Players should be POWERFUL, Teams should be POOR.
noisywalrus
Join Date: 2010-12-15 Member: 75694Members
Join Date: 2010-12-15 Member: 75694Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A layered -- but somewhat simple tweaky fix -- for too much res</div>Players should feel POWERFUL from the beginning.
Teams should feel POOR for the whole game.
Hard thing to balance. So, here's my two part suggestion:
First, we need to make stock players feel POWERFUL.
- Marine sprint speed should be upped. Time to bring a weapon up after a sprint should be cut by 75%.
- Marines should be retain the penalties for jumping, BUT their (first) jump height should be doubled. It should be a Move. An awesome juke. Skill-based movement, yes. Spastic twitch-outs, BF2 style dolphin diving nonsense, etc... NO.
- Rifle butt, when timed right, should be a 2-skulk distance, superhero-style knockback for no damage. I should be able to do this while reloading.
- Skulks should be faster and jump higher.
- Skulks should be able to leap twice (instead of once) and then be able to bite reliably.
- Skulk leap should be restored to hive 1. If you can implement a timed wall-bounding leap for no energy a la L4D, do it. Again, POWERFUL.
- Aside: Fixing skulk animations so they lead with their head -> torso - rump like an animal would rather than pivoting around the center would go a long way to understand where a skulk is going to be next. Sounds hard, but it would add a lot.
Why are these things important? It's important because you don't want to force players -- especially newer players -- into inevitably feeling bad for losing their expensive gun/evolution. Everything is going to be expensive because everyone is going to be POOR. Here's how:
- All upgrades require upkeep. A commander can cancel the upkeep, but the upgrade has to be researched again for full cost.
- If you are out of res for upkeep, then the upgrade is deactivated.
- Healing and reloading a special weapon from an armory should possibly require small PRes payment as well.
- It may be necessary to make the res system more granular (i.e. multiply all income/costs by 10).
Right now, the game is largely about getting to the end of the tech tree as quickly as possible. This is largely accomplished by taking a minimum amount of the map deemed necessary to secure max tech and then laming up the rest of it. Turtling should always be a disaster. Not because turtling doesn't work in real life or whatever, but because it's just not fun.
When everyone is poor, everyone actually fights for res nodes as if their life depended on it. Because it does. Hey, look at that, it's a territory game again!
Disclaimer: Obviously, this will require some balance.
Teams should feel POOR for the whole game.
Hard thing to balance. So, here's my two part suggestion:
First, we need to make stock players feel POWERFUL.
- Marine sprint speed should be upped. Time to bring a weapon up after a sprint should be cut by 75%.
- Marines should be retain the penalties for jumping, BUT their (first) jump height should be doubled. It should be a Move. An awesome juke. Skill-based movement, yes. Spastic twitch-outs, BF2 style dolphin diving nonsense, etc... NO.
- Rifle butt, when timed right, should be a 2-skulk distance, superhero-style knockback for no damage. I should be able to do this while reloading.
- Skulks should be faster and jump higher.
- Skulks should be able to leap twice (instead of once) and then be able to bite reliably.
- Skulk leap should be restored to hive 1. If you can implement a timed wall-bounding leap for no energy a la L4D, do it. Again, POWERFUL.
- Aside: Fixing skulk animations so they lead with their head -> torso - rump like an animal would rather than pivoting around the center would go a long way to understand where a skulk is going to be next. Sounds hard, but it would add a lot.
Why are these things important? It's important because you don't want to force players -- especially newer players -- into inevitably feeling bad for losing their expensive gun/evolution. Everything is going to be expensive because everyone is going to be POOR. Here's how:
- All upgrades require upkeep. A commander can cancel the upkeep, but the upgrade has to be researched again for full cost.
- If you are out of res for upkeep, then the upgrade is deactivated.
- Healing and reloading a special weapon from an armory should possibly require small PRes payment as well.
- It may be necessary to make the res system more granular (i.e. multiply all income/costs by 10).
Right now, the game is largely about getting to the end of the tech tree as quickly as possible. This is largely accomplished by taking a minimum amount of the map deemed necessary to secure max tech and then laming up the rest of it. Turtling should always be a disaster. Not because turtling doesn't work in real life or whatever, but because it's just not fun.
When everyone is poor, everyone actually fights for res nodes as if their life depended on it. Because it does. Hey, look at that, it's a territory game again!
Disclaimer: Obviously, this will require some balance.
Comments
Er, no, it shouldn't, use your head, don't sprint into combat, stop sprinting before you get into combat.
- Marines should be retain the penalties for jumping, BUT their (first) jump height should be doubled. It should be a Move. An awesome juke. Skill-based movement, yes. Spastic twitch-outs, BF2 style dolphin diving nonsense, etc... NO.
You realise that would give them the ability to jump over fades? How is that not the most ridiculous thing imaginable?
- Rifle butt, when timed right, should be a 2-skulk distance, superhero-style knockback for no damage. I should be able to do this while reloading.
You aren't supposed to be using it as a primary attack, if marines can easily smack skulks across the room, they have better melee capabilities than the skulks themsevles, which is a very bad idea.
- Skulks should be faster and jump higher.
Jumping higher yes, faster no, make them any faster and they're going to be almost impossible to control, especially once you upgrade with celerity.
- Skulks should be able to leap twice (instead of once) and then be able to bite reliably.
With the jump upgrade? Why not just make them automatically bounce off every surface they come into contact with, leap is powerful, you don't need to do it twice.
- All upgrades require upkeep. A commander can cancel the upkeep, but the upgrade has to be researched again for full cost.
Sounds incredibly annoying.
- If you are out of res for upkeep, then the upgrade is deactivated.
As does that.
- Healing and reloading a special weapon from an armory should possibly require small PRes payment as well.
Why?
- It may be necessary to make the res system more granular (i.e. multiply all income/costs by 10).
Again why? It's only being used in units of five right now for most things, the least expensive thing in the game is a mini cyst and that costs three.
<b>Making phase gates and tactical positioning useless? No thanks</b>
- Marines should be retain the penalties for jumping, BUT their (first) jump height should be doubled. It should be a Move. An awesome juke. Skill-based movement, yes. Spastic twitch-outs, BF2 style dolphin diving nonsense, etc... NO.
<b>Just no, this is an awful idea. Also, how do you define 'first' jump?</b>
- Rifle butt, when timed right, should be a 2-skulk distance, superhero-style knockback for no damage. I should be able to do this while reloading.
<b>This doesn't make any sense from either a gameplay or realism point of view</b>
- Skulks should be faster and jump higher.
<b>Skulks are hard enough to track at the moment, and skulks feel powerful at the moment anyway</b>
- Skulks should be able to leap twice (instead of once) and then be able to bite reliably.
<b>Skulks can leap three times, or twice and keep biting for a long time</b>
- Skulk leap should be restored to hive 1. If you can implement a timed wall-bounding leap for no energy a la L4D, do it. Again, POWERFUL.
<b>A skill-based jump off walls is planned, but it might cost adrenaline. Also; there's a good reason why leap is not tier 1 any more, marines just had no chance</b>
- Aside: Fixing skulk animations so they lead with their head -> torso - rump like an animal would rather than pivoting around the center would go a long way to understand where a skulk is going to be next. Sounds hard, but it would add a lot.
<b>I'm not massively opposed to this one, but I don't really see from a technical point of view how it's possible. Would have to be some very clever model moving, but the centre of the character would still be in the same place</b>
Why are these things important? It's important because you don't want to force players -- especially newer players -- into inevitably feeling bad for losing their expensive gun/evolution. Everything is going to be expensive because everyone is going to be POOR. Here's how:
- All upgrades require upkeep. A commander can cancel the upkeep, but the upgrade has to be researched again for full cost.
<b>This would require a massive restructure of the resource model, and I don't see how this makes sense. It just makes upgrades more expensive, and makes it more likely for stalemates to occur, as the team ahead will have more res, but it will cost them a lot more to maintain their advantage</b>
- If you are out of res for upkeep, then the upgrade is deactivated.
<b>Is this just for melee/armour upgrades? So, half-way in combat you suddenly lose because your commander just zero'd your resources buying another sentry? No</b>
- Healing and reloading a special weapon from an armory should possibly require small PRes payment as well.
<b>Making the marines severely gimped, and afraid to move out, as it costs them a lot of money to get hurt.</b>
- It may be necessary to make the res system more granular (i.e. multiply all income/costs by 10).
<b>So a Flamethrower now costs 500? I don't like this</b>
Right now, the game is largely about getting to the end of the tech tree as quickly as possible. This is largely accomplished by taking a minimum amount of the map deemed necessary to secure max tech and then laming up the rest of it. Turtling should always be a disaster. Not because turtling doesn't work in real life or whatever, but because it's just not fun.
<b>This is because tier 3 isn't in yet</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Responses in bold. This just seems like it's been put together after playing a couple of games, I notice that you only talk about one alien, the Skulk, but you'd have to do something to the other classes for aliens to make this fit together, without the tier 1 units being the most powerful units. You do feel powerful, as a marine when you're in a group, and as an alien when you're dropping down from the ceiling to nom some rines. That's the way it should be. There are some things that UWE are working on to encourage marines to stick together, but that's next patch to look forward to!
I am dependent on my team mates and they are dependent on me.
My team is powerful, I am weak on my own.
Without my mates I cannot win. Together, we are unstoppable.
This is unique to the Natural Selection experience. I will stop and cover my team mate as he sprints down a dark hallway. He will turn around and cover me so I can join him. He will not get a killsteak bonus for ramboing the other team alone. He will die. And the team will lose.
I hear what you are saying about turtling noisywalrus. I agree turtling must be a risky strategy with clear negatives. Strengthening individuals and weakening the team though? That goes against what I play this game for.
I am dependent on my team mates and they are dependent on me.
My team is powerful, I am weak on my own.
Without my mates I cannot win. Together, we are unstoppable.
This is unique to the Natural Selection experience. I will stop and cover my team mate as he sprints down a dark hallway. He will turn around and cover me so I can join him. He will not get a killsteak bonus for ramboing the other team alone. He will die. And the team will lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't find it to be the case. Since NS1 the measure of skill has not been 'how many games did your team win' but instead 'how many skulks can you kill by yourself with the LMG'.
People are no more inclined to work together in NS than in any other game, people don't work together most of the time in any game, if people want to work together they'll do it in any game, but that usually requires a clan, you get organised teamplay in almost any game, NS has really nothing to do with it.
However I would say that if you make players crappy on their own, you're just making a crappy experience for everyone, powerful players will be far more powerful in groups, weak players will be marginally less weak in groups, you don't need silly artificial bonuses for being in groups, the simple virtue of having more guys around to do everything faster and better is enough.
My team is powerful, I am weak on my own.
Without my mates I cannot win. Together, we are unstoppable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alien Version:
I am not dependent on my teammates and they are not dependent on me.
My team is powerful, I am powerful on my own.
Without my mates I can win. Togheter, we are unstoppable and at least 2times more dangerous than a marine group.
I am not dependent on my teammates and they are not dependent on me.
My team is powerful, I am powerful on my own.
Without my mates I can win. Togheter, we are unstoppable and at least 2times more dangerous than a marine group.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which rather nicely illustrates my point, individual power does not preclude the desirability of groups. Aliens can do a lot alone, but against a group of marines, they need backup simply because half a dozen marines are always going to be more powerful than a single alien.
Really speaking, marines should always benefit from groups more than aliens do anyway, because marines are ranged, which means they can focus fire much better than aliens. They're also smaller a lot of the time, which means they get in each other's way less. You don't need to gimp them horribly to make groups a good thing.
keep current res model.
NS2 becomes another classic game with a healthy competitive environment that allows noobs to have fun and keeps the regulars coming back for more strategic knowledge and movement improvement. Best game ever.
What NS1 were you playing? The one I played was one of the most xenophobic and stagnant games I ever played, it was fun in the beginning but it very rapidly devolved into elitism and excluding everyone who wasn't perfectly knowledgeable about the game.
I wouldn't call that a healthy competitive environment, as a healthy competitive environment should involve lots of new talent, and I certainly wouldn't call it noob friendly.
Not really a fault in the game I suppose as much as the community, but NS1 is certainly not something I would call a desirable goal when it comes to things like competitive fun and openness to new players.
I wouldn't call that a healthy competitive environment, as a healthy competitive environment should involve lots of new talent, and I certainly wouldn't call it noob friendly.
Not really a fault in the game I suppose as much as the community, but NS1 is certainly not something I would call a desirable goal when it comes to things like competitive fun and openness to new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't hate the game because you got your feelings hurt. It's merely a result from NS1 being much more in depth and multi-faceted than other games as games with high skill curves will always produce gaps in the playerbase.
Which means that like I said, NS1 was not a healthy competitive game or an accessible one, why claim that it was if you don't believe it?
He should be able to do things to help the team other than just try and solo the hive with a shotgun.
Plant a sensor in the room? Sabotage their tech some how? Plant c4 that only the commader can use some how?
Could players pick some sort of upgrades to help the team? So maybe an engineer would only be able to use a shotgun and have much weaker armor but he can build much faster and plant mines. An assassin class which can cloak and scout when not moving and has some sort of melee weapon? Anyway thats another topic.
Simply I think team work is the core of NS2 and if anything should be expanded apon. Solo rambo players already do very well if they have backup from the commander and can aim.
He should be able to do things to help the team other than just try and solo the hive with a shotgun.
Plant a sensor in the room? Sabotage their tech some how? Plant c4 that only the commader can use some how?
Could players pick some sort of upgrades to help the team? So maybe an engineer would only be able to use a shotgun and have much weaker armor but he can build much faster and plant mines. An assassin class which can cloak and scout when not moving and has some sort of melee weapon? Anyway thats another topic.
Simply I think team work is the core of NS2 and if anything should be expanded apon. Solo rambo players already do very well if they have backup from the commander and can aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can already do more things than solo the hive, kill the cysts to cut off the infestation, go for RTs rather than hives, ignoring the fun bits of the game and shooting at buildings is already the most useful thing either team can do, I don't think you need to encourage it.
Anything you do to improve a player will improve the teamwork options that player has, by empowering a player you make them more useful to be around.
Say you buff rifles, suddenly rifle marines are more useful, if you see a rifle marine you want to hang around him because he's powerful, and he <i>will</i> help you out because he will want to shoot aliens whenever he can, thereby keeping you safe.
Conversely, if you do something like add healing to the marine armor welding ability, you don't really make other marines that much more desirable to be around, because chances are they won't heal you any more than they already do, it's sort of against their direct interest to make themselves vulnerable by staring at you and holding E, whereas if they help you out by shooting aliens that's fun, directly beneficial to them, and also helpful to the team.
Basically, teamwork only things don't work, because they cause a conflict of interest in players, you should not expect people to sacrifice their fun or their safety for the team, because they aren't going to want to do that, instead you should focus on ways to make personal fun and personal success <i>also</i> helpful to the team. Because they don't need to be at odds, and if they don't need to be, why should they? This isn't a character building exercise, it's a game, it's supposed to be fun.
Last games i started to weld my buddys inbetween fights, suddently everybody else did it too.(sometimes even in fights) With the right timing(and a few medpacks now and then) it greatly increases your force.
Shooting is fun, but shooting for longer and not suddently be alone is even better.
keep current res model.
NS2 becomes another classic game with a healthy competitive environment that allows noobs to have fun and keeps the regulars coming back for more strategic knowledge and movement improvement. Best game ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The NS1 competitive seen was NOT healthy at HIGH end play, there were 3 clans that dwarfed everybody else and that was the entirety of the high end competitive scene. The three clans were .torment. and tronic and BM]. Having played for both torment and tronic for quite a while, I can tell you, there wasn't much fun happening the 30th time you had to play the same team because there was no-one else to play.
Last games i started to weld my buddys inbetween fights, suddently everybody else did it too.(sometimes even in fights) With the right timing(and a few medpacks now and then) it greatly increases your force.
Shooting is fun, but shooting for longer and not suddently be alone is even better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A latent healing aura which increases the more people who are in your squad would be even better. Does the same thing but doesn't get in the way.
I, too, miss the health rings. They were quite good ones. It's quite difficult to get good readings on your teammates' health in NS2.
He's saying the player should never feel weak or underpowered, even from the start, but the team as a whole should feel very desperate for tech and resource points. It's a solid idea that would provide the fun and fast combat NS1 was known for while providing enough reason to hold territory, collect resources, etc. The idea may have to be fleshed out a little more but overall I think it there's a potential to improve gameplay here.
stop mixing throwing more combat ideas into ns maps, seriously. Keep it separate, these are two different types of games all together.
NS1 tried to make it all about teamplay by removing kill stats at one point. What do players do? Constantly check kill stats in console log. You can look down your nose at those other selfish gamers all you want. Both of us might be doing it on an empty server. Surprised? Yeah, I love teamwork. I'm also realistic.
Some modern context from games everyone has played:
- TF2 had the right idea with opportunistic unit-level cooperation. You shouldn't have to get a whole team together to reap the benefits of teamwork. Heavy/medic. Engineer/pyro.
- WoW largely killed EQ and others by being a solo game with optional grouping. EQ suffered from the same sort of "group at all costs" mentality.
The "stock character" experience should be deep (buff evasion and movement abilities on both sides, not damage) while making players more reliant on the team goal of getting more territory in order to secure a marginal capability improvement (nerf, sort of *) and deny that capability to the enemy. A smaller bounding box or no collision for friendlies would go a long way to improving teamwork. A lone skulk is more likely do to more aggregate damage to a cluster of marines, but more like to kill spread out marines. Don't force marines together by making them helpless. Encourage them to go together by increasing the capability of both sides.
Right now, it boils down to flailing. Alien/marine encounters that do not result in a surprise kill are often flailing disasters until someone hits someone else, mostly by luck. What they *should* be about is distance. Marines should be able to be able to increase distance as a fundamental character trait. Aliens should be able to reduce distance as a fundamental character trait. Death should be a side effect of distance.
What behaviors should we be trying to reinforce? Get territory: win. Lose territory: lose. Right now, securing tech is forever. There needs to be a way to revoke enemy tech without having to be in their base to do it. Tying tech to base health makes the game very binary: either the main base is destroyed or it is not. Upkeep is better than anything I've read here.
Consider it. No sacred cows. It doesn't matter if it's always been a certain way. This is an intervention: that way is broken.
* For reference on what a good marine upgrade is, look at the flamethrower. After months of being a silly, blinding, instant death, it's now a good purpose-built support weapon. No one should ever feel, "With X I am invincible, but with Y I am a disposable meat shield." Doing that makes the whole game about getting X. Shotguns and fades fall into this bucket currently; both need to be toned down.
stop mixing throwing more combat ideas into ns maps, seriously. Keep it separate, these are two different types of games all together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soo we're living in a bizzaro world where wolfenstein enemy territory was never praised for being an extremely enjoyable team experience?
You have to try very very hard to make a mechanic that directly opposes teamwork, unless you start nerfing players for being around other players you're going to end up with it being preferable to work in groups all the time. Saying a particular mechanic ruins teamwork is probably not correct.
You have to try very very hard to make a mechanic that directly opposes teamwork, unless you start nerfing players for being around other players you're going to end up with it being preferable to work in groups all the time. Saying a particular mechanic ruins teamwork is probably not correct.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, ET. How I wish more people loved you. Both the Wolf and Quake varieties. Great games, but they suffered from some of the same problems. You can either make something infinitely accessible and "stupid" by enlightened gamer standards or you can stuff it full of complex mechanics and have empty servers 3 months after launch. Finding that balance is tough.
Some mechanics do ruin teamwork, I think. As an example, take the Battlefield sniper rifle distance bonus. A summary for people who don't know what it is: The game awards 50ish points for a kill and then a "bonus" score the farther away you are from a target when scoring a kill with a sniper rifle. This is a retard mechanic. It encourages players to play the lottery from a mile away hoping to get a gigantic killshot number to take a screenshot of. Combine that with the DICE insistence on still including sparse, sitting-duck maps and you have a formula for dead weight.
<!--quoteo(post=1865850:date=Aug 2 2011, 04:30 PM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Aug 2 2011, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm really enjoying reading your posts noisywalrus. I don't agree with all of your points, but they are well throught out. The TF2 cooperation point is excellent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you. It is a fine compliment than to be respected by someone who disagrees with you. (No sarcasm.)
As a self-criticism, I'm suggesting a lot of things at once which are not connected in obvious ways. It could have been stated better. I would be suspicious if it was *not* received in a negative way, at least at first. I can only be sure about problems. Solutions require experimentation.
You know when I said 'nerfing the player for being around other people' I didn't actually think there was a game out there that really did that...
Jesus christ games industry do you just dredge the alley behind the studio and pile whatever ends up in the bucket into a chair and call it the lead designer?
Jesus christ games industry do you just dredge the alley behind the studio and pile whatever ends up in the bucket into a chair and call it the lead designer?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In its defense, the latest iteration (Bad Company 2) is an excellent game other than the pandering to sniper opportunists. Destructible everything really adds a ton to the genre. It makes going back to non-destructible cover painful. The ability to completely change the territory dynamic leads to some truly memorable moments. (e.g. being chased by a tank that is destroying a whole block one house at a time trying to smoke you out, like in the movie Goldeneye)
If you haven't tried it, I think it can be picked up pretty cheap on steam.
If you haven't tried it, I think it can be picked up pretty cheap on steam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have, I dlslike it because of the silly unlock system that makes all your guns crap until you grind for a week or two.
That and I always end up on the losing team, like, to the point where I suspect foul play, even if I shot at my own team members I don't think it would be possible for my team to lose as much as it does. Dunno if it has some stupid autobalance or something.
Battlefield was better when it was 2 and 2142, horrible performance aside the minimal unlock system made those games far more enjoyable, same with call of duty 4 over later versions, 4 gave you at least two of the best guns in the game at the start, so unlocks weren't neccesary, newer games all seem to favour giving you way better guns at the end. Same thing with crysis 2, I absolutely loved the demo, best shooter I'd played in years, bought the full game and absolutely hated it.
Really wish developers would learn how to do unlock systems properly, or just get rid of them, there's a reason I don't play world of warcraft, and also a reason I did play guild wars.
In a sense I have kind of a problem with NS for this reason, I don't think endgame stuff should be super expensive and super powerful, I think the enemy territory/COD4 approach of minor improvements and expanded functionality is much better. Early game tech should still be an important part of the late game strategy, really speaking it should be the lion's share of the late game strategy as it's the thing that's easiest to get, your late game stuff should be specialist options or alternatively, really easy to equip everyone with.