Marine Squads Buff
sam8uca
Join Date: 2011-02-11 Member: 81359Members
Join Date: 2011-02-11 Member: 81359Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Let's all play together!</div>Marine Squads Buff
The Marine playing style in NS2 needs the squads to function as a basic instinct in every player, it is core to their playing style. Everybody knows it, just not everybody plays it that way. There needs to be a Valve style approach to the game mechanics and make it an instinctive style of play.
I would like to see a 'wall hack' vision mode that passively makes a squad stick together, whilst providing a tactical aid that leaves voice comms for more strategic planning.
From the start the Marines have a vision mode that when used provides a grainy and/or desaturated view (L4D style) and overlays all game entities with a colour layer the same as the alien vision mode, but blue for Marines and red for aliens.
The entities that are visible by one Marine can then be seen by all Marines in the same squad, making it a squad based wall hack. The rule being, at least one Marine must have line of sight on the entity.
So, the plus sides...
It's a wall hack! But it does not help lone wolf Marines, they must still see the entities.
It gives the Marines time to react, which means weapons that are slightly underpowered for the lone wolf could get an extra round or two in.
The Marines get a momentum effect, what the lead sees, you see, the advantages last as long as you stay with the lead Marine.
Powerful in corridors due to lack of line of sight, weak in open spaces.
Negatives...
Tunnel vision, it only works when Marines all go in the same direction, aliens best chance from striking at the sides or rear.
Short sighted (see limits), focus drawn to nearby entities.
Someone has to lead, they get no real advantage, when heavy armour turns up and in short supply, they should definitely  lead.
Now it needs limits and an upgrade path...
Range, whilst the grainy vision has normal range, the overlay only works up to 5m from each Marines line of sight, then range goes up with upgrades. So in practice, the rear end Marine gets the 'wall hack' as far as 5m in front of the lead Marine.
'Wall hack', only active as long as a Marine can see entity, upgrades could add a delay to losing the 'sight' of each entity when line of sight is lost, 1-2secs per level.
Tactical info, for what the non-leading individual Marines does not have line of sight on, it just give a coloured blur, an upgrade could allow you to see the actually entity type, then the next upgrade can be colour shading to % of health (aids targeting or repair decisions).
Aliens...
Would fear a Marine push and not want to go head to head, well, until the Onos turns up.
They have blink for fades and will have shade to null the squad vision.
They will still always be able to see the first Marine at the same time as he sees them, no 'wall hack' for the lead Marine.
The infestation gives them similar abilities on their areas of map control.
Feel free to tweak, bend or break this buff idea!
NS has been a fav of mine as soon as it came out, but the hardcore playing style of old is for a minority now, we have to give the less prepared player a way in. It is risk and reward, the rewards need to come sooner today, or people move on. NS is brutal for a player brought up on modern FPS, I want it to succeed, not be a memory in hardcore gaming history.
The Marine playing style in NS2 needs the squads to function as a basic instinct in every player, it is core to their playing style. Everybody knows it, just not everybody plays it that way. There needs to be a Valve style approach to the game mechanics and make it an instinctive style of play.
I would like to see a 'wall hack' vision mode that passively makes a squad stick together, whilst providing a tactical aid that leaves voice comms for more strategic planning.
From the start the Marines have a vision mode that when used provides a grainy and/or desaturated view (L4D style) and overlays all game entities with a colour layer the same as the alien vision mode, but blue for Marines and red for aliens.
The entities that are visible by one Marine can then be seen by all Marines in the same squad, making it a squad based wall hack. The rule being, at least one Marine must have line of sight on the entity.
So, the plus sides...
It's a wall hack! But it does not help lone wolf Marines, they must still see the entities.
It gives the Marines time to react, which means weapons that are slightly underpowered for the lone wolf could get an extra round or two in.
The Marines get a momentum effect, what the lead sees, you see, the advantages last as long as you stay with the lead Marine.
Powerful in corridors due to lack of line of sight, weak in open spaces.
Negatives...
Tunnel vision, it only works when Marines all go in the same direction, aliens best chance from striking at the sides or rear.
Short sighted (see limits), focus drawn to nearby entities.
Someone has to lead, they get no real advantage, when heavy armour turns up and in short supply, they should definitely  lead.
Now it needs limits and an upgrade path...
Range, whilst the grainy vision has normal range, the overlay only works up to 5m from each Marines line of sight, then range goes up with upgrades. So in practice, the rear end Marine gets the 'wall hack' as far as 5m in front of the lead Marine.
'Wall hack', only active as long as a Marine can see entity, upgrades could add a delay to losing the 'sight' of each entity when line of sight is lost, 1-2secs per level.
Tactical info, for what the non-leading individual Marines does not have line of sight on, it just give a coloured blur, an upgrade could allow you to see the actually entity type, then the next upgrade can be colour shading to % of health (aids targeting or repair decisions).
Aliens...
Would fear a Marine push and not want to go head to head, well, until the Onos turns up.
They have blink for fades and will have shade to null the squad vision.
They will still always be able to see the first Marine at the same time as he sees them, no 'wall hack' for the lead Marine.
The infestation gives them similar abilities on their areas of map control.
Feel free to tweak, bend or break this buff idea!
NS has been a fav of mine as soon as it came out, but the hardcore playing style of old is for a minority now, we have to give the less prepared player a way in. It is risk and reward, the rewards need to come sooner today, or people move on. NS is brutal for a player brought up on modern FPS, I want it to succeed, not be a memory in hardcore gaming history.
Comments
I do think the idea of squads is somewhat understated in NS2 because its a rather old style FPS unlike the new-fangled squad systems for the BF series and the like, thus people tend to play it more like quake and less like BF2, which is again, their choice.
Even a minor emphasis on squads, such as the inclusion of a squad menu (which doesn't even do anything) would give people the heads up this that it could be more useful, but I think such obtrusive measures aren't really needed. I see decent marines traveling in packs all the time and I don't think that lack of squad play is a major factor in marine losses. Losses typically come from:
1: Maladaptive Playing style:
I've seen game after game where marines will try the same tired strategy endlessly while the aliens outflank and outmaneuver them by striking at anything else that's undefended while they hurl themselves into hydra gardens. I've seen marines endlessly grabbing shotguns but being unable to take even a room because they don't have the aoe structure destroying of a Grenade Launcher. You have to adapt to new and changing game conditions and lots of people just run around with the same load out every time regardless of what they're fighting.
2: No/Bad Commander: Armor 1 is pretty much required. If you're facing 2 bite skulks you'll see squads of marines dying in droves. Same goes for multiple IP's, and consolidating expansions before investing heavily in them. The number of times I've seen marine expansions fail because the commander decides to drop the resource tower first, with a single marine guarding it. He gets skulked in short order and the RT is wasted. I've seen the same happen with alien commanders who rush to take SA before they put cysts by the entrance so the gorge can build hydras (you need the pres to drop the hydras so you need the commander to make cysts.) The marines come, there's no serious defense, they get swept aside and the hive is wasted. NS2 favors steady progressive structure based expansion right now, if you jump on a new node without consolidating the gains with defensive structures you're going to either tie up your entire team to make sure one player doesn't kill it or you're going to lose the node when one guy comes by an axes/bites it to death.
3: Inability to organize: This isn't the same thing as squads. I constantly see squads, often 3-4 marines at once, they can be formidable no matter where they are, the problem occurs when they're running around in heliport while the commander is trying to push SA with his remaining 2 marines. Both sides are at fault but the failure here, is a failure to have everyone on the same page, which will occur regardless of whether squads are around or not.
I just don't feel keeping it old skool without giving modern players time to learn the depth is the risk a independent games company can take, they are not modding in there spare time now.
The truth will be in the playing, but the fact so many of us can't 'get it' means there is an issue and aliens win stats show an issue too (beta, I know).
The simple answer would be just up the Marines individual damage output and armour until the win stats turn 50/50.
I just don't want to see new players giving up and leaving us with a limited number of traditional players.
Squad bonuses are just silly, maybe just give the commander the ability to drop a 'squad' medpack, if you and your other marines are close to eachother, (where your bubbles are touching and all that), he drops the squad medpack and it heals everyone for whatever type of percent. Would obviously cost more res than regular medpacks, say.. 5res to heal everyone 25% 10res 35% 15res 50%.
That's the only type of thing i'd like to see.
Except UWE hasn't rejected this idea yet. In fact, they've mostly been silent recently about what they are going to do with squads (understandably, since they have a lot on their plate). I'm a fan of squad buffs, since clearly defined positive reinforcement is a very good way of getting people to work together. The problem with the current approach (stick together or die) is that it is a) not clearly spelled out to new players and b) unnecessarily adds to the learning curve.
<!--quoteo(post=1866963:date=Aug 6 2011, 09:12 AM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Aug 6 2011, 09:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866963"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One reason for the win stats, believe it or not, is the aim of marines. And currently, pro player or noob, your aim is being negative affected by frame rates. Once those go up, marines will start to win more often. it's difficult to say currently which side is "stronger".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens, hands down. I commed a game last night where as aliens we gave ourselves a handicap (no upgrades and no crags) and we still dominated the marines.
Also, I'd agree that this will improve marine win stats a little, but the poor framerates/server tick negatively impacts the aliens too. Besides the ranged classes (gorge/lerk), melee is affected by the lag and will make the skulk/fade even more deadly when its improved. Suffice to say, aliens are currently really op and will either need some serious nerfs or serious buffs on the marine side.
Expect it's been shut down by a larger portion of the community than the spoon fed mw2 kids who think every game should be easy and everyone should be on equal footing.
I don't think a squad menu is as necessary as just indicating squad play is suggested in eventual loading hints and the like.
But seriously, even if I don't agree with squad marine buffs doesn't mean I don't see where they're coming from and can't give reasons why I feel that way. I don't see much productivity over creating an unfriendly, elitist atmosphere in the game, that just drives people away until you have a game that doesn't make its financial potential over something as silly as the notion that "you're not cool if you're successful."
I don't think a squad menu is as necessary as just indicating squad play is suggested in eventual loading hints and the like.
But seriously, even if I don't agree with squad marine buffs doesn't mean I don't see where they're coming from and can't give reasons why I feel that way. I don't see much productivity over creating an unfriendly, elitist atmosphere in the game, that just drives people away until you have a game that doesn't make its financial potential over something as silly as the notion that "you're not cool if you're successful."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
League of legends and Heroes of newearth are elitist and they are quite successfull with thousands of players playing, I have given my reasons why I'm against this multiple times and I'm fed up of repeating myself, unlike the bads crying for squad buffs I'm not a broken record. Go back to MW2 and enjoy your levelling system and perks. The most profit this game is going to make is from players who enjoyed NS1, putting in features from popular garbage games that last a couple months before they have to release another copy of their crap game with new guns and maps is just going to turn the real players of NS against this game.
It's ok saying you don't care and we should go back to MW2 (never played it), but I just don't want to see NS2 dead on arrival.
My gut says UWE are looking at it seriously, but are keeping in quiet because of such strong differences in opinion.
To have all these great ideas for the aliens and think Marines just need weapon and armour upgrades will result in one awesome side full of life and variety, the other side being 'corridor and a gun' again.
Just wishing for more!
It's ok saying you don't care and we should go back to MW2 (never played it), but I just don't want to see NS2 dead on arrival.
My gut says UWE are looking at it seriously, but are keeping in quiet because of such strong differences in opinion.
To have all these great ideas for the aliens and think Marines just need weapon and armour upgrades will result in one awesome side full of life and variety, the other side being 'corridor and a gun' again.
Just wishing for more!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
more is coming but it doesn't need to be in the form of bull###### squad buffs to candy coat the game for run and gun game noobs, ns is not meant to be a run and gun, and if thats the way UWE is going to make it I want my money back for my pre-order, I pre-ordered the game expecting it to be every bit as hard, fun and frustrating that NS1 was not another generic shooter where everyone is fair and on equal footing.
But unlike LoL, you don't and shouldn't have to have a tutorial for an FPS. Giving people some kind of benefit for being in a squad will be a lot less frustrating for new players as they will actually understand why these Aliens keep killing them every time they walk outside their turret farms, rather than just whining and moaning about it in allchat. Excluding newer players because they are newer players doesn't make sense, and the game would suffer because of it.
Also, this wouldn't put everyone on an equal footing, but it would first buff the marine team slightly (which is needed), and would ensure that people stick together. It doesn't make it easy, boring or instantly rewarding, just puts another layer into an already complex game.
Also, this wouldn't put everyone on an equal footing, but it would first buff the marine team slightly (which is needed), and would ensure that people stick together. It doesn't make it easy, boring or instantly rewarding, just puts another layer into an already complex game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just adding a buff for being together isn't going get new people to stick together, how are they going to know theres a buff for sticking together? honestly your ideas make no sense.
Also if they did add some sort of buff or mechanic to encourage squads and team work, I'm sure they would add visual and audio feedback so players instantly know what is happening; if they didn't that would just be bad design.
I loved ns1, but I want to see UWE push NS2 into new areas and give me new experiences I couldn't ever get playing ns1. I don't want a better looking ns1.
Also if they did add some sort of buff or mechanic to encourage squads and team work, I'm sure they would add visual and audio feedback so players instantly know what is happening; if they didn't that would just be bad design.
I loved ns1, but I want to see UWE push NS2 into new areas and give me new experiences I couldn't ever get playing ns1. I don't want a better looking ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're joking right? games now a days are garbage, it's just the same ###### wrapped in a different wrapper and labled with a new name, modern warfare, mondern warfare 2, black ops, and the new one, and all the genres that follow that game style is ALL THE SAME GARBAGE, games were much better back in the day then they are now, the games back then were FUN it actually took work to be good at them not like nowadays where you pick up the controller and have everything spoon fed to you games are not "evolving" they are DEVOLVING into casual garbage just so that corporations can make money because they want games to be easy so they can get kids to beg and plead and throw hissyfits until their parents buys them the games. Most of us gamers end up going back and playing classics after playing a "new" game for a week or two after it's released because the game gets boring and too easy.
I agree that novice Marine players need to be issued more obvious visual and auditory cues to stay with as group. Apart from that, Marines already work a lot better when they're together, except for ... when they jump around like clowns and obstruct their team mates' line of fire and vision.
IMO the overall feel of the game is slightly too neutral, which needs some small improvements. Lone Marines should be discouraged from wandering off and exploring on their own. In RTS games, the feeling of claustrophobia is created by the dark Fog of War. In NS2, even if the map is not covered in darkness, intense colours (eg the red emergency lighting) can convey a sense of danger.
For instance, Power Points/Nodes only signal a warning (eg. flashing lights and sound alarm) when they're very low on health. If the alarm threshold is raised to, say when they have 75% health remaining, they will provide better indications of danger. Marines entering the room will instinctively check for enemies, and repair the complaining Power Points.
IMO the overall feel of the game is slightly too neutral, which needs some small improvements. Lone Marines should be discouraged from wandering off and exploring on their own. In RTS games, the feeling of claustrophobia is created by the dark Fog of War. In NS2, even if the map is not covered in darkness, intense colours (eg the red emergency lighting) can convey a sense of danger.
For instance, Power Points/Nodes only signal a warning (eg. flashing lights and sound alarm) when they're very low on health. If the alarm threshold is raised to, say when they have 75% health remaining, they will provide better indications of danger. Marines entering the room will instinctively check for enemies, and repair the complaining Power Points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well then we do an fps version of fog of way, darker maps, which requires players to stick together to make the best use of flashlights.
Some kind of visual or audio cue perhaps? In the same way that there's a visual and audio cue when the commander drops medpacks.
Difficult games are not necessarily fun games.
Old games are not "better" than new games, they are different.
You also don't speak for "most of us gamers", you just sound nostalgic and bitter.
We won, and kept winning, first heavy train, good times.
I think that motivating the marines and kharaa to stick together in a way can improve gameplay.
Perhaps making parts of the marine/Kharaa model glow a certain color when assigned a group by the com?
Would make identifying squads less difficult for com and squads.
IMO the overall feel of the game is slightly too neutral, which needs some small improvements. Lone Marines should be discouraged from wandering off and exploring on their own. In RTS games, the feeling of claustrophobia is created by the dark Fog of War. In NS2, even if the map is not covered in darkness, intense colours (eg the red emergency lighting) can convey a sense of danger.
For instance, Power Points/Nodes only signal a warning (eg. flashing lights and sound alarm) when they're very low on health. If the alarm threshold is raised to, say when they have 75% health remaining, they will provide better indications of danger. Marines entering the room will instinctively check for enemies, and repair the complaining Power Points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That I do like, up the tension with audio and light effects based on alien map control.
Like the Aliens movies (of course), alarms, strobes and venting gas based on power node damage, getting more intense as the power node goes down. Maybe a cold, clinical female voice saying 'power node at 50%', but limit the alarm period to 10sec after last damaged. It would hide some of the alien audio effects, making covering all arcs important, therefore wanting squad mates with you.
Then flip it when you enter infested areas with 'infestation noise' and a light mist to make it feel claustrophobic and a colour shift to make you feel out of place.
Don't just fear the aliens, fear the environment the aliens control as well.