<!--quoteo(post=1862616:date=Jul 23 2011, 12:36 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Jul 23 2011, 12:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->pre-orders are way too big a gamble, generally speaking, unless you're rich. Shell out $60 today just to read reviews on launch day that the game sucks ass? Not falling for it anymore.
Out of grim curiosity, I looked at the pre-order site for the direct download version, and they actually CHARGE $5 EXTRA for the "PRIVILEGE" of giving them free money for a product that doesn't exist yet. Easily the most hilarious thing I've seen today. This is the first time I've seen a publisher with the balls to charge extra for a pre-order. The sane ones give you a considerable pre-order discount as a way of saying "thanks for having faith in us and investing in our game".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I pre-ordered my collectors edition the first day, why? they are only making a set amount of copies, two they are only selling a set amount of copies at launch which means if you havn't pre-ordered you won't get one for a few weeks after launch until the servers settle, which has both benefits and dis-advantages, as for the 5$ charge that isn't bio-ware enforcing that, that is the 3rd party retailer who is charging you a handling fee to keep track of everything and call you when your copy is in, I honestly don't see an issue with it.
As for TOR being a "clone" of WoW there is nothing wrong with continueing with tried and true methods, if you think about it, WoW was a clone of everquest, and everquest was a clone of ultima, and ultima was created by creating an online game made from ideas from D&D.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I've pre-ordered. The early days of any MMO are when I find it most fun, because I love it when everything is still new, and nobody really knows what they're doing yet. As long as I get a 'regular' games' worth of gameplay out of it, I'll be happy. I'm going to play with some IRL friends, but as soon as I know which server I'll be delighted to post it here in the hope of gathering some UWE folk.
<!--quoteo(post=1862803:date=Jul 23 2011, 03:54 PM:name=Shockwave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shockwave @ Jul 23 2011, 03:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've pre-ordered. The early days of any MMO are when I find it most fun, because I love it when everything is still new, and nobody really knows what they're doing yet. As long as I get a 'regular' games' worth of gameplay out of it, I'll be happy. I'm going to play with some IRL friends, but as soon as I know which server I'll be delighted to post it here in the hope of gathering some UWE folk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can count me in.
well not on eu, I meant on N/A servers, also I feel bad about you EU players you're kinda getting the shaft with this release. sorry guys!
<!--quoteo(post=1862795:date=Jul 23 2011, 09:28 PM:name=RichardRahl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RichardRahl @ Jul 23 2011, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->everquest was a clone of ultima<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're the first person I've ever heard make that claim. I have no idea how you got that impression.
<!--quoteo(post=1862880:date=Jul 23 2011, 08:41 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jul 23 2011, 08:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're the first person I've ever heard make that claim. I have no idea how you got that impression.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it might not be ultima, but I remember a discussion long ago on another board about everquest having ideas taken from somethign else, maybe I had it wrong and everquest got it's ideas from DnD.
<!--quoteo(post=1862748:date=Jul 23 2011, 04:33 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jul 23 2011, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's WoW with lightsabers. You can agree or disagree whether that's a problem, but save us both the time and frustration and don't try to convince me that it's not a fact, because I don't think you can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh? At no point have I said it isn't WoW with lightsabres. It IS WoW with lighsabres. That's a good thing. I bet an MMORPG that goes out of its way to not be like WoW wouldn't be very successful. The point I was making is people hating on the game for it being similar to WoW.
And that's where we disagree, sherpa. It's a bad thing. Oh don't get me wrong, I bet it'll be good for sales. At least initially. But I don't give a ###### about sales. I'm a customer, I care about quality, about innovation, about games that advance the genre rather than rehashing it. I don't care how much money someone makes off me. That's their concern, not mine.
So we both agree that it's WoW with lightsabers. Yet it surprises you that it catches flak for that? Why? You say it's a good thing that it's WoW with lightsabers. You "bet an MMORPG that goes out of its way to not be like WoW wouldn't be very successful." Is that because you'd rather just play WoW with lightsabers than try something new? Otherwise, why?
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited July 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1862827:date=Jul 23 2011, 09:37 PM:name=RichardRahl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RichardRahl @ Jul 23 2011, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862827"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well not on eu, I meant on N/A servers, also I feel bad about you EU players you're kinda getting the shaft with <strike>this release</strike> <i><b>with every game that gets released, because the games industry seems intent on pretending we're still in 1994.</b></i> sorry guys!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just filling in the obvious...
<!--QuoteBegin-sherpa+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sherpa)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i like the colour green<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-lolfighter+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->why don't you like the colour blue?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-sherpa+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sherpa)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i never said i don't like the colour blue? in fact i like it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-lolfighter+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but i don't like the colour blue<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm really confused about what we're discussing here!
As to your last question: the whole "should it be like WoW?" can be looked at from different perspectives. To me, WoW is a streamlined, polished MMORPG. If you create an MMORPG that uses a health and mana pool, abilities on a queue/cooldown basis, large PvE areas, instances, queued PvP battlegrounds, guilds, mounts, quests, all with minimised down time, it'll be called a WoW clone. But these things are the basis of an MMO, in my mind. Miss any of them out and it'll seem unfinished.
What would people have liked TOR to be to make it different to WoW?
As to your last question: the whole "should it be like WoW?" can be looked at from different perspectives. To me, WoW is a streamlined, polished MMORPG. If you create an MMORPG that uses a health and mana pool, abilities on a queue/cooldown basis, large PvE areas, instances, queued PvP battlegrounds, guilds, mounts, quests, all with minimised down time, it'll be called a WoW clone. But these things are the basis of an MMO, in my mind. Miss any of them out and it'll seem unfinished.
What would people have liked TOR to be to make it different to WoW?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> One thing that makes it a WoW clone is that it still uses the same combat system that Everquest used twelve years ago. Okay technically that makes it an Everquest clone, but a clone of a clone is still just a clone. This is the real dealbreaker for me. It's bland and uninvolved and static and it even looks boring when you're just watching someone else do it. It was designed to cope with the limits of server hardware and network speeds at the time, but that was twelve years ago. Technology has marched on - Everquest clones have remained behind.
Another thing is the lack of a persistent, malleable world. The previous Star Wars MMO even had that. It was possible to set up your own little shop somewhere. You could be a property owner. You could run a business. You could hunt in the countryside and supply local businessowners with their materials. There were things to do aside from following the quest lines laid out for you.
This leads to the other big issue: The content-centered nature of these games. The game lays out a path for you to follow. You follow that path to the end. Congratulations, you win! Except you don't. The game just shrugs at you and goes "sorry, nothing left to do for you." You can start over if you like. Follow a slightly different but mostly identical path. But in the end you're stuck waiting around for the developers to add stuff. Lengthen the path a bit, make a new end to which you can follow it. But you can't step off the path, wander into the wilderness. Build a treehouse somewhere out there. Spend two ###### weeks swinging from vines instead of walking some path. You're stuck taking the carefully laid out route, the managed experience. Don't forget to have a look at the gift shop on your way out.
But I feel like I'm rehashing an argument we had months ago. I feel like that because it's the truth. We DID have this entire argument months ago, in this very thread. It's on <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112978&st=0" target="_blank">page 1</a> and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112978&st=20" target="_blank">page 2.</a> I really don't know what else to say.
you know lolfighter you make all these complaints that mmos arn't going far enough away from the current mmo creations, but you havn't made one good suggestion that hasn't been done before that could be "innovative" that works and people would enjoy playing that makes sense, without this your whole point is moot, when a game trys to be innovative 90% of the time it fails, because the innovations "wernt enough like x mmo" when rift started and it added innovative things people complained that it wasn't enough like WoW, they they needed to add things from WoW, you people are all alike.
While I generally agree that WoW-style MMO's are getting a little played out, it's strange how much flak MMORPG's get for not diversifying compared to other genres. This may be a slight hyperbole, but the only major FPS innovation in the last 20 years has been a change from health pickups to regenerating health behind cover, but no one seems to mind nearly as much. RTS games have changed even less.
My best guess is that people get more worked up over MMO's because they're generally intended to be played for longer than most other games. You buy the latest single-player game and expect to enjoy it for like 10 to 100 hours, but people expect an MMO to be fun for hundreds or thousands of hours, and that's a lot to ask of any game, especially a content-driven one. I don't think hotbar buttons, talent trees, quests, raids, guilds, etc. are to blame for that. If the content-driven nature of most MMO's is to blame, then I have yet to see a viable alternative. I don't think player-driven MMO's like EVE and Planetside could ever reach the mass appeal of a content-driven game because most people don't have the patience to make their own fun - they want the fun presented to them in a really easy to access format, like obvious quest chains and progression. Being able to go out and mine asteroids or chop wood to build yourself a shop or a house may strike some people as more immersive, but it will probably strike more people as being even more tedious and grindy than endless quests to kill boars.
And yet, say, Minecraft is a huge hit, but there's nothing to do at all. No quests, no dungeons, nothing.
A sandbox MMO doesn't mean you have to create your own fun every step of the way. There's still room for quests etc. in those. There's room for a path, but with the option to step off it and into the wilderness. And once some people have done that, once it is possible to walk into the jungle and fine someone else's treehouse out there, it becomes that much easier for everyone else to find something fun to do off the beaten path. Today's treehouse is next month's entire player-founded, player-run village.
Maybe the reason MMOs get so much flak for not diversifying is because there are a lot of people who are dissatisfied with the basic model. I certainly know I am. Something as simple as a combat model that feels more involved would do wonders.
And no, Richardrahl. I don't have to design an MMO in order to earn the privilege to call other MMOs ######.
<!--quoteo(post=1863192:date=Jul 24 2011, 10:38 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jul 24 2011, 10:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And yet, say, Minecraft is a huge hit, but there's nothing to do at all. No quests, no dungeons, nothing.
A sandbox MMO doesn't mean you have to create your own fun every step of the way. There's still room for quests etc. in those. There's room for a path, but with the option to step off it and into the wilderness. And once some people have done that, once it is possible to walk into the jungle and fine someone else's treehouse out there, it becomes that much easier for everyone else to find something fun to do off the beaten path. Today's treehouse is next month's entire player-founded, player-run village.
Maybe the reason MMOs get so much flak for not diversifying is because there are a lot of people who are dissatisfied with the basic model. I certainly know I am. Something as simple as a combat model that feels more involved would do wonders.
And no, Richardrahl. I don't have to design an MMO in order to earn the privilege to call other MMOs ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes you do, because unless you have innovative ideas and ways to implement them, that are considered fun by the player, you have no room to talk about the industry not being able to find any either, there are always small advancements in MMO genre, for example rift, included rifts which were large scale outdoor raids that just anyone could walk into and group up with everyone there. ToR is also including a few new things that have not been done in MMOs before, stop talking out of your ass if you don't know what you're talking about or have nothing to back up your whining.
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->No, he doesn't. You can recognise a deficiency in something without being required to provide a solution. Now lose the 'whining' slant, this isn't the WoW forums. - Shockwave<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Minecraft got popular and went viral, sure, but if it was $60 with a $15/month subscription fee, something tells me it would have been less popular and people would have expected a lot more from it. It's not an MMO, and yet look what people do in tiny little open minecraft servers - destroy your hard work and draw swastikas everywhere. That's what happens when you give players too much freedom. UO gave players a ton of freedom, and they cluttered up all the housing areas and you could hardly leave a town without getting ganked. Let's say you had a game with an open world you could do whatever you want in, that somehow had really good griefing prevention. Then with thousands of players on a server, you'd have to walk for 45 minutes to find a single square foot of land that someone hasn't already built up or claimed or harvested.
I'm mostly playing the devil's advocate, because I'm bored with the WoW model too; I just accept that it exists for a reason - that being, it's accessible, remains fun for months or years for many/most people, and no one has come up with a "WoW killer" concept yet. People have tried injecting different types of combat into the WoW model and all have failed miserably so far, like AoC and Tabula Rasa for instance. I personally think the action bar button system makes sense for an MMO. I can't think of a sensible alternative without turning an RPG into an action game. I have nothing against action games and am hoping planetside 2 is awesome, but it will never appeal to the whole MMORPG crowd, because many people like that they don't need lightning reflexes to have fun with their online friends.
<!--quoteo(post=1863204:date=Jul 24 2011, 11:52 PM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Jul 24 2011, 11:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Minecraft got popular and went viral, sure, but if it was $60 with a $15/month subscription fee, something tells me it would have been less popular and people would have expected a lot more from it. It's not an MMO, and yet look what people do in tiny little open minecraft servers - destroy your hard work and draw swastikas everywhere. That's what happens when you give players too much freedom. UO gave players a ton of freedom, and they cluttered up all the housing areas and you could hardly leave a town without getting ganked. Let's say you had a game with an open world you could do whatever you want in, that somehow had really good griefing prevention. Then with thousands of players on a server, you'd have to walk for 45 minutes to find a single square foot of land that someone hasn't already built up or claimed or harvested.
I'm mostly playing the devil's advocate, because I'm bored with the WoW model too; I just accept that it exists for a reason - that being, it's accessible, remains fun for months or years for many/most people, and no one has come up with a "WoW killer" concept yet. People have tried injecting different types of combat into the WoW model and all have failed miserably so far, like AoC and Tabula Rasa for instance. I personally think the action bar button system makes sense for an MMO. I can't think of a sensible alternative without turning an RPG into an action game. I have nothing against action games and am hoping planetside 2 is awesome, but it will never appeal to the whole MMORPG crowd, because many people like that they don't need lightning reflexes to have fun with their online friends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1863194:date=Jul 25 2011, 03:44 AM:name=RichardRahl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RichardRahl @ Jul 25 2011, 03:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ToR is also including a few new things that have not been done in MMOs before, stop talking out of your ass if you don't know what you're talking about or have nothing to back up your whining.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Different" MMOs fall flat because the idiots who like MMOs won't play them because they're different and everyone else won't play them because they're MMOs and are "all alike".
<!--quoteo(post=1863278:date=Jul 25 2011, 06:53 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Jul 25 2011, 06:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1863278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Different" MMOs fall flat because the idiots who like MMOs won't play them because they're different and everyone else won't play them because they're MMOs and are "all alike".
Moral the story: this genre needs to die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I went straight to the last page of this thread and needn't go any further.
This quote is a blanket statement with exceptions but is still accurate enough to earn a QFT.
That said, I am an avid LOTRO player (because I love Tolkien, not so much because I love MMOs) and looking forward to Archeage. My hypocrisy goes only so far.
While MMO *should* mean the technical aspect of the game (ie: the game has a lot of players in multiplayer) the fact is that as far as Joe Blow Gamer is concerned Planetside isn't an MMO, it's just an FPS game with an unusually large amount of players per server. If you trimmed it down to 64 players what would really be MMOish about it? Worst case, you have an inferior, uglier version of Battlefield.
MMO has simply come to mean specific game mechanics that are now cookie-cutter to put into your average 'MMORPG'. To put it into perspective, World of Warcraft might be an 'MMO' but 90% of the game's content is meant to be played with 40 players are fewer... so yes, these days MMO really has nothing to do with the number of players, but they ###### features that's become mandatory to have.
The beta is on this weekend- I'm really enjoying it! It doesn't stray far from WoW: I think you need to like the Star Wars universe to enjoy it, but if you do it's a fun game.
<!--quoteo(post=1887066:date=Nov 26 2011, 09:02 PM:name=sherpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sherpa @ Nov 26 2011, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->WoW: I think you need to like the Star Wards universe<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much how I'd sum it up, World of Star Wars.
I've dabbled with TOR a bit now and I agree that its combat is more of ye olde hotbar combat which bores me to tears. It also suffers from the constant loot dropping busy-work of most other MMOs too which I've never been a huge fan of.
Those initial complaints aside, the one thing that stands out about the game is how you interact with NPCs: the Mass Effect style fully voiced conversations with selectable replies makes the whole experience a lot more enjoyable :3 That said... Unlike Mass Effect I do find myself not quite listening to the NPC as much because my eyes keep drifting to the chat box in the top left corner to see what people are chatting about :p
I don't think MMOs need to be 'innovative', but I agree with LF that, for me, MMOs need to at least change away from the hotbar game. It doesn't have to be 'twitch', I'd like to at least care what the other person/NPC is doing though and have to change my plans accordingly instead of just macroing a sequence of attacks that works in almost every situation.
In many ways I'd like to see more diversity among the races of a game too. Infact I'd go so far as to say that I'd like to see a game where each race is practically a different game in of itself, even with different goals. E.g. an aquatic race that has lots of underwater content but has to hold it's breath to go on land. Huge races like ogres that are great in combat, but can't craft or go in the caves, buildings and dungeons and whatnot that can be utilised by the smaller races and on the other end of the scale, TINY races like pixies that can squeeze through miniscule gaps and see the world as a huuuuge place but can at least fly to aid getting around easier. Hell, can you imagine playing a slime/goo race that advances by absorbing other lifeforms to copy their abilities?
It'd be nice if combat wasn't the only thing too... using the classes in most games as an example it'd be nice if priests weren't about fighting but rather spreading their religion: building shrines, giving sermons and trying to convert players and NPCs to their cause to increase their holy powers. The leader of the religion could even get their via being voted into power by the followers.
'course this is all out there stuff, but it'd be darn interesting, at least to me :3
Ick... I got too far off the TOR track. It's ok so far. I'll keep playing it to see what more it offers. I've heard tale of companions which I'm cautious of because I usually don't get on with AI help, but Neverwinter Night's companions did help flesh out the story and weren't a huge pain so maybe it'll work here too :3
<!--quoteo(post=1887091:date=Nov 26 2011, 10:36 PM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Geminosity @ Nov 26 2011, 10:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think MMOs need to be 'innovative', but I agree with LF that, for me, MMOs need to at least change away from the hotbar game. It doesn't have to be 'twitch', I'd like to at least care what the other person/NPC is doing though and have to change my plans accordingly instead of just macroing a sequence of attacks that works in almost every situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Macroing a sequence of attacks that works in almost every situation is what the hotbar game is all about. Have you ever played dps in WoW dungeons or raids? It's all about finding the optimal rotation of abilities to use, and then slavishly hammering that combination. Sometimes you have two different ones, one for fights you expect to be short and one for fights you expect to be long. Sometimes you slightly modify the rotation as your gear gets better. But in the end, if you don't use the optimal rotation, then all else being equal the one who does will have higher dps than you. It all comes down to what Eve Online is always accused of: Numbers in a spreadsheet. MMOs need to start looking at other genres for combat systems, and adapting those.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In many ways I'd like to see more diversity among the races of a game too. Infact I'd go so far as to say that I'd like to see a game where each race is practically a different game in of itself, even with different goals. E.g. an aquatic race that has lots of underwater content but has to hold it's breath to go on land. Huge races like ogres that are great in combat, but can't craft or go in the caves, buildings and dungeons and whatnot that can be utilised by the smaller races and on the other end of the scale, TINY races like pixies that can squeeze through miniscule gaps and see the world as a huuuuge place but can at least fly to aid getting around easier. Hell, can you imagine playing a slime/goo race that advances by absorbing other lifeforms to copy their abilities?
It'd be nice if combat wasn't the only thing too... using the classes in most games as an example it'd be nice if priests weren't about fighting but rather spreading their religion: building shrines, giving sermons and trying to convert players and NPCs to their cause to increase their holy powers. The leader of the religion could even get their via being voted into power by the followers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It sounds intriguing, but the more you split the playerbase, the larger the playerbase needs to be to remain viable. You're going to need to adopt a "single-shard" structure instead of the multiple shards that are a staple of the genre. Not that I see anything wrong with a single-shard structure.
The general idea is that while each of the races would essentially be a different game, they'd still all be sharing the same world and so the different and sometimes conflicting goals and gameplay would intertwine into a rich tapestry that forms the game world :D
As for TOR, I played it a lot more last night. I went and gave the smuggler class a second go because, while the first time it didn't click with me, my quick shot of the trooper (voiced by Jennifer "commander shephard" Hale :D ) left me feeling I needed more complexity. For the second shot of the smuggler I went all out to get my head around the cover mechanic and I have to say it grew on me quite quickly. It's a far cry from the polish of something like Gears of War but it at least breaks up the gameplay and essentially adds some timing mechanics for a pleasant change. I often try to time my charged volley to go off between enemy blasts so I can get it off and duck back into cover without getting hit and if the enemy has an attack with the cast bar then it actually pays to wait it out so the attack hits your cover and then come out blasting :3 The only downside to cover is that you need to have an enemy targetted BEFORE taking cover to make it properly: granted you don't have to attack and alert them, just target, but it's still one extra step I'm not sure is needed.
If you're as jaded an MMOer and you're in the TOR test I highly suggest taking up the smuggler or Imperial agent and giving the whole cover thing a try: you'll probably find the experience a lot more enjoyable that way :3
Comments
Out of grim curiosity, I looked at the pre-order site for the direct download version, and they actually CHARGE $5 EXTRA for the "PRIVILEGE" of giving them free money for a product that doesn't exist yet. Easily the most hilarious thing I've seen today. This is the first time I've seen a publisher with the balls to charge extra for a pre-order. The sane ones give you a considerable pre-order discount as a way of saying "thanks for having faith in us and investing in our game".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I pre-ordered my collectors edition the first day, why? they are only making a set amount of copies, two they are only selling a set amount of copies at launch which means if you havn't pre-ordered you won't get one for a few weeks after launch until the servers settle, which has both benefits and dis-advantages, as for the 5$ charge that isn't bio-ware enforcing that, that is the 3rd party retailer who is charging you a handling fee to keep track of everything and call you when your copy is in, I honestly don't see an issue with it.
As for TOR being a "clone" of WoW there is nothing wrong with continueing with tried and true methods, if you think about it, WoW was a clone of everquest, and everquest was a clone of ultima, and ultima was created by creating an online game made from ideas from D&D.
You can count me in.
well not on eu, I meant on N/A servers, also I feel bad about you EU players you're kinda getting the shaft with this release. sorry guys!
You're the first person I've ever heard make that claim. I have no idea how you got that impression.
it might not be ultima, but I remember a discussion long ago on another board about everquest having ideas taken from somethign else, maybe I had it wrong and everquest got it's ideas from DnD.
Eh? At no point have I said it isn't WoW with lightsabres. It IS WoW with lighsabres. That's a good thing. I bet an MMORPG that goes out of its way to not be like WoW wouldn't be very successful. The point I was making is people hating on the game for it being similar to WoW.
Shock- I'll join you!
So we both agree that it's WoW with lightsabers. Yet it surprises you that it catches flak for that? Why? You say it's a good thing that it's WoW with lightsabers. You "bet an MMORPG that goes out of its way to not be like WoW wouldn't be very successful." Is that because you'd rather just play WoW with lightsabers than try something new? Otherwise, why?
Just filling in the obvious...
<!--QuoteBegin-lolfighter+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->why don't you like the colour blue?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-sherpa+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sherpa)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i never said i don't like the colour blue? in fact i like it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-lolfighter+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but i don't like the colour blue<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm really confused about what we're discussing here!
As to your last question: the whole "should it be like WoW?" can be looked at from different perspectives. To me, WoW is a streamlined, polished MMORPG. If you create an MMORPG that uses a health and mana pool, abilities on a queue/cooldown basis, large PvE areas, instances, queued PvP battlegrounds, guilds, mounts, quests, all with minimised down time, it'll be called a WoW clone. But these things are the basis of an MMO, in my mind. Miss any of them out and it'll seem unfinished.
What would people have liked TOR to be to make it different to WoW?
As to your last question: the whole "should it be like WoW?" can be looked at from different perspectives. To me, WoW is a streamlined, polished MMORPG. If you create an MMORPG that uses a health and mana pool, abilities on a queue/cooldown basis, large PvE areas, instances, queued PvP battlegrounds, guilds, mounts, quests, all with minimised down time, it'll be called a WoW clone. But these things are the basis of an MMO, in my mind. Miss any of them out and it'll seem unfinished.
What would people have liked TOR to be to make it different to WoW?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One thing that makes it a WoW clone is that it still uses the same combat system that Everquest used twelve years ago. Okay technically that makes it an Everquest clone, but a clone of a clone is still just a clone. This is the real dealbreaker for me. It's bland and uninvolved and static and it even looks boring when you're just watching someone else do it. It was designed to cope with the limits of server hardware and network speeds at the time, but that was twelve years ago. Technology has marched on - Everquest clones have remained behind.
Another thing is the lack of a persistent, malleable world. The previous Star Wars MMO even had that. It was possible to set up your own little shop somewhere. You could be a property owner. You could run a business. You could hunt in the countryside and supply local businessowners with their materials. There were things to do aside from following the quest lines laid out for you.
This leads to the other big issue: The content-centered nature of these games. The game lays out a path for you to follow. You follow that path to the end. Congratulations, you win! Except you don't. The game just shrugs at you and goes "sorry, nothing left to do for you." You can start over if you like. Follow a slightly different but mostly identical path. But in the end you're stuck waiting around for the developers to add stuff. Lengthen the path a bit, make a new end to which you can follow it. But you can't step off the path, wander into the wilderness. Build a treehouse somewhere out there. Spend two ###### weeks swinging from vines instead of walking some path. You're stuck taking the carefully laid out route, the managed experience. Don't forget to have a look at the gift shop on your way out.
But I feel like I'm rehashing an argument we had months ago. I feel like that because it's the truth. We DID have this entire argument months ago, in this very thread. It's on <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112978&st=0" target="_blank">page 1</a> and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112978&st=20" target="_blank">page 2.</a> I really don't know what else to say.
My best guess is that people get more worked up over MMO's because they're generally intended to be played for longer than most other games. You buy the latest single-player game and expect to enjoy it for like 10 to 100 hours, but people expect an MMO to be fun for hundreds or thousands of hours, and that's a lot to ask of any game, especially a content-driven one. I don't think hotbar buttons, talent trees, quests, raids, guilds, etc. are to blame for that. If the content-driven nature of most MMO's is to blame, then I have yet to see a viable alternative. I don't think player-driven MMO's like EVE and Planetside could ever reach the mass appeal of a content-driven game because most people don't have the patience to make their own fun - they want the fun presented to them in a really easy to access format, like obvious quest chains and progression. Being able to go out and mine asteroids or chop wood to build yourself a shop or a house may strike some people as more immersive, but it will probably strike more people as being even more tedious and grindy than endless quests to kill boars.
A sandbox MMO doesn't mean you have to create your own fun every step of the way. There's still room for quests etc. in those. There's room for a path, but with the option to step off it and into the wilderness. And once some people have done that, once it is possible to walk into the jungle and fine someone else's treehouse out there, it becomes that much easier for everyone else to find something fun to do off the beaten path. Today's treehouse is next month's entire player-founded, player-run village.
Maybe the reason MMOs get so much flak for not diversifying is because there are a lot of people who are dissatisfied with the basic model. I certainly know I am. Something as simple as a combat model that feels more involved would do wonders.
And no, Richardrahl. I don't have to design an MMO in order to earn the privilege to call other MMOs ######.
A sandbox MMO doesn't mean you have to create your own fun every step of the way. There's still room for quests etc. in those. There's room for a path, but with the option to step off it and into the wilderness. And once some people have done that, once it is possible to walk into the jungle and fine someone else's treehouse out there, it becomes that much easier for everyone else to find something fun to do off the beaten path. Today's treehouse is next month's entire player-founded, player-run village.
Maybe the reason MMOs get so much flak for not diversifying is because there are a lot of people who are dissatisfied with the basic model. I certainly know I am. Something as simple as a combat model that feels more involved would do wonders.
And no, Richardrahl. I don't have to design an MMO in order to earn the privilege to call other MMOs ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes you do, because unless you have innovative ideas and ways to implement them, that are considered fun by the player, you have no room to talk about the industry not being able to find any either, there are always small advancements in MMO genre, for example rift, included rifts which were large scale outdoor raids that just anyone could walk into and group up with everyone there. ToR is also including a few new things that have not been done in MMOs before, stop talking out of your ass if you don't know what you're talking about or have nothing to back up your whining.
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->No, he doesn't. You can recognise a deficiency in something without being required to provide a solution. Now lose the 'whining' slant, this isn't the WoW forums.
- Shockwave<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I'm mostly playing the devil's advocate, because I'm bored with the WoW model too; I just accept that it exists for a reason - that being, it's accessible, remains fun for months or years for many/most people, and no one has come up with a "WoW killer" concept yet. People have tried injecting different types of combat into the WoW model and all have failed miserably so far, like AoC and Tabula Rasa for instance. I personally think the action bar button system makes sense for an MMO. I can't think of a sensible alternative without turning an RPG into an action game. I have nothing against action games and am hoping planetside 2 is awesome, but it will never appeal to the whole MMORPG crowd, because many people like that they don't need lightning reflexes to have fun with their online friends.
I'm mostly playing the devil's advocate, because I'm bored with the WoW model too; I just accept that it exists for a reason - that being, it's accessible, remains fun for months or years for many/most people, and no one has come up with a "WoW killer" concept yet. People have tried injecting different types of combat into the WoW model and all have failed miserably so far, like AoC and Tabula Rasa for instance. I personally think the action bar button system makes sense for an MMO. I can't think of a sensible alternative without turning an RPG into an action game. I have nothing against action games and am hoping planetside 2 is awesome, but it will never appeal to the whole MMORPG crowd, because many people like that they don't need lightning reflexes to have fun with their online friends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this
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What the hell is that?
Moral the story: this genre needs to die.
Moral the story: this genre needs to die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I went straight to the last page of this thread and needn't go any further.
This quote is a blanket statement with exceptions but is still accurate enough to earn a QFT.
That said, I am an avid LOTRO player (because I love Tolkien, not so much because I love MMOs) and looking forward to Archeage. My hypocrisy goes only so far.
While MMO *should* mean the technical aspect of the game (ie: the game has a lot of players in multiplayer) the fact is that as far as Joe Blow Gamer is concerned Planetside isn't an MMO, it's just an FPS game with an unusually large amount of players per server. If you trimmed it down to 64 players what would really be MMOish about it? Worst case, you have an inferior, uglier version of Battlefield.
MMO has simply come to mean specific game mechanics that are now cookie-cutter to put into your average 'MMORPG'. To put it into perspective, World of Warcraft might be an 'MMO' but 90% of the game's content is meant to be played with 40 players are fewer... so yes, these days MMO really has nothing to do with the number of players, but they ###### features that's become mandatory to have.
Pretty much how I'd sum it up, World of Star Wars.
Those initial complaints aside, the one thing that stands out about the game is how you interact with NPCs: the Mass Effect style fully voiced conversations with selectable replies makes the whole experience a lot more enjoyable :3
That said... Unlike Mass Effect I do find myself not quite listening to the NPC as much because my eyes keep drifting to the chat box in the top left corner to see what people are chatting about :p
I don't think MMOs need to be 'innovative', but I agree with LF that, for me, MMOs need to at least change away from the hotbar game. It doesn't have to be 'twitch', I'd like to at least care what the other person/NPC is doing though and have to change my plans accordingly instead of just macroing a sequence of attacks that works in almost every situation.
In many ways I'd like to see more diversity among the races of a game too. Infact I'd go so far as to say that I'd like to see a game where each race is practically a different game in of itself, even with different goals. E.g. an aquatic race that has lots of underwater content but has to hold it's breath to go on land. Huge races like ogres that are great in combat, but can't craft or go in the caves, buildings and dungeons and whatnot that can be utilised by the smaller races and on the other end of the scale, TINY races like pixies that can squeeze through miniscule gaps and see the world as a huuuuge place but can at least fly to aid getting around easier. Hell, can you imagine playing a slime/goo race that advances by absorbing other lifeforms to copy their abilities?
It'd be nice if combat wasn't the only thing too... using the classes in most games as an example it'd be nice if priests weren't about fighting but rather spreading their religion: building shrines, giving sermons and trying to convert players and NPCs to their cause to increase their holy powers. The leader of the religion could even get their via being voted into power by the followers.
'course this is all out there stuff, but it'd be darn interesting, at least to me :3
Ick... I got too far off the TOR track. It's ok so far. I'll keep playing it to see what more it offers. I've heard tale of companions which I'm cautious of because I usually don't get on with AI help, but Neverwinter Night's companions did help flesh out the story and weren't a huge pain so maybe it'll work here too :3
Macroing a sequence of attacks that works in almost every situation is what the hotbar game is all about. Have you ever played dps in WoW dungeons or raids? It's all about finding the optimal rotation of abilities to use, and then slavishly hammering that combination. Sometimes you have two different ones, one for fights you expect to be short and one for fights you expect to be long. Sometimes you slightly modify the rotation as your gear gets better. But in the end, if you don't use the optimal rotation, then all else being equal the one who does will have higher dps than you. It all comes down to what Eve Online is always accused of: Numbers in a spreadsheet.
MMOs need to start looking at other genres for combat systems, and adapting those.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In many ways I'd like to see more diversity among the races of a game too. Infact I'd go so far as to say that I'd like to see a game where each race is practically a different game in of itself, even with different goals. E.g. an aquatic race that has lots of underwater content but has to hold it's breath to go on land. Huge races like ogres that are great in combat, but can't craft or go in the caves, buildings and dungeons and whatnot that can be utilised by the smaller races and on the other end of the scale, TINY races like pixies that can squeeze through miniscule gaps and see the world as a huuuuge place but can at least fly to aid getting around easier. Hell, can you imagine playing a slime/goo race that advances by absorbing other lifeforms to copy their abilities?
It'd be nice if combat wasn't the only thing too... using the classes in most games as an example it'd be nice if priests weren't about fighting but rather spreading their religion: building shrines, giving sermons and trying to convert players and NPCs to their cause to increase their holy powers. The leader of the religion could even get their via being voted into power by the followers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It sounds intriguing, but the more you split the playerbase, the larger the playerbase needs to be to remain viable. You're going to need to adopt a "single-shard" structure instead of the multiple shards that are a staple of the genre. Not that I see anything wrong with a single-shard structure.
The general idea is that while each of the races would essentially be a different game, they'd still all be sharing the same world and so the different and sometimes conflicting goals and gameplay would intertwine into a rich tapestry that forms the game world :D
As for TOR, I played it a lot more last night. I went and gave the smuggler class a second go because, while the first time it didn't click with me, my quick shot of the trooper (voiced by Jennifer "commander shephard" Hale :D ) left me feeling I needed more complexity. For the second shot of the smuggler I went all out to get my head around the cover mechanic and I have to say it grew on me quite quickly. It's a far cry from the polish of something like Gears of War but it at least breaks up the gameplay and essentially adds some timing mechanics for a pleasant change. I often try to time my charged volley to go off between enemy blasts so I can get it off and duck back into cover without getting hit and if the enemy has an attack with the cast bar then it actually pays to wait it out so the attack hits your cover and then come out blasting :3
The only downside to cover is that you need to have an enemy targetted BEFORE taking cover to make it properly: granted you don't have to attack and alert them, just target, but it's still one extra step I'm not sure is needed.
If you're as jaded an MMOer and you're in the TOR test I highly suggest taking up the smuggler or Imperial agent and giving the whole cover thing a try: you'll probably find the experience a lot more enjoyable that way :3