Marine vs. Alien Expansion Discussion
hf_
Join Date: 2011-06-10 Member: 103639Members
Join Date: 2011-06-10 Member: 103639Members
Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but the basic gameplay element in B179 is attack (aliens) vs. defense (marines). I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, or just the result of the game being in the beta stages.
The marines really have no reason to expand and build another command center, except maybe to avoid losing due to the destruction of the original comm chair. Thus, whenever I play marines, I feel the need to defend the map against alien infestation, but there isn't incentive to build on a tech point. My mentality is "stop the aliens". This is because the tech tree isn't dependent on expansion. You can build everything immediately as long as you have the resources.
The opposite is true for aliens. Without more hives, aliens cannot progress. Not only can they not evolve into larger life forms, but their personal upgrades (defense / movement / stealth) are tied to hives as well. I like this idea, and I think it worked well in the original game and continues to work in NS2. However, the aliens have no reason to "defend" tech points against marines, except to save the tech point for themselves. Once they have two hives, there isn't a reason to stop marines from getting other tech points -- it's become irrelevant. I realize that this will change once the onos and the other chambers are introduced since a third hive will be needed, but still, even with three hives, the aliens don't have to stop the marines from reaching the other tech point on the map.
Thus, all games (currently) play to this effect:
Marines try to stop aliens from getting second hive. They spend all their resources on upgrades to prevent expansion (phase tech, turret farms, weapon/armor upgrades). If a second hive goes up, they try to kill it. If they can't, they're stuck with high tech in their base, usually dragging out a long match because they have the firepower to fight off aliens, but cannot overcome the alien expansion. If they can prevent a second hive, they must constantly defend all other tech points while pushing for the main hive.
Aliens try to get second hive. They spend their resources to gain expansion (infestation and melee/armor upgrades). If the hive goes up, they work on destroying marine base, which is typically well-defended. If they lose the hive, they disrupt and distract the marines and hide behind their built structures, dragging out a long match as the marines are pressed to cover the entire map.
I would like the see advanced marine tech structured just like the aliens. Again, I'm not sure if this is the final plan for NS2, so if it is, ignore the whole post.
Regardless, each comm chair is "tied" to a different tech. For instance, you have the option of building an observatory, robo factory, or arms lab. This would force marines to expand and seek out another comm chair in order to upgrade their tech, and also for them to make interesting decisions in the beginning as to how they are going to upgrade. I think this also allows for interesting scenarios where both the aliens and the marines each have two tech points and they're fighting for a third to throw the balance, or destroy the second expansion to disrupt and conquer the other team.
Limiting the alien tech while the marines' is unlimited creates a screwy attack vs. defense balance. I'd like to see both teams have the opportunity to attack and defend tech points. When marines would get another comm chair, the aliens would feel forced to attack it to eliminate the advancement of marine tech, whereas currently aliens just avoid tech points that are well defended and focus on others (that are less defended) for their own expansion. Also, when aliens get their second hive, they tend to ignore the other tech points and focus entirely on the marine base since they cannot (currently) prevent the marine tech tree from expanding.
Another apology if my above idea is already the plan for the game. I haven't read every thread, and I'm not sure of the devs' intent. Again, I'm only speaking to how the game currently plays, and these comments are suggestions for future patches to create a more rounded experience for both sides. This post has stemmed from my frustration of playing marine team and feeling like I have to control and defend the entire map to defeat the aliens, whereas aliens just need to get a second hive before focusing their attack on the marine base (while ignoring other tech points).
The marines really have no reason to expand and build another command center, except maybe to avoid losing due to the destruction of the original comm chair. Thus, whenever I play marines, I feel the need to defend the map against alien infestation, but there isn't incentive to build on a tech point. My mentality is "stop the aliens". This is because the tech tree isn't dependent on expansion. You can build everything immediately as long as you have the resources.
The opposite is true for aliens. Without more hives, aliens cannot progress. Not only can they not evolve into larger life forms, but their personal upgrades (defense / movement / stealth) are tied to hives as well. I like this idea, and I think it worked well in the original game and continues to work in NS2. However, the aliens have no reason to "defend" tech points against marines, except to save the tech point for themselves. Once they have two hives, there isn't a reason to stop marines from getting other tech points -- it's become irrelevant. I realize that this will change once the onos and the other chambers are introduced since a third hive will be needed, but still, even with three hives, the aliens don't have to stop the marines from reaching the other tech point on the map.
Thus, all games (currently) play to this effect:
Marines try to stop aliens from getting second hive. They spend all their resources on upgrades to prevent expansion (phase tech, turret farms, weapon/armor upgrades). If a second hive goes up, they try to kill it. If they can't, they're stuck with high tech in their base, usually dragging out a long match because they have the firepower to fight off aliens, but cannot overcome the alien expansion. If they can prevent a second hive, they must constantly defend all other tech points while pushing for the main hive.
Aliens try to get second hive. They spend their resources to gain expansion (infestation and melee/armor upgrades). If the hive goes up, they work on destroying marine base, which is typically well-defended. If they lose the hive, they disrupt and distract the marines and hide behind their built structures, dragging out a long match as the marines are pressed to cover the entire map.
I would like the see advanced marine tech structured just like the aliens. Again, I'm not sure if this is the final plan for NS2, so if it is, ignore the whole post.
Regardless, each comm chair is "tied" to a different tech. For instance, you have the option of building an observatory, robo factory, or arms lab. This would force marines to expand and seek out another comm chair in order to upgrade their tech, and also for them to make interesting decisions in the beginning as to how they are going to upgrade. I think this also allows for interesting scenarios where both the aliens and the marines each have two tech points and they're fighting for a third to throw the balance, or destroy the second expansion to disrupt and conquer the other team.
Limiting the alien tech while the marines' is unlimited creates a screwy attack vs. defense balance. I'd like to see both teams have the opportunity to attack and defend tech points. When marines would get another comm chair, the aliens would feel forced to attack it to eliminate the advancement of marine tech, whereas currently aliens just avoid tech points that are well defended and focus on others (that are less defended) for their own expansion. Also, when aliens get their second hive, they tend to ignore the other tech points and focus entirely on the marine base since they cannot (currently) prevent the marine tech tree from expanding.
Another apology if my above idea is already the plan for the game. I haven't read every thread, and I'm not sure of the devs' intent. Again, I'm only speaking to how the game currently plays, and these comments are suggestions for future patches to create a more rounded experience for both sides. This post has stemmed from my frustration of playing marine team and feeling like I have to control and defend the entire map to defeat the aliens, whereas aliens just need to get a second hive before focusing their attack on the marine base (while ignoring other tech points).
Comments
1. To obtain more/deny the enemy resources (PRes more than TRes in B179)
2. Provide closer spawn/transport to enemy territory (more important in summit than rockdown)
3. Spread out the enemy attack (less effective against organized teams)
That being said, I like the hard tradeoffs of tying specific upgrades/structures to tech points controlled (which is why I disagreed when they disconnected weapon/upgrade research from tech nodes). Right now the only distinction between matches is time, where the longer the match the closer you get to full research and upgrades on each side. Research paths/upgrade clusters/tech node capture strategy should have nearly mutually-exclusive paths so that game ending are actually varied.
Thus, mimicking this gameplay mechanic for marines seems like a good idea to me, and I think it would help the aliens in defeating the marines instead of the long, drawn-out matches that other posters have been mentioning. The only downside I see is that TR could build up for the marine team in the late game if they are held to only one tech point (i.e. marine start), but the same is true of the aliens when they are losing and have only one hive (I've joined alien games where TR is over 100 as the marines push to crush the last hive). I think this issue must be addressed because it promotes base turtling -- aliens could spend all of their TR to build tons of whips and crags to defend against marine attacks. Likewise, marines just spend all their TR on turrets.
I believe in NS1 there was a limit to the number of offensive chambers you could build in a certain area. When you would try to drop one, you'd get a notice that said "There are too many of these structures nearby" or something to that effect, which would prohibit you from building. I think this will need to be implemented for both marines and aliens. Or another idea would be that you could build the structures, but they would be unpowered or not fully "grown" because there are too many similar structures nearby, rendering them useless unless other structures were destroyed. This could be supported by the notion that you can only power so many structures (like in real life) before you blow a fuse, and that infestation is only strong enough to support so many lifeforms / crags / whips / whatever.
I find it stupid that the humans can sit back and get the highest tech from one base. If u have to make the guns stronger to allow them to expand and keep it balanced to the speed the aliens have then do so.
Also if i may add the game feels to slow for me.
I would love and i do mean love for then to increase everyones base speed by about 15 %. This would make it much more of a reflex game and speed up the gameplay. It would make it fun fast and scary. Really keep you on your toes.
Maybe someone could make a mod were everyone moves 15 % faster and see how it effects the gameplay. But in theory if everyone gets it. Its same balance wise just faster.
this has always frustrated me.
From a RTS standpoint turtling is inviting death.
I like the idea of forcing them to expand.
Make some of their tech dependant on that expansion.
If I as a commander own the map ...
I should only have to squeeze my fist to crush the opposing team.
I find it stupid that the humans can sit back and get the highest tech from one base. If u have to make the guns stronger to allow them to expand and keep it balanced to the speed the aliens have then do so.
Also if i may add the game feels to slow for me.
I would love and i do mean love for then to increase everyones base speed by about 15 %. This would make it much more of a reflex game and speed up the gameplay. It would make it fun fast and scary. Really keep you on your toes.
Maybe someone could make a mod were everyone moves 15 % faster and see how it effects the gameplay. But in theory if everyone gets it. Its same balance wise just faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can say whatever you want - I'm not going to stop you.
My point is that Natural Selection is an old game, a game that is now being updated. Changes have been made to gameplay in one way or another but <b>the entire foundation of the game has always been the same.</b> They're not going to change it now. It has always been like I said - marines start in one place, aliens must get hives in order to succeed. That's how it was and that's how it will continue to be. The game is too far along at this point to change something like what you're suggesting.
Furthermore this game has a very devoted following. I don't mean to sound brash but the fact that you've logged 300 hours in the beta doesn't mean a lot in comparison to the guys who logged hundreds of hours playing the original, pre-ordered NS2 and have been here since the alpha. The devs have to keep in mind the die-hards (like myself) just as much as they have to keep the new people that they're trying to attract to the game (like they've done for you).
I'm not saying your idea is a bad one, I'm just saying it's not Natural Selection and won't be.
this has always frustrated me.
From a RTS standpoint turtling is inviting death.
I like the idea of forcing them to expand.
Make some of their tech dependant on that expansion.
If I as a commander own the map ...
I should only have to squeeze my fist to crush the opposing team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I made a thread in the ideas forum that kinda talks about making the tech dependent on expansions.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113914" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=113914</a>
The basic ideas i said where make the robotics factory something that can only be build on a tech point. So if u want macs, sentries or arcs. You need another tech point.
To counter i posed the idea of removing the lerk as a base class and have it require a nest be built on a tech point and only if you are near a lerk nest can u evolve into one.
Maybe not the best ideas but this would encourage the teams to go fourth into the map. Even tho the aliens need a second hive for fade maybe the nest could go down faster.
This would also open up the rts model and make it less linear and give the comms more of a choice and allow them to play more of a strat or build kinda like starcraft2 if you will.
My point is that Natural Selection is an old game, a game that is now being updated to the Source engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They abandoned Source quite a while ago
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/spark/" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/spark/</a>
My point is that Natural Selection is an old game, a game that is now being updated to the Source engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you talking about?
EDIT: beaten to it :(
The time to complain is when the end-game tech is implemented and marines can still do what is essentially "one basing" effectively, but there is no reason to call for further homogenisation between the two sides.
I respect your point and the original game -- I played NS1 quite a bit as well. However, I think you need to understand the direction that NS2 is going. It is different and will continue to differ from the original, especially with regard to tech points. My main point being:
Firstly, NS2 calls the locations "tech points" as opposed to hive locations. Commanders are able to drop chairs here in place of the hive, which was not the case in NS1. Secondly, there are five tech points per map, as opposed to three hive locations in NS1. If the gameplay mechanics should mimic the predecessor, then there should only be three hive locations per map in addition to the marine start. If marines have no incentive to expand and build comm chairs at tech points, it's crazy to make them defend another tech point against alien hive expansion.
If you remember NS1, marines would try to prevent expansion at the two hive locations. In NS2, marines now have to prevent expansion at THREE hive locations. This creates an enormous strain on the marine team as they are constantly spread out in defense mode, leaving very little resources and manpower to attack the main hive.
Thus, the gameplay direction needs clarification. It either needs to be truer to the original game, where there are only three hive locations per map, commanders can build comm chairs anywhere and not just on tech points, or marines need a reason to build comm chairs on tech points. I don't think base expansion as ScardyBob pointed out is good enough because an additional comm chair doesn't offer any benefits aside from giving the marines the ability to have two commanders. I don't see two commanders in very many games as it doesn't offer much strategical value. Marines that aren't the commander are spending their PR on weapons; they won't have enough to jump into the second chair to drop med packs and ammo on squads.
In NS1, marine expansion was almost entirely to block aliens, and it was the single best approach most of the time, so it's pretty important for both sides still.
It's pretty impossible to win without expanding as either team. Aliens need to expand to tech up, while marines would find it very difficult to wipe out aiiens without locking down most of the tech points.
Aliens have the ability to have four hives now, which doesn't help them or make much sense. The only benefits are that it acts as a "safety" hive if one hive were to go down and that it's another place to spawn, but the tech tree will be fully available to aliens at three hives.
So why the extra tech point? They either need to have significance to marine tech upgrades, or the extra needs to be eliminated. Currently marines need to have eyes on three tech points, their base, and the alien start, which essentially is the entire map. For aliens to win, they only need two hives -- the other tech points are meaningless unless the marines have placed an IP there, which you don't see that often because it means replicating more structures at that base (you'll need at least an armory, probably some turrets, possibly another observatory).
I believe this is the cause of the imbalance. If aliens only had three hive locations (including alien start), I think you'd see the marines win a lot more games. The other option is tie marine tech to additional comm chairs (like hives) because it will force them to expand and build at these tech points as well, in which case having five per map makes sense.
The extra tech points are there to allow variety, so you don't have to use the same hive locations all the time. The ability to place a four hive or multiple CCs are the same for both sides, both sides need tech points to place spawn points, blocking bases are just as viable for both sides.
I don't buy the variety argument for having an extra tech point. Essentially you're making the marines have to defend against another hive location (when compared to NS1). How is that fair? Marines must have eyes on three different spots to prevent second hive, whereas in NS1 it is only two. Additionally, marines have no new features or abilities that would make defending an extra area any easier -- they have practically the same tech available as the original game.
Imagine playing NS1 with an additional hive location and calling it "variety".
The thing about marines is they need some bases to provide phase gate coverage, but they don't need complete control in the new system because tech points are closer together. A marine base can control at least one other tech point nearby with relative ease, or at the very least can prevent hives from being grown there and keep the point neutral. And if you have a couple of well placed bases that only becomes more true.
It's not a matter of needing another hive location, again, my point being that marines must defend against three locations (as opposed to two in NS1) to prevent a second hive, which tips the balance in favor of the aliens as it's obviously more difficult to hold and secure three locations as opposed to two. The aliens have more options, and their ability to expand is easier, which is why I believe aliens win the majority of the games in this build.
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My suggestion would be to tie marine tech to additional command centers and keep the five tech point system. I think this is more interesting because there would be scenarios where both teams have access to "tier 2" technology while vying for a third. I think gameplay would be intensified and tech points become more meaningful to both teams, as they are at odds with each other since expansion is critical to victory.
When jetpacks come out and if the current build's gameplay is still in place, it will be a lot easier for marines to ninja hives without holding tech point locations. Marines can turtle in their base and wait for the tech to become available, and then have 5-6 marines wielding shotguns and jetpacks flying out to the hive locations.
Going back to my suggestion, I would move armor/weapon upgrades back to the armory (instead of the arms lab). You can only upgrade to the level that corresponds to the number of command centers you have (this would be true of the alien team as well, controlled in the Whip for both melee and armor). The "new" arms lab would allow for jetpacks and exosuit upgrades. The commander could either place an observatory, robotics factory, or arms lab at the beginning, which would then prohibit the non-selected structures from being built until more commander chairs are created.
- Observatory contains motion tracking, phase gate tech, and phase techs. Also has the ability to scan hives / non-viewable areas
- Robotics factory contains arcs, turrets, and macs (as it currently does)
- Arms lab contains jetpack an exosuit upgrades
Commanders would be forced to make decisions on how to proceed with each structure having its own advantages. A second comm chair would allow a new structure to be built, just like the alien team. Shotguns could still be researched immediately (along with weapons and armor lvl 1). Advanced armory would require two command chairs and allow for grenade launcher and flamethrower research.
While I agree this "homogenizes" the gameplay, I think it will make games more interesting, penalize turtling, and stress the importance of tech points, which could create some cool battles.
It's not a matter of needing another hive location, again, my point being that marines must defend against three locations (as opposed to two in NS1) to prevent a second hive, which tips the balance in favor of the aliens as it's obviously more difficult to hold and secure three locations as opposed to two. The aliens have more options, and their ability to expand is easier, which is why I believe aliens win the majority of the games in this build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a sense yes, but like I said, the points are closer together. It doesn't take much effort to poke your nose into the next tech point and see if there's a hive in there every now and then. It isn't like NS1 where you have miles of corridor between hive locations. You also don't need to secure three locations, securing two usually effectively secures at least one other. This is they key point, everything in NS2 is closer together.
It's not a matter of needing another hive location, again, my point being that marines must defend against three locations (as opposed to two in NS1) to prevent a second hive, which tips the balance in favor of the aliens as it's obviously more difficult to hold and secure three locations as opposed to two. The aliens have more options, and their ability to expand is easier, which is why I believe aliens win the majority of the games in this build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that I see your point more thoroughly, I understand what you're saying and agree to an extent - the extra tech point offers no benefit for either side and is a hassle for the marines.
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<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My suggestion would be to tie marine tech to additional command centers and keep the five tech point system. I think this is more interesting because there would be scenarios where both teams have access to "tier 2" technology while vying for a third. I think gameplay would be intensified and tech points become more meaningful to both teams, as they are at odds with each other since expansion is critical to victory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is the part I just don't agree with. I feel they should just remove the extra tech point. Crossroads, for example, could become a double resource node location. Teams would fight for control because it would mean access to two nodes in one area.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When jetpacks come out and if the current build's gameplay is still in place, it will be a lot easier for marines to ninja hives without holding tech point locations. Marines can turtle in their base and wait for the tech to become available, and then have 5-6 marines wielding shotguns and jetpacks flying out to the hive locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Theoretically speaking you could already do this in NS1, but this strategy never works. As it is now it takes a very long time for marines to even get armor 1 and weapons. A marine team that holds up in main and doesn't try to expand will lose 9/10 times. Weapons 1 and armor 1 aren't tied to jetpacks and heavy suits, those will probably be re-searchable on their own, but jetpacks/heavy suits won't be cheap for the players and they won't be cheap to research. If you fail that one rush you've lost the game. It just won't work like that imho.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Going back to my suggestion, I would move armor/weapon upgrades back to the armory (instead of the arms lab). You can only upgrade to the level that corresponds to the number of command centers you have (this would be true of the alien team as well, controlled in the Whip for both melee and armor). The "new" arms lab would allow for jetpacks and exosuit upgrades. The commander could either place an observatory, robotics factory, or arms lab at the beginning, which would then prohibit the non-selected structures from being built until more commander chairs are created.
- Observatory contains motion tracking, phase gate tech, and phase techs. Also has the ability to scan hives / non-viewable areas
- Robotics factory contains arcs, turrets, and macs (as it currently does)
- Arms lab contains jetpack an exosuit upgrades
Commanders would be forced to make decisions on how to proceed with each structure having its own advantages. A second comm chair would allow a new structure to be built, just like the alien team. Shotguns could still be researched immediately (along with weapons and armor lvl 1). Advanced armory would require two command chairs and allow for grenade launcher and flamethrower research.
While I agree this "homogenizes" the gameplay, I think it will make games more interesting, penalize turtling, and stress the importance of tech points, which could create some cool battles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, the biggest issue I see with your idea is not that it's bad. Technically speaking I do like it. The problem is the game is already in beta and I believe we're past the point of changing gameplay like you suggest. It wouldn't take forever to implement your changes, but it would take awhile and they've already pushed this game back time after time after time. That's why I just don't see it happening. Save some minor balance changes I just don't see them impacting the overall foundation and gameplay in the way you are suggesting. It's just kind of too late imho.
Edit - Lastly, NS is about balance, but it has to be different as well. Clearly their are major differences between the exact steps to winning whether you're alien or marine, but I like the fact that each side plays a little differently. I like that as alien I have to capture tech points and build hives to gain more abilities, and I like that as marine I have one main base to protect and I have to go exterminate multiple alien locations. It adds variety.
I'm not opposed to eliminating the extra tech point (or hive location), either. This would balance the game and borrow time-tested gameplay mechanics from NS1.
I disagree that we're past the point of experimenting with the tiered research approach for marines. If you were playing the beta several months ago, you'll remember that marines needed to get two command centers to upgrade to a command facility in order to research their late-game tech. I don't think it would be that difficult to copy the existing structure for aliens and apply it to the marine side.
I understand that the difference between the sides is essential to the concept of the game. However, aliens have commanders now, which was strictly a marine capability in NS1. I also believe that the alien perspective is still unique enough from the marine that merging the tech tree concept for both sides wouldn't make the gameplay too similar. The lifeforms are well-defined, and their play is completely different from the marine side. With the additions of infestation and power nodes, there are some added differences as well. Finally, the tech tree is completely different for both sides, so even though we're limiting research at the beginning, we're promoting expansion to obtain those unique upgrades.
My point is that Natural Selection is an old game, a game that is now being updated. Changes have been made to gameplay in one way or another but <b>the entire foundation of the game has always been the same.</b> They're not going to change it now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This made me laugh.
Originally, marine tech <u>was</u> dependent on marine expansion in NS2, then they REGRESSED back to the NS1 model you describe. So it was never a case of 'they're not going to change it now' since they already had.
<!--quoteo(post=1855420:date=Jun 23 2011, 01:58 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jun 23 2011, 01:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't matter if you can tech up from one base as long as you can't afford to buy weapons. Map presence is tied to economy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, not entirely true. Personal RFK works against this.
If you have one base and you're killing enough aliens per life to pay for a steady stream of guns, the aliens have much bigger problems than deciding how to break your turtle, because apparently the punisher is fighting for the marine team.
Honestly RFK is pretty trivial, I don't really notice any difference, as gorge it maybe means I can place hydras a little faster, but most of the time res nodes give me about 90% of my cash.
<!--quoteo(post=1855399:date=Jun 23 2011, 01:12 AM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Jun 23 2011, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855399"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines shouldn't be able to turtle.
this has always frustrated me.
From a RTS standpoint turtling is inviting death.
I like the idea of forcing them to expand.
Make some of their tech dependant on that expansion.
If I as a commander own the map ...
I should only have to squeeze my fist to crush the opposing team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.
Maybe they should play with an upkeep mechanism or population cap.
You need three nodes at least to wage a decent campaign against aliens, and you need to control the map to stop them from taking all the nodes and building all the hives, if you can waltz through the entire level blowing up all the alien hives without expanding past marine start I'd love to see the recording.
Starting equipment for either side is a joke against midgame equipment, and will cease to be even that once late game equipment gets into the game. Expansion is required simply because of the size of the levels, and maintaining resource control is key to success. I really don't see what needs changing about this.
I'd like to hear what is you're arguing for... what is it that you're saying? Are you saying there is <b>no problem</b> with the status quo?
<!--quoteo(post=1855465:date=Jun 23 2011, 03:47 AM:name=Enhance89)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Enhance89 @ Jun 23 2011, 03:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is the game is already in beta and I believe we're past the point of changing gameplay like you suggest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again... not correct. The game is incredibly subject to change right now, if any of the twitter posts or the Design Log is any indicator. Plus, 'beta' is probably a mislabel...
I'd like to hear what is you're arguing for... what is it that you're saying? Are you saying there is <b>no problem</b> with the status quo?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well once the game gets properly balanced, you are pretty obviously going to need to buy things like exo/jps, marines of course having their 'classes' split into two types of upgrades rather than the alien single upgrade. That's part of the reason it isn't too problematic that fades are OP at the moment actually. A quick fix like 'give all the marines shotguns' works for now in a rather weird and undignified sort of way and at least makes the game a bit more playable, but the real fix is going to be when marines can carry 50 res worth of gear around with them. At the moment marines don't really have any tech above a lerk, because the most expensive thing they can buy is a flamer.
So, once you get the high tier equipment in, for both sides mind you as aliens don't have most of their upgrades yet, nor their heavy tank class, you will rapidly find it becomes very hard to just sit in a base all day.
It's hard enough now, if you turtle, you are going to lose, it is very very hard for marines to win if they don't push out into the map and fight tooth and nail for those tech points right from the get go. You NEED to stop aliens from getting tech two, or at the very least you need to delay them from getting it until you get bases established and resources controlled. Now while I don't expect tech two to be such a make or break thing for the marines once they can get exosuits, I do expect tech three to be something like that. Blocking alien access to onoses and one of their upgrade sets is going to be a very effective way of securing marine victory.
I find it hard to imagine that even with their late tech, marines would be able to push back aliens who have three hives and all the attendant resource control that brings. If marines don't have at least one other base and two or three other extractors, and they don't seriously push that third hive, they're going to be in serious trouble. Of course if the map allows space for three marine bases, four or five extractors, and <i>also</i> three alien hives and all their attendant resources, then you will probably find that the game is a bit more evenly matched, yes aliens have onoses, but marines have excellent mobility between their bases and they have the extractors neccesary to fund lots of jetpackers and exosuits and top grade weapons like railguns and dual miniguns. They will be able to start levelling some serious firepower against those onoses and fades so it could go either way really. Probably you'll find that targetting enemy resource production to slow down their production of heavy lifeforms/weapons will be the key to victory as outlying extractors are likely to be much more vulnerable than the hives or bases.
Marines win by being aggressive, turtling doesn't make you win, how can it? You can't kill the enemy unless you get your arse out of base, you don't win on points or time in NS so there is simply no possible way that marines do not need to, at some point, have control over the map in order to win. Marines rely on their bases for mobility, without bases marines can't react properly, so they favour a very base heavy expansion approach. Build more bases and connect them via phase gates. Similarly aliens can't win with just skulks, they don't require bases for mobility like marines do, but they do need it for tech. That's the asymmetry, aliens have mobility but need tech, marines have tech but need mobility, and both sides need to expand.
Many of us believe it needs to be improved... we don't all agree on how, but you're the only one that seems to believe it's fine exactly as it is.
The problem I see is not whether it is required to expand, but whether there is incentive to do so. You are of the opinion that 'to win' is enough incentive. But we're human beings, our value system is hyperbolic with respect to time. Perhaps it's a side-effect of the disconnect between player equipment and commander decisions: From the commander's perspective, he may have enough res to do what he needs to do; but a player may not have enough res to buy equipment (or he may, but for the purpose of winning the game, it's not enough); but it isn't the players that make the decision to expand, it's the commander that decides whether or not the team should expand and how. Alien commanders MUST expand to access higher levels of tech.
Of course, marine commanders may learn to expand 'unnecessarily' because it's necessary to win.
???
Anything wrong with this picture?
I have no idea what you mean by the second paragraph.
You need to expand to win, that's your incentive. As a commander, the way I see it is that if I don't expand, the mean aliens are going to come and smash up my nice base that I built, so I am going to build more nice bases and yell at those guys down there to shoot the mean aliens and build my nice bases for me, because I can't afford enough robots to do it yet.
Or to put it another way, as a commander I know what I need to do in order to win, I know that I cannot win by sitting at this side of the map while the aliens are at the other side of the map. I also know the alien hive is not likely to come and walk in front of my sentry guns, so until I get my nice army of robots over there to shoot at the alien hive, the aliens are going to keep coming and trying to kill me. I also notice that there's all these guys running around and they can't run very far without getting eaten, I figure they have some sort of limited power supply which operates both their brains and their legs, so if they use their legs too much they just sort of shut down and die. But all of that's ok because I can build teleporters to minimise the amount of running they have to do! Trouble is, the aliens seem to know this and have this annoying habit of trying to eat the teleporters, so I have to build all this other crap around them to distract the aliens and attract more of the little guys. It's a bit like rollercoaster tycoon, you build armories and infantry portals and hot dog stands to attract more marines to your base so that your base doesn't get blown up. Anyway eventually, once I do this enough times, I tell the guys that the alien hive is just through that corridor, and even better, it's full of delicious candy! And I'm going to send these robots with them which can smash the hive to get the candy out, but they have to protect the robots because for some reason the robots can't shoot at the aliens themselves. After a few dozen deaths, they manage to get the robots close enough to smash the hive, and promptly complain about the lack of candy, but who cares? I got a nice clean alien free map now!
That might be an odd way of looking at it but it is pretty accurate. Marines on the ground love bases, you want as many bases as you can because marines aren't very bright or very good so you need to put lots of nice buildings around them to distract the aliens and keep the marines happy and encourage more of them to go there. Managing a team is much like managing cats, in theory you can get them to do as they're told, but it's much easier to just put a big pile of treats in the area you want them to go.
In theory it may be possible for a sufficiently organised and skilled marine team to run through the map blowing up everything, but it's much easier to just rearrange the map so that when they run away like little pansies as soon as they stub their toe, they run somewhere a bit closer than marine start. Also they aren't really the fastest bunch so it is even more helpful if you put like all this stuff in the hive locations, so that the aliens get distracted and try to kill it, thus giving your marines time to scratch their arses and finish making a cup of tea before they respond to you screaming into the microphone about how the middle base is going down.
Bases are almost entirely team management tools, but effective ones.
You know reading that back I wonder if I might actually be playing a somewhat different game to the rest of you...
this has always frustrated me.
From a RTS standpoint turtling is inviting death.
I like the idea of forcing them to expand.
Make some of their tech dependant on that expansion.
If I as a commander own the map ...
I should only have to squeeze my fist to crush the opposing team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*facepalm*
Look, no turtle is completely impenetrable. You can break through, you just have to make a concentrated attack at the weakest point.
At the same time, turtling in the right circumstances can let you tech up enough to make a meaningful attack yourself.
Turling is just slang for improving defenses. Fortunately, NS2 already gives you the tools to destroy defenses of any number as either Marine of Kharaa. There's nothing wrong about turtling, and there's nothing inevitable about it either. If anything turtling is a symptom of a resource or imbalance that allows the superior side the excess time and security to put down roots.