Skulk balance
Wilson
Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
After playing a lot of build 179 (90 hours according to steam) I feel like at the moment the game favours marines when the players have equal skill. I'm not talking about who is winning or losing games, I'm just talking about the battles between aliens and marines and who comes out on top. I really enjoy playing skulk but it can be frustrating playing against good marine players with shotguns and flamethrowers. With that said, I don't think the marines should be nerfed. I feel like the skulks should be improved a bit to allow better play. I always think it's better if everything feels slightly overpowered rather than everything being nerfed to hell.
Here are some changes I'd like to see:
1. Increase skulks energy regeneration speed - At the moment it takes far too long for the skulk to recharge his energy. Obviously there needs to be a limit for how many times you can leap but at the moment I feel like it is too low and it slows down combat a lot. I'd also like to see energy restore even faster when skulks are sitting still. This encourages the skulks to hide behind cover to restore their energy faster before jumping out again (it also means they are more vulnerable so there's a trade off).
2. Improve parasite use - At the moment parasite is quite difficult to aim at moving marines. It's also frustrating to have to change weapons in order to leap away. You should be able to leap while in parasite mode. Also, the crosshair while in alien vision mode is pretty hard to see. It would be nice if the crosshair changed to a light blue in alien vision to make it stand out.
3. Footstep noise! - Currently while walking on metal as a skulk it is way too loud for the player. It's very difficult to hear anything else and often I will spam jump as it is easier to hear any incoming marines while in mid air. Conversely, I think the marines footsteps are too quiet. They should be reversed. The marines should be the ones who need to stop and listen carefully for incoming skulks and the skulks should be able to hear incoming marines with relative ease.
4. Left 4 Dead glow for hive sight - I think replacing the current hive sight with a L4D style glow would be much better. It would improve aliens awareness of their surroundings and allow them to see what's going on near their team mates.
5. Make marines stand out better in alien vision - I feel like the marines should have a different coloured outline in alien vision to that of buildings. At the moment when marines are standing next to lots of buildings and especially when they are far away it can be difficult to tell them apart and everything seems to blend together. I know you want to make this vision mode a trade off, but I think that highlighting enemies should be the most important thing for alien vision. Buildings aren't really important.
6. Power nodes shouldn't give marines scouting information - At the moment it is very easy for the marines to see where the aliens are going as the power nodes provide scouting info. This definitely needs to be changed as it gives them a huge advantage. I also feel like buildings shouldn't show their attackers on the minimap. If a res tower is being attacked it should just flash red on the minimap to let the marines know something is attacking it. They shouldn't be able to see how many aliens are attacking or where they are. I think that the observatory should be the only building that shows aliens on the minimap within a certain range.
7. Stop jump spam - Posted about this before. It's really bad with flamethrowers the marines can just jump in a circle and it's very difficult for skulks to hit them. Guess I'll wait and see what it's like with slow on hit in build 180. Also, please change it so that you only stay on fire for a set amount of time, the random time is very annoying. I also think the aliens basic attacks shouldn't use energy. It's daft that if you're burning as a skulk and it drains your energy you can't even bite. I don't really see any point in bite draining energy when you can continually use it anyway.
Here are some changes I'd like to see:
1. Increase skulks energy regeneration speed - At the moment it takes far too long for the skulk to recharge his energy. Obviously there needs to be a limit for how many times you can leap but at the moment I feel like it is too low and it slows down combat a lot. I'd also like to see energy restore even faster when skulks are sitting still. This encourages the skulks to hide behind cover to restore their energy faster before jumping out again (it also means they are more vulnerable so there's a trade off).
2. Improve parasite use - At the moment parasite is quite difficult to aim at moving marines. It's also frustrating to have to change weapons in order to leap away. You should be able to leap while in parasite mode. Also, the crosshair while in alien vision mode is pretty hard to see. It would be nice if the crosshair changed to a light blue in alien vision to make it stand out.
3. Footstep noise! - Currently while walking on metal as a skulk it is way too loud for the player. It's very difficult to hear anything else and often I will spam jump as it is easier to hear any incoming marines while in mid air. Conversely, I think the marines footsteps are too quiet. They should be reversed. The marines should be the ones who need to stop and listen carefully for incoming skulks and the skulks should be able to hear incoming marines with relative ease.
4. Left 4 Dead glow for hive sight - I think replacing the current hive sight with a L4D style glow would be much better. It would improve aliens awareness of their surroundings and allow them to see what's going on near their team mates.
5. Make marines stand out better in alien vision - I feel like the marines should have a different coloured outline in alien vision to that of buildings. At the moment when marines are standing next to lots of buildings and especially when they are far away it can be difficult to tell them apart and everything seems to blend together. I know you want to make this vision mode a trade off, but I think that highlighting enemies should be the most important thing for alien vision. Buildings aren't really important.
6. Power nodes shouldn't give marines scouting information - At the moment it is very easy for the marines to see where the aliens are going as the power nodes provide scouting info. This definitely needs to be changed as it gives them a huge advantage. I also feel like buildings shouldn't show their attackers on the minimap. If a res tower is being attacked it should just flash red on the minimap to let the marines know something is attacking it. They shouldn't be able to see how many aliens are attacking or where they are. I think that the observatory should be the only building that shows aliens on the minimap within a certain range.
7. Stop jump spam - Posted about this before. It's really bad with flamethrowers the marines can just jump in a circle and it's very difficult for skulks to hit them. Guess I'll wait and see what it's like with slow on hit in build 180. Also, please change it so that you only stay on fire for a set amount of time, the random time is very annoying. I also think the aliens basic attacks shouldn't use energy. It's daft that if you're burning as a skulk and it drains your energy you can't even bite. I don't really see any point in bite draining energy when you can continually use it anyway.
Comments
Good players do not use flamethrowers frankly because they do not deal enough damage to actually do anything else that eat adrenaline. Samething with gl it just does not work.
3. Footstep noise! I agree they are very low but you can hear them so goddamn far away, unless you have your favorite ambient rumbling on the background.
2. Parasite. The weapon change speed is pathetic at the moment it needs to be seriously quickened.
I also noticed that when parasiting on long corridors you actually get hit a lot maybe do skulk size, slow strafe speed or perhaps controls are sluggy. In NS1 this rarely happens.
6. I agree, however I would remove building sight completely perhaps only visible to comm.
7. You either end up with spammy like "skill" or absolute helplessness where marines (or aliens) are unable to move from advantagious position unless you implement skillful, variable and unpredictable movement system. B) Let me guess you leap twice bite few times wonder what went wrong? Answer is simple you leap'd once too much.
I agree somewhat. I think the shotgun is definitely the dominant weapon at the moment and there isn't really any good enough reason to use any of the others.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->7. You either end up with spammy like "skill" or absolute helplessness where marines (or aliens) are unable to move from advantagious position unless you implement skillful, variable and unpredictable movement system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I think it'd be much better if the marines had to react and hit leaping skulks in mid air rather than jumping around to avoid being hit. I guess you could slow the skulk bite speed down to make it so that they can only hit once before needing to jump away (to create a sort of back and forth, giving the marine a few chances to hit the skulk). I'm not sure though, but I really think that the current dodging is bad frustrating gameplay.
In NS1 this was achieved by making marine able to jump twice, twice because it could deviate from it course making an actual dodge instead of prolonging the inevitable. This would not work in NS2 though because theres no momentum, the 2 jumps would just be small steps in flight. NS1 required somewhat unintutiative mouse movement not to make this too easy, making it impossible to aim while doing it. It did however give and option to reposition yourself and shoot from there.
This gave moving as a marines very interesting aspect, as it was risky since it was certain death if skulk ambushed you correctly but if you managed to do it, it gave you minimal boost in traveling speed. Sprint is hardly as interesting, double jump as I call it was also great way to use ledges and obsticles to your favor making use of the enviroment important aspect for positioning.
I would love to see change in marine play, make it more skillful NS1 method however would probably be too hard and if the mouse movement would be removed it might be too powerful. Only thing I see possibly viable option at the moment could be faster strafe and 1 slightly longer jump with air control.
Skulk = lvl1 tech
Shotgun/flamethrower = lvl2 tech
Marines with shotguns and flamethrowers should dominate skulks. If marines were dominating skulks with the assault rifle, then it would be a problem.
Shotgun/flamethrower = lvl2 tech
Marines with shotguns and flamethrowers should dominate skulks. If marines were dominating skulks with the assault rifle, then it would be a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the other hand, level 1 tech should not be completely useless against late game tech. Rifle vs Fade is just as one sided as Skulk vs Shotgun ATM.
I sort of wish they would take a note from aliens versus predator (the new one) and really tighten up the wall walking and transition from floor to wall and vice versa. I also wish they would invert the camera on the ceiling, its probably just me, being raised on AVP classic, but it throws me off when I constantly feel like I'm walking off the ceiling or sticking laterally to the wall by my sides.
Maybe once they add slow on bite ambushes will be more successful because the first bite will be more decisive, the combat still feels kind of artificial to me without any sort of impact between the marines and the aliens. I feel like I'm "Firing my short ranged bite gun" rather than "chewing your legs off."
In any case, I'd like to see more mobile zippy skulks with tighter movement so we can hit and run more effectively, or perform ceiling drops and the like without accidently sticking onto walls. In the mean time I'll try to remember to hold crouch when I want to ambush and hope they soften the clack of my claws.
4. Left 4 Dead glow for hive sight - I think replacing the current hive sight with a L4D style glow would be much better. It would improve aliens awareness of their surroundings and allow them to see what's going on near their team mates.
5. Make marines stand out better in alien vision - I feel like the marines should have a different coloured outline in alien vision to that of buildings. At the moment when marines are standing next to lots of buildings and especially when they are far away it can be difficult to tell them apart and everything seems to blend together. I know you want to make this vision mode a trade off, but I think that highlighting enemies should be the most important thing for alien vision. Buildings aren't really important.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is actually a design issue - should aliens ALWAYS use their special vision, or should they only use it sometimes? If the intent is that the aliens should use it rarely, pretty much only in low-light conditions, then it needs to have disadvantages compared to the normal vision. After all, all that hard work by the artists in creating great textures, particles systems etc should be seen.
So I would actually argue that (IF switching is the goal), then alien vision needs to suck MORE. I'd like alien vision to remove friendly and enemy blips from the screen, actually. So you would have to choose between having great tactical vision (alien sight) OR strategic awareness.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->6. Power nodes shouldn't give marines scouting information - At the moment it is very easy for the marines to see where the aliens are going as the power nodes provide scouting info. This definitely needs to be changed as it gives them a huge advantage. I also feel like buildings shouldn't show their attackers on the minimap. If a res tower is being attacked it should just flash red on the minimap to let the marines know something is attacking it. They shouldn't be able to see how many aliens are attacking or where they are. I think that the observatory should be the only building that shows aliens on the minimap within a certain range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is actually being fixed (like, ... yesterday). It was noted that some old code made everything inside 8 m from all players and structures visible on the commander view and minimap, so that was dropped to 1.5m. And powerpoints will no longer scout for marines.
Wasen't it possible in NS1 to bounce off wall when you hold the jump button?
That way you can leap to a wall, bounce right back off it, leap to the opposite wall, bounce back. You would be alot harder to track this way. Just don't make skulks rubber balls ;)
Yeah, its not like the developers will continue tweaking balance as the game is being made! That stuff is strictly post-release right! You shouldn't mention any problems you find because <b>that's obviously not what betas are for, not for finding problems, no sir!</b>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When all game mechanics have been implimented and all weapons and tech are in, then and ONLY THEN, post threads as to what you think the balance should be. Till then, please stop clogging the forum with your sputum and stupidity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Balance issues are going to have to be addressed as they pop up not after everything is done and its too late to nip problems in the bud. The devs could look at this and say "Oh well that's not what we want," or they could say "Well we're changing the way that works in the future." Its stupid to jump down someones throat because they bring up something they think is an issue so it can be addressed (or not, if it doesn't need to be,) before it becomes an endemic problem. That is the entire damn point of testing.
If you have a suggestion, take it to the proper forum. There are different forums for a reason.
<!--quoteo(post=1858304:date=Jul 6 2011, 12:07 AM:name=todd1Ok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (todd1Ok @ Jul 6 2011, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-snip-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you and I have very different opinions about what a constructive format is, namely I don't believe it includes calling someones ideas stupid sputum, calling things they say junk without actually saying why, and then posting attacks on people.
Agreed. With the greater availability of "units" in NS2 (as a result of independently generated personal resources), the "unit vs unit" balance needs to be a lot gentler (better).
I've also changed the controls such that you must hold Shift to wall-walk (With run speed only reduced by 25%), which gives you a lot more precision when navigating.
It's quite fun!
The usefulness of lvl1 tech in the late game is that its free, not that its effective. A skulk can still kill a marine with a shotgun and a marine with a rifle can still kill a fade. Its just hard to do, which is how it should be.
Exactly. Further more, commanders have to keep up with weapons/armor upgrades too in order to make their lvl1 tech more useful, something many comms seem to forget.
How can you have effectiveness without usefulness? It doesn't matter that it's free if it's useless. The pistol is free. Is it useless? Definitely not. ("useless" used here not to mean "zero" usefulness, but in a relative sense, e.g. if a rifle marine loses to a fade 95% of the time, the rifle is "useless" against a fade.) Why is this important? Because of <b>time</b>; time spent playing which should be enjoyable, and time spent in the spawn-queue (especially because there is a queue) which is generally not.
I'm not saying that higher-tier/higher-cost units should have <b>no</b> advantages over other players in combat; but the <b>difference</b> needs to be gentler, and any (significant) advantages over other players in combat should be coupled with increased difficulty and/or risk.
The reason that super-units were okay in NS1 from a conceptual point of view is due to the single resource model. It was what amounted to a single, team, resource pool; any weapons or life-forms (units) were <b>team expenditures</b>, so a team cost was a team risk. Economic superiority translating to military superiority was fine with this model. The meta-game was more important.
The fact is that in NS2, with players gaining their own, independent, resources, "super-units" will be far more abundant, and that economic game doesn't play out the same (because your purchase of an onos doesn't mean that your team-mate has less of a chance of purchasing an onos). So "super-units" need to be made less "super". Certainly, economic superiority should lead to military superiority to some degree (such as increased ability to take out structures for example - essentially, to <b>win</b>), but when it comes to player vs player interaction (essentially, to <b>kill</b>), it's best if we don't have such "super" units. <i>(Or, perhaps we <b>can</b>, but you'll have to add <a href="http://www.sirlin.net/articles/fail-safes-in-competitive-game-design-a-detailed-example.html" target="_blank">fail-safes.</a>)</i>
I've also changed the controls such that you must hold Shift to wall-walk (With run speed only reduced by 25%), which gives you a lot more precision when navigating.
It's quite fun!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i want this but without the speed nerf. i've played enough AvP (all of them) in my time to be able to traverse any structures upside down at high velocity, and its a rush :)
should just include a "walk" button besides the wallwalk button and make it toggle-able?
<!--quoteo(post=1858407:date=Jul 6 2011, 11:11 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jul 6 2011, 11:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1858407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact is that in NS2, with players gaining their own, independent, resources, "super-units" will be far more abundant, and that economic game doesn't play out the same (because your purchase of an onos doesn't mean that your team-mate has less of a chance of purchasing an onos). So "super-units" need to be made less "super".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, Harimau, it doesn't have to be that way lol... man do you hate RFK..
why not just balance out the rest of the features that have been effected by RFK?
i.e.
<ul><li>making super units more expensive</li><li>requiring higher lvl tech / more hives to do so</li><li>creating a team cap of super units (this is done in alot of multiplayer games such as bioshock 2)</li><li>if player X isn't as good or contributing as i am in the game, why should he have more or even equal chance of getting a super unit than me? no one likes Nuke crates.</li></ul>
i remember sometimes having multiple game ending Onoses (?) occuring in NS1 games all the time and it worked out just fine.
I'm not saying that higher-tier/higher-cost units should have <b>no</b> advantages over other players in combat; but the <b>difference</b> needs to be gentler, and any (significant) advantages over other players in combat should be coupled with increased difficulty and/or risk.
The reason that super-units were okay in NS1 from a conceptual point of view is due to the single resource model. It was what amounted to a single, team, resource pool; any weapons or life-forms (units) were <b>team expenditures</b>, so a team cost was a team risk. Economic superiority translating to military superiority was fine with this model. The meta-game was more important.
The fact is that in NS2, with players gaining their own, independent, resources, "super-units" will be far more abundant, and that economic game doesn't play out the same (because your purchase of an onos doesn't mean that your team-mate has less of a chance of purchasing an onos). So "super-units" need to be made less "super". Certainly, economic superiority should lead to military superiority to some degree (such as increased ability to take out structures for example - essentially, to <b>win</b>), but when it comes to player vs player interaction (essentially, to <b>kill</b>), it's best if we don't have such "super" units. <i>(Or, perhaps we <b>can</b>, but you'll have to add <a href="http://www.sirlin.net/articles/fail-safes-in-competitive-game-design-a-detailed-example.html" target="_blank">fail-safes.</a>)</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer the differences to be more drastic to clearly distinguish tech levels (i.e. lvl3 >> lvl2 >> lvl1). That being said, there definitely needs to be some fail safes. In particular, either vastly increasing the cost or restricting the number at any given time would work.
ironhorse: Actually that discussion had nothing to do with RFK, but instead everything to do with personal resources. So that was a complete misunderstanding on your part.
Let me illustrate this as simply as I can. I want you to understand it. But in doing so, it's going to be thorough. I may even repeat myself sometimes, but I hope you'll forgive me.
First, let's say that resource towers, in both NS1 and NS2, produce "<b>x</b>" resources over a time period "<b>t</b>". Let's say that a fade in either game costs "<b>3x</b>" resources. Let's say that the number of players on a team in three different matches are 3, 6, and 12.
In NS1, there is only one resource: TR.
In NS2, there are two resources: TR and PR. For the purposes of this discussion, we will only consider what is relevant to "unit production": PR.
Over the time period "t", you have 1 resource tower producing "x" resources.
In NS1, the team gets "x" resources, and this is split among the alien team, say, equally. In each match, each player therefore gains "x/3", "x/6" and "x/12" resources, respectively. The total team income is "x" in all cases.
In NS2, the player gets "x" resources. In each match, each player therefore gains "x" resources. The total team income is "3x", "6x" and "12x", respectively.
A fade costs "3x" resources.
In NS1, over the time period "t", the player gets "x/3", "x/6" and "x/12" resources in each match, respectively. Therefore, the time taken for the team to get <b>up to</b> 3, 6, and 12 fades, is "9t", "18t", "36t", respectively; significantly, the time to field the first fade varies with playercount.
In NS2, over the time period "t", the player gets "x" resources in each match, respectively. Therefore, the time taken for the team to get <b>up to</b> 3, 6 and 12 fades is "3t" regardless; significantly, the time to field the first fade is constant, irrespective of playercount.
Obviously, the fade is more abundant in NS2. With a more abundant fade, i.e. a more abundant super-unit, can we really afford to even have super-units? A super-unit being a unit that is, independently of player skill, worth more in combat than other units. A fade, for example, might be equal to two shotgun marines. However, the number of fades is the same as the number of shotgun marines - the alien team effectively has double the number of units; regardless of whether the marine team works together, the alien team is still at an advantage militarily. Just so you don't think I'm biased against fades specifically, let's do the same for a shotgun marine vs skulk example. A shotgun marine might be equal to two skulks. However, the number of skulks is the same as the number of shotgun marines - the marine team effectively has double the number of units. This concept is further explored below.
The fade is more abundant in NS2 - but the problem is also that it is <u>no less abundant with increasing numbers of players</u>.
As I said earlier, in NS1, resources are split (if you're on the alien side, that split is automatic; if you're on the marine side, that split is manual and deliberate) The team gains "x" resources over a time period "t", and the fade costs "3x". What this means is that a team in NS1 can only play a finite number of fades per game - super-units, being worth more than other units, are therefore acceptable.
What does this effectively mean? This is effectively a <b>limit</b> directly tied to map control. Your team can only field, on average, 1 fade every "3t" respectively.
In NS2 however, you can field, on average, 1 fade every "t", "t/2", or "t/4", respectively. What this means is that a team in NS2 can play an indeterminate number of fades per game.
The important thing in NS1 then, is not individual strength, but <b>team</b> strength. Team strength is gained through map control (economy), and team strength is manifested through the presence of, for example, fades, which are a precious, team expenditure. In an RTS, strong economy allows you to build strong units, and you are limited by your economy. The same is true of NS1. If both teams have the same number of resources, then the team with the cheaper, weaker units will be able to build more of these cheaper, weaker units than the team with the stronger, pricier units will be able to build more of these stronger, pricier units. The net worth on both sides in this situation may be the same (though there are economies of scale in most RTSs since they represent strategic decisions). That's the theory, and that's how it works in NS1.
This is not true in NS2, because with NS2's resource model, an allocation of resources to you is independent of an allocation of resources to anyone else on your team. NS2 must necessarily be more about individual strength rather than team strength - and therefore balanced around the individual rather than the team. In an RTS structured like NS2 is currently, you would produce the same number of stronger units as your opponent would produce their weaker units; your net worth is greater than theirs. Your expenditures are really your own expenditures, and not team expenditures. Certainly, your loss of a unit or weapon is a loss by the team, but your failure or success is not tied so directly to economy and map control - that's why no one cares as much that you waste a fade in NS2, even though they cared so much when you wasted a fade in NS1. The net worth on both sides in this situation will not be the same, because the ability to field a super-unit is indeterminate. So as a result, we can't use NS1's original method of balancing around economy and map control.
If we consider the concept of tiers for NS, the fade is god tier compared to the rifle marine's trash tier, when ideally the margin of power should be lower: the rifle marine and skulk should be bottom tier and the fade and shotgun marine should be high or middle tier.
tl;dr: Super units should never be worth much more than regular units in NS2 even though they worked in NS1, because of the decoupling of unit availability from economy. Super units without counter fail-safes limit the viable options, and therefore depth.
should just include a "walk" button besides the wallwalk button and make it toggle-able?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We'd have 3 movement-modifying buttons then: Shift, Ctrl, and whatever else was used for wall-walking.
Besides, the wall-walking code is pretty different from AvPs: keeping attached to a wall at max speed is pretty difficult.
You see, I also toned down the Skulks acceleration so that keeping speed requires an unobstructed path (similar to flying as a Lerk). This was done to increase the Skulks dependence on Leap to instantly change direction in combat, but as a consequence, you move slower than a Marine when you're wall-walking, since you collide into the geometry every half of a second.
Reducing the wall-walking friction alleviated some of it, but reducing it any more made wall-walking impossible, as then almost nothing would slow the Ice-skating Skulk. So I increased the Skulks Walking max speed to a level that I felt was reasonable for not just wall-walking but also floor-walking, since walking still has the benefit of being silent.
As a result, wall-walking can be still used to traverse walls, but in the heat of combat you're better off Leaping up them, which not only looks more believable, but also feels much cleaner since you aren't having to suffer every jut, crack, cranny, etc. of the surface you're trying to cover.
After reading both your paragraphs (epics?) again I finally got the point you were getting to ...
... and I find myself agreeing with you.
Because of high availability of tier2 units due to the economy change... the distance between them needs to be squeezed and/or overcome with a fail-safe.
We can no longer have such a huge distance between the tiers...
tier1 >> tier2 >> tier3
but they should be closer in power.
tier1 > tier2 > tier3
The recent change in the economy (RFK) exposed more brightly the distance between the shotgun and the skulk. It was always there it's just shotguns did not show as early.
To compensate both the skulk and the machinegun have to be buffed.
OR
the shotgun needs to be nerfed to close the gap a little closer.
OR
a little of both.
I do not think fail-safes will work with such a flexible asymetric model or else they will become the default upgrades/weapons entering a game...making games predictable and boring.
...
I do not think fail-safes will work with such a flexible asymetric model or else they will become the default upgrades/weapons entering a game...making games predictable and boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly right. The power gap needs to be tightened in order for choice to remain viable (and fun to be had). If there is always one best and no second-best (or tied for best) solution to a certain circumstance, you would always pick that solution (e.g. picking the most powerful unit available to you); that is not a choice, that is simply reactionary optimisation.
...
You should check out the <a href="http://www.sirlin.net/articles/fail-safes-in-competitive-game-design-a-detailed-example.html" target="_blank">Sirlin article</a> I linked earlier about fail-safes. He uses Guilty Gear XX as an example for how the developers built a foundation of many fail-safes available to (almost) every character, which allowed the game to have a huge variety of characters with really different mechanics. The key thing is that these fail-safes aren't "unit counters", but are <b>available to you almost all the time</b>, and <b><i>available to you in the split second you need them</b></i>.
If we could find a system, a set of fail-safes, that worked like that for NS2, then the power gap would be <i>allowed</i> to be somewhat larger (though still not as large as it is now). I used the example of marine sprint being one kind of fail-safe - if a lone rifle marine finds himself up against a fade, he just needs to leg it, the problem is that it's his best option (to "win" the encounter) and there is no second-best option, so it's his only viable option; this reduces depth (the variety of meaningful choices), and is not fun for either the marine (who must run instead of fight) or the fade (who must chase instead of be fought).
So the concept of fail-safes isn't simply a "unit counter" as in R-P-S. Certainly, an R-P-S mechanic can be a fail-safe as long as Rock, Paper, and Scissors are always available to the team: This is partially already in place; <b><i>there would be a time delay though</i></b>, so the first time you see a fade, you go back and pick the counter, then the first time the fade sees you, he goes back and picks a counter to your counter, and so on. However, this type of fail-safe really only makes it fun for the "team" (which makes it unquantifiable) instead of the player (who actually has to experience this).
however i still argue the fact that the individual needs <i><b>something</b></i> other than your team winning in points as an incentive. its more spread out of an idea than CTF, there isn't one flag, theres a dozen RT, and theres infestation, and theres power nodes etc etc etc.. and currently no way to tell which team is truly in the lead.
give the individual some reward for being a skilled player - since kills are arbitrarily contributing to that same disconnected team points - and i think we can agree on a proper game balance at that point. right? proper economy and scalability mixed with skill based reward system. (maybe small upgrades tied to this i.e. frenzy?)
make shotguns 20 personal res (will never happen)
add bullet drop to marine weapons (lerk spikes have it, marine bullets dont? will never happen)
give lerk gas the range attack back (wont happen)
glad the game will be easily modable though.
make shotguns 20 personal res (will never happen)
add bullet drop to marine weapons (lerk spikes have it, marine bullets dont? will never happen)
give lerk gas the range attack back (wont happen)
glad the game will be easily modable though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why so skeptic?
they are looking at marine movement issues right now.
the shotgun was made cheaper to give the marines a chance vs the current fade, could very well be reverted.
a lmg would not see any bullet drop at the ranges we are fighting at in ns2, would just be silly. the lerk will change into lerk 2.0 so it will at least be different.
the gas will probably not be the way it was though, we might see a small increase in range, but we will also get the trailing gas.