<!--quoteo(post=1840519:date=Apr 11 2011, 10:09 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Apr 11 2011, 10:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd agree if you ordered before "Fall 2009".
Although the information is out there, it's their for the user to plainly see. The product is advertised as unfinished. The question is not about how playable or laggy the game is etc. that's irrelevant. It's as advertised, unfinished with lots of information including videos from NS2HD which can be found on the product creators website.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is that information plainly to see?
If I look at the frontpage, where the primary preorder-button is located, all I'm seeing is a link to NS2HD and a video of NS2HD, followed by change-logs which don't tell a lot of the current game-experience. Side-tracking to NS2HD for a moment, I think I've been over this quite thoroughly a while back, namely that it's quite misleading at this point. The videos are smoother than what you're getting ingame frankly (partially due to YouTube's interpolation magic I'd reckon), and the more serious issues tend to be played down (to-desktop crashes for example you won't be seeing in those videos, obviously not something you'd make a video of, but it just goes to show).
The F.A.Q STILL says "A 1.2 GHz Processor, 256MB RAM", even though it's been updated last november and it was quite clear that even with the most optimistic outlook those weren't reasonable system requirements. The forum is the place to be to get any real information regarding the state of things, but it's a jungle in here, and not exactly the friendliest of places this thread yet again illustrates.
I'm not accusing UWE of deliberate misinformation, but the ongoing poor communication to customers is what keeps leading to these kinds of threads. It's not normal to have to pick through the forum for posts of UWE-associates to get any clear-cut information regarding the game...
<!--quoteo(post=1840511:date=Apr 11 2011, 07:14 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Apr 11 2011, 07:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In general I think UWE has done their share of pushing the limits of good ethics in terms of alpha and beta definitions, misleading sys reqs, progress rerpesentation and release dates, so I've got absolutely no problem if someone wants a refund from that viewpoint either.
Also, the total disrespect towards anyone thinking about a refund is a pretty good summary of these forums these days. Even if it's not nice for UWE, being a rapid fanboy is just going to push NS2 community further into a point where only a handful people actively care about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't say it's specific to UWE, but in general, you wouldn't want to blindly purchase a product, then decide "meh, it's too early, I want my money back for now". If you look at the main page news, the first video pretty much shows how unfinished the game is (an untextured box, a stuck marine, etc). The regular changelogs usually have a handful of entries starting with "bug fixed", and of course the Progress page is pretty explicit. I don't think UWE would be to blame for an uninformed purchase. Maybe this time you can get a refund, but eventually, you will find a product you can't turn back (I'm thinking about stuff like clothing or other items that can't be returned for hygiene reasons) and regret simply not taking a bit more time to figure out whether you should have bought the product in the first place.
>Anyone who calls pre-ordering a game an "investment" is no less than pants on head retarded.
I pre-ordered the game as an investment in NS2 and to show my appreciation for NS1. No, I'm not mentally defective, just (thankfully) different than you.
<!--quoteo(post=1840530:date=Apr 11 2011, 03:46 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Apr 11 2011, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't say it's specific to UWE, but in general, you wouldn't want to blindly purchase a product, then decide "meh, it's too early, I want my money back for now". If you look at the main page news, the first video pretty much shows how unfinished the game is (an untextured box, a stuck marine, etc). The regular changelogs usually have a handful of entries starting with "bug fixed", and of course the Progress page is pretty explicit. I don't think UWE would be to blame for an uninformed purchase. Maybe this time you can get a refund, but eventually, you will find a product you can't turn back (I'm thinking about stuff like clothing or other items that can't be returned for hygiene reasons) and regret simply not taking a bit more time to figure out whether you should have bought the product in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a bit of a tricky thing these days, I think. For anyone following NS2 development closely it's pretty obvious how the things are, but I'm not sure how well it translates to people with varying levels of knowledge and understanding of game development and such.
For example the beta definition seems to be a totally different depending on who you ask. The big companies do things their way and UWE seems to do it their way. The development pace of an indie team is also pretty much anyone's guess. Things like progress page can even be quite misleading, since the specialized UWE emplyees work on different areas of game.
Obviously people should be careful where they put their money and you can't blame anyone else for making a bad purchase in general, but I think preorders like this are still very likely to cause misunderstood purchases and such. At that point I think the refunds seem like a reasonable approach. It's still good that people encouraged to make preorders and fund the game instead of being awfully careful not to fall for some incomplete product. Purely rationally thinking you should always only purchase the complete product, but that's probably a mindset most indie developers would like to avoid.
All in all, I've got quite a lot of understanding for both sides of this one. I personally favour pretty liberal refunds considering all the chaos and potential misconceptions both in the industry in general and to some extend in the NS2 development itself. That way they can clearly stick away from the gray area where they'd benefit from misleading the customers.
The misunderstanding is, that you buy the game in it's current state. Actually you preorder the game now to recieve a full game later, just like any other preorder, but as a bonus you can also play the game in it's current state.
But btt.. Email to store@unknownworlds.com and ask there. Might take a few days for a response.
its not even about buying smartly or any bs like that. what if you preordered the game based on the type of game ns 1 was and the rep of the devs. and now you dont like the direction that ns2 is heading in. i myself have been waning about doing a refund. there are many changes that i dont agree with and will obviously be implemented into the game. that along with how the focus of the game seems to change almost weekly, its hard to think that the game will be satisfactory once its finally released. There are many design changes from ns1 that I dont agree with and seem like change for the sake of change or shortsighted. no, ns2 isnt "finished" yet but with so much that I think is wrong, I dont have hope that ns2 will be fun. who knows though.
Venem you have used the product fully. You won't get a refund. You changed your mind based on the direction a game was taken, okay, so I want all my money back that I invested in WoW pre-Cataclysm, now I've played Cata for a few months I don't like it. You get the point, /facepalm.
I'm under no illusion that yes, the system requirements page needs an update, yes the information is not as clear as possible. Although from a consumer focus point of view the information you need is simply spending 20-30 minutes reviewing the latest updates of the UWE blog.
I don't know how some people live in the world with the way they make their choices, although when buying a computer game as an example, I'll review several sources of information and even talk to those that may already be or are planning to play it. I do the same with things such as buying a television, a music album, a mobile phone, a book, a graphics card, heck, even things such as buying suits and shoes I go with recommended brands by consumers, friends and critics.
Unfortunately the consumer has to take the flack here and from now on in, you live in a world of choice and information rich media. And particularly a video game if you don't read reviews, previews, the full extent of information on the developers site or even dabble in the games forums in the slightest, you really are at fault for a "bad purchase" on your behalf as at the end of the day, no one forced you to buy the product, you did that of your own free will and there is all that information there.
It's not about me being a fanboy here, in fact if you ask the development team and in particular Cory *(edit: who's even given me a bit of a telling off for being a bit of a moron to be honest) who makes a lot of responses on the forums, I've been for and against things in the past and not always agree'd with some of the direction etc. Although I'll stand by them with not wanting to issue refunds to people who quickly want one or who have used the product for a fair while and want one. The focus should be on a business being a business, the consumer is at the end of the day responsible. The only thing that I see that may be needed is a clear refund or no-refund policy advertised within a disclaimer when buying, apart from that, from my own perspective, common sense says, do your research first, I always do.
Yes, we do give refunds, and have given them to everyone who has asked for one so far. We understand the CURRENT state of the game may be different then the expectations of people pre-ordering it, if they have not been following the development process closely.
In our defense, there should be a known risk in buying into a game that has not been officially released, or reviewed by the gaming press. We have been purposely avoiding trying to get the game advertised in a more wide spread fashion as we know its not ready yet, and expect that the pre-orders would come from people who are more interested in being involved and influential in the ground level development of a game, then just playing a finished product. Its definitely a different model from most games, so its understandable that it can be confusing. Whats different is that, when you typically pre-order a game from another company, you don't get instant access to their current development version as you do with NS2, even though they are often in a buggy and unfinished state as well when their pre-orders start.
We are not trying to deceive people in any way, but there simply is no good way to communicate the situation to customers who are looking into buying the game. On the buy page it says "The beta is not fully optimized so a more powerful system is recommended". Beyond that, we aren't going to be putting up big banners everywhere saying "Game is not optimized and unfinished, don't buy yet!" because there are still plenty of people who do buy who can run it reasonably well, and end up having some fun with it and enjoying an early look into what NS2 is going to become. And we are also confident that the game, in its final form is going to be fun, optimized, and feature complete by the time its officially released.
So, in the meantime, we will continue to give refunds, and hope that those people will come back when the game is done and buy it again.
I am in a constant tease being able to play the game online and have a decent experience (especially commanding, minus macs/drifters crashing into doors). There are some design decisions I'm iffy about however with everything changing so frequently I'm having fun watching things progress (although there has been a slowdown as of the past month or so.. maybe something big coming our way?). I have easily invested 100+ hours into a map and am coming up to the point where I would like to start testing but see no point in doing so until less laggy meaningful games can be played. I also feel its tough to make map balance changes until tier 3 is in. It will be a completely different game when hitting max tech means turtling for the opponent won't be nearly as effective.
This all said I hope we get some new content or at least a little performance boost soon. I don't regret my decision to purchase and have even donated another $20 since, but with the time invested it would be a shame to see people losing interest from a lack of noticeable progress. The past couple patches have definitely made improvements, but they are only clear to those who have followed each patch closely. Hopefully tomorrow brings a new patch with the lua bind improvements. If game play was smoother I could definitely see more full servers all day long even with unrefined balance.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2011
I think the biggest source of confusion is calling the current state of the game "beta". The vast majority of players consider a "beta" to be nearly feature-complete, which the current game is nowhere close to being. If shown to regular gamers, almost everyone would say this is still in "alpha". I run into this almost daily on public servers with long-time NS1 fans trying out NS2 for the first time. They are confused to why they can't play the onos when seen in the original trailer and evolve menu, and why so many things are missing in what they thought was a true beta game. A lot of them are so taken back that they feel deceived and may not come back.
I completely understand why UWE had to call it "beta" due to financial considerations, but they really need to explain it a bit more on the purchase page so as to not appear to deceive players. I'm not complaining about the state of the game at all. I understand the state of the game and what UWE is doing and am proud of my purchase almost 2 years ago, but they need to explain this better to the rest of the world whose definition of "beta" is quite different.
black armor achieves the same fiscal function as the late constellation system by the same means
[] donations are ostensibly out of good will, to help the cause [][] but like donations to non-for-profits a lot of the people's main reason for the swag [][][] (like brand labeled t-shirt) [][] (or a nifty in-game icon) [] (or black armor)
<!--quoteo(post=1840553:date=Apr 11 2011, 02:21 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Apr 11 2011, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have been purposely avoiding trying to get the game advertised in a more wide spread fashion as we know its not ready yet, and expect that the pre-orders would come from people who are more interested in being involved and influential in the ground level development of a game, then just playing a finished product.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i pre-ordered the alpha version cause i wanted to opt-in to exclusive jobs that the playtesters of NS1 used to have i wanted to be part of it from the start, have a potential influence on balance changes etc i gotta say when people say "paid $20 extra for ur black armor to show off ur big e-peen" i resent that cause i know the contempt for status signifiers that people pay for, and i prefer not to come off like that
i remember the IRC release parties of point versions of NS, the vitality of the community reaching a popularity peak cool idea turns out the alpha was a cluster F and the beta is mostly empty lesson learned?
<!--quoteo(post=1840553:date=Apr 11 2011, 02:21 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Apr 11 2011, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, in the meantime, we will continue to give refunds, and hope that those people will come back when the game is done and buy it again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And it is great that you do, it is things like this, in my mind, that help distinguish UWE as a good company and one worth supporting.
<!--quoteo(post=1840551:date=Apr 11 2011, 02:16 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Apr 11 2011, 02:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Venem you have used the product fully. You won't get a refund. You changed your mind based on the direction a game was taken, okay, so I want all my money back that I invested in WoW pre-Cataclysm, now I've played Cata for a few months I don't like it. You get the point, /facepalm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you wanna know whats "facepalm"?
1. I said waning 2. ns2 isnt out yet in stores so thats hardly a valid comparison..
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the biggest source of confusion is calling the current state of the game "beta". The vast majority of players consider a "beta" to be nearly feature-complete, which the current game is nowhere close to being. If shown to regular gamers, almost everyone would say this is still in "alpha".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats because people get spoiled with the term BETA. What we're seeing now is certainly a BETA. But larger companies with publishers backing them with millions of dollars will have the game polished up the the point of completion and then release a "BETA" to build hype and get word of mouth moving. Most "BETAS" only last around 2 weeks to a month now because of this and it's more of a stress test then a BETA.
Most BETA builds also are still developer exclusive. Meaning only the developers are testing ect... UWE has just been gracious enough to a community that has supported them through thick and thin. Without this community UWE would not exist. This was a gift to the community by allowing us to play the game during this stage of BETA for all the support over the past 10 years.
It's people who don't do their research or know the facts before clicking that purchase button who are asking for a refund. Their expectations of the game were clearly to high for a game that is still in BETA. Again reiterating on my point that people are spoiled with the term BETA from the larger companies that have teams of 50-100 people with a high budget to spend and release a complete version of the game as "BETA" as a marketing strategy.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1840577:date=Apr 11 2011, 04:24 PM:name=OPIE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OPIE @ Apr 11 2011, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats because people get spoiled with the term BETA. What we're seeing now is certainly a BETA.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has been debated to death, but the most common accepted definition of a beta release is "feature complete". This is what most people expect...not because they are spoiled, but because that is the definition of the term "beta". This has no legal binding, of course, and UWE can define it however they choose, which they have done, but many players are not aware that NS2 beta does not mean feature complete as the term implies. And if you read any of UWE's comments following the beta release, you will see that they agree that this is not a true beta, but they had little choice but to call it such at the time. That's all and well, but players should be aware of this uncommon definition of "beta" before they purchase.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1840583:date=Apr 11 2011, 05:39 PM:name=SatanLovesYOu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SatanLovesYOu @ Apr 11 2011, 05:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone is expecting to play a game....not TEST it...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That I disagree with. I think it's pretty clear even with a "beta" tag that you are a tester, as that's what alpha/beta TESTING is. You will not be able to "play" the game and not test it until it is released. I'm glad to help test the game, but I think other potential buyers should be aware that NS2 is not feature complete, as the beta tag would imply.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1840581:date=Apr 11 2011, 04:12 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Apr 11 2011, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This has been debated to death, but the most common accepted definition of a beta release is "feature complete". This is what most people expect...not because they are spoiled, but because that is the definition of the term "beta". This has no legal binding, of course, and UWE can define it however they choose, which they have done, but many players are not aware that NS2 beta does not mean feature complete as the term implies. And if you read any of UWE's comments following the beta release, you will see that they agree that this is not a true beta, but they had little choice but to call it such at the time. That's all and well, but players should be aware of this uncommon definition of "beta" before they purchase.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd add (mostly) stable to feature-complete. That's the biggest difference in definition I've seen between an alpha and beta build of any software.
I asked for a refun with this form and <!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->it was the worst rickroll ever<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. Thanks UWE.
<!--quoteo(post=1840597:date=Apr 11 2011, 09:51 PM:name=knifefan.nl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (knifefan.nl @ Apr 11 2011, 09:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I asked for a refun with this form and <!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->it was the worst rickroll ever<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. Thanks UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but too bad your rick roll wasn't, for I HAVE ADBLOCK. take THAT!
Comments
Although the information is out there, it's their for the user to plainly see. The product is advertised as unfinished. The question is not about how playable or laggy the game is etc. that's irrelevant. It's as advertised, unfinished with lots of information including videos from NS2HD which can be found on the product creators website.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that information plainly to see?
If I look at the frontpage, where the primary preorder-button is located, all I'm seeing is a link to NS2HD and a video of NS2HD, followed by change-logs which don't tell a lot of the current game-experience. Side-tracking to NS2HD for a moment, I think I've been over this quite thoroughly a while back, namely that it's quite misleading at this point. The videos are smoother than what you're getting ingame frankly (partially due to YouTube's interpolation magic I'd reckon), and the more serious issues tend to be played down (to-desktop crashes for example you won't be seeing in those videos, obviously not something you'd make a video of, but it just goes to show).
The F.A.Q STILL says "A 1.2 GHz Processor, 256MB RAM", even though it's been updated last november and it was quite clear that even with the most optimistic outlook those weren't reasonable system requirements. The forum is the place to be to get any real information regarding the state of things, but it's a jungle in here, and not exactly the friendliest of places this thread yet again illustrates.
I'm not accusing UWE of deliberate misinformation, but the ongoing poor communication to customers is what keeps leading to these kinds of threads. It's not normal to have to pick through the forum for posts of UWE-associates to get any clear-cut information regarding the game...
Always check the front page of a website for a help link , u will usually get some info about contacting support.
Also, the total disrespect towards anyone thinking about a refund is a pretty good summary of these forums these days. Even if it's not nice for UWE, being a rapid fanboy is just going to push NS2 community further into a point where only a handful people actively care about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't say it's specific to UWE, but in general, you wouldn't want to blindly purchase a product, then decide "meh, it's too early, I want my money back for now". If you look at the main page news, the first video pretty much shows how unfinished the game is (an untextured box, a stuck marine, etc). The regular changelogs usually have a handful of entries starting with "bug fixed", and of course the Progress page is pretty explicit.
I don't think UWE would be to blame for an uninformed purchase. Maybe this time you can get a refund, but eventually, you will find a product you can't turn back (I'm thinking about stuff like clothing or other items that can't be returned for hygiene reasons) and regret simply not taking a bit more time to figure out whether you should have bought the product in the first place.
I pre-ordered the game as an investment in NS2 and to show my appreciation for NS1. No, I'm not mentally defective, just (thankfully) different than you.
+1 to have this thread locked.
I don't think UWE would be to blame for an uninformed purchase. Maybe this time you can get a refund, but eventually, you will find a product you can't turn back (I'm thinking about stuff like clothing or other items that can't be returned for hygiene reasons) and regret simply not taking a bit more time to figure out whether you should have bought the product in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a bit of a tricky thing these days, I think. For anyone following NS2 development closely it's pretty obvious how the things are, but I'm not sure how well it translates to people with varying levels of knowledge and understanding of game development and such.
For example the beta definition seems to be a totally different depending on who you ask. The big companies do things their way and UWE seems to do it their way. The development pace of an indie team is also pretty much anyone's guess. Things like progress page can even be quite misleading, since the specialized UWE emplyees work on different areas of game.
Obviously people should be careful where they put their money and you can't blame anyone else for making a bad purchase in general, but I think preorders like this are still very likely to cause misunderstood purchases and such. At that point I think the refunds seem like a reasonable approach. It's still good that people encouraged to make preorders and fund the game instead of being awfully careful not to fall for some incomplete product. Purely rationally thinking you should always only purchase the complete product, but that's probably a mindset most indie developers would like to avoid.
All in all, I've got quite a lot of understanding for both sides of this one. I personally favour pretty liberal refunds considering all the chaos and potential misconceptions both in the industry in general and to some extend in the NS2 development itself. That way they can clearly stick away from the gray area where they'd benefit from misleading the customers.
Actually you preorder the game now to recieve a full game later, just like any other preorder, but as a bonus you can also play the game in it's current state.
But btt..
Email to store@unknownworlds.com and ask there.
Might take a few days for a response.
I'm under no illusion that yes, the system requirements page needs an update, yes the information is not as clear as possible. Although from a consumer focus point of view the information you need is simply spending 20-30 minutes reviewing the latest updates of the UWE blog.
I don't know how some people live in the world with the way they make their choices, although when buying a computer game as an example, I'll review several sources of information and even talk to those that may already be or are planning to play it. I do the same with things such as buying a television, a music album, a mobile phone, a book, a graphics card, heck, even things such as buying suits and shoes I go with recommended brands by consumers, friends and critics.
Unfortunately the consumer has to take the flack here and from now on in, you live in a world of choice and information rich media. And particularly a video game if you don't read reviews, previews, the full extent of information on the developers site or even dabble in the games forums in the slightest, you really are at fault for a "bad purchase" on your behalf as at the end of the day, no one forced you to buy the product, you did that of your own free will and there is all that information there.
It's not about me being a fanboy here, in fact if you ask the development team and in particular Cory *(edit: who's even given me a bit of a telling off for being a bit of a moron to be honest) who makes a lot of responses on the forums, I've been for and against things in the past and not always agree'd with some of the direction etc. Although I'll stand by them with not wanting to issue refunds to people who quickly want one or who have used the product for a fair while and want one. The focus should be on a business being a business, the consumer is at the end of the day responsible. The only thing that I see that may be needed is a clear refund or no-refund policy advertised within a disclaimer when buying, apart from that, from my own perspective, common sense says, do your research first, I always do.
In our defense, there should be a known risk in buying into a game that has not been officially released, or reviewed by the gaming press. We have been purposely avoiding trying to get the game advertised in a more wide spread fashion as we know its not ready yet, and expect that the pre-orders would come from people who are more interested in being involved and influential in the ground level development of a game, then just playing a finished product. Its definitely a different model from most games, so its understandable that it can be confusing. Whats different is that, when you typically pre-order a game from another company, you don't get instant access to their current development version as you do with NS2, even though they are often in a buggy and unfinished state as well when their pre-orders start.
We are not trying to deceive people in any way, but there simply is no good way to communicate the situation to customers who are looking into buying the game. On the buy page it says "The beta is not fully optimized so a more powerful system is recommended". Beyond that, we aren't going to be putting up big banners everywhere saying "Game is not optimized and unfinished, don't buy yet!" because there are still plenty of people who do buy who can run it reasonably well, and end up having some fun with it and enjoying an early look into what NS2 is going to become. And we are also confident that the game, in its final form is going to be fun, optimized, and feature complete by the time its officially released.
So, in the meantime, we will continue to give refunds, and hope that those people will come back when the game is done and buy it again.
--Cory
I am in a constant tease being able to play the game online and have a decent experience (especially commanding, minus macs/drifters crashing into doors). There are some design decisions I'm iffy about however with everything changing so frequently I'm having fun watching things progress (although there has been a slowdown as of the past month or so.. maybe something big coming our way?). I have easily invested 100+ hours into a map and am coming up to the point where I would like to start testing but see no point in doing so until less laggy meaningful games can be played. I also feel its tough to make map balance changes until tier 3 is in. It will be a completely different game when hitting max tech means turtling for the opponent won't be nearly as effective.
This all said I hope we get some new content or at least a little performance boost soon. I don't regret my decision to purchase and have even donated another $20 since, but with the time invested it would be a shame to see people losing interest from a lack of noticeable progress. The past couple patches have definitely made improvements, but they are only clear to those who have followed each patch closely. Hopefully tomorrow brings a new patch with the lua bind improvements. If game play was smoother I could definitely see more full servers all day long even with unrefined balance.
I completely understand why UWE had to call it "beta" due to financial considerations, but they really need to explain it a bit more on the purchase page so as to not appear to deceive players. I'm not complaining about the state of the game at all. I understand the state of the game and what UWE is doing and am proud of my purchase almost 2 years ago, but they need to explain this better to the rest of the world whose definition of "beta" is quite different.
[] donations are ostensibly out of good will, to help the cause
[][] but like donations to non-for-profits a lot of the people's main reason for the swag
[][][] (like brand labeled t-shirt)
[][] (or a nifty in-game icon)
[] (or black armor)
<!--quoteo(post=1840553:date=Apr 11 2011, 02:21 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Apr 11 2011, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have been purposely avoiding trying to get the game advertised in a more wide spread fashion as we know its not ready yet, and expect that the pre-orders would come from people who are more interested in being involved and influential in the ground level development of a game, then just playing a finished product.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i pre-ordered the alpha version cause i wanted to opt-in to exclusive jobs that the playtesters of NS1 used to have
i wanted to be part of it from the start, have a potential influence on balance changes etc
i gotta say when people say "paid $20 extra for ur black armor to show off ur big e-peen" i resent that
cause i know the contempt for status signifiers that people pay for, and i prefer not to come off like that
i remember the IRC release parties of point versions of NS, the vitality of the community reaching a popularity peak
cool idea
turns out the alpha was a cluster F and the beta is mostly empty
lesson learned?
And it is great that you do, it is things like this, in my mind, that help distinguish UWE as a good company and one worth supporting.
you wanna know whats "facepalm"?
1. I said waning
2. ns2 isnt out yet in stores so thats hardly a valid comparison..
/facepalm
Thats because people get spoiled with the term BETA. What we're seeing now is certainly a BETA. But larger companies with publishers backing them with millions of dollars will have the game polished up the the point of completion and then release a "BETA" to build hype and get word of mouth moving. Most "BETAS" only last around 2 weeks to a month now because of this and it's more of a stress test then a BETA.
Most BETA builds also are still developer exclusive. Meaning only the developers are testing ect... UWE has just been gracious enough to a community that has supported them through thick and thin. Without this community UWE would not exist. This was a gift to the community by allowing us to play the game during this stage of BETA for all the support over the past 10 years.
It's people who don't do their research or know the facts before clicking that purchase button who are asking for a refund. Their expectations of the game were clearly to high for a game that is still in BETA. Again reiterating on my point that people are spoiled with the term BETA from the larger companies that have teams of 50-100 people with a high budget to spend and release a complete version of the game as "BETA" as a marketing strategy.
This has been debated to death, but the most common accepted definition of a beta release is "feature complete". This is what most people expect...not because they are spoiled, but because that is the definition of the term "beta". This has no legal binding, of course, and UWE can define it however they choose, which they have done, but many players are not aware that NS2 beta does not mean feature complete as the term implies. And if you read any of UWE's comments following the beta release, you will see that they agree that this is not a true beta, but they had little choice but to call it such at the time. That's all and well, but players should be aware of this uncommon definition of "beta" before they purchase.
That I disagree with. I think it's pretty clear even with a "beta" tag that you are a tester, as that's what alpha/beta TESTING is. You will not be able to "play" the game and not test it until it is released. I'm glad to help test the game, but I think other potential buyers should be aware that NS2 is not feature complete, as the beta tag would imply.
I'd add (mostly) stable to feature-complete. That's the biggest difference in definition I've seen between an alpha and beta build of any software.
but too bad your rick roll wasn't, for I HAVE ADBLOCK. take THAT!
LOL sometimes it is not a Pain in the A** to have limited youtube Videos.