Group Reward/Assist System Implementation
vizioNz
InversionNS2.com Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24595Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
InversionNS2.com Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24595Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
<div class="IPBDescription">You should be rewarded for your efforts...</div>As many of the current players are noticing, Resources are one of the most crucial things in Natural Selection 2. If you want to purchase that Shotgun or (destroy) the Frontiersmen by going Fade, it all comes down to resources. With the future looking bright with additional upgrades and characters classes such as the Onos and Exoskeleton, the current system of being rewarded for your work will not cut it. How often are you in a server doing work but not being rewarded for it? Are you working in a team, shoot down skulks or healing the front line as a Gorge but not getting credit for it? You should, but the current system does not support this. The person getting that last bullet or in front of that Gorge is getting those points and benefitting more often than not over those that are working as a team but not being thanked.
Recently I spoke with Schimmel offline and brainstormed a way to fix this current system. The game should be rewarding users for staying in squads/swarms and collectively building/defending areas of the map. Being a Rogue (currently) is more of a benefit then working as a team; Natural Selection is built on team work yet it doesn't reward users for working as a team. Schimmel had a concept and I had mine, but in the end he began producing a MixIn that rewards those that are being unnoticed. I would like to introduce the "GroupRewardMixin.lua".
If I am in a group of 3 Marines and I put 70% of the damage, the other Marine puts in 10% and the last one get's the kill on the Skulk, here is how we are rewarded. The third Marine get's the res/points for the kill (let's say 5res; 3points); The next reward goes out to the Marine that put the most damage into the Skulk other than the killer (in this case myself), I get 3res 2points (just an example); The last Marine in the squad still gets rewarded for his 10% damage with 2res and 1point. What this does is reward a user for sticking in a team and collectively working as a unit. How often do you play a game in an organized fashion and actually have team work? It's rare, but applying a system like the GroupRewardMixin will be a step in the right direction.
This same system works for a squad of Marines building an RT/Marine Structure -or- a Swarm of Kharaa taking down an RT/Power Node/Marine structure. Right now, if I see a skulk biting down on a Power Node, I have no incentive to assist him because I know I will not be rewarded for it, however, with the new system, I am anxious to help to be rewarded.
I am not sure how familiar UWE is of this simple system that was built by Schimmel in a couple hours, but I can't stress how effective this would be in creating an environment that rewards us players for working in a team. This system does not hurt users for going rogue or tamper with anything currently in the game, all it simply does is say "Hey, thanks for using the game mechanics the way we want you too".
<b>This MixIn is currently active and can be tested in the latest version of PT Mod btw!</b>
I would love to get some more feedback on this and the overall question to answer is, do you think UWE should consider implementing this in Natural Selection 2?
<b>P.S. - </b>Schimmel hasn't implemented the visual kill stat system where on the top right of the screen it also visually announcing the usage of team work.
<b>Ex: </b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->inv. Tempest + inv. vizioNz <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->(LMG KILLED) <!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->#156.WasabiOne<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.
The GroupRewardMixin.lua can be found here: <a href="http://www.jodriscoll.com/Gaming/NS2/GroupRewardMixin.lua" target="_blank">Download</a>
Recently I spoke with Schimmel offline and brainstormed a way to fix this current system. The game should be rewarding users for staying in squads/swarms and collectively building/defending areas of the map. Being a Rogue (currently) is more of a benefit then working as a team; Natural Selection is built on team work yet it doesn't reward users for working as a team. Schimmel had a concept and I had mine, but in the end he began producing a MixIn that rewards those that are being unnoticed. I would like to introduce the "GroupRewardMixin.lua".
If I am in a group of 3 Marines and I put 70% of the damage, the other Marine puts in 10% and the last one get's the kill on the Skulk, here is how we are rewarded. The third Marine get's the res/points for the kill (let's say 5res; 3points); The next reward goes out to the Marine that put the most damage into the Skulk other than the killer (in this case myself), I get 3res 2points (just an example); The last Marine in the squad still gets rewarded for his 10% damage with 2res and 1point. What this does is reward a user for sticking in a team and collectively working as a unit. How often do you play a game in an organized fashion and actually have team work? It's rare, but applying a system like the GroupRewardMixin will be a step in the right direction.
This same system works for a squad of Marines building an RT/Marine Structure -or- a Swarm of Kharaa taking down an RT/Power Node/Marine structure. Right now, if I see a skulk biting down on a Power Node, I have no incentive to assist him because I know I will not be rewarded for it, however, with the new system, I am anxious to help to be rewarded.
I am not sure how familiar UWE is of this simple system that was built by Schimmel in a couple hours, but I can't stress how effective this would be in creating an environment that rewards us players for working in a team. This system does not hurt users for going rogue or tamper with anything currently in the game, all it simply does is say "Hey, thanks for using the game mechanics the way we want you too".
<b>This MixIn is currently active and can be tested in the latest version of PT Mod btw!</b>
I would love to get some more feedback on this and the overall question to answer is, do you think UWE should consider implementing this in Natural Selection 2?
<b>P.S. - </b>Schimmel hasn't implemented the visual kill stat system where on the top right of the screen it also visually announcing the usage of team work.
<b>Ex: </b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->inv. Tempest + inv. vizioNz <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->(LMG KILLED) <!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->#156.WasabiOne<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.
The GroupRewardMixin.lua can be found here: <a href="http://www.jodriscoll.com/Gaming/NS2/GroupRewardMixin.lua" target="_blank">Download</a>
Comments
to test the new system like the PT event on HBZ 2
buy maybe bevore 186 comes if it comes out bevore sunday it will take some time we can run PT mod again
Every player/structure should have a table of all damage taken for this explicit purpose. What happens when something heals you ask? Well, the regenerated health subtracts evenly from all unique entries in the damage table, so if 5 people did damage, and 5 points are healed, each person in that table's damage count is reduced by 1. This is as fair as it can be, nobody gets more or less points on kill then they should.
But, that presents another problem, as the above system rewards points only on the kill. What if a player nearly kills an Onos 7 times, effectively repelling him from the base long enough for the team to win? He would get no points. I believe in addition to the above, we need a points for damage system. Players get points for damage done. Not sure what the numbers should be, but I think it should scale to the entity, so damage done is based partially on the kill payout in some manner.
Both of these ideas will fairly and effectively reward players for ingame battle. As for tactical rewards, as Vision is getting at, I am fully for it.
Maybe a guard bonus' for players who are a in a room where a player is building something? Savior/avenger bonuses (maybe not, but people like them). Point for following/completing commander orders. Extra points for doing high DPS, or getting kill streaks within certain time periods? Healing from crags gives the commander who laid them points. Resupplies from commanders give points. etc
Sorry this was a quick post, I have a lot more to say on the topic!
/signed
". Being a Rogue (currently) is more of a benefit then working as a team;"
You are a bloody liar, rogues are swatted as easily as flies.
". Being a Rogue (currently) is more of a benefit then working as a team;"
You are a bloody liar, rogues are swatted as easily as flies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being a Rogue Marine in pubs is a lot more rewarding then working in a Squad at this point in NS2. Running around taking out cysts and harvesters solo, eliminating the Kharaa 1 by 1, or even spotting a Hive is the most effective method now. Why not do these same things in Squads, then be rewarded for it?
In TF2, you get a point every time you extinguish a player. As a pyro, I can do nothing but extinguish players and get twice as many points as the next highest scorer on my team, but that doesn't mean I was the most important player by any means. If you really want good team play, throw away the points system altogether. With points out of the way, only doing things that will truly help your team win are incentivized.
I'm certainly in favor of showing assist-kills on the kill log, but I'm undecided on your RFK suggestion. Perhaps if the player who gets the kill gets 1-2 res and the assister gets 1 res, that would probably be fine. As long as you're aware that changing the distribution of the points will affect some minor tactics, such as letting skulks get the kill.
Could you clarify a few points? Some might be answered already, but I can't get a proper feel of it all yet.
<ul>* Does a group of marines killing a skulk generate more RFK than a single marine killing a skulk?
* Does for example a marine building something benefit somehow from this? Shooting stuff isn't always the thing everyone should be doing.</li></ul>
I don't particularly like the idea of generating extra RFK for squad kills. A good group of marines already packs huge potential compared to lone wolves and winning big fights is already big for the outcome of the game. We've already got the planned squad spawning makes recovering from lost big fight difficult since the enemy replenishes on the field. Adding even more bonuses for the winner might be too much of slippery slope.
Also, squads still don't scale very well to smaller games, there are only that many ways you can play in squads with 5 field marines for example. Is NS2 supposed to be playable with less than 10 players on each team?
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I'm also not too excited about going too great lengths to reward teamwork. There's no algorhitm to detect a smart teamplayer. Sometimes it involves pure fragging, sometimes passive camping, sometimes soloing things and so on, sticking to a squad and welding each other is just a part of it. By rewarding one kind of behavior you encourage kind of sheepish pack behaviour rather than Doing the Right Thing, whatever it ends up being in the situation.
Of course supporting the basic teamwork routines isn't that harmful, but I don't think it's worth sacrificing interesting strategical possibilities or such.
Be aware that many features still haven't been added and no one knows what the costs of Exo/JP/possible HMG upgrade/etc etc will cost...
". Being a Rogue (currently) is more of a benefit then working as a team;"
You are a bloody liar, rogues are swatted as easily as flies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I whole heartily agree with this. Once the game is complete with features it will play out much like NS1 does in the pub scene and people will stick together or lose. No need for stat whoring or rewarding people for shooting aliens. The fact that you are alive after the alien you were in combat is dead is reward enough.
What about taking out RPK entirely so there is more of an incentive to guard those res nodes?
It is an interesting idea but it starts to get close to the stat whoring or "multi-kill" mentality. Most, if not all of us, come from NS1 and know how things played out. It didnt need this assist system and NS2 will have very similar game play hopefully. There is no deficiency, so why add something unneeded?
What about taking out RPK entirely so there is more of an incentive to guard those res nodes?
It is an interesting idea but it starts to get close to the stat whoring or "multi-kill" mentality. Most, if not all of us, come from NS1 and know how things played out. It didnt need this assist system and NS2 will have very similar game play hopefully. There is no deficiency, so why add something unneeded?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm, and how has NS1 pub scene been doing over the past hmm 3 years? Ohh that's right, it only runs combat maps! (aka stat "whoring" completely based around resources [I would consider that a success for resources per kill])
Remove resource per kill? Let's make the game go from 1 hour stalemates to 5 hour stalemates, awesome! Let's hurt the people that can't make those kills and rewards those that can! Look how effective that process was for Natural Selection's pub scene...
This system has nothing to do with stat "whoring" and everything to do with building a stable system that pushes users into working as a team.
Put the way you feel about me aside and be realistic for a second, every game that works around team work uses this system and it's proven to work and keep <u>pub servers full</u>. That's what the entire point of UWE building a game, to get the purchases and to produce a game that is actively worth playing.
Could you clarify a few points? Some might be answered already, but I can't get a proper feel of it all yet.
<ul>* Does a group of marines killing a skulk generate more RFK than a single marine killing a skulk?
* Does for example a marine building something benefit somehow from this? Shooting stuff isn't always the thing everyone should be doing.</li></ul>
I don't particularly like the idea of generating extra RFK for squad kills. A good group of marines already packs huge potential compared to lone wolves and winning big fights is already big for the outcome of the game. We've already got the planned squad spawning makes recovering from lost big fight difficult since the enemy replenishes on the field. Adding even more bonuses for the winner might be too much of slippery slope.
Also, squads still don't scale very well to smaller games, there are only that many ways you can play in squads with 5 field marines for example. Is NS2 supposed to be playable with less than 10 players on each team?
---
I'm also not too excited about going too great lengths to reward teamwork. There's no algorhitm to detect a smart teamplayer. Sometimes it involves pure fragging, sometimes passive camping, sometimes soloing things and so on, sticking to a squad and welding each other is just a part of it. By rewarding one kind of behavior you encourage kind of sheepish pack behaviour rather than Doing the Right Thing, whatever it ends up being in the situation.
Of course supporting the basic teamwork routines isn't that harmful, but I don't think it's worth sacrificing interesting strategical possibilities or such.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ol type='1'><li>A group of Marines do not get any more resources than a solo marine gets. All that simply happens is if you participate in a kill, you get credit for it instead of having wasted your bullets on no reward.</li><li>If 2 Marines powerbuild a structure, they should both be rewarded, not just 1 of them (which is how it is now).</li><li>I won't even get into how I personally feel on squad spawning, but unless that system is in the game, I will not discuss it.</li><li>5v5 can be done on summit; 2 left, 2 right, 1 comm. 2 Marines = squad [both are benefiting with my system]. This will work extremely well in anything 5v5 and up!</li></ol>
Holy crap, I actually agree with MEB!
<div align='center'><img src="http://sacramentocats.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/cat-celebration.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></div>
Remove resource per kill? Let's make the game go from 1 hour stalemates to 5 hour stalemates, awesome! Let's hurt the people that can't make those kills and rewards those that can! Look how effective that process was for Natural Selection's pub scene...
This system has nothing to do with stat "whoring" and everything to do with building a stable system that pushes users into working as a team.
Put the way you feel about me aside and be realistic for a second, every game that works around team work uses this system and it's proven to work and keep <u>pub servers full</u>. That's what the entire point of UWE building a game, to get the purchases and to produce a game that is actively worth playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Listen. Yes i don't like you and yes i dont like your idea, but when anyone suggests anything in the betterment of the sequel to one of my favorite games i give it due consideration.
I like the older school play style. I will equate this to say... Gears of War and Demon Souls. I love Demon Souls and i hate Gears of War. NS2 is my last hope for something that doesnt resemble every other game on the market.
To me Combat Mode killed NS. I hated Combat maps and loved NS maps. Combat maps didnt promote the gamers i wanted to play with. Some of the best servers were server full of people who loved NS maps and played them a lot (BAD and TG for examples). I have been stationed in Portugal in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and in moving i have found an awesome server still running and full of people. Wonga is in between TG and BAD in my fav servers of all time.
I ramble a bit... back to the point. As you said in your response CO was popular. I hated CO and thought it killed NS as we know it.
Removing RPK would not cause stalemates. It would actually kill them. With the importance of Res Nodes there would be no more "feed gates" or 15 minute MS turtles with 1 res node.
I enjoy RPK in NS1 because it adds an extra dynamic of who is chosen to build what and how much they kill to get there faster. Hive skulk kills 10 marines in the first 2 minutes = really fast hive. We lose this with the alien commander (which i wish would go away but i know it is here to stay). In NS2 it really isnt needed and would promote teamwork and listening to the comm even more than your idea.
We are on polar opposites on what we think the game should be and play like, but if i dont speak up and add my input, i will be agreeing with you through my silence.
In the end (or that tl:dr thing the cool kids do), the day Unknown Worlds starts implementing the ideas modern games today are adapting too i will gracefully bow out of ever supporting them as a company and give my loyalty somewhere better deserved. I understand they are an obscure company and they want to make money, but i think they can have that "hit game" BECAUSE they arent like the rest of the games out there. Look at Demon Souls.
Whatever happened to Part Old, Part New, and Part Upgraded? (feel free to add the exact words.)
I like the older school play style. I will equate this to say... Gears of War and Demon Souls. I love Demon Souls and i hate Gears of War. NS2 is my last hope for something that doesnt resemble every other game on the market.
To me Combat Mode killed NS. I hated Combat maps and loved NS maps. Combat maps didnt promote the gamers i wanted to play with. Some of the best servers were server full of people who loved NS maps and played them a lot (BAD and TG for examples). I have been stationed in Portugal in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and in moving i have found an awesome server still running and full of people. Wonga is in between TG and BAD in my fav servers of all time.
I ramble a bit... back to the point. As you said in your response CO was popular. I hated CO and thought it killed NS as we know it.
Removing RPK would not cause stalemates. It would actually kill them. With the importance of Res Nodes there would be no more "feed gates" or 15 minute MS turtles with 1 res node.
I enjoy RPK in NS1 because it adds an extra dynamic of who is chosen to build what and how much they kill to get there faster. Hive skulk kills 10 marines in the first 2 minutes = really fast hive. We lose this with the alien commander (which i wish would go away but i know it is here to stay). In NS2 it really isnt needed and would promote teamwork and listening to the comm even more than your idea.
We are on polar opposites on what we think the game should be and play like, but if i dont speak up and add my input, i will be agreeing with you through my silence.
In the end (or that tl:dr thing the cool kids do), the day Unknown Worlds starts implementing the ideas modern games today are adapting too i will gracefully bow out of ever supporting them as a company and give my loyalty somewhere better deserved. I understand they are an obscure company and they want to make money, but i think they can have that "hit game" BECAUSE they arent like the rest of the games out there. Look at Demon Souls.
Whatever happened to Part Old, Part New, and Part Upgraded? (feel free to add the exact words.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Referring to Demon Souls (a game I platinum-ed on PS3) and Gears of War (which I got 1000AP on 360) and trying to refer it to NS2 and as path for NS2? Hmmm...
Thanks your your feedback! I will see if Schimmel can find more ways to adjust this system to hopefully win you over!
If a skulk kill nets you 5 points, those 5 points should be divided among the players based on a percentqage, with maybe the killer netting 1 or so point extra.
That way the guy that actually contributed the most will net most of the reward.
<!--quoteo(post=1877321:date=Sep 28 2011, 09:32 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Sep 28 2011, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1877321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Arbitrary and unnecessary imo. You already get rewarded for working together: You have a good shot at winning. Not helping that skulk chomp down a PN might be a good idea for many reasons but no artificial reward system will be able to account for that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And i do agree with that killing shouldnt be the main priority, however i disagree with the above poster saying an assist system inst needed, it just shouldnt reward more poitns then a single player would get.
Im also of the opinion you should perhaps get different rewards based on who you kill, a skulk is alot easier to kill then a fade, and since no one atm cant kill a fade on his own anyway points will always be devided between the players, resulting in everyone getting rewarded for taking down a hard enemy like a fade as a team (same should appy for aliens, just dont exactly know how as tier1 and 2 dont differ to much, maybe give aliens based on weapons and killstreams (killing 2-3 people in a row within x seconds nets an extra 2-3 points?))
But besides that, i know alot of people dont want to hear this, but in Nuclear Dawn you also get rewarded for folowing commanders orders, im not sure as i havent played any NS2 after the last patch released but i dont think it rewards you for that, while i do think its a good way to encourage people to actually follow their commands.
However, it should work over a time span, following 1 command only rewards you once every x seconds, or some other way to avoid people working with the com to spam commands to gain ress like crazy.
So that might be a bit tricky, Nuclear Dawn just rewards points every tick for following commands but your only getting xp there, not actual ingame resources.
+1
Sorry about that!
<u><b>1) Practicality</b></u>
<b> a) Depth of teamplay</b>
If your overall aim is to improve and incentivise teamplay you have to define it and that quickly becomes a problem. People have already raised the issue of what constitutes teamplay and theres much more to it than simply damage done. For example this is going to hurt gorges who play aggressively early game in order to get a little rfk with healspray kills before melee 1 goes up.
Also if your only chomping on marines because of the chance of getting rfk loots then I think the problem is with the player and the system shouldn't be changed for people who play like that in the first place. Likewise for marines, you don't shoot aliens for rfk, you shoot them to kill them and an assist system starts dangerously linking the wrong motives and outcomes together.
<b> b) Balance OR Granularity</b>
Yes, we do need to see how HA/JP costs will affect pres but the system proposed basically increases the ammount of pres earnt by each team. This means more higher level lifeforms and weapons, less lmg and skulk. I'm not comfortable with this because i feel theres alot of good gameplay at t1 and you run the danger of mismatching team strength and map control (the RTS aspect).
If the rfk from an assist system doesn't change how much res overall is received then you face the issue of granularity. It doesn't make sense and seems kinda pointless to be dividing such a small ammount of res. You also get the issue of people getting angry at other people for assisting them.
<u><b>2) Need</b></u>
Tres is important absolutely and should be the main overhanging element. I'm not sure changing pres distribution and all the balancing issues is worth it. In terms of teamplay, I would actually argue that the current rfk system promotes teamplay more than an assist system because you need to communicate/pay attention to how your teams pres is being spent. Again, an assist system doesnt make people aim better, it doesnt incentivise people to shoot and bite other people more than they otherwise would and it doesn't promote map, team and situational awareness.
<u><b>3) Outcomes</b></u>
<b>a) Disincentive</b>
Sometimes good teamplay requires you not to do the most damage. For example leaping over a group of marines to distract them so a fade or the rest of your team can get a drop on them. Or a weak example off the top of my head, baiting the other team and buying time with crazy jumping, distraction and whatnot. Actually a better example would be use of the flamethrower - pitiful damage but great utility. I would rather see new players learn how to play smart instead of how to do lots of damage.
<b>b) Unintuitive</b>
Its really all about the experience and its both unintuitive and perhaps demoralizing for new players when they feel they did alot more damage or helped the team but the system didn't recognize their efforts. This is the underlying problem behind the powernode chomping example you gave - its not about whats recognized but what isn't recognized. Res for killing blow is alot easier to understand.
Again, +1 for schimmel's awesome assist system for points (the powernode example) but not for rfk i think..
*Edit* Rewarding for following commander orders is really exploitable or hard to balance not to mention sometimes what the comm wants may not be the best thing the team sees on the ground. It also punishes very co-ordinated teams that use mumble/vent instead of waypoints and would just end up being a minigame where the comm makes sure he's placed x ammount of waypoints per minute next to marines in order to maximise their pres income.
Also, if UWE does add this assist system for rfk, it should definately be additive as Visionz put it originally, not 'share of the pie' which introduces a host of incentive problems.
Thanks bud!
Sorry about that!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well i dint mean it in a bad way, i saw the line in the op about the values being examples, i was just giving my thoughts on the subject :)
I really like the idea of assisting and have been wondering myself why it wasnt there.
but like i said, maybe you could experiment with a % based amount of points, based on % of damage dealt.
This would also nip people in the butt who would just hold fire to then try and steal the kill for the highest point value (and believe me, i know a few of those in a different community and playing with those people is like stabbing my own eyes with glass everytime i have to hear them bragging about how much higher their scores are at the end)
Also we have to think about Aliens that get healed but not too max health so it would be possible that more than 1 Marine did more than 70% of DMG.
That would be horrible to balance and maybe also to code.
An easier way would be Assist and kill only.
The killer gets points and tres and the assister only 1 point/pres. Else you can get more than 10res for a kill.