Gameplay Aesthetics and Eyecandy - Debate

DrunkenPuppyDrunkenPuppy Join Date: 2010-02-21 Member: 70670Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A debate on the importance of aesthetics and eyecandy this early on</div>I have come across several interesting posts and arguments revolving around gameplay aesthetics and eye candy and wish to pose a question to the community on this topic.

How important are these topics this early on in the game?
Should the developers be concentrating more or less on aesthetics then they currently are?

It is something interesting to think about when you see the Overgrowth team (however difficult to compare the two game styles and audiences) putting a lot more effort into these areas.

This also creates a tradeoff between attempting to attract the more "common" gamer to the development process and the gamer who is more impressed with the countless lines of code written to make the game run correctly.

Overall I rate the importance of the gameplay aesthetics and eye candy very high. However, I am personally on the fence about how early these topics should be concentrated on and I would like to get a good discussion going on this topic.

Comments

  • mammajoe44mammajoe44 Join Date: 2011-06-04 Member: 102635Members
    I dont care about eye candy i just dont want it to look ugly. The big problem is frame rate something i would like to have in ns2.
  • DJPenguinDJPenguin Useless Join Date: 2003-07-29 Member: 18538Members
    edited June 2011
    it's somewhat low for me. although one big thing for me is fluid character motion ie. no stopping mid-reload to shoot, believable movement when going from prone to standing, crap like that. as for graphics, i kind of wish developers would take a step back in some instances. less intensive graphics = more junk on screen at once. mount and blade for example (first person medieval game), with file altering, can have several hundred people/bots on screen at once because it uses graphics similar to call of duty 1. graphic intensity seems to have come to a speed bump. ok, cool, people in video games this year as opposed to several years ago have detailed pimples on their face!... it's why I'm a bigger fan of stylized realism anymore. some of these games with ultra realistic graphics just aren't that attractive to me.
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu Anememone Join Date: 2002-03-23 Member: 345Members
    I don't care when they put in the features, I just want it to be fun when it comes out. If they add bloom today or 6 months from now, it doesn't matter. If I were playing the beta a bunch, I would want them to prioritize gameplay, and otherwise I guess it's nice to make the game prettier so they can sell more preorders and keep themselves from starving to death, but honestly, there are better things to worry about than the order in which a development team adds features to an unfinished game. Everything they're adding will get into the pot at some point, and unless you're one of the people trying to eat all the soup while it's still cooking, you shouldn't really care when each ingredient gets tossed in.

    Graphics features need to be tested too, so it's not like they'd be more efficient adding them all in at the end.
  • CrakeCrake Join Date: 2010-11-28 Member: 75323Members
    imo getting the aesthetics down early leaves lots of time for optimising the engine rather than slapping it on near the end and being stuck with a tacky graphics engine
  • Lemming JesusLemming Jesus Join Date: 2010-04-13 Member: 71385Members
    They need to remodel the robotics factory. That thing was a huge let down. I finished building it and expected it to open up really cool and nothing happened at all. It's just a big green brick and goes against the design of everything marines have. It should have arms assembling the arc/macs and glow while doing it. I'd also love to see a build effect for all buildings like in SupCom.
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-2wa1vMbk8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-2wa1vMbk8</a>
  • TalesinTalesin Our own little well of hate Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
    Features first. Optimization second. Gameplay mechanic balancing last. Saves time when your featureset is all there, when you start optimizing.
  • TriggermanTriggerman Graphic Artist Join Date: 2004-11-10 Member: 32724Members, WC 2013 - Supporter
    <!--quoteo(post=1851080:date=Jun 8 2011, 11:26 PM:name=Talesin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talesin @ Jun 8 2011, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Features first. Optimization second. Gameplay mechanic balancing last. Saves time when your featureset is all there, when you start optimizing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Agreed. I mean it's just the way game development goes.


    <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->OoT: I don't play the game too much now because I know (usually) that one of them is bound to be not working with each patch.
    If it lacks features, it's not interesting. If it lags, it's hard to play. If it's unbalanced, it's not fun. Talk about hard to please with a beta, really.

    But it's still the best $35 I've spent; the game at the moment is just a very, very awesome pre-order. And once it gets 1.0, oh momma.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
  • JirikiJiriki retired ns1 player Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11780Members, NS1 Playtester, Squad Five Silver
    Most people who are cheering for eye candy, "realism" or aesthetics are not going to play the game 9 years like we played NS1. As soon as a better game with better eye candy comes out, the flock will move. Starcraft, by today's standards, looks crap but is still the best RTS out there.

    Aesthetics and atmosphere is "static content" that will be consumed in time, like watching a movie or playing a single-player game, but great gameplay can last forever. Great looks is probably a mandatory element for a successful game today but making amendments for aesthetics with the expense of gameplay is not how the best multiplayer games were made. Multiplayer games have to have a very good gameplay to stay interesting for long.
  • marsvinmarsvin Join Date: 2011-03-22 Member: 87920Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1851115:date=Jun 9 2011, 02:04 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Jun 9 2011, 02:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851115"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aesthetics and atmosphere is "static content" that will be consumed in time, like watching a movie or playing a single-player game, but great gameplay can last forever. Great looks is probably a mandatory element for a successful game today but making amendments for aesthetics with the expense of gameplay is not how the best multiplayer games were made. Multiplayer games have to have a very good gameplay to stay interesting for long.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I don't think anyone would advocate sacrificing gameplay for aesthetics, but as you say great graphics are not a luxury if you want to be commercially successful. Not to say "hardcore" fans aren't important but us still playing the game 9 years from now won't make UWE more money, no matter how good the gameplay (or graphics for that matter) not many people will still want to buy it by then.

    In response to the OP, I'm not sure I see how Overgrowth is that much better graphically. From the video's I've seen I'm much more impressed with NS2's look, although maybe Overgrowth is in some way more technically accomplished?
  • OutlawDrOutlawDr Join Date: 2009-06-21 Member: 67887Members
    edited June 2011
    Aesthetics will always matter. Eye candy depends on how much of a graphics ###### you are. But aesthetics is one of the major factors that attracts us to games. All of us were attracted to NS due to the whole gritty and dark world of space marines battling aliens. And I would say that aesthetic and atmosphere is what sustains us playing it. If UWE were to suddenly change aliens into pink ponies, marines into LA cops and the space stations we fight in into one of the more over the top TF2 maps, a lot of the NS players ..even the hardcore NS players.. would be turned off by it...even if the gameplay was exactly the same. Im not saying to go out of our way to sacrifice gameplay in order to appease aesthetic concerns, but aesthetics will always be a factor to consider.
  • Jason WhoreJason Whore Join Date: 2011-04-11 Member: 92514Members
    edited June 2011
    grafics not so much.. but movement, animations.. this stuff...
    it should look polished...
    The Gorge curently has some funny eye-twitch ^^ it annoys me death even tho i NEVER see it (exceot i crouch up to an afk gorge)
    it should look noble no matter what angle you look at the characters/ anims.. even in slowmo
    so..

    Smooth Animation Transition (EDIT : lol kinda got fixed.. or at least UWE startet to fix it.)
    Physics overridden Deathanimations / Physics and animation blending (EDIT : this maybe too...)
    to the ground aligned feet
    first person body / feet

    and, you wouldnt expect that from me.. , NO turn animations
    because standing still while turning around Z-axis looks still better than some crazy foot movement that doesnt match the turning speed. .... well, unless you do it REALLY good.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited June 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1851140:date=Jun 9 2011, 05:23 AM:name=Jason ######)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jason ###### @ Jun 9 2011, 05:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Smooth Animation Transition
    Physics overridden Deathanimations / Physics and animation blending
    to the ground aligned feet
    first person body / feet

    and, you wouldnt expect that from me.. , NO turn animations
    because standing still while turning around Z-axis looks still better than some crazy foot movement that doesnt match the turning speed. .... well, unless you do it REALLY good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    this is the only area aesthetically that i care about. its jarring. watch the skulk from 3rd person camera, this is almost the same quality as hl1 engine, which was a modded Quake1.5 engine. current games like the crysis franchise pulled this off beautifully, but according to the ceo of crytek it wasnt worth their developer time as the majority of gamers didnt notice it. (i sure as hell did) so until 3rd party animation systems are affordable by indie dev teams (such as euphoria and EA's Fifa animation software etc) we will not see this done by anybody. second time today ive mentioned this dev team, but, Wolfire so far at least shows some resemblance of this fluid animation transitioning and body/posture alignment to floor etc. (but this is after some 4 years or something of engine making with combat in mind.)

    on a more related note to the topic:
    more importantly is the thing that kept NS alive publicly and competitively, that fluid skill based movement; its not being reflected in the marine's lack of movement control. it feels wonky, especially with sprinting. not asking for Bhoppin but its too rigid for gameplay reaons. (reminds me of a Onos animations thread that happened about a year ago in the now empty get satisfaction)
  • Jason WhoreJason Whore Join Date: 2011-04-11 Member: 92514Members
    wait.. are you talking about the turn animations?
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1851115:date=Jun 9 2011, 08:04 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Jun 9 2011, 08:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851115"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most people who are cheering for eye candy, "realism" or aesthetics are not going to play the game 9 years like we played NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sure, but are you going to buy the game 20 times to make up the sales?
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