Gorge
RisingSun
RisingCalifornia Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
RisingCalifornia Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Best of both worlds.</div>This idea for the gorge comes from another thread and is as follows:
<b><u>Gorge Structures:</u></b>
Mini-Shade
Mini-Crag
Mini-Shift
Mini-Cyst
<u><b>Commander only structures:</b></u>
RT
Whip
Hive
Cyst
Each would have the same usefulness of the commanders but will be unable to have a micro ability or research tech. Such as the Crag's umbra, Shades cloak, or melee 1/2/3. The trick to making the comm work with the gorge is allowing the comm to upgrade each structure to normal. This would allow the gorge to place chambers on the front lines, be aggressive like old NS1, or hang back helping out the comm.
The commander would have to drop the structure first such as the first chamber dropped that ties in to each hive.
Mini-structures would only have their passive ability when the gorge drops it. Not OP at all in my opinion and it gives the gorge it's role back =) Suggested PRes cost would be 10 or less.
<i>*edited for clarity. Thank you Feha. Added new suggestions, Thanks Schimmel*</i>
<i>Side note on chambers: It would be cool to see three type of abilities. One is passive, one (micro) used by the comm, and the third a click to use on the actual structure. For example:
Crag:
Passive - Heal
Micro - Babblers
Usable - Umbra</i>
<b><u>Gorge Structures:</u></b>
Mini-Shade
Mini-Crag
Mini-Shift
Mini-Cyst
<u><b>Commander only structures:</b></u>
RT
Whip
Hive
Cyst
Each would have the same usefulness of the commanders but will be unable to have a micro ability or research tech. Such as the Crag's umbra, Shades cloak, or melee 1/2/3. The trick to making the comm work with the gorge is allowing the comm to upgrade each structure to normal. This would allow the gorge to place chambers on the front lines, be aggressive like old NS1, or hang back helping out the comm.
The commander would have to drop the structure first such as the first chamber dropped that ties in to each hive.
Mini-structures would only have their passive ability when the gorge drops it. Not OP at all in my opinion and it gives the gorge it's role back =) Suggested PRes cost would be 10 or less.
<i>*edited for clarity. Thank you Feha. Added new suggestions, Thanks Schimmel*</i>
<i>Side note on chambers: It would be cool to see three type of abilities. One is passive, one (micro) used by the comm, and the third a click to use on the actual structure. For example:
Crag:
Passive - Heal
Micro - Babblers
Usable - Umbra</i>
Comments
If a commander can upgrade those mini structures to the normal kind, then the mini rt doesnt block the node, but actually makes it easyer to get it, and maybe cheaper for the comm (depends on upgrade costs).
I think that mini-structures should not be possible to upgrade stuff like armor and cloak from, and they should be locked to only the kinds that the commander can place (so no crags if you only have a shade hive).
The mini-whip (which you didnt even mention) is also a bit redundant as gorge has hydras. But hoe about letting the commander invest resources in hydras to turn them into whips instead?
If a commander can upgrade those mini structures to the normal kind, then the mini rt doesnt block the node, but actually makes it easyer to get it, and maybe cheaper for the comm (depends on upgrade costs).
I think that mini-structures should not be possible to upgrade stuff like armor and cloak from, and they should be locked to only the kinds that the commander can place (so no crags if you only have a shade hive).
The mini-whip (which you didnt even mention) is also a bit redundant as gorge has hydras. But hoe about letting the commander invest resources in hydras to turn them into whips instead?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mirror what i was thinking already and didnt add in the post. Thank you for helping me clarify.
Mini structures would have only the passive benefit until upgraded by the comm. Also the Gorge would be under the same structure limitation per hive as the comm.
And yes mini whip was left out due to hydras. =) Maybe hydras could have an upgrade into a whip option.
Upgrading into a full structure should probably cost as much as doing it manually; the downside is that it costs a gorge some personal resources, but the upside is that you don't have to spend a drifter's worth of energy, or for that matter get it in position safely.
EDIT: Although, what of the gorge's ability to place structures on walls and ceilings?
Would be cool though if the gorge could place mini whips. So they can be planted on walls and other surfaces. (area denial) And fall if their infestation goes away.
Possible fixes :
°Tall scale => Would be the easiest way to differentiate and add this to the game, as it don't require an ex nihilo skin (just make the skin smaller). But as you need a significant difference between two scales to make them easy to differentiate, you would have BIG mature chambers or REALY small micro. That would also be non intuitive as, if your micro-crag has the same skin but in smaller than your basic crag, why can't he umbra/heal you? (same thing for upgrades).
°New skins => Require work and doesn't feel intuitive to have 3 different skins for the "same" structure unless they have derteminated similitaries (ie: the glowing light for the crag), and could be hard for new players.
°micros = basics=> Let the gorges build non-mature structures instead of micros (maybe not whip and RT, or maybe let the comm upgrade harvesters ?). Would let gorges build structures on walls/in vents.
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> for the idea but it needs some tweaks.
A very good idea. This way they dont have to add this to balance concerns of res.
<!--quoteo(post=1868901:date=Aug 14 2011, 07:19 AM:name=PedoKuma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PedoKuma @ Aug 14 2011, 07:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1868901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like the idea, should make gorges more fun to play/useful, <b>but</b>, we would have 3 "kind" of structures (micro/basic/mature). As it's already hard to see which kind a structure is when in-game (I'm not sure the skins are different between basic and mature, you have to aim at the structure and read its name.), having a new kind would make the things harder.
Possible fixes :
°Tall scale => Would be the easiest way to differentiate and add this to the game, as it don't require an ex nihilo skin (just make the skin smaller). But as you need a significant difference between two scales to make them easy to differentiate, you would have BIG mature chambers or REALY small micro. That would also be non intuitive as, if your micro-crag has the same skin but in smaller than your basic crag, why can't he umbra/heal you? (same thing for upgrades).
°New skins => Require work and doesn't feel intuitive to have 3 different skins for the "same" structure unless they have derteminated similitaries (ie: the glowing light for the crag), and could be hard for new players.
°micros = basics=> Let the gorges build non-mature structures instead of micros (maybe not whip and RT, or maybe let the comm upgrade harvesters ?). Would let gorges build structures on walls/in vents.
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> for the idea but it needs some tweaks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have a point and making a smaller structure would work or maybe altering the color a bit when it is dropped by a gorge. I dont want to make more work for the devs =)
Problem with building Non-mature structures right off the bat is it takes away from the alien comms tools. If they are mini you could even drop the Pres cost for gorges since they are missing 2/3 of it's abilities and it will cost the comm res to upgrade it. That way gorges can do what they do best and assist aliens at choke points and fronts with structures.
And yes tweaks would have to be made to make it less complicated or confusing, but i believe it would be worth it. I loved my gorge in NS1 (my fav class) and now they are only good early game (pre-GLs and flamers) except for the field medic.
In order to maintain some continuity between NS1 and NS2, the gorge should drop structures similar in appearance to the defense, sensory and movement chambers from back in NS1. But, to avoid the confusion between three different types of structures, the structures should closely resemble their NS2 counterparts. I.E. a defense chamber should look much more like a craig that a defense chamber.
Plot wise, a sensory chamber sprouting into a shade or a defense chamber swelling into a craig would fit in very well to the game’s theme of evolution.
Personally, I think that smaller versions of the same structure make the game seem rushed and ugly. However, the development team consists of only a few people, so smaller structures used temporarily as a place holder would not be a problem.
to maintain balance, you can apply the simple rule:
20 energy cyst, 30 energy drifter (current values)
3 p.res mini cyst, 4.5 mini chamber
that's just the balance based on hive energy, I left here out how usefull a mini cyst is compared to a mini structure. I think better would be to make the p.res costs 3 : 5 and balance the health / usefullnes for that mini structure based on 5 p.res (very weak compared to the "grown up" structure). also I think the gorge should only be able to build the chambers which have been unlocked by the commander, rather than making a decision on his own by dropping the first chamber (and tying the hive to it, like it was in NS1). but this has already been mentioned, just wanted to repeat it once more since I think it's very important.
one more thing: the whip should be drifters only. don't forget that you can walk around with it, which would require more coding to consider "wall walking". And a small different between comm and gorge is no problem: one can build whips only, one can build Hydras only.
Maybe i will try to implement that in my mod and see how it works out (with the ns1 models for mini structures) :)
Gorge is my fav class into ns1 too, i actually kill more with it than with a fade %-)
Since the shift is currently not in the game im not sure about the passive effect (maybe increased energy regen?)
20 energy cyst, 30 energy drifter (current values)
3 p.res mini cyst, 4.5 mini chamber
that's just the balance based on hive energy, I left here out how usefull a mini cyst is compared to a mini structure. I think better would be to make the p.res costs 3 : 5 and balance the health / usefullnes for that mini structure based on 5 p.res (very weak compared to the "grown up" structure). also I think the gorge should only be able to build the chambers which have been unlocked by the commander, rather than making a decision on his own by dropping the first chamber (and tying the hive to it, like it was in NS1). but this has already been mentioned, just wanted to repeat it once more since I think it's very important.
one more thing: the whip should be drifters only. don't forget that you can walk around with it, which would require more coding to consider "wall walking". And a small different between comm and gorge is no problem: one can build whips only, one can build Hydras only.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what was needed to help balance this out. Thank you for your input and adding it to your popular mod =)
<!--quoteo(post=1868984:date=Aug 14 2011, 07:23 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Aug 14 2011, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1868984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I implemented the basics in my mod. it's now working for the mini shade and mini crag (including reduced passive effects and option to upgrade).
Since the shift is currently not in the game im not sure about the passive effect (maybe increased energy regen?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope it is increased energy gain like in NS1. Always was nice to have one near by to get a bile bomb barrage going, lerk gas spam (though with the short range i cant see that anymore.), or countering the flamers in forward locations.
I think these mini-chambers should cost 10 PRes just so Gorges cannot spam them early on and make more of a personal sacrifice for the benefit of the team.
<a href="http://www.mediafire.com/?hd9hqxa8kvt3s2z" target="_blank">Prototyping Mod 3.3</a>
there are graphical glitches, I'm not very good in making models. If someone knows how to extract the animations and create bump maps and all those little extras, feel free to add it :) (I used the ns1 models as a source)
edit: btw. I think I will not make the mini RT. there should be still a reason to produce drifters (other than hives and whips), and since you cannot choose the placement of an RT (it has to be on a resource node) there are less benefits for the comm. also, i want that the comm has full control over the economy.
<a href="http://www.mediafire.com/?hd9hqxa8kvt3s2z" target="_blank">Prototyping Mod 3.3</a>
there are graphical glitches, I'm not very good in making models. If someone knows how to extract the animations and create bump maps and all those little extras, feel free to add it :) (I used the ns1 models as a source)
edit: btw. I think I will not make the mini RT. there should be still a reason to produce drifters (other than hives and whips), and since you cannot choose the placement of an RT (it has to be on a resource node) there are less benefits for the comm. also, i want that the comm has full control over the economy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very good point. RTs now that i think about it would be kinda dumb. Chambers were the most fun with gorges.
if you download it and try it, just want to say as a disclaimer: the shift causes some server "hickups". i don't know why, maybe thats because of the target filtering function i wrote or about other currently unknown stuff. i woulod recommend to play the mod without the shift at the moment
I disagree. Alien structures are not simple buildings we can recycle but living static creatures. Flavorwise, being able to move a structure would need the gorge to drag them (don't think the little gorgies have enough strength) like a dog would drag a heavy think behind him. While that would be cute and a solution to bring structures on the frontlines, I think the OP's proposition is more interesting.
As one of my favourite lifeforms, I would love to bring more support to my friends without bothering the alien commander with heavy drifter manipulation. What RisingSun, Feha and Schimmel propose is really fitting with what the NS2 gorge could do to improve his utility without taking anything from the commander. The Alien Commander still would have to drop the first hive-bound chamber for each hive to make the mini-version available for gorges (those mini-versions only having a passive ability).
Completing :
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Gorge Only Structures:</b>
Mini-Cyst
Hydras
Mini-Shade
Mini-Crag
Mini-Shift
<b>Commander only structures:</b>
Hive
RT
Cyst
Whip
Shade
Crag
Shift<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And once more, it would bring more NS1 feeling to the game, and would improve the distributed aspect of the alien team and the asymmetrical aspect of the game already discussed <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114596" target="_blank">here</a>. And as already discussed before, this mini-chambers would make the gorge even more a support unit for the commander himself, and be a way to use resources otherwise than just spamming hydras and cysts on every walls).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I think that smaller versions of the same structure make the game seem rushed and ugly. However, the development team consists of only a few people, so smaller structures used temporarily as a place holder would not be a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 ; in the final product, having different but still similar (kinda Jellyfish shaped for mini-shades, kinda Coral shaped for mini-crags, kinda flat-mushroom shaped for the mini-shifts) skins between the real and the minis would be fine and not too confusing.
-
Aside from that, if a gorge would be able to build so many different things, a new menu (similar to the evolving menu) would seem necessary (I find the weapon menu very odd to place cysts and hydras, and I keep miss clicking when I'm switching between split and bilebomb, ending up placing cysts everywhere).
The idea is a small change to how the bilebomb works.
Instead of destroying the bomb on impact, it could roll of the floor until it hit a wall/building.
I had this effect bugged upon me a few builds ago due to lag, and the bilebomb was so much better.
because the gorge could stay near cover and roll the bombs across the room to hit the turrets, this way the damage of bilebomb won't have to be buffed.
The idea is a small change to how the bilebomb works.
Instead of destroying the bomb on impact, it could roll of the floor until it hit a wall/building.
I had this effect bugged upon me a few builds ago due to lag, and the bilebomb was so much better.
because the gorge could stay near cover and roll the bombs across the room to hit the turrets, this way the damage of bilebomb won't have to be buffed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem comes when marines put structures not on the floor (on railings, on low walls, or simply if the geometry of the room makes the room non flat at all, or even the power nodes themselves) the bombs would not really do their job. I think they are fine as they are, you can still move forward/backward (even sidewards) to bombard a base without being punished or profit from distraction provided by your alien team mates to destroy structures.
Very good point. I always miss click as well and drop things i dont want to. A menu would cure and since you have so much more to build it would fill out a menu nicely. Also being able to bind the structures to keys would be nice too (NS1 style).
buildings on rails must be a bug, I can't imagine that it will be possible in 1.0
the bombs would be able to roll up slight hills etc, just not sharp edges.
also when you fire them they still get spit out, so the standard fire arc is still as usual, just that instead of destroying the bomb on impact, it kept going.