I generally take turtling to be defending but not attacking, which is always detrimental unless you use it to build an advantage which you then use to push out.
Chris: In simpler terms then: Commander uses Tres. Players use Pres. Expand for both types of res. Commander has more than enough Tres, thinks, what for? Expands anyway, now has too much Tres, what to spend it on? Sentries. More sentries. But, as you propose, he has to do so in order to win. But from his point of view, he expands 'unnecessarily'.
I don't really understand the point behind your hypothetical anecdotes, nor did I have the motivation to read them, so I won't bother commenting on them.
Perhaps the solution is to just increase Tres costs four-fold or something. If getting upgrades is too slow, then get out there and take some resource towers.
You have to be a pretty thick commander to not realise the importance of ensuring your players have decent tech and enough resources. They're the only way you can kill anything, you really think commanders would somehow forget that they have players?
Also no, the commander doesn't have too much res, it is impossible to have too much res in any game ever, you always want more res, there is no reason not to get more res when you can.
Harimau and I are saying that marines don't have a dependence on tech points like the alien team does. Thus, they have less incentive to expand into these areas. Sure, creating bases is a good idea to allow a launch point to attach alien strongholds. However, if the base is lost, the team only loses the TR that went into the structures. Consider the aliens losing a second hive -- the fade upgrade is gone (and additional crags / shades / shifts tied to that hive will be unable to be built). This is a more serious blow to the team as they lose not only the TR that went into the hive, but also the upgrade tech.
The point we're trying to make is that aliens will naturally seek expansion because they need it to advance in the game. Marines don't have this incentive; they react to prevent the aliens from expanding. This mode is fine as it worked in NS1, but NS2 has an extra tech point (NS1 has main alien hive, marine start, and two additional hive locations. NS2 has main hive, marine start, and three additional tech points).
I'm saying that in order to balance the game, a semi-major gameplay shift should occur. I suggested removing the extra tech point to make the game play more like NS1 or creating a tech dependence for the marine team that is structured off of how the alien team works in NS1 (and eventually NS2). My recommendation is that tech points should be critical to the success of both teams, and thus, marines should have a tiered technology approach. This will create more dynamic gameplay mechanics because the marines are now forced, like the aliens, to see expansion to gain access to better upgrades.
I think this thread has gone off-track with regard to turtling. I wasn't saying marines are going to camp in their base the entire match and build tens of turrets to fend off aliens. Obviously marines are going to try to go out and kill / stop the alien team. However, their failure of alien team prevention does not negatively affect their own team's ability to upgrade. Sure it may temporarily slow resource flow if extractors are destroyed, but eventually marines will have researched most (if not all) upgrades, which has resulted in many long, drawn-out games because the marines are on equal footing with the aliens despite the aliens controlling the majority of the map (with 2+ hives). Creating tech dependence for marines will penalize them for not securing and holding expansions, and thus making them more susceptible to demise.
Well no, marines do have a good reason to expand to tech points, because they're generally good base sites, they generally have a res node in them and they also allow you to control a tech point, if you are going to build a base anywhere, you are generally wise to build them on a tech point, although yes you should build mini outposts in other important areas.
If marines lose a base they lose progress, just as the aliens do. Again like I said, marines need bases for mobility, they can't just run across the entire level, their progress in the game is tied to their control of ground for mobility purposes, in order to push the aliens out, they need to control all the ground, if you destroy a marine base, they need to take it back before they can win, because otherwise they won't be able to hit your deeper hives. Aliens on the other hand have the mobility right off the bat, their progression in the game is tech based, if they lose a hive they lose tech progression, which they need to combat marine technology. They need map control to get the tools required to fight marines, if you destroy an alien hive they need to take it back before they can win, because without it they won't be able to breach your heavier defences. It's really quite ingeniously put together. Or at leas it is assuming it's intentional, it might be entirely accidental, but it is a very nice system either way.
This 'extra tech point' you keep bringing up is not an issue, like I said, you can control more tech points easier, you control far less territory in NS2 than you do in NS1, because there is far less pointless crap between tech points. In NS1 you have three hives scattered around a huge level, in NS2 you have four or five points squished into a smaller space. You're pulling this idea of it being a problem out of nowhere. In NS1 you had to control each hive point separately, because you couldn't cut off aliens from any of them, there was no real concept of a battle line because they were so spread out. In NS2 because there's a tech point every five feet, you can quite easily control at least one of them simply by controlling some of the others, you can actually cut aliens off from their tech points, rather than having to capture them directly.
The amount of misinformation in this thread is hilarious.
NS2 follows the same basic gameplay flow as NS1. Marines are attacking and trying to prevent aliens from capturing a second hive while aliens are delaying marines while trying to expand.
The further the game goes, the more the aliens assume the role of "attackers".
Honestly, if you can't currently join a 6v6 game as a marine and go 20-1 consistently and think turtling is acceptable then your opinion isn't worth much.
I feel like you either don't understand my point or refuse to consider it so we're having the same conversation multiple times. I'll only post once more about this with regard to your latest comments.
What's the advantage of marines controlling a tech point? OK, you may get a res node (not all tech points have res nodes), aliens (for the time being) cannot build there, you may get a "base site". What's the advantage of a base site? Marines can heal and spawn there, possibly making them closer to alien structures and hives. The only real gameplay advantage I see is that marines stop aliens from getting another hive. This is how it worked in NS1 as I've mentioned several times in this thread. Marines don't need a tech point base in order to win. Does it help? Yes. Is it necessary? No. I've been in multiple games where a well-timed shotgun rush has killed the alien hives.
Can aliens win without a second hive? Yes, but it's usually within the first 10-15 minutes of the game. As the game unfolds, the aliens are more dependent on getting a second hive as marines have been upgrading without limit (save for TR).
My main issue now is regarding balance. Marines win about 30% of the time, so obviously something is amiss. I blame it on the extra tech point as marines have the majority of their tech implemented into the game, and there are no tech dependencies so they are able to research upgrades when the res becomes available. I'll concede that tech points are closer together in NS2 than NS1, so it takes less time to move between them. However, you still need the manpower to defend those areas. If you're playing an 8v8 game, you only have 7 marines to defend 3 areas against alien expansion. You're on the wrong side of a numbers game. Aliens will focus the majority of their strength on one hive for their expansion with marines spread out around the map until they locate the building site of the second hive.
If you eliminate the third tech point, you'll see the marine win percentage creep up to 50%. Any argument saying that marines usually have bad commanders and poor team players is unfounded. Alien teams are just as likely to have bad commanders and players. Over the course of the build, the marine vs. alien win percentage will dictate the imbalance issues with the build, so I don't want to see people complaining that it's skill-based discrepancy ("Marines don't know how to shoot").
Just for fun, I'd like someone to re-create Summit with only two tech points and turn crossroads into a double resource node (as someone else suggested, I forget who) to see how matches play.
I don't think anyone is saying that the marine team gets unusually bad players, just that the marine team suffers so much more from them. Primarily because bad players don't use teamwork, which is what makes the marine team strong enough to fight the alien team at all.
I didn't know that command chairs were tied to tech upgrades in NS2 at one point. My computer wasn't capable of running the alpha and beta early on so I wasn't following the game as closely. My bad.
Either way, I still prefer the NS1 model at this point in time. There must have been a reason they changed it back to the original model, and maybe the same reason is why it hasn't been changed back?
I didn't read every one of these thorough posts, but I did see some good points. Ultimately, Aliens MUST expand to Tech Points, while Marine's are encouraged to fortify their position and sit there. I can think of a solution that may solve more problem than one (think Harimau or another may have suggested this months ago):
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Give each Res Nozzle a limited amount of (Team <strike>and Personal</strike>) resources.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Don't allow either team the possibility of maxing Tech without draining a major portion of the resources on the map (50%?). Res Nodes in Tech Point Rooms could have a larger resource cache, to provide more incentive for Marines to capture it and/or deny it to the enemy team.
This forces Marines and Aliens alike to expand throughout the game. However, while Aliens becomes stronger by spreading their growth, Marines are weakest when spread thin. Since Marine mobility is limited, they will find it more difficult to hold multiple res-towers than the Kharaa. So how do we reconcile this glaring imbalance?
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Don't require Marines to spread themselves thin to collect the same amount of resources that the Kharaa do when spreading themselves out.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The fastest way for the Kharaa to gain resources should be to keep as many nodes capped throughout the game as possible. This can be done as simply as changing Infestation to a P.Res ability. More Harvesters = more P.Res = more Infestation = more Harvesters. More should always be better for the Kharaa.
The best way for Marines should be to move to one node, hold it and drain it as fast as possible (sped up by the ability), and then proceed to the next one. With Res Nodes existing in all manner of high-risk areas, it makes sense that the TSA would have designed Extractors with speed and mobility in mind. Make them weaker so that they will fall quickly if left to fend for themselves. Slow down the standard Extractor production rate, but give them a P.Res ability that temporarily increases their production rate. Making this a P.Res ability provides a choice between Support (ground units) or Economy (speeding up res flow).
Perhaps you addressed it and I missed it, KuBaN, but wouldn't a relatively long game hinder your idea problematic? If you put a limit on the resources available around the map, then you've proposed only two possible outcomes - one team must win quickly or the two teams will fight in a stalemate for hours because they have no resources to spend.
But even if you put a high ceiling on the resources in a map, then you'd have been better off just leaving the resources nodes alone, correct? The only solution would be to make extractors pull up a lot of res at one time and then have the node go dormant for a period time. Then when the node is ex-tractable again, the extractor does its thing. But given you suggest the extractors be given less health you've essentially made it impossible to receive a steady stream of resources.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems like your idea would result in resource-less teams and the inevitably of not having a steady resource stream, which is a necessity in my opinion.
KuBan's idea is interesting. I like that the concept forces marines to expand (or rather, gives them incentive). However, I'm not sold on the idea that marines should drain resources faster than aliens, utilizing a one node at a time approach. Marines still need to get out and control parts of the map to deny the Kharaa. I just want them to get some benefit from securing those tech points (instead of the reward being that you've prevented the aliens from expanding). Causing them to turtle around a node doesn't sound like appealing gameplay to me.
Talking again to KuBan's res idea, the home nodes for each team would have a small reserve of available res, with each node farther from the starting location offering a larger reserve. Both teams will feel the stress of expansion to continue upgrading their tech. Once the nodes run out of res, either production should halt entirely or generation of res should be significantly slower.
A controversial idea would be to allow for a stalemate scenario to address Enhance89's concern about what happens when neither team is able to destroy the other and nodes completely run out of resources (thus you can't build anything else). A fun idea is that this would create a map "meltdown" or ticking clock where the teams have X amount of time to defeat the other (say 5 or 10 minutes). The lighting in the entire map would be affected, and an audible countdown would occur (or a visual display on the monitors of the station). If neither team is able to defeat the other, the station/map melts down due to the res being completely drained, which results in the death of all players and the match ending as a stalemate. This would create a sense of panic and desperation towards the end of the game, reinforced by visual and audio cues. Also, it stops the match from continuing any further and puts a hard time limit for each round so they don't drag out for hours.
Or the "meltdown" could consist of the Marines deciding to nuke the site from orbit, as it's the only way to be sure.
Honestly not sure if that'd be a net Marine loss or a net Alien loss. Probably could argue it either way.
Might want to put something like that up for a server vote at 30, 40, 50, 60 minutes... "vote to initiate a core overload/nuke from orbit/whatever," and give it a 5-10 minute timer, primarily intended to get the lead out of the ass of a winning-but-not-finishing-it team, but allowing those occasional close and hard-fought long games where everyone is still having fun to go on until the bitter end.
<!--quoteo(post=1855823:date=Jun 23 2011, 06:55 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 23 2011, 06:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't read every one of these thorough posts, but I did see some good points. Ultimately, Aliens MUST expand to Tech Points, while Marine's are encouraged to fortify their position and sit there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you expect to win by doing that?
Seriously, how is it in any way a good idea for marines to just sit in their base? Tell me, I'd love to know.
<!--quoteo(post=1855420:date=Jun 22 2011, 12:58 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jun 22 2011, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't matter if you can tech up from one base as long as you can't afford to buy weapons. Map presence is tied to economy. Once alien siege breaking abilities (onos, bombard(?), bilebomb) are in-game and balanced a wee bit then a marine team camping in spawn should fold easily (or the game would be broken). Marines getting stuck on 1-base if hive2 goes up shouldn't be an issue once <i>their</i> tech and its relative timings and power are implemented.
The time to complain is when the end-game tech is implemented and marines can still do what is essentially "one basing" effectively, but there is no reason to call for further homogenisation between the two sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited June 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1855771:date=Jun 23 2011, 08:08 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jun 23 2011, 08:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think anyone is saying that the marine team gets unusually bad players, just that the marine team suffers so much more from them. Primarily because bad players don't use teamwork, which is what makes the marine team strong enough to fight the alien team at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is probably the biggest symptom of the underlying imbalance. With a bad alien comm, you can still effectively fight and even win. With a bad marine comm, you might as well rr because its just a matter of time before you lose.
Wrt the value of expansion, both sides have very valuable reasons to expand even if technology was not tied to expansion. Thats how many RTS's work, where you can either choose to aggressively expand or tech, but not generally both at the same time (at least with the hope of winning). That being said, I think tech should be tied to expansions, not because it makes expansion marginally more valuable, but because it gives the opposing team a chance to make a comeback. Currently, if aliens have two hives and fades, you can turn the tide by killing one. The aliens really have no way to stop marine gl and ft once they have them researched.
I agree with you ScardyBob, and I think you'll see less games where marines are stuck in their base clinging to life while aliens control the entire map if marine tech is tied to comm chair expansion. Onos will definitely help solve part of this, but I think more changes should be implemented. Marines are never penalized for base turtling at the end of games. Thus, aliens must really coordinate their attacks to bring down marine bases. You don't see the converse scenario because aliens only have access to skulks, lerks, and gorges, so they aren't nearly as effective at keeping marines out of their final hive. If they could still have fades, I think you'd see a lot more end games similar to the marine demise experience that currently plagues gameplay. I've had to switch teams to jump in the comm chair to recycle marine structures several times just to start a new game because it drags on for 30-40+ minutes.
<!--quoteo(post=1855863:date=Jun 23 2011, 03:38 PM:name=Enhance89)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Enhance89 @ Jun 23 2011, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps you addressed it and I missed it, KuBaN, but wouldn't a relatively long game hinder your idea problematic? If you put a limit on the resources available around the map, then you've proposed only two possible outcomes - one team must win quickly or the two teams will fight in a stalemate for hours because they have no resources to spend.
But even if you put a high ceiling on the resources in a map, then you'd have been better off just leaving the resources nodes alone, correct? The only solution would be to make extractors pull up a lot of res at one time and then have the node go dormant for a period time. Then when the node is ex-tractable again, the extractor does its thing. But given you suggest the extractors be given less health you've essentially made it impossible to receive a steady stream of resources.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems like your idea would result in resource-less teams and the inevitably of not having a steady resource stream, which is a necessity in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Edited. I believe I left Personal Res in there by mistake. I can see this being a problem with P.Res, but every game gets to a point where there's no more tech to unlock with T.Res and you're left with an abundance of T.Res.
<!--quoteo(post=1855947:date=Jun 23 2011, 08:08 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 23 2011, 08:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855947"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do you expect to win by doing that?
Seriously, how is it in any way a good idea for marines to just sit in their base? Tell me, I'd love to know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Go back to bed and get some REM sleep, man; you misunderstood me and then jumped to a conclusion before confirming it.
It isn't in any way a good idea. I was stating the problem, not making a suggestion.
<!--quoteo(post=1855393:date=Jun 22 2011, 11:47 AM:name=endlesschange)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (endlesschange @ Jun 22 2011, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855393"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ummm if i may say i never played ns1 but i dont really care how ns1 is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea, screw the core gameplay thats been laid out and is successful.
I'm not opposed to eliminating the extra tech point (or hive location), either. This would balance the game and borrow time-tested gameplay mechanics from NS1.
I disagree that we're past the point of experimenting with the tiered research approach for marines. If you were playing the beta several months ago, you'll remember that marines needed to get two command centers to upgrade to a command facility in order to research their late-game tech. I don't think it would be that difficult to copy the existing structure for aliens and apply it to the marine side.
I understand that the difference between the sides is essential to the concept of the game. However, aliens have commanders now, which was strictly a marine capability in NS1. I also believe that the alien perspective is still unique enough from the marine that merging the tech tree concept for both sides wouldn't make the gameplay too similar. The lifeforms are well-defined, and their play is completely different from the marine side. With the additions of infestation and power nodes, there are some added differences as well. Finally, the tech tree is completely different for both sides, so even though we're limiting research at the beginning, we're promoting expansion to obtain those unique upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1856040:date=Jun 24 2011, 07:13 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 24 2011, 07:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yea, screw the core gameplay thats been laid out and is successful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is ns2 not ns1..... If you have play ns2 you would know that as of right now the aliens have good value in expanding. They get fades. The humans get nothing of value in expanding. This is a core gameplay flaw and if you dont think so your an idiot.
<!--quoteo(post=1856051:date=Jun 24 2011, 01:00 PM:name=endlesschange)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (endlesschange @ Jun 24 2011, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is ns2 not ns1..... If you have play ns2 you would know that as of right now the aliens have good value in expanding. They get fades. The humans get nothing of value in expanding. This is a core gameplay flaw and if you dont think so your an idiot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are fundamentally wrong, the marines need to expand across the map in order to hold res towers with which they feed their teching. Linking tech points to tech tree for marines like this thread suggests is not necessarily the answer and is needless homogenisation of the two sides.
I agree that being able to build CCs on tech-points is currently a gameplay red herring that needs to change.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
i would like to see weapons and life-forms be independent from number of hives / CCs and design the whole tech stuff around chambers and upgrades.
marines for example can decide to go phase tech (build obs) or robotic tech (arc and masc) or arms / proto-lab (i have no good idea here). marines are still able to use / buy all weapons independent from number off CCs, but the overall gameflow is completely different (static defense vs. mobility vs. strong upgrades). you can unlock one building / tech direction for each CC you have
aliens could have similar choices. all life-forms are avaible at hive 1, but the general flow is defined by the upgrades and chambers placed (strong regen + defense, vs mobility vs dunno, something else). you can unlock a chamber/ tech direction one per hive you have
the problem of such system is, that it aims for a rock, scissor, paper balancing. that in general is a good thing (proven balanced!) but would limit variety of games to some degree (though high enough variations) and is not extendable for future game additions. also it could punish a team really hard for chosing the wrong tech.
at least i would like to see at hive 1 all life-forms, which get significant improved by the number of hives (like it was in ns1, it was nice to have onos at 1 hive, but he was not very strong :D ). it was a nice system and brought more fun, variety to alien game play
You are correct in saying that marines must seek out additional res nodes in order to have enough res flow to support the construction / research of additional structures / upgrades. However, not all res nodes are at tech points. Take summit for instance, the marines would be able to hold flight control and ventilation, which would provide decent res flow for tech upgrades. They have no reason to go out to the other tech points except to 1) prevent alien hives and 2) get more res. Three res nodes is solid production, so there isn't a huge emphasis to get more.
Also, aliens must seek res just like marines to get into their tech tree and to create more hives, so your argument that "marines need to expand across the map in order to hold res towers with which they feed their teching" is completely true of the alien team as well. However, the main difference is that aliens MUST expand to get more hives since their lifeforms (and eventually additional research chambers) are tied to hive expansion. Thus, the alien team innately grabs tech points since it is critical to their success. Marines could just stick with flight control and ventilation nodes waiting for their res to build up before rushing to the hives.
I've played several marine games recently where we all spread out and look for where the second hive is being built. Once we locate it, we rush with shotguns to kill it, and now the aliens are at a huge disadvantage. They usually only have one res node, and they wasted 50 TR to build a hive, and this scenario will likely result in a marine victory. Marines don't care about securing tech point locations. They only care that alien hives aren't there. If marine tech was tied to tech point expansion, I don't think you'd see as many games where all marines are rushing the second hive at the beginning because marines would also be concerned about expansion since it is now critical to their success.
Linking tech points to the tech tree for marines, as you've mentioned, isn't necessarily the answer, and I agree, but I like the gameplay style that it forces between the two teams. Also, marines would be rewarded for holding tech point locations (access to more upgrades) -- right now there is no real gameplay benefit for them, which is my main problem. The gameplay should reinforce the objective and provide benefits to players once achieved.
When marines hold a tech point, their reward is "great, the aliens can't play a hive here". When aliens hold a tech point, their reward is more lifeforms and ability chambers; they aren't concerned with preventing the marine team from expanding since it doesn't matter to the marine team.
Another idea to stress the importance of tech points is perhaps the marine team gains better res flow (production rate is higher) at tech points. Or non-tech point res towers have limited resource pool available that can be depleted, whereas tech point (and alien / marine start) res nodes have unlimited.
Some of these problems may partially resolve when the res model gets more balanced (slowed down some) and marines are forced to hold more than a couple of res nodes to really tech up.
<!--quoteo(post=1856051:date=Jun 24 2011, 08:00 AM:name=endlesschange)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (endlesschange @ Jun 24 2011, 08:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is ns2 not ns1..... If you have play ns2 you would know that as of right now the aliens have good value in expanding. They get fades. The humans get nothing of value in expanding. This is a core gameplay flaw and if you dont think so your an idiot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I always thought the point of marines expanding was extra res towers and area denial to prevent hives and thus alien tech. Which is a reward in and of itself. Id rather expand and deny a hive and not see a fade than turtle and be swarmed by them. Not to mention you can drop a CC at the tech point and build IPs for forward spawning.
<!--quoteo(post=1845436:date=May 11 2011, 08:59 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 11 2011, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u><b>TL;DR:</b></u> * <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Tech nodes only provide team resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>team resources are required for structures and researches (as they are now). Rename team resources to e.g. "technology".</i> * <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Res nodes only provide personal resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>personal resources are required for life-forms, ammo/medpacks and equipment (as they are now). Personal resources already known simply as "resources", so no change.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1846171:date=May 14 2011, 01:56 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 14 2011, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had a few more thoughts about implementation, centering around costs.
If, for some reason, you wanted to encourage the aliens to expand moreso than you wanted marines to expand (to have more NS1-like hive-location-based gameplay) then you could simply manipulate the costs: Aliens: Medium-High upgrade cost, Low Hive cost Marines: High CC cost, Medium-Low upgrade cost So the aliens, with their higher upgrade costs, would be more inclined to expand for greater technology resource income, and this is facilitated by the lower hive cost. The marines on the other hand, with their high CC cost, will be less inclined to expand for greater technology resource income, but are more able to tech up with a single tech point due to the lower upgrade costs. Relocations are viable despite the higher CC cost because the marine team has "recycle".
Having the costs similar and middle-ranged will make each team's inclination to expand more similar.
Both approaches have their merits.
If you wanted teams to expand more (or rather, earlier), have lower Hive/CC costs and/or higher teching costs; if you wanted teams to expand less (or rather, later), have higher Hive/CC costs; and if you wanted teams to turtle more, have lower teching costs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I particularly liked Kuban's suggestion of capping resource nodes to a certain amount that once dry ... cannot bear fruit.
This is pretty common in many RTS games resources do not last forever. and it is a concept people can grasp pretty quickly (you can't mine for gold in the same spot forever).
I keep suggesting that the Hive/Command Chair should be a resource gathering multiplier as encouragement for both sides to spread out.
But I realized that combined (and modified) they sound more interesting.
1. Resource Nodes all have a set count which when depleted move to a sip mode (1 resource per year for amusement sake)
2. Expanding and building Hive/Command Chair increases your RATE of acquiring from all resource nodes. This is a double edged sword not only do you have more resources. You have less resources in the future, because those res nodes would expire soon.
Having a model like this would encourage expansion but also allow for a slow and steady expansion. And you would have two numbers to tweak for balance. And you would NEVER have never ending games.
But it would mean that the resource nodes would have to display what they have for resources to tap so a commander can make a call whether it is worth capping.
Comments
I don't really understand the point behind your hypothetical anecdotes, nor did I have the motivation to read them, so I won't bother commenting on them.
Perhaps the solution is to just increase Tres costs four-fold or something. If getting upgrades is too slow, then get out there and take some resource towers.
Also no, the commander doesn't have too much res, it is impossible to have too much res in any game ever, you always want more res, there is no reason not to get more res when you can.
Harimau and I are saying that marines don't have a dependence on tech points like the alien team does. Thus, they have less incentive to expand into these areas. Sure, creating bases is a good idea to allow a launch point to attach alien strongholds. However, if the base is lost, the team only loses the TR that went into the structures. Consider the aliens losing a second hive -- the fade upgrade is gone (and additional crags / shades / shifts tied to that hive will be unable to be built). This is a more serious blow to the team as they lose not only the TR that went into the hive, but also the upgrade tech.
The point we're trying to make is that aliens will naturally seek expansion because they need it to advance in the game. Marines don't have this incentive; they react to prevent the aliens from expanding. This mode is fine as it worked in NS1, but NS2 has an extra tech point (NS1 has main alien hive, marine start, and two additional hive locations. NS2 has main hive, marine start, and three additional tech points).
I'm saying that in order to balance the game, a semi-major gameplay shift should occur. I suggested removing the extra tech point to make the game play more like NS1 or creating a tech dependence for the marine team that is structured off of how the alien team works in NS1 (and eventually NS2). My recommendation is that tech points should be critical to the success of both teams, and thus, marines should have a tiered technology approach. This will create more dynamic gameplay mechanics because the marines are now forced, like the aliens, to see expansion to gain access to better upgrades.
I think this thread has gone off-track with regard to turtling. I wasn't saying marines are going to camp in their base the entire match and build tens of turrets to fend off aliens. Obviously marines are going to try to go out and kill / stop the alien team. However, their failure of alien team prevention does not negatively affect their own team's ability to upgrade. Sure it may temporarily slow resource flow if extractors are destroyed, but eventually marines will have researched most (if not all) upgrades, which has resulted in many long, drawn-out games because the marines are on equal footing with the aliens despite the aliens controlling the majority of the map (with 2+ hives). Creating tech dependence for marines will penalize them for not securing and holding expansions, and thus making them more susceptible to demise.
If marines lose a base they lose progress, just as the aliens do. Again like I said, marines need bases for mobility, they can't just run across the entire level, their progress in the game is tied to their control of ground for mobility purposes, in order to push the aliens out, they need to control all the ground, if you destroy a marine base, they need to take it back before they can win, because otherwise they won't be able to hit your deeper hives. Aliens on the other hand have the mobility right off the bat, their progression in the game is tech based, if they lose a hive they lose tech progression, which they need to combat marine technology. They need map control to get the tools required to fight marines, if you destroy an alien hive they need to take it back before they can win, because without it they won't be able to breach your heavier defences. It's really quite ingeniously put together. Or at leas it is assuming it's intentional, it might be entirely accidental, but it is a very nice system either way.
This 'extra tech point' you keep bringing up is not an issue, like I said, you can control more tech points easier, you control far less territory in NS2 than you do in NS1, because there is far less pointless crap between tech points. In NS1 you have three hives scattered around a huge level, in NS2 you have four or five points squished into a smaller space. You're pulling this idea of it being a problem out of nowhere. In NS1 you had to control each hive point separately, because you couldn't cut off aliens from any of them, there was no real concept of a battle line because they were so spread out. In NS2 because there's a tech point every five feet, you can quite easily control at least one of them simply by controlling some of the others, you can actually cut aliens off from their tech points, rather than having to capture them directly.
NS2 follows the same basic gameplay flow as NS1. Marines are attacking and trying to prevent aliens from capturing a second hive while aliens are delaying marines while trying to expand.
The further the game goes, the more the aliens assume the role of "attackers".
Honestly, if you can't currently join a 6v6 game as a marine and go 20-1 consistently and think turtling is acceptable then your opinion isn't worth much.
I feel like you either don't understand my point or refuse to consider it so we're having the same conversation multiple times. I'll only post once more about this with regard to your latest comments.
What's the advantage of marines controlling a tech point? OK, you may get a res node (not all tech points have res nodes), aliens (for the time being) cannot build there, you may get a "base site". What's the advantage of a base site? Marines can heal and spawn there, possibly making them closer to alien structures and hives. The only real gameplay advantage I see is that marines stop aliens from getting another hive. This is how it worked in NS1 as I've mentioned several times in this thread. Marines don't need a tech point base in order to win. Does it help? Yes. Is it necessary? No. I've been in multiple games where a well-timed shotgun rush has killed the alien hives.
Can aliens win without a second hive? Yes, but it's usually within the first 10-15 minutes of the game. As the game unfolds, the aliens are more dependent on getting a second hive as marines have been upgrading without limit (save for TR).
My main issue now is regarding balance. Marines win about 30% of the time, so obviously something is amiss. I blame it on the extra tech point as marines have the majority of their tech implemented into the game, and there are no tech dependencies so they are able to research upgrades when the res becomes available. I'll concede that tech points are closer together in NS2 than NS1, so it takes less time to move between them. However, you still need the manpower to defend those areas. If you're playing an 8v8 game, you only have 7 marines to defend 3 areas against alien expansion. You're on the wrong side of a numbers game. Aliens will focus the majority of their strength on one hive for their expansion with marines spread out around the map until they locate the building site of the second hive.
If you eliminate the third tech point, you'll see the marine win percentage creep up to 50%. Any argument saying that marines usually have bad commanders and poor team players is unfounded. Alien teams are just as likely to have bad commanders and players. Over the course of the build, the marine vs. alien win percentage will dictate the imbalance issues with the build, so I don't want to see people complaining that it's skill-based discrepancy ("Marines don't know how to shoot").
Just for fun, I'd like someone to re-create Summit with only two tech points and turn crossroads into a double resource node (as someone else suggested, I forget who) to see how matches play.
Either way, I still prefer the NS1 model at this point in time. There must have been a reason they changed it back to the original model, and maybe the same reason is why it hasn't been changed back?
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Give each Res Nozzle a limited amount of (Team <strike>and Personal</strike>) resources.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Don't allow either team the possibility of maxing Tech without draining a major portion of the resources on the map (50%?). Res Nodes in Tech Point Rooms could have a larger resource cache, to provide more incentive for Marines to capture it and/or deny it to the enemy team.
This forces Marines and Aliens alike to expand throughout the game. However, while Aliens becomes stronger by spreading their growth, Marines are weakest when spread thin. Since Marine mobility is limited, they will find it more difficult to hold multiple res-towers than the Kharaa. So how do we reconcile this glaring imbalance?
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Don't require Marines to spread themselves thin to collect the same amount of resources that the Kharaa do when spreading themselves out.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The fastest way for the Kharaa to gain resources should be to keep as many nodes capped throughout the game as possible. This can be done as simply as changing Infestation to a P.Res ability. More Harvesters = more P.Res = more Infestation = more Harvesters. More should always be better for the Kharaa.
The best way for Marines should be to move to one node, hold it and drain it as fast as possible (sped up by the ability), and then proceed to the next one. With Res Nodes existing in all manner of high-risk areas, it makes sense that the TSA would have designed Extractors with speed and mobility in mind. Make them weaker so that they will fall quickly if left to fend for themselves. Slow down the standard Extractor production rate, but give them a P.Res ability that temporarily increases their production rate. Making this a P.Res ability provides a choice between Support (ground units) or Economy (speeding up res flow).
But even if you put a high ceiling on the resources in a map, then you'd have been better off just leaving the resources nodes alone, correct? The only solution would be to make extractors pull up a lot of res at one time and then have the node go dormant for a period time. Then when the node is ex-tractable again, the extractor does its thing. But given you suggest the extractors be given less health you've essentially made it impossible to receive a steady stream of resources.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems like your idea would result in resource-less teams and the inevitably of not having a steady resource stream, which is a necessity in my opinion.
Talking again to KuBan's res idea, the home nodes for each team would have a small reserve of available res, with each node farther from the starting location offering a larger reserve. Both teams will feel the stress of expansion to continue upgrading their tech. Once the nodes run out of res, either production should halt entirely or generation of res should be significantly slower.
A controversial idea would be to allow for a stalemate scenario to address Enhance89's concern about what happens when neither team is able to destroy the other and nodes completely run out of resources (thus you can't build anything else). A fun idea is that this would create a map "meltdown" or ticking clock where the teams have X amount of time to defeat the other (say 5 or 10 minutes). The lighting in the entire map would be affected, and an audible countdown would occur (or a visual display on the monitors of the station). If neither team is able to defeat the other, the station/map melts down due to the res being completely drained, which results in the death of all players and the match ending as a stalemate. This would create a sense of panic and desperation towards the end of the game, reinforced by visual and audio cues. Also, it stops the match from continuing any further and puts a hard time limit for each round so they don't drag out for hours.
Fun to think about.
Honestly not sure if that'd be a net Marine loss or a net Alien loss. Probably could argue it either way.
Might want to put something like that up for a server vote at 30, 40, 50, 60 minutes... "vote to initiate a core overload/nuke from orbit/whatever," and give it a 5-10 minute timer, primarily intended to get the lead out of the ass of a winning-but-not-finishing-it team, but allowing those occasional close and hard-fought long games where everyone is still having fun to go on until the bitter end.
How do you expect to win by doing that?
Seriously, how is it in any way a good idea for marines to just sit in their base? Tell me, I'd love to know.
The time to complain is when the end-game tech is implemented and marines can still do what is essentially "one basing" effectively, but there is no reason to call for further homogenisation between the two sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this.
This is probably the biggest symptom of the underlying imbalance. With a bad alien comm, you can still effectively fight and even win. With a bad marine comm, you might as well rr because its just a matter of time before you lose.
Wrt the value of expansion, both sides have very valuable reasons to expand even if technology was not tied to expansion. Thats how many RTS's work, where you can either choose to aggressively expand or tech, but not generally both at the same time (at least with the hope of winning). That being said, I think tech should be tied to expansions, not because it makes expansion marginally more valuable, but because it gives the opposing team a chance to make a comeback. Currently, if aliens have two hives and fades, you can turn the tide by killing one. The aliens really have no way to stop marine gl and ft once they have them researched.
But even if you put a high ceiling on the resources in a map, then you'd have been better off just leaving the resources nodes alone, correct? The only solution would be to make extractors pull up a lot of res at one time and then have the node go dormant for a period time. Then when the node is ex-tractable again, the extractor does its thing. But given you suggest the extractors be given less health you've essentially made it impossible to receive a steady stream of resources.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems like your idea would result in resource-less teams and the inevitably of not having a steady resource stream, which is a necessity in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Edited. I believe I left Personal Res in there by mistake. I can see this being a problem with P.Res, but every game gets to a point where there's no more tech to unlock with T.Res and you're left with an abundance of T.Res.
<!--quoteo(post=1855947:date=Jun 23 2011, 08:08 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 23 2011, 08:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855947"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do you expect to win by doing that?
Seriously, how is it in any way a good idea for marines to just sit in their base? Tell me, I'd love to know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go back to bed and get some REM sleep, man; you misunderstood me and then jumped to a conclusion before confirming it.
It isn't in any way a good idea. I was stating the problem, not making a suggestion.
yea, screw the core gameplay thats been laid out and is successful.
I'm not opposed to eliminating the extra tech point (or hive location), either. This would balance the game and borrow time-tested gameplay mechanics from NS1.
I disagree that we're past the point of experimenting with the tiered research approach for marines. If you were playing the beta several months ago, you'll remember that marines needed to get two command centers to upgrade to a command facility in order to research their late-game tech. I don't think it would be that difficult to copy the existing structure for aliens and apply it to the marine side.
I understand that the difference between the sides is essential to the concept of the game. However, aliens have commanders now, which was strictly a marine capability in NS1. I also believe that the alien perspective is still unique enough from the marine that merging the tech tree concept for both sides wouldn't make the gameplay too similar. The lifeforms are well-defined, and their play is completely different from the marine side. With the additions of infestation and power nodes, there are some added differences as well. Finally, the tech tree is completely different for both sides, so even though we're limiting research at the beginning, we're promoting expansion to obtain those unique upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This i agree with this.
This is ns2 not ns1..... If you have play ns2 you would know that as of right now the aliens have good value in expanding. They get fades. The humans get nothing of value in expanding. This is a core gameplay flaw and if you dont think so your an idiot.
You are fundamentally wrong, the marines need to expand across the map in order to hold res towers with which they feed their teching. Linking tech points to tech tree for marines like this thread suggests is not necessarily the answer and is needless homogenisation of the two sides.
I agree that being able to build CCs on tech-points is currently a gameplay red herring that needs to change.
marines for example can decide to go phase tech (build obs) or robotic tech (arc and masc) or arms / proto-lab (i have no good idea here). marines are
still able to use / buy all weapons independent from number off CCs, but the overall gameflow is completely different (static defense vs. mobility vs. strong upgrades).
you can unlock one building / tech direction for each CC you have
aliens could have similar choices. all life-forms are avaible at hive 1, but the general flow is defined by the upgrades and chambers placed (strong regen + defense, vs mobility vs dunno, something else). you can unlock a chamber/ tech direction one per hive you have
the problem of such system is, that it aims for a rock, scissor, paper balancing. that in general is a good thing (proven balanced!) but would limit variety of games to some degree (though high enough variations) and is not extendable for future game additions. also it could punish a team really hard for chosing the wrong tech.
at least i would like to see at hive 1 all life-forms, which get significant improved by the number of hives (like it was in ns1, it was nice to have onos at 1 hive, but he was not very strong :D ). it was a nice system and brought more fun, variety to alien game play
You are correct in saying that marines must seek out additional res nodes in order to have enough res flow to support the construction / research of additional structures / upgrades. However, not all res nodes are at tech points. Take summit for instance, the marines would be able to hold flight control and ventilation, which would provide decent res flow for tech upgrades. They have no reason to go out to the other tech points except to 1) prevent alien hives and 2) get more res. Three res nodes is solid production, so there isn't a huge emphasis to get more.
Also, aliens must seek res just like marines to get into their tech tree and to create more hives, so your argument that "marines need to expand across the map in order to hold res towers with which they feed their teching" is completely true of the alien team as well. However, the main difference is that aliens MUST expand to get more hives since their lifeforms (and eventually additional research chambers) are tied to hive expansion. Thus, the alien team innately grabs tech points since it is critical to their success. Marines could just stick with flight control and ventilation nodes waiting for their res to build up before rushing to the hives.
I've played several marine games recently where we all spread out and look for where the second hive is being built. Once we locate it, we rush with shotguns to kill it, and now the aliens are at a huge disadvantage. They usually only have one res node, and they wasted 50 TR to build a hive, and this scenario will likely result in a marine victory. Marines don't care about securing tech point locations. They only care that alien hives aren't there. If marine tech was tied to tech point expansion, I don't think you'd see as many games where all marines are rushing the second hive at the beginning because marines would also be concerned about expansion since it is now critical to their success.
Linking tech points to the tech tree for marines, as you've mentioned, isn't necessarily the answer, and I agree, but I like the gameplay style that it forces between the two teams. Also, marines would be rewarded for holding tech point locations (access to more upgrades) -- right now there is no real gameplay benefit for them, which is my main problem. The gameplay should reinforce the objective and provide benefits to players once achieved.
When marines hold a tech point, their reward is "great, the aliens can't play a hive here". When aliens hold a tech point, their reward is more lifeforms and ability chambers; they aren't concerned with preventing the marine team from expanding since it doesn't matter to the marine team.
Another idea to stress the importance of tech points is perhaps the marine team gains better res flow (production rate is higher) at tech points. Or non-tech point res towers have limited resource pool available that can be depleted, whereas tech point (and alien / marine start) res nodes have unlimited.
post of the year! LOL, yes marines get nothing
Or maybe I'm just retarded. /shrug
* <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Tech nodes only provide team resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>team resources are required for structures and researches (as they are now). Rename team resources to e.g. "technology".</i>
* <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Res nodes only provide personal resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>personal resources are required for life-forms, ammo/medpacks and equipment (as they are now). Personal resources already known simply as "resources", so no change.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1846171:date=May 14 2011, 01:56 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 14 2011, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had a few more thoughts about implementation, centering around costs.
If, for some reason, you wanted to encourage the aliens to expand moreso than you wanted marines to expand (to have more NS1-like hive-location-based gameplay) then you could simply manipulate the costs:
Aliens: Medium-High upgrade cost, Low Hive cost
Marines: High CC cost, Medium-Low upgrade cost
So the aliens, with their higher upgrade costs, would be more inclined to expand for greater technology resource income, and this is facilitated by the lower hive cost.
The marines on the other hand, with their high CC cost, will be less inclined to expand for greater technology resource income, but are more able to tech up with a single tech point due to the lower upgrade costs. Relocations are viable despite the higher CC cost because the marine team has "recycle".
Having the costs similar and middle-ranged will make each team's inclination to expand more similar.
Both approaches have their merits.
If you wanted teams to expand more (or rather, earlier), have lower Hive/CC costs and/or higher teching costs; if you wanted teams to expand less (or rather, later), have higher Hive/CC costs; and if you wanted teams to turtle more, have lower teching costs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I particularly liked Kuban's suggestion of capping resource nodes to a certain amount
that once dry ... cannot bear fruit.
This is pretty common in many RTS games resources do not last forever.
and it is a concept people can grasp pretty quickly (you can't mine for gold in the same spot forever).
I keep suggesting that the Hive/Command Chair should be a resource gathering multiplier as encouragement for both sides to spread out.
But I realized that combined (and modified) they sound more interesting.
1. Resource Nodes all have a set count which when depleted move to a sip mode (1 resource per year for amusement sake)
2. Expanding and building Hive/Command Chair increases your RATE of acquiring from all resource nodes.
This is a double edged sword not only do you have more resources. You have less resources in the future, because those res nodes would expire soon.
Having a model like this would encourage expansion but also allow for a slow and steady expansion.
And you would have two numbers to tweak for balance.
And you would NEVER have never ending games.
But it would mean that the resource nodes would have to display what they have for resources to tap so a commander can make a call whether it is worth capping.