Limit Lifeforms to Number of Chambers
l3lessed
Join Date: 2010-06-07 Member: 71977Members
Join Date: 2010-06-07 Member: 71977Members
So now in order to become a lerk or gorge your team must have the corresponding structure. I like this system, and I think will add much needed balance to aliens ability to evolve quickly in the games.
I had a thought though. In order to encourage commanders to build chambers, put them in smart and strategic locations, and encourage teams to defend them more, what if the amount of lifeforms that can be evolved at once is tied directly to the amount of chambers. In an essence each chamber supports the life form and its ability to evolve and once destroyed so is the ability to evolve. So literally to have two lerks on a team you would need two whips. For balance, you could just adjust the numbers so one whip can support two lerks and so on.
Just thinking this would encourage more interaction between the aliens, the commander, and the way infestation and buildings are placed and defended, because with every building destroyed you loose the ability to have one of those lifeforms on the field.
I had a thought though. In order to encourage commanders to build chambers, put them in smart and strategic locations, and encourage teams to defend them more, what if the amount of lifeforms that can be evolved at once is tied directly to the amount of chambers. In an essence each chamber supports the life form and its ability to evolve and once destroyed so is the ability to evolve. So literally to have two lerks on a team you would need two whips. For balance, you could just adjust the numbers so one whip can support two lerks and so on.
Just thinking this would encourage more interaction between the aliens, the commander, and the way infestation and buildings are placed and defended, because with every building destroyed you loose the ability to have one of those lifeforms on the field.
Comments
1 Hive Skulk, Gorge, Lerk
2 Hive Fade
3 Hive Onos
And something similar for the marines (actually tie-ing the weapons into the number of CC's alongside a research at the armory cost balancing and stuffs) Lose your third CC your EXO skeletons are forfeit :P
Not that this is going to happen <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/rolleyes.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I personally favor the tying to the chambers. I imagine the fade will inevitably be tied to the sensory chamber. I don't know about the onos. Maybe to get an onos you need all of the chambers at once. This is getting away from the original topic though.
Maybe have more advanced lifeforms dependant on more buildings?
Skulk (none, just hives obviously)
Gorge (none, just hives)
Lerk (Whip)
Fade (Shift and Shade)
Onos (Crag, Whip, Shift)
Has to be logically shown on the B menu though... (Perhaps icons for the related lifeform, grayed out for lack of building?)
[edit]
I think the marines will be getting this limitation as well with the planned buildings:
Robotics Factory -> gone no more ARCs?
Prototype Laboratory -> gone no more Jetty's
Either one or armory gone (needs all three buildings) -> no more EXO's?
You mean like: Tether more structures to Tech Points? In other words make other structures that provide Technology buildable only on a Tech Point. That way at each expansion you are gaining access to a new path/branch in the tech tree. For example:
<ul><li>Command Station (More IPs, more MACs if they limit the number per CC)</li><li>Observatory (Scan, D. Beacon, Transponders, Phase Gates)</li><li>Robotics Factory (ARC, Mines, Sentry Turrets??)</li><li>Prototype Laboratory (Jetpack, Exoskeleton)</li></ul>
IPs, Armory, Extractor, Sentry Turrets, and Power Packs would still be droppable anywhere there's power.
I wonder though what the purpose the CC and hive would have then. The hive has a little more of a purpose since they added in DI, because it now is one of the main mechanisms of getting DI around the map where you need it, but I would like to see more of a roll since life forms, buildings, and upgrades aren't tied to it anymore, which I favor. The only other thought I have, and again this is off topic, is to tie resource production rates to CC's and hives. The closer a harvester is to a hive or CC the more res it brings in because the CC/hive acts like a collection and processing unit.
I agree limiting available Tech to CC's makes for a very linear Tech Tree. In what you're suggesting, the available upgrades/technology for either side are limited only by the amount of resources available to you (to build a certain arbitrary number/combination of structures), making the game entirely about Res Points and essentially obsoleting Tech Points. If Tech Points become useless/obsolete, we're back to NS1. Territorial control is a core aspect of this game, and the need to capture Tech Points enforces that.
Limiting Tech-providing structures to Tech Points imposes a clear ceiling to either teams Technological/Evolutionary potential, that can be advanced by securing Tech Points. Choice is much more clear here; you've got a limited number of Tech Points, and a limited choice of unique structures. Your Tech Point build order determines the Technologies available to you. At the same time, your opponents can react and target that Tech Point in an attempt to deny you that Technology.
Because each structure would provide access to multiple technologies, you have a lot of room to balance the net result of each Tech Structure.
This problem is why almost no other RTS style games tie technology and upgrades to territory control. Instead they tie resource and battle advantage to territory control. The more territory the more resources possible to take in and the better environmental battle zones you have to choose from to give your army an advantage.
With proper DI and power system implimentation, territory control is very important past resource collection. The more territory you can control the more areas you have a inherent advantage to fight on.
Plus max in his design blog already kind of said this as a reason he is getting rid of tech tied to tech points. Although he might want to change the name of the points now.
The only real benefit of more hives is extra spawn points. Even if we forced hives to have to be built in order for DI to expand further, that would still be tying territory to tech points again.
<!--quoteo(post=1844630:date=May 7 2011, 03:57 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 7 2011, 03:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uh, this is kind of obvious, but in that situation, tech tied to tech points is not the bad game design, the rock-paper-scissors dynamic is the bad game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems some have this dire aversion to any degree of a RPS mechanic in games, but it does exist to a small degree in just about every competitive game, because it is a very common abstraction when dealing with multiple players (see the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma" target="_blank">Prisoner's Dilemma</a>). I agree with both of your concerns, but like one of you said, it is an oversimplified and untrustworthy metaphor, because there are no hard rock, paper, scissors counters in NS2. Each structure gives access to multiple technologies, none of which are hard-countered by any one of thing the opposing team possesses. Even if a stalemate over the last Tech Point was entered, Marines could recycle their Tech Point and drop a new structure to change their tactics as a last resort.
<!--quoteo(post=1844690:date=May 7 2011, 11:11 AM:name=rhysjones81)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhysjones81 @ May 7 2011, 11:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the only issue with not having tech tied to tech points I can see, Because I honestly agree with everything being said here, Is the aliens will never need to expand into new hives, like the marines they will just carry on as normal with one hive and that'll be it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens will still need to expand to further their capacity to spread Infestation, which is a core function of the Alien Commander. It seems less essential for Marines right now, hence my suggestion (which still ties Tech to Tech Points, but in a more intuitive and organic way.)
<!--quoteo(post=1844897:date=May 8 2011, 06:51 PM:name=CaCa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CaCa @ May 8 2011, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, yeah, I know it's incomplete... That's just the thing: The same could be said for your idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Precisely, so the point is moot.
<!--quoteo(post=1844897:date=May 8 2011, 06:51 PM:name=CaCa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CaCa @ May 8 2011, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I didn't notice you meant for it to be symmetrical, as in the aliens would also cap tech-points by building their research structures on 'em. But then with the aliens I actually like them capping tech-points with hives. "Feels" right, as that's how it was in NS1. And they have a pretty good "risk/reward" system with that already by default.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't mean, or imply that, I was simply stating that they had an even number of comparable structures, and therefore whatever implementation is decided would already be easy to manage. Aliens should still be capping with Hives, but, as a potential example, Mature Chambers could be restricted by the number of Hives thus that each Hive permits you to build another type of Mature Chamber, so you're still expanding with Hives, but Hives still unlock access to advanced research.
<!--quoteo(post=1844897:date=May 8 2011, 06:51 PM:name=CaCa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CaCa @ May 8 2011, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, I like the idea of actually "using" the whole map, specifically it's tech-points, in a meaningful way like this. But I insist that having the upgrade structures so "out in the open" would just be too much of a loss when one is destroyed. I mean, I think I'd prefer where it was headed originally in that you lose an upgrade tier by losing a tech point so that when you re-cap a tech-point and go back up a tier everything that was upgraded from the respective structures comes back online, just as when a power node is repaired all structures related to it come back online. I actually prefer this than losing a structure and it's respective upgrades and so then having to rebuild that specific structure and re-research it's respective upgrades...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, your territory and it's structures should be at risk, otherwise there's no incentive to fight for it. Also, no one explicated or implied you'd have to re-research respective upgrades. Same as it is now, any Tech Research is permanent (as it is in every other RTS), but acquiring that Technology still requires the providing structure (which can then be denied).
<!--quoteo(post=1844897:date=May 8 2011, 06:51 PM:name=CaCa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CaCa @ May 8 2011, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, all that said, it wasn't ever <i>really</i> 100% clear to me if the dev's idea was so that if you lose a tech-point you lose that tier and everything upgraded is lost until re-researched or if it all came back when re-capping a tech-point. I always assumed this was how it was supposed to end up being... So if the dev's actual idea was to make you lose <i>everything</i> and having to re-research everything that was lost, then that changes everything...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never said that. You would retain any completed Research, as it is in NS2 and any standard RTS, but you lose access to the structure, it's functions, and anything that depends on that structure (you can't build a MAC without a CC, or an ARC without a Robotics Facility) simply by it not being there. This is exactly how it works currently, so what I'm suggesting isn't really changing anything other than the tech tree structure.