OSX but no Linux?
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Join Date: 2010-06-21 Member: 72122Members
Join Date: 2010-06-21 Member: 72122Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Just curious on the reasoning.</div><a href="https://twitter.com/#!/NS2/statuses/99655978122883072" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/#!/NS2/statuses/99655978122883072</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a good chance of an OS X version and we'll certainly make the Linux dedicated server, but not sure about a linux client.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you port it to OSX then you must have the engine OGL-ready, considering that the server already is able to run on the Linux structure I find it hard to understand what would keep you from making a Linux client as well?
From my own experience writing a (very, very) basic engine in OpenGL for Linux the effort to get it to OSX (and Windows, for that matter) was hardly worth mentioning. Surely an entire game might scratch on surfaces I have never thought of but from what I <b>do</b> understand and know it's probably not a technical hurdle that is keeping you away from a Linux version.
I can't think of any other reason not to release for Linux either, care to help me understand, UWE?
(Has this even been said before? If so, I'm sorry.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a good chance of an OS X version and we'll certainly make the Linux dedicated server, but not sure about a linux client.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you port it to OSX then you must have the engine OGL-ready, considering that the server already is able to run on the Linux structure I find it hard to understand what would keep you from making a Linux client as well?
From my own experience writing a (very, very) basic engine in OpenGL for Linux the effort to get it to OSX (and Windows, for that matter) was hardly worth mentioning. Surely an entire game might scratch on surfaces I have never thought of but from what I <b>do</b> understand and know it's probably not a technical hurdle that is keeping you away from a Linux version.
I can't think of any other reason not to release for Linux either, care to help me understand, UWE?
(Has this even been said before? If so, I'm sorry.)
Comments
i have tried several times to get ns2 to work on wine and it doesn't. it requires more then inserting a cd, it requires a long time to get the game to work on wine.and its highly doubtful that the game will be playable even if you get it to start up and wine is probably why there is no native linux client for steam or ns2
theres a reason that alot of companys don't support linux, it's a pain in the ass due to it being open source and there are so many things that can go wrong, something you have installed on your linux build might not be the same as someone elses.
The way inputs are handled..
Audio system
Graphics
If all the libraries they are using are supported
Installer
etc
Writing the OpenGL render path is probably the easier part of all of this :D
Well, not really, it's hit or miss whether or not it's going to work for any given game.
Nothing 'just works' on linux, it's designed for people who don't mind spending time fiddling with everything to get it working exactly how they want it.
Nothing 'just works' on linux, it's designed for people who don't mind spending time fiddling with everything to get it working exactly how they want it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is a prime example of people who know what they are talking about
Any ideas? I heard once that a certain game was working when steam was launched trough wine, but the game itself was native (Steelstorm i think). Perhaps there is something the community can do.
Any ideas? I heard once that a certain game was working when steam was launched trough wine, but the game itself was native (Steelstorm i think). Perhaps there is something the community can do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well quite a few games on steam work on wine so when it comes to ns2 the only problems are the directx because it starts up but the background animation wont show up and i cant click on anything.and we also need to consider the fact that after that problem is fixed there are going to be performance issues that might make it unplayable so i think native is the proper path
Linux and OSX are very close to each other. Both use opengl and share tons of other libraries that are used by games.
So if there is a OSX client, oversimplified, all that is needed is to recompile under linux and it should work.
except the steam libraries, which are only available for servers under linux. Now the question is, how much do the steam server libraries offer that a linux game client could use.
Here is an old news:
<a href="http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=valve_steam_announcement&num=1" target="_blank">http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=arti...ement&num=1</a>
And here is a link to valve that is a tut to get Steam on Linux:
<a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Steam_under_Linux" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Steam_under_Linux</a>
Here is an old news:
<a href="http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=valve_steam_announcement&num=1" target="_blank">http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=arti...ement&num=1</a>
And here is a link to valve that is a tut to get Steam on Linux:
<a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Steam_under_Linux" target="_blank">http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Steam_under_Linux</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not the first time phoronix sold rumors as facts. Valve has demented that there's a native linux version being worked on like a year ago. There is a native linux version of steam, but only for dedicated servers and stuff.
And the wiki entry is only about wine. Wine is nice but anyone stating that it's a replacement for native code just doesn't have any clue.
Ah.. and btw.. there are plenty of games (e.g. HoN was the most recent one for me) that "just work" on my Ubuntu, which imo was way easier to install than my Win7. Gnu/Linux distros have their problems of course, but some trollish posts spawning again and again in this kind of threads just lack basic insight (wtf has "open source" to do with "works vs. doesn't work"?).
Linux and OSX are very close to each other. Both use opengl and share tons of other libraries that are used by games.
So if there is a OSX client, oversimplified, all that is needed is to recompile under linux and it should work.
except the steam libraries, which are only available for servers under linux. Now the question is, how much do the steam server libraries offer that a linux game client could use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh sothats what you were referring to,very true
<!--quoteo(post=1866907:date=Aug 6 2011, 03:05 AM:name=QuelTos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (QuelTos @ Aug 6 2011, 03:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not the first time phoronix sold rumors as facts. Valve has demented that there's a native linux version being worked on like a year ago. There is a native linux version of steam, but only for dedicated servers and stuff.
And the wiki entry is only about wine. Wine is nice but anyone stating that it's a replacement for native code just doesn't have any clue.
Ah.. and btw.. there are plenty of games (e.g. HoN was the most recent one for me) that "just work" on my Ubuntu, which imo was way easier to install than my Win7. Gnu/Linux distros have their problems of course, but some trollish posts spawning again and again in this kind of threads just lack basic insight (wtf has "open source" to do with "works vs. doesn't work"?).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
very true i would completly switch over to ubuntu if there was a native version of steam and ns2 in till then duel boot *sigh*
Thank you, now I don't need to write all this.
<!--quoteo(post=1866835:date=Aug 6 2011, 04:03 AM:name=RichardRahl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RichardRahl @ Aug 6 2011, 04:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->theres a reason that alot of companys don't support linux, <b>it's a pain in the ass due to it being open source</b> and there are so many things that can go wrong, something you have installed on your linux build might not be the same as someone elses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously: What? Please do explain that.
'Linux' can mean any one of like a dozen different operating systems.
If your program requires something that is not installed on your system then you install it. That's what package managers like apt-get or pacman are for, they resolve the dependencies and tell you what you need and then install that for you.
It really is not a problem at all.
If your program requires something that is not installed on your system then you install it. That's what package managers like apt-get or pacman are for, they resolve the dependencies and tell you what you need and then install that for you.
It really is not a problem at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the fact that linux requires you to do all that probably has something to do with why developing for linux is usually seen as a waste of money.
Most people who are going to buy your game are not going to be using linux, because you have to fiddle with it to get it to do anything.
Frankly I wouldn't even bother with OSX myself, but steam does have its big 'osx can do games, no really!' thing going so I suppose if anyone can help you turn a profit on it then it would be steam.
It is no harder to make a game work under linux, than it is under windows, if the game was correctly developed. The same by the way is true for windows. Or do you think windows games never depend on stuff that is not installed?
But we are talking about UWE here, right? An RTS/FPS-hybrid is not the biggest market among games. PCs are not the biggest market for games. Developing without a publisher is not the 'money-way'. Working transparently and close with the community, getting feedback during developing-time and being open for criticism is not what big companies do when they want to make big money.
If UWE would care for money more than anything else they would use their talents to create some Gears Of War-clone, published by EA and running on PS3 and XB360.
I don't really think the smaller community would be much of an argument for UWE, do you? In fact I believe the Linux community is exactly the kind of crowd that would prefer a game like NS2 over GoW 19.
Apart from that, I doubt you know much about installing software on Linux. Because in many cases it's faster and a lot less work than on Windows or OS X (repos, anyone?). As for the developer, I don't really know how much work it would be to create a Linux client, but if it already is running with OGL and OAL because of OS X and the server being already in a Linux environment… I'll just wait for an answer from cory before making any assumptions :)
But we are talking about UWE here, right? An RTS/FPS-hybrid is not the biggest market among games. PCs are not the biggest market for games. Developing without a publisher is not the 'money-way'. Working transparently and close with the community, getting feedback during developing-time and being open for criticism is not what big companies do when they want to make big money.
If UWE would care for money more than anything else they would use their talents to create some Gears Of War-clone, published by EA and running on PS3 and XB360.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which means they can probably ill afford any more losses.
There is nobody in the world that uses linux because they don't have access to windows or OSX, therefore developing for linux is a waste of time, as anyone who could buy it for linux can also buy it for one of the other two platforms. Linux is a curiosity, it is not a market share.
Anyway, I'd just love to know the reasoning behind the essence of that twitter post, maybe UWE could explain that… pretty please :)
It just doesn't make financial sense in any way I can see, and I don't really want to see UWE sink because they wasted time and money developing for linux.
Linux server makes sense, getting a linux distro rather than paying extra for a windows server version might be the only option someone has, so it allows more servers to be run, but everyone on the planet has a windows desktop version somewhere, and nobody who plays games uses just linux.
Perhaps this blogpost will enlighten you a little:
<a href="http://blog.wolfire.com/2008/12/why-you-should-support-mac-os-x-and-linux/" target="_blank">http://blog.wolfire.com/2008/12/why-you-sh...os-x-and-linux/</a>
you might also check out the humble indie bundle:
<a href="http://www.humblebundle.com/" target="_blank">http://www.humblebundle.com/</a>
Surprised about the OSX bit, I retract my statement about OSX being probably a silly idea.
I cite the article as evidence in favour of linux support being a stupid idea though.
Look at the humble indie bundle, look at how much money the linux users pay and how much the windows users.
Then look at point 3 in the blogpost (don't worry, i will even copy it here):
Having a Linux build meant coverage on Slashdot. This of course generated huge interest in not just the Linux version of Lugaru, but the Windows and Mac versions too. Lugaru also made an appearance in a few Linux magazines. A lot of people heard about and supported Lugaru simply because we had a Linux build.
I could go on and on, supporting linux will give you a hughe publicity boost. The effort if you have a osx version is minimal, and the publicity boost will greatly overcome the investement you made. A game like ns2 under linux will have a certain impact on newssites, that it would NEVER have if it came out just under windows (or even osx).
Spend the money on some advertising if you want advertising.
Or better yet, spend it on making the game good, rather than cheap tricks to get media coverage. If the game is actually fun it'll largely sell itself.
I made my argument, i think its conclusive.
You made yours, even with all benefits you hate linux so much, that no argument on this planet will convince you.
i think there is no point in continuing that discussion
I disagree because I see nothing compelling in the arguments, if the main appeal of developing for linux is that it draws more windows and OSX customers, then find ways to appeal to the windows and OSX customers, they're clearly the ones more worth appealing to.