<!--quoteo(post=1847094:date=May 18 2011, 11:31 AM:name=mokkat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mokkat @ May 18 2011, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you feel no obligation at all to buy it gameplay-wise, but rather you buy them to support the developer (also works the other way around, rich dudes can pickup skins just for the luls and support the dev by "accident" :) )<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a good point. If a few DLC skins/models get released and sold cheap ($2-5 each) I could see a huge income potential off their sales from all the people with a few extra bucks sitting in paypal. We can call it the "ah might as well" factor. No goofy hats plz.
<!--quoteo(post=1846841:date=May 17 2011, 08:43 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ May 17 2011, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846841"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT: I forgot to mention the initial injection, the 20k base, is always going to be your largest sale, a product launch. There on after you can't guarantee a level of cash you're going to bring in unless you constantly market for and against the competition. As we all for well know, the team can't physically do this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While, yes, the "product launch" is usually the largest amount of sales numbers in a short amount of time, I would hardly call the start of NS2 pre-orders a launch of the game. Considering a large chunk of those sales came before the game was even released to the public in any form. The majority of the people out there have yet to even hear about us, and if they have, are not going to buy a game until its finished. I would count myself as one of those people who does not pre-order games, and have a definite wait and see mindset. We aren't putting the game out to reviewers yet, we aren't going after massive coverage, and most of the gaming press will not even look at us until we are closer to release. The biggest boost in sales we will get is when the game is finally officially done and released, and there is all the PR hype around that.
In addition to that, there are quite a few games that, over their lifetime sold quite a bit more then they did on and around launch. There are many cases, however, where a game had so much money put into the development and marketing (these days anywhere from 30 - 40 million is a good average for the mid tier games, and much higher for the really big name ones) that even when they sell a decent amount of copies of the game over their lifetime, they are considered failures, because they didn't have a massive launch. In our case, because we are a smaller studio, and there hasn't been that same financial investment, we can get along on a much smaller amount of launch sales, and hopefully just keep a steady amount of sales through continued support of the game and word of mouth. Once the game is finished, and running smoothly, that shouldn't be a problem.
Sorry, this doesn't really address the main topic. At the moment we don't have plans to go the Free to Play route. Ns2 is not really made for that model, and the thought of turning into a company that just sits around churning out skins and hats is not enticing to any of us. However it has been discussed in the past, and we'd talked to people who would be interested in us going that way. It would not be for NS2, though, and would be much further down the road, if it ever happens.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1847107:date=May 18 2011, 11:21 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 18 2011, 11:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While, yes, the "product launch" is usually the largest amount of sales numbers in a short amount of time, I would hardly call the start of NS2 pre-orders a launch of the game. Considering a large chunk of those sales came before the game was even released to the public in any form. The majority of the people out there have yet to even hear about us, and if they have, are not going to buy a game until its finished. I would count myself as one of those people who does not pre-order games, and have a definite wait and see mindset. We aren't putting the game out to reviewers yet, we aren't going after massive coverage, and most of the gaming press will not even look at us until we are closer to release. The biggest boost in sales we will get is when the game is finally officially done and released, and there is all the PR hype around that.
In addition to that, there are quite a few games that, over their lifetime sold quite a bit more then they did on and around launch. There are many cases, however, where a game had so much money put into the development and marketing (these days anywhere from 30 - 40 million is a good average for the mid tier games, and much higher for the really big name ones) that even when they sell a decent amount of copies of the game over their lifetime, they are considered failures, because they didn't have a massive launch. In our case, because we are a smaller studio, and there hasn't been that same financial investment, we can get along on a much smaller amount of launch sales, and hopefully just keep a steady amount of sales through continued support of the game and word of mouth. Once the game is finished, and running smoothly, that shouldn't be a problem.
Sorry, this doesn't really address the main topic. At the moment we don't have plans to go the Free to Play route. Ns2 is not really made for that model, and the thought of turning into a company that just sits around churning out skins and hats is not enticing to any of us. However it has been discussed in the past, and we'd talked to people who would be interested in us going that way. It would not be for NS2, though, and would be much further down the road, if it ever happens.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. The 'success' of a release, finance-wise, is not whether it has multi-million sales, but whether it recoups the cost of development. Usually the two are correlated (i.e. there are fewer games that sold millions that weren't a success than ones who didn't), but its not necessary. I've always wondered if it would be useful to measure the success of a game release based on the first weeks revenue/cost to make in the same way that many movies measure success based on the first weekend box office sales/cost to produce.
<!--quoteo(post=1847140:date=May 18 2011, 08:23 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ May 18 2011, 08:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good point. The 'success' of a release, finance-wise, is not whether it has multi-million sales, but whether it recoups the cost of development. Usually the two are correlated (i.e. there are fewer games that sold millions that weren't a success than ones who didn't), but its not necessary. I've always wondered if it would be useful to measure the success of a game release based on the first weeks revenue/cost to make in the same way that many movies measure success based on the first weekend box office sales/cost to produce.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A success isn't recouping your development cost. Recouping development cost is a non-failure. A success is being able to profit and use that to develop your next product.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1847239:date=May 18 2011, 08:07 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ May 18 2011, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A success isn't recouping your development cost. Recouping development cost is a non-failure. A success is being able to profit and use that to develop your next product.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I were an indie studio, I'd consider that a success. In fact, can't success be defined as not failing?
I think that if your revenue is three or more times your capital, it's a success, because then you'd have at least twice as much capital (from profit) for the next project. Of course, you have to factor in the time taken, and whether that growth is sufficient to your needs. Just my uninformed opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=1847320:date=May 19 2011, 10:34 AM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ May 19 2011, 10:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe a smaller return on investment could still be considered a big success for the first major project of a start up company.
Establishing yourself as a company that can build a game from scratch and make money is worth quiet a bit to a small studio.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1847320:date=May 19 2011, 09:34 AM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ May 19 2011, 09:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe a smaller return on investment could still be considered a big success for the first major project of a start up company.
Establishing yourself as a company that can build a game from scratch and make money is worth quiet a bit to a small studio.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^honestly, this While I can't speak for UWE's specific goals, breaking out and making a name while remaining profitable sounds like a great accomplishment for an indie studio's first commercial game.
As for F2P.... no, I can't see an FPS work well this way. Something like Global Agenda at least had RPG elements, which is a little more "normal" for micro-transactions. However, an FPS where skill is supposed to make up 100% of the gameplay, not levels or items or grinding, would not fit well with bought items. Even if you only go cosmetic, I don't think it would generate nearly enough sales.
As much as I rag on NS2, it is probably the ONLY multiplayer FPS game with promise just because it doesn't have annoying poop like:
<ul><li>Lacking a dedicated server</li><li>Achievements</li><li>The Mann Co. Store</li><li>Hats</li><li>Hats with particle effects</li><li>Hats with particle effects on their particle effects</li><li>Crafting</li><li>Trading</li><li>Weapons you find on the floor</li><li>Weapons you have to pay extra for if you don't want to grind an FPS game and find them on the floor</li><li>Any MMO elements whatsoever</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=1856096:date=Jun 24 2011, 12:58 PM:name=meb3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb3 @ Jun 24 2011, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As much as I rag on NS2, it is probably the ONLY multiplayer FPS game with promise just because it doesn't have annoying poop like:
<ul><li>Lacking a dedicated server</li><li>Achievements</li><li>The Mann Co. Store</li><li>Hats</li><li>Hats with particle effects</li><li>Hats with particle effects on their particle effects</li><li>Crafting</li><li>Trading</li><li>Weapons you find on the floor</li><li>Weapons you have to pay extra for if you don't want to grind an FPS game and find them on the floor</li><li>Any MMO elements whatsoever</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I agree. What is good though?
Can't you think up anything positive? Pretend it is your job to think of an NS2 F2P method that is ground breaking and makes the core players rejoice.
In my experience, people who play games because they're "F2P" tend to be the sort of people I don't want on my team. I'd rather not have that happen to NS2. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1856108:date=Jun 24 2011, 01:23 PM:name=zastels)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zastels @ Jun 24 2011, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well I agree. What is good though?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The current business model.
<!--quoteo(post=1856108:date=Jun 24 2011, 01:23 PM:name=zastels)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zastels @ Jun 24 2011, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can't you think up anything positive? Pretend it is your job to think of an NS2 F2P method that is ground breaking and makes the core players rejoice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Asking very kindly for donations and hoping that it will be enough to pay rent with enough money left to subsist on raman noodles. It could perhaps be called the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/constellation/" target="_blank">constellation programme</a> and give an ingame icon on the scoreboard that could act as a small status symbol to provide an added incentive.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--coloro:#8B0000--><span style="color:#8B0000"><!--/coloro-->*Keeper! A new creature has entered your Dungeon. A marine, a vile creature who isn't much of a foe on his own. However if you have a bunch of them, they are quite a dastardly force to be reckoned with*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
vlncJoin Date: 2010-09-07Member: 73921Members, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2011
Some games are turning into F2P to attract more people. Some people here talk about TF2, I saw ArmA2 going F2P too with only multiplayer side without mods. The interest is limited but can attract people like "Oh it's free, I can play it without losing anything" and maybe buy it if they like.
btw, i'm not saying I would like to see NS2 turning into a F2P "limited edition"
TF2 is F2P for a profit only reason. It will make more money free to play, with free players having to start at the bottom and paying more than existing plays will have paid. Ultimately, TF2 micro-transactions based on existing customer base showed Valve that for a profit margin, that is the way to go.
Is there anything you're not bitter about, Thaldarin?
Props to Valve, IMO. I see they're trying to get the ball rolling, too. A bunch of other games (four of them, I think) entered their newly-created free-to-play section, and then suddenly Valve adds their own title to the mix. I think it achieves a few things: it removes some of the stigma from "free to play" which gives their own free-to-play section on steam more credit and possibly encourages other developers to look into "free to play" options for their games (or more specifically, Valve's free-to-play section on Steam), and of course it makes Valve money - they've well and truly paid back TF2's development already - half the ###### out of the shop is community-crafted, isn't it? - and players will join the playerbase for free (increasing the longevity of the product), see the shop with things for a couple bucks and think, ah why not? It was a clever, praiseworthy business decision. It was 'thinking out of the box' in that it wasn't wholly expected.
And it's true, the only reason this works is because TF2 is already full of micro-transactions; and the reason that TF2 suits micro-transactions is because it's not a serious shooter that requires a lot of consistency, whereas NS2 is. Micro-transactions on any large scale would not be suited for NS2, so F2P probably wouldn't suit it as a business model.
I can see Valve and other developers releasing even more games in the future with much the same strategy: the usual high price at the start, gradual declines in price, gradual migration to micro-transaction model, and finally free-to-play. A few, like EA for example, have already done similarly with their F2P range of Battlefield products, but it's different in a sense because it isn't... backwards-compatible; they're effectively standalone products.
Honestly, though, people who deride "free to play" or the micro-transaction / DLC model are just snobs.
<!--quoteo(post=1846810:date=May 17 2011, 09:37 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ May 17 2011, 09:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the free version, you can only play skulk or marine with assault rifle. You have to purchase the full version to do anything else or get access to the dev tools.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do not like this at all. The F2P players will be taking up a valuable slot on your team. They will be completely useless midgame.
There is no reason for this game to go down this path.
Comments
It's a good point. If a few DLC skins/models get released and sold cheap ($2-5 each) I could see a huge income potential off their sales from all the people with a few extra bucks sitting in paypal. We can call it the "ah might as well" factor. No goofy hats plz.
While, yes, the "product launch" is usually the largest amount of sales numbers in a short amount of time, I would hardly call the start of NS2 pre-orders a launch of the game. Considering a large chunk of those sales came before the game was even released to the public in any form. The majority of the people out there have yet to even hear about us, and if they have, are not going to buy a game until its finished. I would count myself as one of those people who does not pre-order games, and have a definite wait and see mindset. We aren't putting the game out to reviewers yet, we aren't going after massive coverage, and most of the gaming press will not even look at us until we are closer to release. The biggest boost in sales we will get is when the game is finally officially done and released, and there is all the PR hype around that.
In addition to that, there are quite a few games that, over their lifetime sold quite a bit more then they did on and around launch. There are many cases, however, where a game had so much money put into the development and marketing (these days anywhere from 30 - 40 million is a good average for the mid tier games, and much higher for the really big name ones) that even when they sell a decent amount of copies of the game over their lifetime, they are considered failures, because they didn't have a massive launch. In our case, because we are a smaller studio, and there hasn't been that same financial investment, we can get along on a much smaller amount of launch sales, and hopefully just keep a steady amount of sales through continued support of the game and word of mouth. Once the game is finished, and running smoothly, that shouldn't be a problem.
Sorry, this doesn't really address the main topic. At the moment we don't have plans to go the Free to Play route. Ns2 is not really made for that model, and the thought of turning into a company that just sits around churning out skins and hats is not enticing to any of us. However it has been discussed in the past, and we'd talked to people who would be interested in us going that way. It would not be for NS2, though, and would be much further down the road, if it ever happens.
--Cory
In addition to that, there are quite a few games that, over their lifetime sold quite a bit more then they did on and around launch. There are many cases, however, where a game had so much money put into the development and marketing (these days anywhere from 30 - 40 million is a good average for the mid tier games, and much higher for the really big name ones) that even when they sell a decent amount of copies of the game over their lifetime, they are considered failures, because they didn't have a massive launch. In our case, because we are a smaller studio, and there hasn't been that same financial investment, we can get along on a much smaller amount of launch sales, and hopefully just keep a steady amount of sales through continued support of the game and word of mouth. Once the game is finished, and running smoothly, that shouldn't be a problem.
Sorry, this doesn't really address the main topic. At the moment we don't have plans to go the Free to Play route. Ns2 is not really made for that model, and the thought of turning into a company that just sits around churning out skins and hats is not enticing to any of us. However it has been discussed in the past, and we'd talked to people who would be interested in us going that way. It would not be for NS2, though, and would be much further down the road, if it ever happens.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. The 'success' of a release, finance-wise, is not whether it has multi-million sales, but whether it recoups the cost of development. Usually the two are correlated (i.e. there are fewer games that sold millions that weren't a success than ones who didn't), but its not necessary. I've always wondered if it would be useful to measure the success of a game release based on the first weeks revenue/cost to make in the same way that many movies measure success based on the first weekend box office sales/cost to produce.
A success isn't recouping your development cost. Recouping development cost is a non-failure. A success is being able to profit and use that to develop your next product.
If I were an indie studio, I'd consider that a success. In fact, can't success be defined as not failing?
Establishing yourself as a company that can build a game from scratch and make money is worth quiet a bit to a small studio.
Establishing yourself as a company that can build a game from scratch and make money is worth quiet a bit to a small studio.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you completely.
Hey look, another f2p FPS and it's a AAA brand.
<a href="http://www.gametrailers.com/video/debut-trailer-ghost-recon/714171" target="_blank">http://www.gametrailers.com/video/debut-tr...st-recon/714171</a>
I bet many more will show themselves at E3. I guess others saw the market up for grabs too!
Establishing yourself as a company that can build a game from scratch and make money is worth quiet a bit to a small studio.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^honestly, this
While I can't speak for UWE's specific goals, breaking out and making a name while remaining profitable sounds like a great accomplishment for an indie studio's first commercial game.
As for F2P.... no, I can't see an FPS work well this way. Something like Global Agenda at least had RPG elements, which is a little more "normal" for micro-transactions. However, an FPS where skill is supposed to make up 100% of the gameplay, not levels or items or grinding, would not fit well with bought items. Even if you only go cosmetic, I don't think it would generate nearly enough sales.
Better now than before the market is more saturated than a cat.
Valve thought outside the box, coined the whole hats thing. What is NS2 coined something of it's own? What if it didn't even require a cash shop : O
<ul><li>Lacking a dedicated server</li><li>Achievements</li><li>The Mann Co. Store</li><li>Hats</li><li>Hats with particle effects</li><li>Hats with particle effects on their particle effects</li><li>Crafting</li><li>Trading</li><li>Weapons you find on the floor</li><li>Weapons you have to pay extra for if you don't want to grind an FPS game and find them on the floor</li><li>Any MMO elements whatsoever</li></ul>
<ul><li>Lacking a dedicated server</li><li>Achievements</li><li>The Mann Co. Store</li><li>Hats</li><li>Hats with particle effects</li><li>Hats with particle effects on their particle effects</li><li>Crafting</li><li>Trading</li><li>Weapons you find on the floor</li><li>Weapons you have to pay extra for if you don't want to grind an FPS game and find them on the floor</li><li>Any MMO elements whatsoever</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I agree. What is good though?
Can't you think up anything positive? Pretend it is your job to think of an NS2 F2P method that is ground breaking and makes the core players rejoice.
The current business model.
<!--quoteo(post=1856108:date=Jun 24 2011, 01:23 PM:name=zastels)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zastels @ Jun 24 2011, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can't you think up anything positive? Pretend it is your job to think of an NS2 F2P method that is ground breaking and makes the core players rejoice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Asking very kindly for donations and hoping that it will be enough to pay rent with enough money left to subsist on raman noodles. It could perhaps be called the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/constellation/" target="_blank">constellation programme</a> and give an ingame icon on the scoreboard that could act as a small status symbol to provide an added incentive.
But no, they shouldn't. For one, F2P is one big invitation to hackers in skill-based games.
btw, i'm not saying I would like to see NS2 turning into a F2P "limited edition"
Props to Valve, IMO. I see they're trying to get the ball rolling, too. A bunch of other games (four of them, I think) entered their newly-created free-to-play section, and then suddenly Valve adds their own title to the mix. I think it achieves a few things: it removes some of the stigma from "free to play" which gives their own free-to-play section on steam more credit and possibly encourages other developers to look into "free to play" options for their games (or more specifically, Valve's free-to-play section on Steam), and of course it makes Valve money - they've well and truly paid back TF2's development already - half the ###### out of the shop is community-crafted, isn't it? - and players will join the playerbase for free (increasing the longevity of the product), see the shop with things for a couple bucks and think, ah why not? It was a clever, praiseworthy business decision. It was 'thinking out of the box' in that it wasn't wholly expected.
And it's true, the only reason this works is because TF2 is already full of micro-transactions; and the reason that TF2 suits micro-transactions is because it's not a serious shooter that requires a lot of consistency, whereas NS2 is. Micro-transactions on any large scale would not be suited for NS2, so F2P probably wouldn't suit it as a business model.
I can see Valve and other developers releasing even more games in the future with much the same strategy: the usual high price at the start, gradual declines in price, gradual migration to micro-transaction model, and finally free-to-play. A few, like EA for example, have already done similarly with their F2P range of Battlefield products, but it's different in a sense because it isn't... backwards-compatible; they're effectively standalone products.
Honestly, though, people who deride "free to play" or the micro-transaction / DLC model are just snobs.
I do not like this at all. The F2P players will be taking up a valuable slot on your team.
They will be completely useless midgame.
There is no reason for this game to go down this path.