Occupy Wallstreet
I got this from TL <a href="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266537" target="_blank">http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...topic_id=266537</a> , thought It would be interesting to share it.
<a href="https://occupywallst.org/" target="_blank">https://occupywallst.org/</a>
From the website:
- Hide Spoiler -
Our Mission
On the 17th of September, we want to see 20,000 people to flood into lower Manhattan, set up beds, kitchens, peaceful barricades and occupy Wall Street for a few months.
Like our brothers and sisters in Egypt, Greece, Spain, and Iceland, we plan to use the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic of mass occupation to restore democracy in America. We also encourage the use of nonviolence to achieve our ends and maximize the safety of all participants.
Who is Occupy Wall Street?
Occupy Wall Street is leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%.
The original call for this occupation was published by Adbusters in July; since then, many individuals across the country have stepped up to organize this event, such as the people of the NYC General Assembly and US Day of Rage. There'll also be similar occupations in the near future such as October2011 in Freedom Plaza, Washington D.C.
<a href="http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution" target="_blank">http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution</a>
Pretty cool, not a lick on TV
Sorry I know this is a NS2 General Discussion forum, my mistake, got excited. ^^
<a href="https://occupywallst.org/" target="_blank">https://occupywallst.org/</a>
From the website:
- Hide Spoiler -
Our Mission
On the 17th of September, we want to see 20,000 people to flood into lower Manhattan, set up beds, kitchens, peaceful barricades and occupy Wall Street for a few months.
Like our brothers and sisters in Egypt, Greece, Spain, and Iceland, we plan to use the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic of mass occupation to restore democracy in America. We also encourage the use of nonviolence to achieve our ends and maximize the safety of all participants.
Who is Occupy Wall Street?
Occupy Wall Street is leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%.
The original call for this occupation was published by Adbusters in July; since then, many individuals across the country have stepped up to organize this event, such as the people of the NYC General Assembly and US Day of Rage. There'll also be similar occupations in the near future such as October2011 in Freedom Plaza, Washington D.C.
<a href="http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution" target="_blank">http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution</a>
Pretty cool, not a lick on TV
Sorry I know this is a NS2 General Discussion forum, my mistake, got excited. ^^
Comments
<a href="https://occupywallst.org/" target="_blank">https://occupywallst.org/</a>
From the website:
- Hide Spoiler -
Our Mission
On the 17th of September, we want to see 20,000 people to flood into lower Manhattan, set up beds, kitchens, peaceful barricades and occupy Wall Street for a few months.
Like our brothers and sisters in Egypt, Greece, Spain, and Iceland, we plan to use the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic of mass occupation to restore democracy in America. We also encourage the use of nonviolence to achieve our ends and maximize the safety of all participants.
Who is Occupy Wall Street?
Occupy Wall Street is leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%.
The original call for this occupation was published by Adbusters in July; since then, many individuals across the country have stepped up to organize this event, such as the people of the NYC General Assembly and US Day of Rage. There'll also be similar occupations in the near future such as October2011 in Freedom Plaza, Washington D.C.
<a href="http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution" target="_blank">http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution</a>
Pretty cool, not a lick on TV
Sorry I know this is a NS2 General Discussion forum, my mistake, got excited. ^^<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has been going on for about 2 weeks now. Badass to see people actually doing something about all of the corruption in the world and of course you wont see any of that ###### on TV. The government is going to try and suppress it as much as possible.
There's quite a bit of TV and YouTube coverage. Mostly of NYPD over-reacting, or sometimes reacting properly. Turns out slowly marching across a bridge is kinda a ###### move.
It's basically yet another Tea Party, except instead of government excess it's corporate excess. Leaderless, semi-organized, no real platform, but people are pissed and getting vocal.
Although frankly when it started most were there just to be in a protest.
In other news, quite a few different groups organizing around the nation now. So, if you snoop around FaceBook or local groups enough, you can probably find something.
Personally, I think there's better ways to handle this. But that's just my opinion.
Anyways, here's my .02. The movement is bound to failure and subversion if they don't have a specific set of ideas to rally behind. A few things they should really be protesting about (IMO):
1) The Federal Reserve. Trillions and trillions of dollars inflated to bailout the big banks, corporations that needed to fail, and European banks making bad loans. Two separate Qualitative Easing measures to enable the government to continue to prop up an unsustainable welfare\warfare state. This is reducing the value of the dollar, threatening our reserve currency status, and driving up food and energy prices higher which really hurts the poor and middle classes. Granted there is a willing political component to this, but much money is being inflated without congressional approval. Not to mention the historic years long 0% interest discount window.
2) Troublesome legal precedents concerning expanding executive power. CIA kills lists targeting American citizens, and killings by presidential decree (of American citizens) are now considered to be legal by the current administration. This power is likely to be expanded by future administrations beyond the realm of those in active hostilities against the U.S.
3) Displacement of industry to other countries with less than reputable working conditions. There is an aversion to tariffs to protect national industry, and a whole hearted embracing of "free" trade agreements that often do not benefit our countries competitiveness around the world. It is often perceived that protectionist tarrifs are the way of the "old world" and can lead to conflicts between nations.
4) The gradual demise of the U.S. Constitution through binding international treaties. From UN drug treaties (and associated national drug wars) to climate change, all of these have a limiting effect on national sovereignty. Granted we live in a different world than the one in the 1780s, and even as the imperfect document it was, it embodies a powerful philosophy of individual liberty that is often missing from public discourse these days (although its been popping up more as of late).
I could go on and on, but nobody likes a bunch of depressing crap. It's easier to rally against generic "greed" than have a well thought out disposition. I would be surprised if it lasted more than a few months. I think they have their heart in it, just not necessarily their brains.
<a href="http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2011/10/occupy_phoenix_planned_for_oct.php" target="_blank">http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfev...ned_for_oct.php</a>
<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/oct/04/occupy-wall-street-new-york?newsfeed=true" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/ci...k?newsfeed=true</a>
My conservative talking head masters have been harping about it for quite some time. Limbaugh thinks it's funny that some of them call themselves revolutionaries who resist capitalism, yet they are now considering running to the store to get blankets as it gets colder. :/
There's plenty of room for anger, but I don't think it's wise for people to let that anger turn off their minds so that they can't even put together a coherent argument.
Here's another list of demands: <a href="http://coupmedia.org/occupywallstreet/occupy-wall-street-official-demands-2009" target="_blank">http://coupmedia.org/occupywallstreet/occu...al-demands-2009</a>
When you start talking about Matt Damon like he's John Adams, I think you're reaching a bit. However, what no one wants to admit is that the Tea Party and these folks have a lot in common. No matter how it's reported, the basic idea of the Tea Party movement is the return of personal responsibility, regardless of gender, race, or creed. It's not just about big government, but also big corporations.
Sadly, our party system dictates the practical ideals must come secondary to political ones. So, obviously the Tea Party are racist nut jobs, and these protesters are dirty hippy commies.
PS: It's flipping cold for NYC right now (though it's going to warm up a bit this weekend).
I find the entire thing mildly amusing and mostly pointless. I'm not a fan of protests, we live in an information age, if you want to know what's going on in your world you can find it out. If you don't want to know (like the majority of people), a bunch of people camping out and being a public nuisance isn't likely to persuade you to their cause. Yes, protest had a point before, it got ideas and news out to people who wouldn't hear about them other wise. Now, it's just "We are going to make a point", and that doesn't do anything for me (I'm familiar with most of the problems they are complaining about, and I care about them), nor do I suspect it really does anything for those that don't care/know. Sure, a couple of people might go "Wow, man, that's like, totally important" and then forget about it in a couple weeks/months.
Also, in regards to the movement dying out, these are largely people who have been out of work and trying to find a job for months or years. They are fed up, and they have nothing better to do with themselves because there are no jobs for them anyway.
They're already <a href="http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2011/10/05/poll_occupy_wall_street_starts_off_with_favorable_ratings.html" target="_blank">more popular than the tea party and twice as popular as congress</a>
It has been argued that they <a href="http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/why-occupy-wall-street-embodies-real-" target="_blank">embody the ideals of the original tea party more than the tea party movement does</a>
People have been living in tents on Parliament Square in London as part of a peace protest since 2001. When legislation was introduced to kick them off Parliament Square, they moved onto the pavement next to it.
I'm not saying they'll stay that long in New York, just that some people do have it in them.
This has very little to do with capitalism and everything to do with political perversion of capitalism. The central issue is the fact that the wealthiest 1% have a disproportionate say in how the country is run. In fact, the main complaint is that losses were socialised while profits are privatised - i.e. these people are complaining that the US is not practising capitalism.
I submit that there has never been a government that was not run by the elites, and further that there will never be such a government until there are major changes to the human condition. This does not change the fact that governments derive their power from the consent of the people. Protests are legitimate for this very reason.
What I'd like to point out is that any results from a protest that would make the protesters happy are simply the transfer of this government power to a different 1%. Enough of a change so that the people consent again. :P
My hope in our system is not to create reverse oppression out of envy for that power, but the understanding that I, too, have the opportunity to play the game, given hard work and luck. That is a far cry from other times in history.
1) the people against big corporations and big government realize they're on the same side
and
2) they move to effect change by peaceful means and through education of themselves and others
Then we've got a bright future ahead of us.
Sure, the leaders of the tea party may have libertarian ideas at heart, but divorcing that from the bat###### crazies who have flocked to the banner is going to be impossible at this stage.
In his defense, Limbaugh is a complete idiot, he can't help what he says.
Sure, the leaders of the tea party may have libertarian ideas at heart, but divorcing that from the bat###### crazies who have flocked to the banner is going to be impossible at this stage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The tea party is actually funded (and thus led) by massively conservative big business people (The Kochs for starters). They are pro big business (as they are anti tax), there is a very strong presence of conservative Christians (though the more official tea party ideas are not particularly religiously bent), and they have a large number of white middle/lower class being led by the white upper class that they wish to be associated with.
So, yah, they have no relations to the people on wall street who want the govn't to step in and limit big business, cap yearly earnings, and raise the minimum wage. Hell, the Tea Party should want to fire bomb the people on Wall St.
Oh, and any one that calls themselves tea baggers needs to be laughed at.
I believe the opposition labeled them that in order to evoke the laughs. Whether or not actual members have reclaimed it to diffuse the tactic, I don't know.
As far as big government vs big business, as juice has said, they are the same thing. In many places, the brute force approach unions have been using is not so different from what corporations used to do to workers and indentured servants. If there's one thing I do agree with, it's that corporations should not be people, and they should not have so many rights. Corporations should afford their owners some legal protections in the event of bankruptcy or liabilities not due to negligence. These protections provide the boost needed to innovate.
However, corporations should known own or hold wealth. The difference here is that then corporations could not amass huge war chests like Apple (RIP Jobs) has now. Investment in new technology or in politics or wherever must be done with personal funds, and therefore the persons giving the funds own total responsibility for spending them. That's just my thoughts on the matter. I think if you did something like that, you wouldn't need to give government so much power, which is just as bad as creating letting a Board of Directions puppet an artificial person.
Also I think we should outlaw political parties. :P
*proofread...
The religious component of the tea party is what turns me off to that movement, but what you put is also true from what I've observed from a number of others I know that are active in the movement.
<a href="http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/" target="_blank">http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/</a>
^
Wow that is powerful stuff. I'd say many of these issues are directly linked to the runaway inflation of our currency and the related export of good jobs overseas.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men, women, and transgendered—and any other human who is able to elude the tyranny of work for a couple of weeks—are created equal. We gather to be free not of tyranny, but of responsibility and college tuitions. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that a government long established and a nation long prosperous be changed for light and transient causes. So let our demands* be submitted to a candid world.
First, we are imbued with as many inalienable rights as a few thousand college kids and a gaggle of borderline celebrities can concoct, among them a guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment and immediate across-the-board debt forgiveness—even if that debt was acquired taking on a mortgage with a 4.1 percent interest rate and no money down, which, we admit, is a pretty sweet deal in historical context...
...but down with the modern gilded age!
We demand that a Master of Fine Arts in musical theater writing, with a minor in German, become an immutable human right, because education is crucial and rich people can afford to fund unemployment checks until we find jobs or in perpetuity, whichever comes first.
We demand a minimum wage of $10, no ... make it $20. We earned it. And we demand the end of "profiteering," because there is no better way to end joblessness than stopping the growth of capital. We also demand a maximum wage law, because selfish American dreams need a firm ceiling.
We demand the institution of direct democracy, because if a bunch of people say it's OK, it's OK. And everyone deserves to have his or her voice heard. Except Mr. Moneybags, who we demand stop contributing his own money to candidates we disagree with, to issue groups we loathe, and to lobbyists who do not work for organizations featuring "Service," "Employees," "International" and/or "Union" in their title.
We demand the end to bailouts and corporate subsidies, unless we're talking about companies that feature sunflowers or sun rays in their logos, because that's the kind of morally gratifying institution we approve of, and thus, they should totally be fast-tracked and bailed out with your money to bring the fossil fuel economy ("the economy") to an end.
We demand the end to a corrupt Wall Street ("Apple" "your 401(k)") because banks hold too much power. We demand that government consolidate authority so that elected officials can make prudent choices for us. All that cash in banks was printed by the war god Mars and has nothing to do with the voluntary deposits by ordinary Americans, so we do not consider this theft.
We demand the end to corporate censorship, because if we can't force private news organizations to run the types of stories with which we agree, there can't be a healthy democracy. So actually, we demand the end of all corporate news organizations in the name of free speech.
We demand the end to health profiteering, because everyone knows that all the wondrous and lifesaving advances in modern medicine were invented in the People's Democratic Republic of Laos. Smart people work for the good of humanity, not because they're greedy.
We demand these rights because of the mass injustice of being able to freely protest against racism and corporatism without any real fear of imprisonment in the most diverse city on earth. And to the wiseguy who walked by the other day and claimed that I'd be writing this manifesto with a quill pen on parchment paper if it weren't for capitalism, we have two words for you: Koch brothers. Think about it.
This is the fifth communiqué from the 99.9 percent. We are occupying Wall Street, and we're not going home until it gets really cold.
*These grievances are not all-inclusive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And THAT is why I hate protestors.
To any one with a decent education, and a firm grounding in reality it basically reads as:
We are whiny bunch of unemployed fine arts grads that are upset that people don't actually want our trash that we pass off as art, and so we are going to veil our discontent in badly written manifestos against government, society, and people who, like, have too much money man.
To the middle class it reads as:
Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie
To the lower class it reads as:
We are discontent upper class kids who went to college when you couldn't, and now we can't find jobs because we refuse to do the lowly jobs you people do, but don't worry, because we totally think you should join us in this life.
To the wealthy it reads as:
Hey, dad, can we have our allowance back? I know you cut it off after I went to college because you expected me to get an actual job, but, cmon, can't we have it, please?
The ONLY people that appeals to are other crunchy hippy idealists. And they are decidedly NOT the 99%
There are other demands out there that read a lot better (the ones on Coup Media read nicely and put forward some decent ideas), but what people are going to latch onto is not the person being level headed and making rational arguments. It's the entertaining idiot who spews drivel. Admittedly, he will be overshadowed if this actually turns violent, then it will be the rock throwers and the instigators that we all watch.
TLDR version: I hate protests, they tend to end up with the voice of the idiots being heard, not the sane and rational ones.
Oh, and any one that is calling for a total wipe out of dept is a sodding IDIOT who probably has a tonne due to having no actual knowledge of how finance works.
Yeah, but he's funny... when he's not snuggly up the butt of Apple.
Each man is the leader of his life, no other can lead him to his true destiny.
Stability is found is the eternal impermanence, cycle of life. Institutions create a disorder in time as they want each day to be the same. The stability they claim is akin to death.
No one can go against the forces of nature. Seeing nature as disordered shows how sick our societies have become. Today the imbalance is too strong and none of the governments will be able to save themselves from what is destined to happen.
It might take 300 years or more, but none can escape it. For each Man is a King and each Woman a Queen, and each one of us will regain our true self. No man can be God in the place of God. No man can rule over his equals. For man to rule he must make others inferior, the basis of our governments. Different times call for different systems, dependent on the consciousness of the people. In this time global consciousness is rising, and true equals we shall become for a new age in humanity.
Know your place and know the All-Mighty. Only you can set yourself free. Blessings and Joy to you all, live the life you love not the life lent to you :D
If that were true then you should introduce tariffs on state borders. Even better if they're so good let's introduce them at border of every city. I think someone needs to read a bit more Smith.
Let's say there's good A. Cost of A from China is $100. Cost of A from USA is $200. Instead of letting consumers buy A for $100 and save another $100 for other things (like every sane person would do) people are told to spend $100 more just for the sake of "supporting local business". That's clearly insane no matter whether the difference is 100% or even 0.1%. Introduction of tariffs DISTORTS prices of goods by subsidizing certain sectors and penalizing others (everyone who is dependent on cheap A is penalized).
Theoretical Americans producing A for $200 should be paid less OR made redundant. (minimal wage laws, constant money printing called inflation targeting and so on distort it)
A week ago I saw information about tariff on Chinese carbon road bike frames. Frame is sold at China for $500. At import EU imposes:
~20% VAT
~4% basic tariff
~50% "antidump" tariff that is only imposed on those that import less than 300 frames.
In other words cheap Italian ######s that place company sticker on Chinese imported frame sell it for $1500 because government (EU) let's them get away with it. Whole Polish LCD manufacturing base exists only because of tariffs on LCDs from Asia.
Who gets ###### the most? Consumers.
He's funny alright, like in "something smells funny in here."
On the topic of unions, since someone briefly mentioned them: Yes they're demonised. There are people with deep pockets and a vested interest in marginalising unions. You probably see where I'm going with this.
Here's a story: When my father started working at the shipyard, there was a "average deaths per ship built." That number was about one. No, you didn't get that wrong, every ship built claimed the life of one worker, on average. This was simply accepted as "within tolerable limits" by upper management - after all, workers can be replaced. It was the union that changed that, that lobbied hard for safety protocols, safety equipment, safety procedures. And within a decade, that number was practically down to zero. Did this lead to increased revenue? Not provably. Would it have been done at the initiative of someone who only looks at the bottom line? No. Was it worth it? Yes. Unequivocally, undeniably, universally YES, and ###### you and get out of my forum if you think otherwise because you are wrong.
I won't claim that unions are perfect, but they're all you have. Just like there are virtuous employers who genuinely care about their employees, so there are corrupt unions who don't give a ###### about their members and just milk them for money without doing anything constructive. But most employers need someone to look over their shoulder and cough poignantly when they try to ###### you in the ass, and a union is your best shot. They may not be perfect, but they're what you got. You were born into a ###### world, and you need all the help you can get.
And THAT is why I hate protestors.
To any one with a decent education, and a firm grounding in reality it basically reads as:
We are whiny bunch of unemployed fine arts grads that are upset that people don't actually want our trash that we pass off as art, and so we are going to veil our discontent in badly written manifestos against government, society, and people who, like, have too much money man.
To the middle class it reads as:
Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie
To the lower class it reads as:
We are discontent upper class kids who went to college when you couldn't, and now we can't find jobs because we refuse to do the lowly jobs you people do, but don't worry, because we totally think you should join us in this life.
To the wealthy it reads as:
Hey, dad, can we have our allowance back? I know you cut it off after I went to college because you expected me to get an actual job, but, cmon, can't we have it, please?
The ONLY people that appeals to are other crunchy hippy idealists. And they are decidedly NOT the 99%
There are other demands out there that read a lot better (the ones on Coup Media read nicely and put forward some decent ideas), but what people are going to latch onto is not the person being level headed and making rational arguments. It's the entertaining idiot who spews drivel. Admittedly, he will be overshadowed if this actually turns violent, then it will be the rock throwers and the instigators that we all watch.
TLDR version: I hate protests, they tend to end up with the voice of the idiots being heard, not the sane and rational ones.
Oh, and any one that is calling for a total wipe out of dept is a sodding IDIOT who probably has a tonne due to having no actual knowledge of how finance works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's an unfocused movement, like the tea party was at the very beginning. Only it's flowing from the left instead of from the right. Unfortunately this opens it up to the same vulnerabilities as the old democratic party used to have as it was a coalition of different interests.
<a href="http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/" target="_blank">http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/</a>