Frenzy

FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Members, Reinforced - Shadow
in NS2 General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">The Balance killer?</div>Like we all now Aliens are killable know, especially Fades and Gorges, and even the best Skulk dies after 10 shots. The reason, beside the nerfs, is that Frenzy is bugged and does not work. But that shows know how powerfull Frenzy is. A Skulk could easy get back to almost full health with it and a Fade killing 2 rines often gets around 200hp back.
Full health as skulk for 10Tres research and 2 Pres that is really cheap and even the Fade loves to upgrade it almost for free. And I also always upgrade it.

My opinion is that Frenzy was the bigger balance killer in the other builds than most of the nerfed things. It should be a Tier 3 tech or maybe changed. Like a cooldown or whatever.

I hope you can follow my thinkings. Pls don't rage me down "duck".
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Comments

  • KalabalanaKalabalana Join Date: 2003-11-14 Member: 22859Members
    Frenzy's worth is more in the early game. This is why I believe it should not be a tier 3.

    Also, it does not work in this build for some reason.
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  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited August 2011
    It's a really powerful upgrade that encourages baserushes very early, if aliens win the first fight.
    And it doesnt get weaker in late game, when the fades can get it, for skulks vs shotguns it's another story.
    Frenzy is a very cheap upgrade, compared to its effectiveness.
    But still I would like to see this upgrade as a strategy in the early game, but it should be a bit more expensive.
    I think the upgrade cost should be tweaked(15/20?).
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  • Racer1Racer1 Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9615Members
    Perhaps the amount of health you get back should be based on the value of items the marine has. So, for example, killing a marine with an LMG would give up to 40% back, a shotgun or other weapon would give 70% back. Having a jetpack/HA would give an additional 30% back.
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  • jergodzjergodz Join Date: 2011-05-20 Member: 99745Members
    Oh it does not work in this build? and there I was wondering why it felt fair to fight a fade now.. Hope they keep it permanent, frenzy is a ######
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  • wilson502wilson502 Join Date: 2004-01-08 Member: 25169Members, Constellation
    ya frenzy is broken in 185...... needs to be fixed.
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  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1873113:date=Sep 4 2011, 10:05 PM:name=wilson502)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wilson502 @ Sep 4 2011, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873113"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ya frenzy is broken in 185...... needs to be fixed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah, but it has to be changed and the Fade shouldn't get it anymore!
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  • jergodzjergodz Join Date: 2011-05-20 Member: 99745Members
    Sure, why bother with crags and gorges if you got frenzy right?
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  • Gorge_LucasGorge_Lucas Join Date: 2011-07-10 Member: 109352Members
    +1 Get rid of it.
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  • RichardRahlRichardRahl Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104594Members
    frenzy does not help all that much, you have to get a KILL to gain back and you don't gain all that much back, it helps you stay alive a couple extra seconds more against a group of marines, it's not a godmode.
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  • UnderwhelmedUnderwhelmed DemoDetective #?&#33; Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58026Members, Constellation
    An upgrade heavily cribbed from a xmenu combat plugin upgrade is terrible? Color me surprised.
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  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    They could change it so that instead of healing you instantly you gain the health over a short period of time. That way, if you were taking fire you'd still die but if you got away you could get back into the action sooner.

    I definitely agree it was a really powerful upgrade especially for the res cost. Moving it to a 2nd hive would make a lot of sense.
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  • McGlaspieMcGlaspie www.team156.com Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
    edited September 2011
    Going off of Charlie's recent design log notes about the Swarm and Frenzy upgrades; it seems like they should be a squad bonus or something of that nature. So, 3 skulks working together get those upgrades (if researched) when staying within X distance of each other. Wolf pack kind of effect.
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  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1873148:date=Sep 5 2011, 05:11 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Sep 5 2011, 05:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873148"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I definitely agree it was a really powerful upgrade especially for the res cost. Moving it to a 2nd hive would make a lot of sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The 2nd hive has traditionally been too big of a deal in NS. There's just so much stuff crammed into it that getting it up as soon as possible is a do or die thing in many cases, even more so with NS2 and fades. Adding even more stuff there isn't most likely going to do any good.
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  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1873129:date=Sep 5 2011, 12:38 AM:name=Gorge_Lucas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorge_Lucas @ Sep 5 2011, 12:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 Get rid of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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  • SilverwingSilverwing bulletsponge Join Date: 2003-11-23 Member: 23395Members, Constellation
    Make it scale with number of hives. Fixd.
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  • ZurikiZuriki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75105Members
    edited September 2011
    I think limiting it to just skulks makes a lot of sense as I interpret it as "feeding frenzy" and since the skulk is the only one that uses biting to kill it's prey, it makes sense that it would have this upgrade. Just my opinion.
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  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    edited September 2011
    I don't like frenzy and similar upgrades, mainly because their are "non-physical" upgrades, meaning that instead of tweaking intrinsic parameters of the player (speed, armor, health or energy regeneration, damage, foot step noise, transparency, attack speed, ...) they introduce additional game rules like "if kill someone then get more hp". This kind of rule are great for paper games, but I don't like them in more realistic and incarnated video games like ns2, they feel a bit cheesy and artificial. Just my opinion about game ontology.
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  • ZurikiZuriki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75105Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1873229:date=Sep 5 2011, 10:40 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Sep 5 2011, 10:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like frenzy and similar upgrades, mainly because their are "non-physical" upgrades, meaning that instead of tweaking intrinsic parameters of the player (speed, armor, health or energy regeneration, damage, foot step noise, transparency, attack speed, ...) they introduce additional game rules like "if kill someone then get more hp". This kind of rule are great for paper games, but I don't like them in more realistic and incarnated video games like ns2, they feel a bit cheesy and artificial. Just my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You listed health regeneration as one of the acceptable ones, this is essentially health regeneration. Because if you win the battle, you regenerate health. If you lose the battle it doesn't matter, generally what happens with health regeneration anyway.
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  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    edited September 2011
    No, tweaking heath regeneration rate is tweaking an intrinsic property of the player, linking health regeneration to some event in the world by a rule makes it extrinsic :

    <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_and_extrinsic_properties_(philosophy)" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_and...es_(philosophy)</a>

    Also the first one is only changing a number (supposing that regeneration is implemented), the second one needs additional programming (if event then).

    It seems to me that the distinction is relevant, but preferring one type of upgrade, the other or both is arbitrary, it's just a matter of taste.
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  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I'd rather it enable health regen while not on DI instead. The health for kills is pretty powerful.
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  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2011
    Basic health regen while not on di is useless - DI regen is so low, that by the time you are back to 100% you could have gone healing at a hive/gorge/whatever numerous times.
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  • IronsoulIronsoul Join Date: 2011-03-12 Member: 86048Members
    it's not useless when there is no infestation around.

    I sort of like constant regen for the upgrade. But then again, it would no longer be frenzy.
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  • measlesmeasles Join Date: 2007-02-26 Member: 60122Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1872129:date=Aug 31 2011, 05:04 AM:name=Racer1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racer1 @ Aug 31 2011, 05:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps the amount of health you get back should be based on the value of items the marine has. So, for example, killing a marine with an LMG would give up to 40% back, a shotgun or other weapon would give 70% back. Having a jetpack/HA would give an additional 30% back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This idea is cool.
    Alternatively, the amount of health regained could be based on the amount damage done. Thus, having both upgrades would result in Kharaa unit with swarm and frenzy would have a better/higher health regain.
    Also, it might work into the tactics of any l33t marine sqaud, i.e; send the sick one on ahead.
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  • measlesmeasles Join Date: 2007-02-26 Member: 60122Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1873239:date=Sep 6 2011, 08:59 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Sep 6 2011, 08:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd rather it enable health regen while not on DI instead. The health for kills is pretty powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    SHH!
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  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    I think the frenzy should be in the body of the player and not in the computer, this frenzy upgrade doesn't make any sense to me. Is there some positive arguments for why it is nice and good ?
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  • GeneralBowserGeneralBowser Join Date: 2010-05-19 Member: 71801Members
    I like fenzy, just kill the skulk before it kills you and you don't have a problem with it.
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  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1873437:date=Sep 7 2011, 12:03 PM:name=GeneralBowser)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GeneralBowser @ Sep 7 2011, 12:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1873437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like fenzy, just kill the skulk before it kills you and you don't have a problem with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    And what about Fade/Onos? Kill em before they kill you? ;-)
    Just a question: Does Frenzy stack up with Swarm? Never took a look at it and in this build we can't test it.
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