NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
You forgot about the Star Wars tabletop RPG.
Man, that was fun, and balanced too. There were soldier classes, jedi classes, noble classes, scoundrel classes and etc. It pretty much filled the entire range of roles you could find in a star wars movie. Wanted to play Luke? Okay, there's a build you could make for that. Han solo? Scoundrel, done. R2-D2? Yeah actually you could play the robot too.
Jedi were a little OP sometimes in the game, but it really depended on what you were dealing with. If you had to fight a sith or something then yeah, your scoundrel and your noble and your soldier are gonna get force-raped but the jedi is like "Aw yeah dawg, this is my show." but then when you're flying to a new system and have to evade imperial checkpoints, scoundrel time baby, or if you land in a new system and need to bribe some officials and do some fancy-talk, noble-time. Soldier was perfect for dealing with most non-jedi enemies too.
On top of all that, the various classes were all inter-changable and mixable so you could be a soldier-jedi-noble-scoundrel hybrid. And they all had a nice mix of combat and non-combat skills. Even a noble was good in combat since they had effects that could demoralize enemy troops or force them to surrender when they otherwise wouldn't, and the jedi had some neat out-of-combat abilities like mind-trick and so on.
Seriously it was probably the best RPG <i>system</i> I've ever played with. It was balanced and fun and remarkably lore-accurate. The only problem with it was, if you built your character to specialize in one thing only then whenever you weren't doing that thing you were kind of useless. (A noble with no combat-help skills couldn't do <i>anything</i> in combat really except throw medpacks to people)
Why they didn't look to that for inspiration I have no idea. Man, now I want to play the tabletop again.
Star Wars Galaxies had people getting teleported into space which is infinitely awesome.
Also, I'm with lolf on this - the 'failing' here is Bioware's total lack of imagination in terms of gameplay, which isn't saying much: looking at Dragon Age, Mass Effect, KOTOR, the core gameplay has basically never changed at all and its' one of the reasons I think Bioware is an incredibly overrated developer, they have absolutely no imagination or maybe even the ability to do much more than to redress and old game with new models, textures, sounds, write a new story, and call it good. For ######'s sake, since 2003, every game of theirs has had dead bodies fade away and leave a little pile of stuff behind called "Remains", that's how copy-pasta Bioware is.
Nothing except the success of WoW says that MMO's can <i>only</i> exist with a set box of gameplay 'rules', and all you can do to make a new one is rename some abilities and make it all look different. Pray tell, why <i>must</i> an MMO, by virtue of being an MMO, involve what is tantamount to little more than algebraic formulas with legs running into each other, whereupon you mash buttons and hurl equations at each other until someone's number reaches zero first? The comedy comes to a head when you consider what 'dodging' means in real games, and what it means in MMOs - in real games, you can dash between cover, literally dodging bullets. You can take cover behind walls, or conceal yourself behind thin cover at the risk of bullets passing through. Or maybe you dash in close to render an opponents missile lock useless, and then use jumpjets to evade a heavy autocannon round...
The closest parallel you can draw to that would be, perhaps, ye olde days of role playing games, but even those can reflect far more imagination then you see in your typical MMO. Shadowrun was one of my favorites and while you still have the sort of 'I shoot that guy' without the video-game necessity of having to actually move your gun over them and shoot (and your own accuracy being the deciding factor of whether or not it hits), combat was far, far more involved. Was the guy moving? Is he behind cover? How strong is that cover? What are you aiming at? How accurate is your gun? Is he dodging? How injured are you? Does your Ares Predator III with custom sandlewood grips loaded with APDS rounds have a Smartlink II induction jack?
But ultimately, these are all designs of pen-and-paper games which, because they're all basically imaginary, well, you can't really aim the gun yourself (that'd be called LARPing I guess). Design like that in video games I find perfectly acceptable in games that are designed for it, but those designs work best when they're something along the lines of Baldur's Gate or Planescale Torment, where it's mostly a single-player affair and you manage multiple people, not just your own. And I think that this has become the standard of "RPG" games because most people are idiots, and idiots have extremely retarded ideas of what makes an RPG game an RPG. Deus Ex was one of the finest RPGs ever made and it didn't have any gimmicky 'lock onto target', 'spam buttons', 'jump around him like a moron' behavior...
So that such hamfisted approaches to what "must" be done to make something an RPG, or worse, an MMO are considered a standard is why, well, I don't remember.
So um.
MMOs suck ass because they're formulaic bores. Bioware sucks ass because they're overrated low-talent developers that just happen to have a good writing staff. SW:TOR sucks ass because of both of the above.
By the way, lolf, you're kinda-wrong. Lightsabers in JK2 weren't instantly lethal, but they could be. Depending on your fighting style. The 'strong' style was extremely lethal, whereas the quick one had more of a 'death of a thousand cuts' design behind it. IIRC there were only two moves that could instantly kill people, the backwards thrust and the overhead lunge, which kinda ruined multiplayer since people just ran around with macros that spammed those moves. but that's beside the point.
Also, I think damage was actually dealt in JK2 by the actual lightsaber, so if you did a move and it only barely clipped the enemy, they wouldn't get hurt much, whereas if you stood next to them and clipped your lightsaber into them, they would actually take damage from it...
It takes some balls in the current MMO market to stray away from the standard ability/cooldown/stats (i.e. WoW and friends) model with the absolute money sink setting up and running a MMO is. Deviating away from the 'standard' is gonna draw a lot of sharply drawn in breathes between teeth from any investor/publisher involved (IMO).
One could paradoxically also argue that anything that is 'Wow with a twist' isn't gonna do well precisely because it isn't different for people to bother switching. YMMV.
Bioware's name alone sells games and makes people think those games are actually good. Bioware's titles sell so many copies they can literally work on two sequels at one time. And they're owned by Electronic Arts which, past history aside, are not nearly as risk-adverse as companies like Ubisoft tend to be.
So basically, yes, there are risks in doing something 'new', but none of those should be obstacles in any way to Bioware, much less for an MMO that will literally sell itself based on the franchise alone. More than likely, EA / Bioware don't *want* to do anything new and exciting, specifically because all their ducks are lined up in a row, they basically just want to use SW:TOR as a money machine.
If anything, the fact that Bioware's never done an MMO before is a bigger risk than anything else. At the same time, <b>SOE</b>, despite their overall general incompetence, has expressed the most creativity out of any developer when it comes to niche MMO titles, not to mention has wrangled respectable success out of them... and developers like Turbine manage many MMOs, much of which failed, and are still around as well.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1838014:date=Mar 20 2011, 02:59 PM:name=Scythe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scythe @ Mar 20 2011, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remind me of how lightsabres were handled in KOTOR?
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They were treated just like swords, I think, but there were no "hits" in combat. The two people just kinda dueled with blocking and dodges until someone's health ran out.
<!--QuoteBegin-lolf+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolf)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Star Wars Galaxies tried that. It didn't work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, SWG, good times, say hello to <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/droggog/SwgScreenshots?feat=directlink#" target="_blank">Droggog</a>, Rodian PK bountyhunter working for the Empire. I lol'd when i saw i still have screenshots of a mass attack at Anchorage against rebel scums and our trip to Endor with a friend for the sole purpose of killing some teddy bears (ewoks).
I left the game when they introduced jedis. I'm obliviously from the "latter kind" :P
<!--QuoteBegin-NeonSpyder+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeonSpyder)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You forgot about the Star Wars tabletop RPG. Man, that was fun, and balanced too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hell yeah, i was a gamemaster for about 10 years for both the D6 and D20 systems and owns almost every SW RPG books. When i wasnt gamemastering, i was roleplaying an... astromech droid (like R2D2). The only sounds coming out of my mouth was beeping sounds for 6 hours straight, pissing my friends off, just so you know how hardcore i am :p
Wasnt so much into Shadowrun though, i played it a lot too but i always thought "orcs, elfs, shamans, the matrix, cybernetics... too much". I was more into the good 'ol <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_2020#Cyberpunk_2013" target="_blank">Cyberpunk 2013</a> for my megacorp-matrix-cybernetics fix.
All this talk of KotoR made me install the 2nd game- couldn't find the first one- and ouch: the game has not aged well.
No widescreen support, movies seem to be record at 400x300 or something ridiculously small, but worst of all it's capped at 60Hz. Had to give up after 15 mins as my eyes were streaming =3
I just watched the first three movies again and it also made me want to replay the kotors. Old school graphics do not put me off. My most replayed game is probably ultima underworld 2.
<!--quoteo(post=1838903:date=Mar 26 2011, 11:59 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Mar 26 2011, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just watched the first three movies again and it also made me want to replay the kotors. Old school graphics do not put me off. My most replayed game is probably ultima underworld 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is the unofficial patch of KoToR2 fixed up yet?
EDIT: Team Gizka is dead (restore and tweak/enhance mod), but there's another restoration mod that appears to be healthy <a href="http://deadlystream.com/forum/files/file/13-tslrcm/" target="_blank">http://deadlystream.com/forum/files/file/13-tslrcm/</a>
Gabe from Penny Arcade posted a <a href="http://www.penny-arcade.com/2011/6/22/swtor/" target="_blank">favorable blog</a> about his experiences with the beta. These are people I trust so my interest is increasing.
<!--quoteo(post=1855923:date=Jun 23 2011, 06:32 PM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Jun 23 2011, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gabe from Penny Arcade posted a <a href="http://www.penny-arcade.com/2011/6/22/swtor/" target="_blank">favorable blog</a> about his experiences with the beta. These are people I trust so my interest is increasing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just read his post. I just can't get over how boring and straightforward combat looks. It looks like (almost) every single MMO out there:
Press 1, Press 2, Press 1, Press 3.
They're following the tried and true MMO combat system, which I'm not knocking it for, but I think I'm just tired of it.
It's cool that they're actually focusing on character development but I think the majority of the game would be spent in combat and it looks so pedestrian.
<!--quoteo(post=1855968:date=Jun 24 2011, 06:21 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jun 24 2011, 06:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They're following the tried and true MMO combat system, which I'm not knocking it for, but I think I'm just tired of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's fine, I'll knock it for it on your behalf. It's a combat system that made it big because it was somewhat lag-resistant, which allowed it to be used with MMOs in ye olden dayes where your internet speed was measured in kbps (or even BAUD) and your latency could be timed with a stopwatch. In a day and age where such technical issues should be a thing of the past, that's no excuse anymore. Planetside managed to do real FPS play. Yes, it still had some issues. It was also released in mid-2003, and by the time I played it in late 2005, it was pretty much lag-free. That was six years ago. There is NO excuse for bland and boring combat systems anymore, NONE.
'WoW-based' (more like Asheron's Call based but whatever) MMO combat also does something else important - it takes the game completely out of the hands of the players. Rather than being able to rape and plunder because you're actually <b>good</b> at the game, you have to rely completely on random numbers being thrown back and forth like some sort of incredibly overblown game of War. And because you can't actually be good at it (since you're just throwing a damage number against their health number), you're forced to get your random numbers as high as possible, and in order to do that you need levels, skills, and gear, and the only way to get those is to keep grinding, which means $$$.
Why people actually enjoy MMOs is beyond me. It's you paying for someone to inevitably ###### you over.
I totally agree that MMO's are money farms and loot treadmills, but to say WoW-style MMO's are luck-based and not skill-based is a little far fetched. You need a full 25 skilled, knowledgeable, dedicated people with good internet connections to kill some of those e-dragons. Average damage is actually very consistent and stat-dependent in WoW and not really random at all. Of course you do have to grind and rely on random drops to get those stats up.
That said, I am with the majority here in that I would much rather see a new game that successfully breaks the WoW-style mold.
Yeah, I'm not really with Temph about the whole luck-based thing either. But I agree with the general point: That kind of combat is SO ten years ago, and the MMO genre desperately needs some innovation. Sadly, most games that innovate are ###### in some other way, and so everyone falls back on the tried-and-trite combat formula that squats across the genre like a bloated toad.
Can only hope for <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhTOpXsTlUY" target="_blank">Tera</a> and <a href="http://www.guildwars2.com/en/media/videos/" target="_blank">Guild Wars 2</a> I guess. Hope they don't screw them up too much.
I hear from a reliable 5-year WoW player source that this is very, very similar to WoW in its set of features, classes, etc.. Even the shortcuts are close to identical.
Suits me, if I'm gonna give up my MMORPG virginity to a game it may as well be a Star Wars game. Either it'll be awesome and I'll be happy losing my life to it for many months, or it'll be sucky and extricating myself won't be like weaning myself off crack.
<!--quoteo(post=1856829:date=Jun 28 2011, 12:44 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Jun 28 2011, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I totally agree that MMO's are money farms and loot treadmills, but to say WoW-style MMO's are luck-based and not skill-based is a little far fetched. You need a full 25 skilled, knowledgeable, dedicated people with good internet connections to kill some of those e-dragons. Average damage is actually very consistent and stat-dependent in WoW and not really random at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HtvIYRrgZ04"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HtvIYRrgZ04" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
<!--quoteo(post=1862554:date=Jul 22 2011, 09:31 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jul 22 2011, 09:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thread hasn't been revived now that preorders are available? Well, it has now.
Also, if you happen to be outside North America or select european countries, sucks to be you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sucks to be someone actually paying money for this game, you mean?
pre-orders are way too big a gamble, generally speaking, unless you're rich. Shell out $60 today just to read reviews on launch day that the game sucks ass? Not falling for it anymore.
Out of grim curiosity, I looked at the pre-order site for the direct download version, and they actually CHARGE $5 EXTRA for the "PRIVILEGE" of giving them free money for a product that doesn't exist yet. Easily the most hilarious thing I've seen today. This is the first time I've seen a publisher with the balls to charge extra for a pre-order. The sane ones give you a considerable pre-order discount as a way of saying "thanks for having faith in us and investing in our game".
<!--quoteo(post=1862588:date=Jul 23 2011, 04:42 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jul 23 2011, 04:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sucks to be someone actually paying money for this game, you mean?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What? I don't understand what you mean. I'm talking about availability. The game will only be available in NA and select european countries at launch. Has many people up in arms.
<!--quoteo(post=1862616:date=Jul 23 2011, 06:36 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Jul 23 2011, 06:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->pre-orders are way too big a gamble, generally speaking, unless you're rich. Shell out $60 today just to read reviews on launch day that the game sucks ass? Not falling for it anymore.
Out of grim curiosity, I looked at the pre-order site for the direct download version, and they actually CHARGE $5 EXTRA for the "PRIVILEGE" of giving them free money for a product that doesn't exist yet. Easily the most hilarious thing I've seen today. This is the first time I've seen a publisher with the balls to charge extra for a pre-order. The sane ones give you a considerable pre-order discount as a way of saying "thanks for having faith in us and investing in our game".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Though if we're honest about it, none of us believe that they won't sell out anyway. Limited supply people! Get 'em while stocks (of digital copies) last!
I bit the bullet and pre-ordered. First time I've spent £40 on a PC game... ever? Actually, COD:MW1 might have cost that much.
I'm really surprised at the vitriolic hate against Bioware + TOR, the rage is on par with the yearly updates leading to CoD 56: Skirmish in Slovenia. The haters seem to be in 2 camps:
1. "Dragon Age 2 sucked" (what about every other fantastic game Bioware has made?) 2. "It's WoW with lightsabres" (that's like saying Battlefied 3 is Counter-Strike with more players- being in the same genre means it'll share core gameplay elements!)
Anyway, TOR should be fun for me: I can only play a couple of hours every other day or so; the single-player nature means I won't have to worry about falling behind the people I play with. That and good Star Wars games are good.
The only negative thing I can think is setting it during the old republic. Bioware talk about it giving them a chance to do their own thing in the Star Wars universe but they seem to copy what's in the movies: Republic vs Imperial seems to be a copy of the factions in the old trilogy. One of the intro videos I saw is based around a Seperatist movement creating a trade blockade, which seems to be a copy of that terrible movie I won't name. The Imperial troopers wear modified Stormtrooper armour, the starfighters are modified TIEs, the cruiser-class ships are replicas from the movies. I probably shouldn't talk about realism in a fictional universe that has people lifting things with their mind, but it's hard to believe technology is the same 1000s of years ago from when the movies were set.
<!--quoteo(post=1862742:date=Jul 23 2011, 05:11 PM:name=sherpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sherpa @ Jul 23 2011, 05:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. "It's WoW with lightsabres" (that's like saying Battlefied 3 is Counter-Strike with more players- being in the same genre means it'll share core gameplay elements!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's exactly the problem. The misconception that every MMO has to be "like WoW but X." The only core gameplay element it absolutely HAS to share is "lots of players at the same time," and some self-proclaimed MMOs don't even have that. Not that I'd agree they're MMOs, that's just what they call themselves.
It iterates instead of innovating. That's the problem. It's WoW with lightsabers. You can agree or disagree whether that's a problem, but save us both the time and frustration and don't try to convince me that it's not a fact, because I don't think you can.
<!--quoteo(post=1862748:date=Jul 23 2011, 11:33 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jul 23 2011, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's WoW with lightsabers. You can agree or disagree whether that's a problem, but save us both the time and frustration and don't try to convince me that it's not a fact, because I don't think you can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Truth.
I played WoW for probably around a year and TOR looks identical in every way. Even more interesting, WoW and TOR don't share the same basic weapons or theme (like your example with CS being compared to BF3, Sherpa) yet it still appears to be a clone. A quick glance on youtube and you can clearly see how CS and BF3 are different (class based system, different game modes, and vehicles are probably the biggest gameplay changers). Even though CS and BF3 visually look the same (people and guns!) they clearly play differently.
Like I said, I can't knock TOR for this. Every game company in the world probably wants a successful MMO as it's a constant stream of cash so it's natural to see so many clones of the most popular MMO. If you missed out on the WoW phase or couldn't get into WoW due to the setting or theme then TOR will probably be up your alley.
Comments
Man, that was fun, and balanced too. There were soldier classes, jedi classes, noble classes, scoundrel classes and etc. It pretty much filled the entire range of roles you could find in a star wars movie. Wanted to play Luke? Okay, there's a build you could make for that. Han solo? Scoundrel, done. R2-D2? Yeah actually you could play the robot too.
Jedi were a little OP sometimes in the game, but it really depended on what you were dealing with. If you had to fight a sith or something then yeah, your scoundrel and your noble and your soldier are gonna get force-raped but the jedi is like "Aw yeah dawg, this is my show." but then when you're flying to a new system and have to evade imperial checkpoints, scoundrel time baby, or if you land in a new system and need to bribe some officials and do some fancy-talk, noble-time. Soldier was perfect for dealing with most non-jedi enemies too.
On top of all that, the various classes were all inter-changable and mixable so you could be a soldier-jedi-noble-scoundrel hybrid. And they all had a nice mix of combat and non-combat skills. Even a noble was good in combat since they had effects that could demoralize enemy troops or force them to surrender when they otherwise wouldn't, and the jedi had some neat out-of-combat abilities like mind-trick and so on.
Seriously it was probably the best RPG <i>system</i> I've ever played with. It was balanced and fun and remarkably lore-accurate. The only problem with it was, if you built your character to specialize in one thing only then whenever you weren't doing that thing you were kind of useless. (A noble with no combat-help skills couldn't do <i>anything</i> in combat really except throw medpacks to people)
Why they didn't look to that for inspiration I have no idea. Man, now I want to play the tabletop again.
Also, I'm with lolf on this - the 'failing' here is Bioware's total lack of imagination in terms of gameplay, which isn't saying much: looking at Dragon Age, Mass Effect, KOTOR, the core gameplay has basically never changed at all and its' one of the reasons I think Bioware is an incredibly overrated developer, they have absolutely no imagination or maybe even the ability to do much more than to redress and old game with new models, textures, sounds, write a new story, and call it good. For ######'s sake, since 2003, every game of theirs has had dead bodies fade away and leave a little pile of stuff behind called "Remains", that's how copy-pasta Bioware is.
Nothing except the success of WoW says that MMO's can <i>only</i> exist with a set box of gameplay 'rules', and all you can do to make a new one is rename some abilities and make it all look different. Pray tell, why <i>must</i> an MMO, by virtue of being an MMO, involve what is tantamount to little more than algebraic formulas with legs running into each other, whereupon you mash buttons and hurl equations at each other until someone's number reaches zero first? The comedy comes to a head when you consider what 'dodging' means in real games, and what it means in MMOs - in real games, you can dash between cover, literally dodging bullets. You can take cover behind walls, or conceal yourself behind thin cover at the risk of bullets passing through. Or maybe you dash in close to render an opponents missile lock useless, and then use jumpjets to evade a heavy autocannon round...
The closest parallel you can draw to that would be, perhaps, ye olde days of role playing games, but even those can reflect far more imagination then you see in your typical MMO. Shadowrun was one of my favorites and while you still have the sort of 'I shoot that guy' without the video-game necessity of having to actually move your gun over them and shoot (and your own accuracy being the deciding factor of whether or not it hits), combat was far, far more involved. Was the guy moving? Is he behind cover? How strong is that cover? What are you aiming at? How accurate is your gun? Is he dodging? How injured are you? Does your Ares Predator III with custom sandlewood grips loaded with APDS rounds have a Smartlink II induction jack?
But ultimately, these are all designs of pen-and-paper games which, because they're all basically imaginary, well, you can't really aim the gun yourself (that'd be called LARPing I guess). Design like that in video games I find perfectly acceptable in games that are designed for it, but those designs work best when they're something along the lines of Baldur's Gate or Planescale Torment, where it's mostly a single-player affair and you manage multiple people, not just your own. And I think that this has become the standard of "RPG" games because most people are idiots, and idiots have extremely retarded ideas of what makes an RPG game an RPG. Deus Ex was one of the finest RPGs ever made and it didn't have any gimmicky 'lock onto target', 'spam buttons', 'jump around him like a moron' behavior...
So that such hamfisted approaches to what "must" be done to make something an RPG, or worse, an MMO are considered a standard is why, well, I don't remember.
So um.
MMOs suck ass because they're formulaic bores.
Bioware sucks ass because they're overrated low-talent developers that just happen to have a good writing staff.
SW:TOR sucks ass because of both of the above.
By the way, lolf, you're kinda-wrong. Lightsabers in JK2 weren't instantly lethal, but they could be. Depending on your fighting style. The 'strong' style was extremely lethal, whereas the quick one had more of a 'death of a thousand cuts' design behind it. IIRC there were only two moves that could instantly kill people, the backwards thrust and the overhead lunge, which kinda ruined multiplayer since people just ran around with macros that spammed those moves. but that's beside the point.
Also, I think damage was actually dealt in JK2 by the actual lightsaber, so if you did a move and it only barely clipped the enemy, they wouldn't get hurt much, whereas if you stood next to them and clipped your lightsaber into them, they would actually take damage from it...
--Scythe--
It takes some balls in the current MMO market to stray away from the standard ability/cooldown/stats (i.e. WoW and friends) model with the absolute money sink setting up and running a MMO is. Deviating away from the 'standard' is gonna draw a lot of sharply drawn in breathes between teeth from any investor/publisher involved (IMO).
One could paradoxically also argue that anything that is 'Wow with a twist' isn't gonna do well precisely because it isn't different for people to bother switching. YMMV.
So basically, yes, there are risks in doing something 'new', but none of those should be obstacles in any way to Bioware, much less for an MMO that will literally sell itself based on the franchise alone. More than likely, EA / Bioware don't *want* to do anything new and exciting, specifically because all their ducks are lined up in a row, they basically just want to use SW:TOR as a money machine.
If anything, the fact that Bioware's never done an MMO before is a bigger risk than anything else. At the same time, <b>SOE</b>, despite their overall general incompetence, has expressed the most creativity out of any developer when it comes to niche MMO titles, not to mention has wrangled respectable success out of them... and developers like Turbine manage many MMOs, much of which failed, and are still around as well.
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They were treated just like swords, I think, but there were no "hits" in combat. The two people just kinda dueled with blocking and dodges until someone's health ran out.
Been a while since I've played it.
Yeah, SWG, good times, say hello to <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/droggog/SwgScreenshots?feat=directlink#" target="_blank">Droggog</a>, Rodian PK bountyhunter working for the Empire. I lol'd when i saw i still have screenshots of a mass attack at Anchorage against rebel scums and our trip to Endor with a friend for the sole purpose of killing some teddy bears (ewoks).
I left the game when they introduced jedis. I'm obliviously from the "latter kind" :P
<!--QuoteBegin-NeonSpyder+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeonSpyder)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You forgot about the Star Wars tabletop RPG.
Man, that was fun, and balanced too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hell yeah, i was a gamemaster for about 10 years for both the D6 and D20 systems and owns almost every SW RPG books. When i wasnt gamemastering, i was roleplaying an... astromech droid (like R2D2). The only sounds coming out of my mouth was beeping sounds for 6 hours straight, pissing my friends off, just so you know how hardcore i am :p
Wasnt so much into Shadowrun though, i played it a lot too but i always thought "orcs, elfs, shamans, the matrix, cybernetics... too much". I was more into the good 'ol <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_2020#Cyberpunk_2013" target="_blank">Cyberpunk 2013</a> for my megacorp-matrix-cybernetics fix.
All this talk of KotoR made me install the 2nd game- couldn't find the first one- and ouch: the game has not aged well.
No widescreen support, movies seem to be record at 400x300 or something ridiculously small, but worst of all it's capped at 60Hz. Had to give up after 15 mins as my eyes were streaming =3
Is the unofficial patch of KoToR2 fixed up yet?
EDIT: Team Gizka is dead (restore and tweak/enhance mod), but there's another restoration mod that appears to be healthy
<a href="http://deadlystream.com/forum/files/file/13-tslrcm/" target="_blank">http://deadlystream.com/forum/files/file/13-tslrcm/</a>
Just read his post. I just can't get over how boring and straightforward combat looks. It looks like (almost) every single MMO out there:
Press 1, Press 2, Press 1, Press 3.
They're following the tried and true MMO combat system, which I'm not knocking it for, but I think I'm just tired of it.
It's cool that they're actually focusing on character development but I think the majority of the game would be spent in combat and it looks so pedestrian.
That's fine, I'll knock it for it on your behalf. It's a combat system that made it big because it was somewhat lag-resistant, which allowed it to be used with MMOs in ye olden dayes where your internet speed was measured in kbps (or even BAUD) and your latency could be timed with a stopwatch. In a day and age where such technical issues should be a thing of the past, that's no excuse anymore. Planetside managed to do real FPS play. Yes, it still had some issues. It was also released in mid-2003, and by the time I played it in late 2005, it was pretty much lag-free. That was six years ago. There is NO excuse for bland and boring combat systems anymore, NONE.
Guess what?
<a href="http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/06/17/planetside-next-to-be-unveiled-at-soe-fan-faire/" target="_blank">http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/06/17/pl...-soe-fan-faire/</a>
:D :D :D
Why people actually enjoy MMOs is beyond me. It's you paying for someone to inevitably ###### you over.
That said, I am with the majority here in that I would much rather see a new game that successfully breaks the WoW-style mold.
Suits me, if I'm gonna give up my MMORPG virginity to a game it may as well be a Star Wars game. Either it'll be awesome and I'll be happy losing my life to it for many months, or it'll be sucky and extricating myself won't be like weaning myself off crack.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HtvIYRrgZ04"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HtvIYRrgZ04" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Also, if you happen to be outside North America or select european countries, sucks to be you.
Also, if you happen to be outside North America or select european countries, sucks to be you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sucks to be someone actually paying money for this game, you mean?
Out of grim curiosity, I looked at the pre-order site for the direct download version, and they actually CHARGE $5 EXTRA for the "PRIVILEGE" of giving them free money for a product that doesn't exist yet. Easily the most hilarious thing I've seen today. This is the first time I've seen a publisher with the balls to charge extra for a pre-order. The sane ones give you a considerable pre-order discount as a way of saying "thanks for having faith in us and investing in our game".
What? I don't understand what you mean. I'm talking about availability. The game will only be available in NA and select european countries at launch. Has many people up in arms.
<!--quoteo(post=1862616:date=Jul 23 2011, 06:36 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Jul 23 2011, 06:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->pre-orders are way too big a gamble, generally speaking, unless you're rich. Shell out $60 today just to read reviews on launch day that the game sucks ass? Not falling for it anymore.
Out of grim curiosity, I looked at the pre-order site for the direct download version, and they actually CHARGE $5 EXTRA for the "PRIVILEGE" of giving them free money for a product that doesn't exist yet. Easily the most hilarious thing I've seen today. This is the first time I've seen a publisher with the balls to charge extra for a pre-order. The sane ones give you a considerable pre-order discount as a way of saying "thanks for having faith in us and investing in our game".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Though if we're honest about it, none of us believe that they won't sell out anyway. Limited supply people! Get 'em while stocks (of digital copies) last!
I'm really surprised at the vitriolic hate against Bioware + TOR, the rage is on par with the yearly updates leading to CoD 56: Skirmish in Slovenia. The haters seem to be in 2 camps:
1. "Dragon Age 2 sucked" (what about every other fantastic game Bioware has made?)
2. "It's WoW with lightsabres" (that's like saying Battlefied 3 is Counter-Strike with more players- being in the same genre means it'll share core gameplay elements!)
Anyway, TOR should be fun for me: I can only play a couple of hours every other day or so; the single-player nature means I won't have to worry about falling behind the people I play with. That and good Star Wars games are good.
The only negative thing I can think is setting it during the old republic. Bioware talk about it giving them a chance to do their own thing in the Star Wars universe but they seem to copy what's in the movies: Republic vs Imperial seems to be a copy of the factions in the old trilogy. One of the intro videos I saw is based around a Seperatist movement creating a trade blockade, which seems to be a copy of that terrible movie I won't name. The Imperial troopers wear modified Stormtrooper armour, the starfighters are modified TIEs, the cruiser-class ships are replicas from the movies. I probably shouldn't talk about realism in a fictional universe that has people lifting things with their mind, but it's hard to believe technology is the same 1000s of years ago from when the movies were set.
That's exactly the problem. The misconception that every MMO has to be "like WoW but X." The only core gameplay element it absolutely HAS to share is "lots of players at the same time," and some self-proclaimed MMOs don't even have that. Not that I'd agree they're MMOs, that's just what they call themselves.
It iterates instead of innovating. That's the problem. It's WoW with lightsabers. You can agree or disagree whether that's a problem, but save us both the time and frustration and don't try to convince me that it's not a fact, because I don't think you can.
Truth.
I played WoW for probably around a year and TOR looks identical in every way. Even more interesting, WoW and TOR don't share the same basic weapons or theme (like your example with CS being compared to BF3, Sherpa) yet it still appears to be a clone. A quick glance on youtube and you can clearly see how CS and BF3 are different (class based system, different game modes, and vehicles are probably the biggest gameplay changers). Even though CS and BF3 visually look the same (people and guns!) they clearly play differently.
Like I said, I can't knock TOR for this. Every game company in the world probably wants a successful MMO as it's a constant stream of cash so it's natural to see so many clones of the most popular MMO. If you missed out on the WoW phase or couldn't get into WoW due to the setting or theme then TOR will probably be up your alley.