Thoughts On Balance
Snake13
Join Date: 2002-04-30 Member: 554Members
Join Date: 2002-04-30 Member: 554Members
<div class="IPBDescription">2nd hive is the game winner</div> First off I am not trying to say that the Aliens are more powerful, I think the marines can win a game with a decent commander if they keep the aliens from getting two hives. And the aliens will win if they get two hives (I'll present my support for this in a moment). Now while currently (assuming the commander uses the tactic of preventing the aliens from getting a second hive) both teams have an equal chance of winning I don't think the turning point is what the team was intending (as they have stated the third hive is supposed to be the game winner)
Why do I say this? Well up untill yesterday I have always claimed that the marines can in fact fight on equal footing with two hive aliens (since i ussualy play alien I guess i was kind of biased) but after seeing game after game turn after the second hive I started to change my mind, finally yesterday I played a game as alien against an <i>excellent</i> commander with an alien team that didn't work together, and had lame gorges for the first five minutes (one started building offensive chambers on nodes) yet we still won, why? well because the commanders one mistake was letting us get two hives.
This commander used all the right tactics, gave his marine squads a Grenade launcher to comabt umbra, took as many nodes as he could, made phase gates for fast movement, even escaped and rebuilt the base three times when we destroyed it. But despite this the best he could do was survive against a alien team with no teamwork. Why is this? well two reason I think, Firstly I think acid rocket is a bit overpowered in its current form and use, and secondly marine turrets are complete junk once the aliens get umbra. In all my games as alien I see the same thing (I am ussualy a lerk) I drop an umbra and three fades just bombard the base with acid rocket, shooting at the turrets and kill all the marines with the splash damage.
Now I think both of these problems can be fixed by removing the splash damage on acid rocket, and perhaps raising GL damage a tad. The reason for this is it would allow umbra to continue to be a turret nullifier bombarding the turrets would leave you vunerable to marines with a GL because you would know longer kill everyone in the base with the splash damage. Also it would make the expensive GL deadlier as currently as a lerk It takes nearly three grenade explosions directly on me to kill me, two blasts near the epicenter should do it. Although even better I think would be to up the damage cosiderably and lower the rate of fire, making it a heacy weapon on par with its costs instead of a cheap one that runs out of ammo in one engagement.
finally in order to keep the marines from turret farming with their now more pwoerfull defenses there should be a limit on how many turrets a turret factory can power, personally 6 seems like a good number.
Why do I say this? Well up untill yesterday I have always claimed that the marines can in fact fight on equal footing with two hive aliens (since i ussualy play alien I guess i was kind of biased) but after seeing game after game turn after the second hive I started to change my mind, finally yesterday I played a game as alien against an <i>excellent</i> commander with an alien team that didn't work together, and had lame gorges for the first five minutes (one started building offensive chambers on nodes) yet we still won, why? well because the commanders one mistake was letting us get two hives.
This commander used all the right tactics, gave his marine squads a Grenade launcher to comabt umbra, took as many nodes as he could, made phase gates for fast movement, even escaped and rebuilt the base three times when we destroyed it. But despite this the best he could do was survive against a alien team with no teamwork. Why is this? well two reason I think, Firstly I think acid rocket is a bit overpowered in its current form and use, and secondly marine turrets are complete junk once the aliens get umbra. In all my games as alien I see the same thing (I am ussualy a lerk) I drop an umbra and three fades just bombard the base with acid rocket, shooting at the turrets and kill all the marines with the splash damage.
Now I think both of these problems can be fixed by removing the splash damage on acid rocket, and perhaps raising GL damage a tad. The reason for this is it would allow umbra to continue to be a turret nullifier bombarding the turrets would leave you vunerable to marines with a GL because you would know longer kill everyone in the base with the splash damage. Also it would make the expensive GL deadlier as currently as a lerk It takes nearly three grenade explosions directly on me to kill me, two blasts near the epicenter should do it. Although even better I think would be to up the damage cosiderably and lower the rate of fire, making it a heacy weapon on par with its costs instead of a cheap one that runs out of ammo in one engagement.
finally in order to keep the marines from turret farming with their now more pwoerfull defenses there should be a limit on how many turrets a turret factory can power, personally 6 seems like a good number.
Comments
Course it prolly was also do to our stupid Gorges who just couldnt seem to build any movement chambers at all (it took well into 10+ minutes to convince them to build defensive chambers!!). Guess they were to busy building walls of OC's so they could be l33t offensive Gorges.
On the same note, when is the ability to kick people from Gorges going to be put in?
All of the games I play, regardless of commander, are usually over if 2 hives are secured by aleins. The Fades have insane HP and damage. It is damn hard to collect resources while fades keep killing turrets with their acid rockets.
Additionally I almost never see Onos anymore. By the time 2 hives are online marines are completly owned by Fades with Carapace and Adrenaline. It is no longer necasssary to use Onos since the marines have a tough time getting HA and heavy weapons.
Unless the marines rush the game is usually over. Maybe turret factories should be cheaper or Seige cannons should have more HP. It is too easy to anhilate a marine outpost as a Fade or Lerk.
I always thought the game should be fought over the 3rd hive with HA HMG marines vs Fades and Lerks. Being able to own marines with only 2 hives seems a bit too simple. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just wanted to point out that that was one of the stupiest reply I've ever seen.
Anyhow to the point now. I agree with you guys, I remember when NS started and everyone was noob we would see not to often, but once in a while even teams. I remember how the game always stuck in the position where there would be HA/hmg against fades. Then one of them manage to overcome the other and secure the last hive, well if it was the aliens.. marines lost, if it was marines, the aliens was in trouble but still had a chance.
What I would like to see as many of you pointed out is a struggle for the last hive AND the resource nozzles. Right now one can simply just ignore the res noz because once one team gets two hive, you're dead anyway, and what good do resources have when you're dead? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I now have a player limit of 15 people.
The 15th is supposed to be a marine. I am working on a plugin for am to force the 15th to be a marine always. On a side note, I have never made a plugin before and need to learn. If there is someone out there that could script that easily I would love to hear from you.
I feel 8 marines vs 7 aliens may make the game more fun. Only time will tell though if it is too much or not enough. I am worried about the early marine rush to the single alien hive. I don't want to make it too easy.
We shall see.
dex
Dexion's ns server 67.36.236.238:27025
But hey thats just me, the NS team will probably think of a better idea to fix it.
You can take out a Fade with a shotgun, HMG, or even upgraded LMGs - you don't necessarily need HA, although I'm not saying it doesn't help.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but if they have a 2nd hive and you dont have HA yet...you deserve to lose!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It really depends on your build order, and what you decided to tech to first. You don't deserve to lose because you're using a build order that everyone on the pub doesn't like.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens Rarely have enough teamwork to employ the Fade/Lerk/Gorge combo that is most effective to actually end a game without Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I beg to differ. In 90% of the games I play, I see more Fades/Umbra than I see Onoses(esessess?)
Edit: one point I WILL concede is that Acid Rocket could probably use a bit smaller splash radius, but not because it's too nasty vs. marines. More because it's too strong compared to Bile Bomb. It's a bad sign when you use your 2nd level attack instead of your (supposedly) insano 3rd hive power because it's more effective in 90% of situations.
A fade in umbra is something a grunt marine can not kill even a HMG&HA can not kill it, + the gren launcher is not terribly effective against fades...
Umbra is a very powerful tool...
I'd like to see a turret, that could deal with Umbra, (ie a rocket/grenade launcher) or make the grenade launchers more powerful, (or perhaps the umbra ignite from grenade blasts)
Bart
This happened to me yesterday...I think it was 9v8 or something with Marines the greater team on Eclipse. The Fades came and the ENTIRE (minus me) Marine team just sat around the Armoury as they spawned (including guys in HA), begging for guns and getting killed. We had like 3 Fades at each door and what do I do? Leap off the Inf Portal and run straight for the door, LMG roaring.
I probably killed a Fade every 3 times I spawned. If my whole team had done that, that would have been an average of 2 (rounding down...I'm pretty good) Fades dead every time we cycled a spawn. And that's 88 resources to the 0 those 3 Marines cost.
Marines just don't seem to GET that (newsflash) YOU COST 0 RP AND ARE MEANT TO DIE UNLESS YOU HAVE A WEAPON/HA. I think it's all the CS-thinking about how if you die that's it you're out or that someone's spread the evil rumour that it costs 50rp to respawn a Marine or some crazy thing.
As far as aliens getting a second hive causing a marine loss? Well, this depends on the marines, most importantly, on the commander. Lately, most commanders I see try and get 2 hives as fast as possible, in an attempt to not have to deal with fades. While there is nothing wrong with this, the reason they usually fail is because they don't think they have any chance of winning once the aliens have 2 hives, and this causes them to ignore upgrading their marines. In most games, when the first fade is spotted, the marines are still at their base level, most commanders don't even build an arms lab until the aliens have fades.
I think the biggest problem is commanders not being flexible enough. They have a set routine, and don't prepare for unexpected outcomes. If I have one hive, and see that the aliens have started their second and are defending it with all their might, then I'll back off, try and secure a few extra resource nodes to help move the upgrades along, and start getting my marines ready to battle with fades.
Someone mentioned somthing about players learning how to use aliens, yes, I think more and more players are coming to grips with using aliens effectivly, and players knowledge of how to use marines is especially lacking, which is silly because they are so easy. Listen to your commander. That is it. All there is to it. I would say 'only travel in groups' but a good commander is not going to have you run off by yourself, unless he specifically needs someone like that.
In the mean time, all you good players out there, show your fellow marines that fades are no big thing! Take down a fade or two with your LMG, then tell them what you just did and that it IS possible. If they are willing to follow you, tell them to stick with you and go on a fade hunting mission, teach them how to deal with fades (rush them, don't let them run to heal! Dodge their acid rockets, jump over them or move to the side!) The unbalance, in my opinion, comes from new players fear of fades, and their unwillingness to stand up against them.
1) Bad Commander/Bad Gorge
2) Team Imbalance
3) Poor Tactics/Teamwork
4) Poor Use/Understanding of Weapons (ie. LMGs <i>can</i> take out Fades)
Any single one of the problems above can result in a totally imbalanced match. NS is still in it's infancy and people have yet to get fully comfortable with the game yet.
Now, this is not to say there aren't some fundamental imbalances that have to be looked at especially at the Clan-Match (Tournament Mode) level of NS.
Here is a thread that discusses some of the issues with Clanplay.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=22&t=13394' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...ST&f=22&t=13394</a>
1) Bad Commander/Bad Gorge
2) Team Imbalance
3) Poor Tactics/Teamwork
4) Poor Use/Understanding of Weapons (ie. LMGs <i>can</i> take out Fades)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to burst your bubble, but I play almost exclusively on private servers and still encounter most of the problems described in this thread on a regular basis.
Yes, we know very well how to play. Yes, we use very good tactics. Yes, the teams are balanced 90% of the time. Yes, the commander/gorges are generally competent. Yes, we even manage to kill fades with LMG now and then. But we STILL run into these problems. The game is WAY too dependant upon whoever grabs the first two hives. And often it feels as though the outcome of the game is decided within the first 5-10 minutes of gameplay, with everything simply falling into place after that.
These problems are not isolated to public servers; they are fundamental problems with the game itself.
Also, I don't see how blaming the problems on the incompetence of public server players helps the situation any. If anything, the devs should be even MORE conerned if issues like these crop up on public servers more often than they do in a controlled setting.
1) Bad Commander/Bad Gorge
2) Team Imbalance
3) Poor Tactics/Teamwork
4) Poor Use/Understanding of Weapons (ie. LMGs <i>can</i> take out Fades)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to burst your bubble, but I play almost exclusively on private servers and still encounter most of the problems described in this thread on a regular basis.
Yes, we know very well how to play. Yes, we use very good tactics. Yes, the teams are balanced 90% of the time. Yes, the commander/gorges are generally competent. Yes, we even manage to kill fades with LMG now and then. But we STILL run into these problems. The game is WAY too dependant upon whoever grabs the first two hives. And often it feels as though the outcome of the game is decided within the first 5-10 minutes of gameplay, with everything simply falling into place after that.
These problems are not isolated to public servers; they are fundamental problems with the game itself.
Also, I don't see how blaming the problems on the incompetence of public server players helps the situation any. If anything, the devs should be even MORE conerned if issues like these crop up on public servers more often than they do in a controlled setting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And often it feels as though the outcome of the game is decided within the first 5-10 minutes of gameplay, with everything simply falling into place after that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is absolutely true. When it first came out, marines set up camp in their base and sloooowly expanded out from there, giving skulks a chance to rush them hard and gorges the painfully long time it takes to get rolling. Then marines found out that spawns are pretty hardy and they can respawn faster than aliens, so drop a couple of spawns and an armory and you've got enough resources to drop a spawn and resourcer in a hive, then set up a little more in there, then bum rush and lock down the next hive. There's equally cheesy counter-tactics like the gorge rush (a mass of gorges heal-spraying plus a couple of skulks doing the extra damage) but the biggest imbalance is the early game. Unless you've got exceptionally good (or lucky) aliens, a competent commander and competent marines will win 90% of the time and there's roundabout nothing the aliens can do about it. Aliens need some way to pool their resources to their chosen gorge to balance the commander's resources out.
This is absolutely true. When it first came out, marines set up camp in their base and sloooowly expanded out from there, giving skulks a chance to rush them hard and gorges the painfully long time it takes to get rolling. Then marines found out that spawns are pretty hardy and they can respawn faster than aliens, so drop a couple of spawns and an armory and you've got enough resources to drop a spawn and resourcer in a hive, then set up a little more in there, then bum rush and lock down the next hive. There's equally cheesy counter-tactics like the gorge rush (a mass of gorges heal-spraying plus a couple of skulks doing the extra damage) but the biggest imbalance is the early game. Unless you've got exceptionally good (or lucky) aliens, a competent commander and competent marines will win 90% of the time and there's roundabout nothing the aliens can do about it. Aliens need some way to pool their resources to their chosen gorge to balance the commander's resources out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're missing the point...on the servers that I play on, sometimes marines with, and sometimes the aliens win. The problem is that the outcome is decided in 5-10 minutes, and then the game simply drags itself out from there. The problem is that this game essentially "ends" before it's truly begun...the game is often decided even before mid-game!
Right when the Kharaa get the second hive, there's usually only 1 or 2 players who can afford to evolve into Fades anyhow. Fades are easily killed by marines if they know what they're doing, its once they get the 3rd hive and there's 5 or 6 Fades all using bile bomb that they do the serious damage. 2 Hive Fades on their own (with no more than 2, possible 3 of them) just require a small group of marines to rush out of the base while they're regaining energy and to just let the LMG rip on them.
I tend to play with a mate, and when Fades are attacking our base we both charge at once, if we get everything out that's 100 LMG rounds, 20 pistol rounds, and then us knifing. Tend to take down a Fade everytime, and that's 44 res to the Kharaa lost, and if we die no problem, we were't carrying anything valuable and we'll respawn in no time! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Armor uppgrades (surviving 2 acid rockets is far more important than any weapons uppgrades)
Siege uppgrade (yes deuce set up atleast 1 siege cannon in marine starters spawn)
1) Bad Commander/Bad Gorge
2) Team Imbalance
3) Poor Tactics/Teamwork
4) Poor Use/Understanding of Weapons (ie. LMGs <i>can</i> take out Fades)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to burst your bubble, but I play almost exclusively on private servers and still encounter most of the problems described in this thread on a regular basis.
Yes, we know very well how to play. Yes, we use very good tactics. Yes, the teams are balanced 90% of the time. Yes, the commander/gorges are generally competent. Yes, we even manage to kill fades with LMG now and then. But we STILL run into these problems. The game is WAY too dependant upon whoever grabs the first two hives. And often it feels as though the outcome of the game is decided within the first 5-10 minutes of gameplay, with everything simply falling into place after that.
These problems are not isolated to public servers; they are fundamental problems with the game itself.
Also, I don't see how blaming the problems on the incompetence of public server players helps the situation any. If anything, the devs should be even MORE conerned if issues like these crop up on public servers more often than they do in a controlled setting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I apologize for being vague, what I was trying to say was that there are many factors currently plaguing Public Server play such as the items I listed off. If you noticed I didn't use "n00bs" or "newbs," all I'm saying is that public servers are the beginner's learning grounds. It is these learning factors that sometimes cause major upsets (which may frustrate more experienced players).
I just thought it might be worthwhile to make a note to anyone thinking about posting a story about some percieved imbalance so they might consider these learning factors before they say it's a balance factor.
I'm not going to question your skills, this weekend I played over 45 scrims (10v10 LANfest). Part of my motivation was to prove that NS was indeed balanced... what we found is pretty much what you were talking about. In serious competitive play where everyone communicates NS is pretty much decided by your actions in the first 5-10 minutes.
So I don't disagree with you, think that NS is perfectly balanced, or blame anybody's incompetence on any server. I just think for this discussion it would be useful to first weed out any imbalances caused by the "learning factor" (this can't be done by discussion, this is an experience thing) and then we can get a better look at what gameplay mechanic is busticated.
That's why I said these balance threads <i>can</i> be misleading, there are some balance issues but not every post here (that contains a story or experience of a percieved imbalance) is actually the imbalance, they are more "learning issues".
<b>Eats</b> did up a report on some of the imbalances he observed in clanplay. Although I don't agree with all his observations all his major ones were pretty much right on. (He was who I was trying to disprove with the 72 hour LANfest I hosted, I thought he was wrong but I was)
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/in...ST&f=22&t=13394' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/in...ST&f=22&t=13394</a>
Siege uppgrade (yes deuce set up atleast 1 siege cannon in marine starters spawn)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok lets say theres 3-4 fades w/ adren. Thats 15-20 acid rockets coming at you. At that rate, I don't anything is going to survive that many hits. Plus the fact that you know your team, when fighting fades, is going to die a million times. I usually go wep1, then armor1, then wep2, because when you get to the bottom line you can just expect fades. And you need wep1 first to give them a better chance vs Fades (and carapace). Point being: Give your cannon fodder better wep dmg and tell them to charge fades b4 they can get back to their WOL (Wall of Lame, ie def line).
Also, there ARE many ways to accomplish what I said above. So I'm saying that I'm not 100%, but this is just what *I* do, when I can't secure 2 hives within 7-10 minutes of game.
1) this is not a fade whine thread, I told you I play as aliens all the time. I'm saying that I win way to easy.
2) all of you saying well its possible to kill a fade, sure it happens with skilled players, but i've taken out HA/HMGs with a one hive lerk quite a few times too, but with a decent lerk providing umbra support a handful of fades become nearly invincible.
3) I'll say it again, the teams are balanced, I just think the point at which victory is decided should be the fight over the third hive.
First of all, marines. Yes, most of the time, marines lose if the aliens get 2 hives. However, there are many, many tricks and tactics that can be used to overcome this second hive, although nothing works every time and you usually only have one chance to off that second hive before things cannot be salvaged. The key to defeating fades is the lmg rush. No, I am not kidding. HMGs and shotguns near base, the fades will come in, hit em, make em run, then anyone that is un-upgraded rush them with lmgs and take them out. Yes you probably will die, but 9 times out of 10 the fade will fall with you if you have aim and know to switch to pistol instead of reloading. A 44 resource point fade is much harder to replace than a newly spawned marine. The problem I see people constantly having against fades is that they never kill em. Fades with regen will just fall back for a bit and heal, then renew assault, costing no resources, while marines need to issue welders, health, and new turrets. With that situation, of course the marines will fall. Marines are big on defense, but you're not gonna win if you never kill anything. Oh, and the tricks I'm talking about for taking the second hive are all related to sieging from somewhere if you haven't guessed that.
Aliens are different. I definately admit that aliens have an advantage for games up to 10 on 10 people. (After that size, marines get a noticable advantage early on due to spawn rates). The thing is, everyone overlooks how incredibly powerful an organized skulk attack can be, especially with some thought being put into the tactics. Have the entire team cept for one skulk attack one secure hive, then the last skulk (or lerk, skulk is usually faster) hit the other hive. The marines respond much more intensely to the one under heavy attack, and the other one they will often not even notice is under attack. Skulks seem to be best in one of two modes: containment and base attack. And if a skulk can get Celerity and Carapace, its all over. Much more powerful than a fade against non-HA'd marines if used right.
Personally, I think the game is pretty balanced if and only if the marine comm can take 2 hives at the beginning. Then, its a great battle against the skulk menace. Not sure if this is what was intended, but it sure is fun as aliens, and thats what NS is all about. That and biting people's heads off. And jetpacks.
mmmm.....jetpacks....
Peace,
Dep
Only difference between the two during a two-hive(marine 2 hives or alien 2 hives) situation is that the marines need to spend resources to equip themselves, whereas the aliens have to spend time waiting for teammates to spawn and organize.
Aliens with two hives, then the marine better have resources for equipments.
Marine with two hives, then the aliens better not go dying off on their own and organize.
I also think that the fade's acid rocket has a too big of a radius. Since in most maps, most rooms are quite small. I mean most rooms are no bigger than about 2 - 4 rocket radius wide. Not to mention some marine start bases are fairly small, ie. NS_nancy. One rocket can hit just about half of everything in the room.
edit: oops fixed an important typo
Even though both teams made some mistakes, it was one of the best games I've ever played. It was always about the 2nd hive.
Aliens have an advantage, in that even if there is a newbie gorge on the team wasting resources an experienced player can gauge rp build up and go gorge build rp and go back to skulk, even though its still a major rp waste. But a gorge or 2 on teams at 7 vs 7 is same liability as a comm and comm mid game drop, and we are usaully all focusing on team rp build up and 2nd hive security.