sees is 0.15s behind the state of the server to allow for interpolation on the client. If you're familiar with the Source engine, this is the same as the "cl_interp" cvar. I believe Source eliminates this mechanism for a listen server since the engine is also used for single player games; since we're not doing single player there's no reason to add that special case. We used to use the same value as the Source default (0.1s), but in an earlier patch I increased it an additional 50ms to make the game play better on servers with low tick rates. Once we get the server rate problems fixed I'll reduce it.
<!--quoteo(post=1878681:date=Oct 8 2011, 10:18 AM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Oct 8 2011, 10:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE takes a month and a half to release a stable version of their game, and within an hour of release, it's clear that this build is one of the least stable versions of recent memory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you are seeing stability issues other than the gm-overmind compatibility problem that player <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=112026&view=findpost&p=1878615" target="_blank">fixed</a> please e-mail me at max@unknownworlds.com.
Thoughts from someone who hasn't played since April:
- Massive performance increase. Still needs more but definitely an impressive upgrade - Netcode very close to being ready. Just some warping which might be server-related! - Dynamic lighting = awesome - The engine has that "X-factor" where everything can be picked out. Not that hazy-######-photo-realism ala Frostbite 2 etc. Thumbs up - The sound levels seem off. FX need to be louder than others, even taking the volume sliders into account - LMG sound needs more bass - The marine animation makes it look like he's sliding over the floor - Hope that a minimap becomes part of the HUD (not just the press-to-use it is now) - Your POV doesn't seem to cleanly match your model- it's not instinctive trying to jump over ledges - Skulking seems really boring at the moment. There's not a lot to it? - It feels as if mouse sensitivity lowers when skulk-biting? Maybe the mouth animation is causing fps to drop a bit, but it seems to get harder to turn when going for a marine's feet - Would like more/better howls of pain/blood sprites when a marine damges an alien. There's not much feedback from your own guns, and none from a team-mate's
<!--quoteo(post=1878713:date=Oct 8 2011, 08:33 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Oct 8 2011, 08:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You play the same builds the play testers do.
If you can't be happy playing a buggy game, go make your own perfect video game, or come back in a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You sir are getting angry and being fanboyish. Welcome to the internal playtester team then.
You should be on the PR payroll under 'spin doctor'.
<!--quoteo(post=1878724:date=Oct 8 2011, 04:30 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Max @ Oct 8 2011, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everything the client sees is 0.15s behind the state of the server to allow for interpolation on the client. If you're familiar with the Source engine, this is the same as the "cl_interp" cvar. I believe Source eliminates this mechanism for a listen server since the engine is also used for single player games; since we're not doing single player there's no reason to add that special case. We used to use the same value as the Source default (0.1s), but in an earlier patch I increased it an additional 50ms to make the game play better on servers with low tick rates. Once we get the server rate problems fixed I'll reduce it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, thanks for that explanation Max!
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1878733:date=Oct 8 2011, 05:13 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Oct 8 2011, 05:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You sir are getting angry and being fanboyish. Welcome to the internal playtester team then.
You should be on the PR payroll under 'spin doctor'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not drinking the cool aid, I'm telling you something, and you don't want to hear it. When I load up the game, I see some stuff you can't, but its the same game. Sorry to break the news to you.
<!--quoteo(post=1878745:date=Oct 8 2011, 10:48 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Oct 8 2011, 10:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878745"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not drinking the cool aid, I'm telling you something, and you don't want to hear it. When I load up the game, I see some stuff you can't, but its the same game. Sorry to break the news to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry your Royal Highness. You sir are the ultimate master of seeing in-game and I should learn to look at it with those eyes. MAYBE I NEED THE COOL AID!?!?!
the patch notes are impressive to read, much done, much fixed.
unfortunately, after testing the patch i must admit this is the worst patch ive had the honor to test until now. performance drops the fps to 5-10 sometimes (i7 6gb gtx275). i dont have any models for the alien team, which can be fixed by tabbing to desktop and back again. still theres no names for the kills in the upper right corner.
lerk spores seem to have a huge impact on performance, too. that could be coincidence as i wasnt willing to play any longer. even opening the menu by pressing escape took about 15 secs because of that decrease of performance :(
looking forward to see most of the bugs fixed on monday, and im fking excited to see t3 inc in patch 188 then!
<!--quoteo(post=1878724:date=Oct 8 2011, 09:30 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Max @ Oct 8 2011, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everything the client sees is 0.15s behind the state of the server to allow for interpolation on the client. If you're familiar with the Source engine, this is the same as the "cl_interp" cvar. I believe Source eliminates this mechanism for a listen server since the engine is also used for single player games; since we're not doing single player there's no reason to add that special case. We used to use the same value as the Source default (0.1s), but in an earlier patch I increased it an additional 50ms to make the game play better on servers with low tick rates. Once we get the server rate problems fixed I'll reduce it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would really like the option to set this to 0 (and to allow players to manually adjust it like source). While having interp on in source games can help gameplay look smoother, all the competitive gamers turn it off because it makes hit registration worse.
Here's an example from day of defeat source with the default cl_interp settings: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfiMGMiRDZE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfiMGMiRDZE</a>
In this clip the other player had actually rotated a short time earlier but there was a delay in my clients view updating (you can actually see the bullet hole in the wall just as he spins round). I didn't do any damage to him. The blood is rendered client side, but my shot never actually hit him on the server. I haven't had any situations like this with cl_interp 0.
<!--quoteo(post=1878710:date=Oct 8 2011, 02:19 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Oct 8 2011, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The play testers are too few in number to simulate all of you guys. The fact that you're finding broken things means you're the first person to see it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This comment demonstrates the point I'm trying to make: if everyone is a playtester because the game is in beta, why are we (non-internal playtesters) waiting 6+ weeks for an unstable build?
My understanding is that UWE wanted to release a stable, fairly playable build for 186 from which they could add new features in future builds without having to address minor bug issues that have plagued the game for some time. Thus, they spent a longer time (1.5 months) creating 186, and upon release, it had game-crashing issues that were not previously present because the internal playtesting group is too small to find these problems.
Why not go back to a quicker update cycle if the non-internal playtesters are the ones finding the game's problems? My opinion is that NS2 loses a lot of interest with players due to the lack of updates. Players usually come back to play each new build, and then stop after a few days. If builds are going to be released every 4-6 weeks, then you're really only getting a lot of players engaging the game a few days a month, and some become frustrated enough that they either ask for a refund or won't play until the final product is released.
My suggestion is intended to keep interest within the NS2 community while providing the UWE team with a larger playtesting base, which will hopefully speed up their bug-squashing turnaround.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1878755:date=Oct 8 2011, 06:12 PM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Oct 8 2011, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This comment demonstrates the point I'm trying to make: if everyone is a playtester because the game is in beta, why are we (non-internal playtesters) waiting 6+ weeks for an unstable build?
My understanding is that UWE wanted to release a stable, fairly playable build for 186 from which they could add new features in future builds without having to address minor bug issues that have plagued the game for some time. Thus, they spent a longer time (1.5 months) creating 186, and upon release, it had game-crashing issues that were not previously present because the internal playtesting group is too small to find these problems.
Why not go back to a quicker update cycle if the non-internal playtesters are the ones finding the game's problems? My opinion is that NS2 loses a lot of interest with players due to the lack of updates. Players usually come back to play each new build, and then stop after a few days. If builds are going to be released every 4-6 weeks, then you're really only getting a lot of players engaging the game a few days a month, and some become frustrated enough that they either ask for a refund or won't play until the final product is released.
My suggestion is intended to keep interest within the NS2 community while providing the UWE team with a larger playtesting base, which will hopefully speed up their bug-squashing turnaround.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no idea, but personally, I doubt making everyone wait this long was intentional. There is just stuff that's gotta get done, I mean check out the changelogs. It's not as if there's a version of the game that runs phenominally that's being broken every couple of weeks, it's a continual work in progress. If they released these small updates one at a time, or in one big set after making you wait a while, the result is the same. Plus, by making you wait a bit, they can at least track progress according to milestones. If they did a new update every day, more stuff would break, and thus I doubt things would actually feel any better.
The performance increase makes the game so much more enjoyable to play than build 185, had 2 or 3 great games early this morning. It does depend on which server you are playing on though, with some I seem to find myself warping all over the place with 30-40 latency. The HBZ server seems to be the most stable for EU players.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's rarely any indication that you are getting hit other than your health dropping(and the health bar is quite subtle); this needs to be immediate and obvious as it was in NS1. It's difficult to tell if you hit a marine or not; they make no pain sound and there are no sparks or blood and the volume of the hit sound is so low that when it is present(which seems to be only some of the time) it often gets drowned out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ^ Have to agree with this also, there is little to no indication as a skulk or marine when you are being hit at the moment, seems as though the sound has been drowned out.
The sentry gun issue needs to be addressed aswell.
Looking forward to the few small hotfixes on monday, keep up the good work UWE.
This patch is awesome. We waited a long time for this but it was all worth it. Performance really improved and many bugs were fixed. I got a bit tired of NS2 after playing a lot of 185, but now I want to play more, I need to play more ! Keep up the good work !
<!--quoteo(post=1878754:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:11 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Oct 9 2011, 12:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would really like the option to set this to 0 (and to allow players to manually adjust it like source). While having interp on in source games can help gameplay look smoother, all the competitive gamers turn it off because it makes hit registration worse.
Here's an example from day of defeat source with the default cl_interp settings: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfiMGMiRDZE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfiMGMiRDZE</a>
In this clip the other player had actually rotated a short time earlier but there was a delay in my clients view updating (you can actually see the bullet hole in the wall just as he spins round). I didn't do any damage to him. The blood is rendered client side, but my shot never actually hit him on the server. I haven't had any situations like this with cl_interp 0.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You shouldn't talk about topics you haven't understood, leave it to professionals or read code/papers. That's also reason why Valve locked some of the cvars, myths spread like crazy because someone saw something and reported how it was 100x better. For start read: <a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_Networking" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/So...ayer_Networking</a> <a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_compensation" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_compensation</a> and don't omit anything.
And with respect to Source demo replay - it doesn't do it correctly. It's off by cl_interp or something like that, it was hilarious on some TF2 sniper clan video where everyone called guy a cheater.
And last thing, why are you crying that you got killed by the guy before you fired your gun? You spent quite a while on moving mouse around. There are only 2 explanations: a) he fired before you did but message about that took some time to go to server and your computer b) you didn't hit him (quite insane, he was sitting still and you pointed right at him)
The build is definitely laggy and moreover, the hit registration is absolutely terrible, over half my shots are just vanishing, no indication of them hitting anything, let alone what I'm aiming it.
I like the changes but the performance is still as ###### as 185 and I was getting grenades floating in the air then teleporting instead of traveling in a smooth arc at 70 ping.
Just wondering if there is any feed back from the dev's regarding the next bug patch and how is that going?
Thanks for the fps improvement!
2 gripes that I think have already been mentioned but I'll have a b_1_tch about them as well.
1. The LOS issues particularly with the Sentrys really needs to be dealt with.
2. Mac pathing is very bad particularly around Marine Start in NS_Summit.
Other than that its a pretty good build.
P.S LOve ya work Simon but the ARC does sound like a Diesel Flat bed Truck. I'm guessing that the ARC would be powered by a Fuel Cell of some type so a Electric Motor whine combined with a Gas Pressure type sound might be more suitable?
<!--quoteo(post=1878755:date=Oct 8 2011, 11:12 PM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Oct 8 2011, 11:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This comment demonstrates the point I'm trying to make: if everyone is a playtester because the game is in beta, why are we (non-internal playtesters) waiting 6+ weeks for an unstable build?
My understanding is that UWE wanted to release a stable, fairly playable build for 186 from which they could add new features in future builds without having to address minor bug issues that have plagued the game for some time. Thus, they spent a longer time (1.5 months) creating 186, and upon release, it had game-crashing issues that were not previously present because the internal playtesting group is too small to find these problems.
Why not go back to a quicker update cycle if the non-internal playtesters are the ones finding the game's problems? My opinion is that NS2 loses a lot of interest with players due to the lack of updates. Players usually come back to play each new build, and then stop after a few days. If builds are going to be released every 4-6 weeks, then you're really only getting a lot of players engaging the game a few days a month, and some become frustrated enough that they either ask for a refund or won't play until the final product is released.
My suggestion is intended to keep interest within the NS2 community while providing the UWE team with a larger playtesting base, which will hopefully speed up their bug-squashing turnaround.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what game you play but it isn't instable at all. It was a MOD (that is already fixed) that caused the problems! Ok there is some lag and warping going on when the server drops on ticks. After 6h of NS2 I saw 0 crashes after the fix.
<!--quoteo(post=1878778:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:55 AM:name=tyrael64)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tyrael64 @ Oct 9 2011, 12:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines run in slow motion :S
and lerk are so powerfull!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I noticed the lower the average FPS the slower I move. Today I had a buggy ruond running at 30FPS and the skulk walk was just slomo and the other skulks moved much faster than me. After a full restart I played at my average 70FPS and the movement is so much faster. You can see this if a group of marines are running (all with the same gun) some are faster some are slower.
<!--quoteo(post=1878774:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:41 AM:name=Matthew94)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Matthew94 @ Oct 9 2011, 12:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the changes but the performance is still as ###### as 185 and I was getting grenades floating in the air then teleporting instead of traveling in a smooth arc at 70 ping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Next time write net_stats in console an keep an eye on the Server Tickrate 20-30 is ok to play if it drops below 15 its really gona be laggy and if it bounces from 1 to 21 to 3 to 12.... Thats also bad. I can run in Marinestart with around 90FPS and a ping of 37ms but if the ticks are low the good numbers are worth nothing and you should change the Server.
Sidenote. I noticed that when you keep pressing F to get a strobolight it kills your FPS after around 3s, you lose around 70%.
<!--quoteo(post=1878770:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:16 AM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Oct 9 2011, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You shouldn't talk about topics you haven't understood, leave it to professionals or read code/papers. That's also reason why Valve locked some of the cvars, myths spread like crazy because someone saw something and reported how it was 100x better. For start read: <a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_Networking" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/So...ayer_Networking</a> <a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_compensation" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_compensation</a> and don't omit anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've read them, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. Please tell me what I said that is inaccurate which prompted you to post this reply.
My problem with interpolation is you aren't actually seeing what is happening on the server. It makes player movement seem less jerky but hit registration can be poor especially against clients with low fps.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And last thing, why are you crying that you got killed by the guy before you fired your gun? You spent quite a while on moving mouse around. There are only 2 explanations: a) he fired before you did but message about that took some time to go to server and your computer b) you didn't hit him (quite insane, he was sitting still and you pointed right at him)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what you're talking about here either. I fired my gun. My crosshair was directly between the guys eyes. Blood appeared on his face. No hit registered.
What happened was that he rotated around but because of the delay, on my screen he was still facing the other way when I shot. It didn't register on the server because he rotated and the bullet actually just missed the back of his neck. Watch it again and look where the bullet hole is in the wall and his position after he rotates.
I have noticed that while playing NS2, sometimes I will stop firing my weapon at a skulk (to reload for example) and the skulk will die a second later. It feels really weird and unresponsive. I'm not sure if this is all down to interpolation or if there is something more going on.
<!--quoteo(post=1878785:date=Oct 9 2011, 01:32 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Oct 9 2011, 01:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've read them, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. Please tell me what I said that is inaccurate which prompted you to post this reply.
My problem with interpolation is you aren't actually seeing what is happening on the server. It makes player movement seem less jerky but hit registration can be poor especially against clients with low fps.
I don't know what you're talking about here either. I fired my gun. My crosshair was directly between the guys eyes. Blood appeared on his face. No hit registered.
What happened was that he rotated around but because of the delay, on my screen he was still facing the other way when I shot. It didn't register on the server because he rotated and the bullet actually just missed the back of his neck. Watch it again and look where the bullet hole is in the wall and his position after he rotates.
I have noticed that while playing NS2, sometimes I will stop firing my weapon at a skulk (to reload for example) and the skulk will die a second later. It feels really weird and unresponsive. I'm not sure if this is all down to interpolation or if there is something more going on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Happend alot for me in CS with the wrong cl_cmdrate/cl_updaterate causing alot of packet loss. Maybe your client that sended a packet, that actually predicted a full hit, just have been lost so the server didn't get the info of your client. Ex_interp oh that good old thing. I found out it is the best to set it at your actual average ping (50ms = 0.05), but if you set it to 0 ( still talking about CS) you had some false hitregs or none. The model appeared to be slower than its hitbox (or was it faster)
<!--quoteo(post=1878785:date=Oct 9 2011, 02:32 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Oct 9 2011, 02:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've read them, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. Please tell me what I said that is inaccurate which prompted you to post this reply.
My problem with interpolation is you aren't actually seeing what is happening on the server. It makes player movement seem less jerky but hit registration can be poor especially against clients with low fps.
I don't know what you're talking about here either. I fired my gun. My crosshair was directly between the guys eyes. Blood appeared on his face. No hit registered.
What happened was that he rotated around but because of the delay, on my screen he was still facing the other way when I shot. It didn't register on the server because he rotated and the bullet actually just missed the back of his neck. Watch it again and look where the bullet hole is in the wall and his position after he rotates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whenever client clicks LMB to fire he sends a packet with LMB pressed to server. After rtt/2 server gets it. Server processes that message, kills player shot in the face and sends it to everyone else (world update). You were probably killed by a guy whose latency was lower than yours, his message got to the server first. What you saw as lack of movement and then maybe slow movement was just what server had at the time (there are also errors in demo playback like I said).
When server receives message with LMB and hits an enemy it rewinds enemy to position at t - rtt/2 - interpolation (100ms for instance). (time flows the same for all computers, more or less and that was the time when person being shot appeared in crosshairs when LMB was pressed) All positions, rotations and animations are kept in small rotating log that drops last entries. Size of the log is enough to properly handle players with latency up to 1000ms.
Blood, muzzle flash and bullets all get predicted at client-side. It will show enemy being hit no matter what happened on the server. If server killed you but you still haven't got that msg it'll appear that you successfully shot the guy which never happened. A tiny bit later you'll die. Since no one can undo this blood (that your client alone created) you're left with a bit weird feeling. :P
As far as I know both of you were firing 1 shot kill weapons so you couldn't have missed, you were just too late. No one cares about where he was on your screen. Server compensates for that delay when checking your "I fired my gun" message by rewinding enemy position in time by interpolation time. I might be wrong but in this case I think he had at most rotated, he never moved so that doesn't even matter.
Comments
You should all feel important, if you're actively breaking the game and reporting bugs. You're being play testers!
UWE takes a month and a half to release a stable version of their game, and within an hour of release, it's clear that this build is one of the least stable versions of recent memory.
This makes me curious as to the thoroughness of the playtesting process. I realize not all bugs will be found through internal playtesting alone, and I don't expect every build to be completely bug-free and polished, but it seems something as obvious as server-crashing issues should be resolved before release.
I'm a fan of the smaller, more frequent updates (weekly, bimonthly) because it involves the community more in the bug-crushing process. By withholding updates from the community for so long (1+ month), people lose interest, and then expect something extraordinary. When the build fails to live up to its hype with game-breaking problems, it only makes the loss of interest more intense.
Why not involve the community more in playtesting? After all, it is a beta. My suggestion would be to release a weekly update with the fixes and having the game partially broken, so that the community can help speed up identifying bugs and problems. Makes more sense rather than waiting longer with the same results.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You play the same builds the play testers do.
If you can't be happy playing a buggy game, go make your own perfect video game, or come back in a while.
You are a play tester. You act like you want something that's being kept from you, and it's not. If you want to be a play tester, go play test, you already are one.
Literally the only difference between being you and being me is I can see some stuff that you can't. It's the same game under the hood.
Everything the client sees is 0.15s behind the state of the server to allow for interpolation on the client. If you're familiar with the Source engine, this is the same as the "cl_interp" cvar. I believe Source eliminates this mechanism for a listen server since the engine is also used for single player games; since we're not doing single player there's no reason to add that special case. We used to use the same value as the Source default (0.1s), but in an earlier patch I increased it an additional 50ms to make the game play better on servers with low tick rates. Once we get the server rate problems fixed I'll reduce it.
If you are seeing stability issues other than the gm-overmind compatibility problem that player <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=112026&view=findpost&p=1878615" target="_blank">fixed</a> please e-mail me at max@unknownworlds.com.
- Massive performance increase. Still needs more but definitely an impressive upgrade
- Netcode very close to being ready. Just some warping which might be server-related!
- Dynamic lighting = awesome
- The engine has that "X-factor" where everything can be picked out. Not that hazy-######-photo-realism ala Frostbite 2 etc. Thumbs up
- The sound levels seem off. FX need to be louder than others, even taking the volume sliders into account
- LMG sound needs more bass
- The marine animation makes it look like he's sliding over the floor
- Hope that a minimap becomes part of the HUD (not just the press-to-use it is now)
- Your POV doesn't seem to cleanly match your model- it's not instinctive trying to jump over ledges
- Skulking seems really boring at the moment. There's not a lot to it?
- It feels as if mouse sensitivity lowers when skulk-biting? Maybe the mouth animation is causing fps to drop a bit, but it seems to get harder to turn when going for a marine's feet
- Would like more/better howls of pain/blood sprites when a marine damges an alien. There's not much feedback from your own guns, and none from a team-mate's
If you can't be happy playing a buggy game, go make your own perfect video game, or come back in a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You sir are getting angry and being fanboyish. Welcome to the internal playtester team then.
You should be on the PR payroll under 'spin doctor'.
Ah, thanks for that explanation Max!
You should be on the PR payroll under 'spin doctor'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not drinking the cool aid, I'm telling you something, and you don't want to hear it. When I load up the game, I see some stuff you can't, but its the same game. Sorry to break the news to you.
I'm sorry your Royal Highness. You sir are the ultimate master of seeing in-game and I should learn to look at it with those eyes. MAYBE I NEED THE COOL AID!?!?!
unfortunately, after testing the patch i must admit this is the worst patch ive had the honor to test until now. performance drops the fps to 5-10 sometimes (i7 6gb gtx275).
i dont have any models for the alien team, which can be fixed by tabbing to desktop and back again. still theres no names for the kills in the upper right corner.
lerk spores seem to have a huge impact on performance, too. that could be coincidence as i wasnt willing to play any longer. even opening the menu by pressing escape took about 15 secs because of that decrease of performance :(
looking forward to see most of the bugs fixed on monday, and im fking excited to see t3 inc in patch 188 then!
keep up the good work UWE
I would really like the option to set this to 0 (and to allow players to manually adjust it like source). While having interp on in source games can help gameplay look smoother, all the competitive gamers turn it off because it makes hit registration worse.
Here's an example from day of defeat source with the default cl_interp settings: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfiMGMiRDZE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfiMGMiRDZE</a>
In this clip the other player had actually rotated a short time earlier but there was a delay in my clients view updating (you can actually see the bullet hole in the wall just as he spins round). I didn't do any damage to him. The blood is rendered client side, but my shot never actually hit him on the server. I haven't had any situations like this with cl_interp 0.
This comment demonstrates the point I'm trying to make: if everyone is a playtester because the game is in beta, why are we (non-internal playtesters) waiting 6+ weeks for an unstable build?
My understanding is that UWE wanted to release a stable, fairly playable build for 186 from which they could add new features in future builds without having to address minor bug issues that have plagued the game for some time. Thus, they spent a longer time (1.5 months) creating 186, and upon release, it had game-crashing issues that were not previously present because the internal playtesting group is too small to find these problems.
Why not go back to a quicker update cycle if the non-internal playtesters are the ones finding the game's problems? My opinion is that NS2 loses a lot of interest with players due to the lack of updates. Players usually come back to play each new build, and then stop after a few days. If builds are going to be released every 4-6 weeks, then you're really only getting a lot of players engaging the game a few days a month, and some become frustrated enough that they either ask for a refund or won't play until the final product is released.
My suggestion is intended to keep interest within the NS2 community while providing the UWE team with a larger playtesting base, which will hopefully speed up their bug-squashing turnaround.
My understanding is that UWE wanted to release a stable, fairly playable build for 186 from which they could add new features in future builds without having to address minor bug issues that have plagued the game for some time. Thus, they spent a longer time (1.5 months) creating 186, and upon release, it had game-crashing issues that were not previously present because the internal playtesting group is too small to find these problems.
Why not go back to a quicker update cycle if the non-internal playtesters are the ones finding the game's problems? My opinion is that NS2 loses a lot of interest with players due to the lack of updates. Players usually come back to play each new build, and then stop after a few days. If builds are going to be released every 4-6 weeks, then you're really only getting a lot of players engaging the game a few days a month, and some become frustrated enough that they either ask for a refund or won't play until the final product is released.
My suggestion is intended to keep interest within the NS2 community while providing the UWE team with a larger playtesting base, which will hopefully speed up their bug-squashing turnaround.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no idea, but personally, I doubt making everyone wait this long was intentional. There is just stuff that's gotta get done, I mean check out the changelogs. It's not as if there's a version of the game that runs phenominally that's being broken every couple of weeks, it's a continual work in progress. If they released these small updates one at a time, or in one big set after making you wait a while, the result is the same. Plus, by making you wait a bit, they can at least track progress according to milestones. If they did a new update every day, more stuff would break, and thus I doubt things would actually feel any better.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's rarely any indication that you are getting hit other than your health dropping(and the health bar is quite subtle); this needs to be immediate and obvious as it was in NS1. It's difficult to tell if you hit a marine or not; they make no pain sound and there are no sparks or blood and the volume of the hit sound is so low that when it is present(which seems to be only some of the time) it often gets drowned out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ Have to agree with this also, there is little to no indication as a skulk or marine when you are being hit at the moment, seems as though the sound has been drowned out.
The sentry gun issue needs to be addressed aswell.
Looking forward to the few small hotfixes on monday, keep up the good work UWE.
I got a bit tired of NS2 after playing a lot of 185, but now I want to play more, I need to play more !
Keep up the good work !
It was much needed, it had gotten so laggy i put it down for awhile.
Because of the missing lag....Now the new lerk shines to me.
The GL bugs are worked out and it i a solid beast of a weapon.
I love it as a marine...hate it as an alien.
There could possibly be a tweak needed there ...BUT do it later ....onward and upward.
Big applause UW
get some rest before your death metal push.
... and new infestation is nice- obviously not finished, but a big step in the right direction!
Here's an example from day of defeat source with the default cl_interp settings: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfiMGMiRDZE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfiMGMiRDZE</a>
In this clip the other player had actually rotated a short time earlier but there was a delay in my clients view updating (you can actually see the bullet hole in the wall just as he spins round). I didn't do any damage to him. The blood is rendered client side, but my shot never actually hit him on the server. I haven't had any situations like this with cl_interp 0.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You shouldn't talk about topics you haven't understood, leave it to professionals or read code/papers. That's also reason why Valve locked some of the cvars, myths spread like crazy because someone saw something and reported how it was 100x better. For start read:
<a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_Networking" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/So...ayer_Networking</a>
<a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_compensation" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_compensation</a>
and don't omit anything.
And with respect to Source demo replay - it doesn't do it correctly. It's off by cl_interp or something like that, it was hilarious on some TF2 sniper clan video where everyone called guy a cheater.
And last thing, why are you crying that you got killed by the guy before you fired your gun? You spent quite a while on moving mouse around. There are only 2 explanations:
a) he fired before you did but message about that took some time to go to server and your computer
b) you didn't hit him (quite insane, he was sitting still and you pointed right at him)
I really can't play the game in this state.
Thanks for the fps improvement!
2 gripes that I think have already been mentioned but I'll have a b_1_tch about them as well.
1. The LOS issues particularly with the Sentrys really needs to be dealt with.
2. Mac pathing is very bad particularly around Marine Start in NS_Summit.
Other than that its a pretty good build.
P.S LOve ya work Simon but the ARC does sound like a Diesel Flat bed Truck. I'm guessing that the ARC would be powered by a Fuel Cell of some type so a Electric Motor whine combined with a Gas Pressure type sound might be more suitable?
and lerk are so powerfull!
My understanding is that UWE wanted to release a stable, fairly playable build for 186 from which they could add new features in future builds without having to address minor bug issues that have plagued the game for some time. Thus, they spent a longer time (1.5 months) creating 186, and upon release, it had game-crashing issues that were not previously present because the internal playtesting group is too small to find these problems.
Why not go back to a quicker update cycle if the non-internal playtesters are the ones finding the game's problems? My opinion is that NS2 loses a lot of interest with players due to the lack of updates. Players usually come back to play each new build, and then stop after a few days. If builds are going to be released every 4-6 weeks, then you're really only getting a lot of players engaging the game a few days a month, and some become frustrated enough that they either ask for a refund or won't play until the final product is released.
My suggestion is intended to keep interest within the NS2 community while providing the UWE team with a larger playtesting base, which will hopefully speed up their bug-squashing turnaround.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what game you play but it isn't instable at all.
It was a MOD (that is already fixed) that caused the problems!
Ok there is some lag and warping going on when the server drops on ticks. After 6h of NS2 I saw 0 crashes after the fix.
<!--quoteo(post=1878778:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:55 AM:name=tyrael64)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tyrael64 @ Oct 9 2011, 12:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines run in slow motion :S
and lerk are so powerfull!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I noticed the lower the average FPS the slower I move. Today I had a buggy ruond running at 30FPS and the skulk walk was just slomo and the other skulks moved much faster than me.
After a full restart I played at my average 70FPS and the movement is so much faster.
You can see this if a group of marines are running (all with the same gun) some are faster some are slower.
<!--quoteo(post=1878774:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:41 AM:name=Matthew94)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Matthew94 @ Oct 9 2011, 12:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the changes but the performance is still as ###### as 185 and I was getting grenades floating in the air then teleporting instead of traveling in a smooth arc at 70 ping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Next time write net_stats in console an keep an eye on the Server Tickrate 20-30 is ok to play if it drops below 15 its really gona be laggy and if it bounces from 1 to 21 to 3 to 12.... Thats also bad.
I can run in Marinestart with around 90FPS and a ping of 37ms but if the ticks are low the good numbers are worth nothing and you should change the Server.
Sidenote. I noticed that when you keep pressing F to get a strobolight it kills your FPS after around 3s, you lose around 70%.
<a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_Networking" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/So...ayer_Networking</a>
<a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_compensation" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_compensation</a>
and don't omit anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've read them, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. Please tell me what I said that is inaccurate which prompted you to post this reply.
My problem with interpolation is you aren't actually seeing what is happening on the server. It makes player movement seem less jerky but hit registration can be poor especially against clients with low fps.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And last thing, why are you crying that you got killed by the guy before you fired your gun? You spent quite a while on moving mouse around. There are only 2 explanations:
a) he fired before you did but message about that took some time to go to server and your computer
b) you didn't hit him (quite insane, he was sitting still and you pointed right at him)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what you're talking about here either. I fired my gun. My crosshair was directly between the guys eyes. Blood appeared on his face. No hit registered.
What happened was that he rotated around but because of the delay, on my screen he was still facing the other way when I shot. It didn't register on the server because he rotated and the bullet actually just missed the back of his neck. Watch it again and look where the bullet hole is in the wall and his position after he rotates.
I have noticed that while playing NS2, sometimes I will stop firing my weapon at a skulk (to reload for example) and the skulk will die a second later. It feels really weird and unresponsive. I'm not sure if this is all down to interpolation or if there is something more going on.
My problem with interpolation is you aren't actually seeing what is happening on the server. It makes player movement seem less jerky but hit registration can be poor especially against clients with low fps.
I don't know what you're talking about here either. I fired my gun. My crosshair was directly between the guys eyes. Blood appeared on his face. No hit registered.
What happened was that he rotated around but because of the delay, on my screen he was still facing the other way when I shot. It didn't register on the server because he rotated and the bullet actually just missed the back of his neck. Watch it again and look where the bullet hole is in the wall and his position after he rotates.
I have noticed that while playing NS2, sometimes I will stop firing my weapon at a skulk (to reload for example) and the skulk will die a second later. It feels really weird and unresponsive. I'm not sure if this is all down to interpolation or if there is something more going on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Happend alot for me in CS with the wrong cl_cmdrate/cl_updaterate causing alot of packet loss.
Maybe your client that sended a packet, that actually predicted a full hit, just have been lost so the server didn't get the info of your client.
Ex_interp oh that good old thing. I found out it is the best to set it at your actual average ping (50ms = 0.05), but if you set it to 0 ( still talking about CS) you had some false hitregs or none. The model appeared to be slower than its hitbox (or was it faster)
My problem with interpolation is you aren't actually seeing what is happening on the server. It makes player movement seem less jerky but hit registration can be poor especially against clients with low fps.
I don't know what you're talking about here either. I fired my gun. My crosshair was directly between the guys eyes. Blood appeared on his face. No hit registered.
What happened was that he rotated around but because of the delay, on my screen he was still facing the other way when I shot. It didn't register on the server because he rotated and the bullet actually just missed the back of his neck. Watch it again and look where the bullet hole is in the wall and his position after he rotates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whenever client clicks LMB to fire he sends a packet with LMB pressed to server. After rtt/2 server gets it. Server processes that message, kills player shot in the face and sends it to everyone else (world update). You were probably killed by a guy whose latency was lower than yours, his message got to the server first. What you saw as lack of movement and then maybe slow movement was just what server had at the time (there are also errors in demo playback like I said).
When server receives message with LMB and hits an enemy it rewinds enemy to position at t - rtt/2 - interpolation (100ms for instance). (time flows the same for all computers, more or less and that was the time when person being shot appeared in crosshairs when LMB was pressed) All positions, rotations and animations are kept in small rotating log that drops last entries. Size of the log is enough to properly handle players with latency up to 1000ms.
Blood, muzzle flash and bullets all get predicted at client-side. It will show enemy being hit no matter what happened on the server. If server killed you but you still haven't got that msg it'll appear that you successfully shot the guy which never happened. A tiny bit later you'll die. Since no one can undo this blood (that your client alone created) you're left with a bit weird feeling. :P
As far as I know both of you were firing 1 shot kill weapons so you couldn't have missed, you were just too late. No one cares about where he was on your screen. Server compensates for that delay when checking your "I fired my gun" message by rewinding enemy position in time by interpolation time. I might be wrong but in this case I think he had at most rotated, he never moved so that doesn't even matter.