What is the difference between ns1 maps and ns2 maps i cant tell
Nex Carnifex
Join Date: 2011-01-06 Member: 76366Members
Join Date: 2011-01-06 Member: 76366Members
But it's definitly there. When you walked through an ms1 map it felt dark, wet, hostile and likeyou were being watched. Like you needed a commander wachimg over you and a team around you or you'd be done. And they felt vast and with suprises around every corner and hiding places in every room. But ns2 maps just seem smaller and less real, more happy or call of duttyy. Does anyone else get that? I felt I needed a guide to get around the old maps but now it seems like more spporry like halo where you need to know every angle and stuff sometimes not in a good way though. It takes away the realism I felt in the original. Sorry about the typing im using a phone.
Comments
1. Rockdown = test map, not going to be released
2. Tram = smallest release map, is constantly being tweaked
3. Junction = no one plays it because its unplayable (and no servers run it)
I wouldn't take the quality of the current map selection as the intended final product. UWE has already promised several new bigger and better maps as part of the final release.
Eclipse, veil?
I'd say bast, lost, nothing are about the same as rockdown and only slightly darker than tram.
I do kind of miss water and related effects (dripping pipes...) though.
Do you judge the state of the maps and the 'feel' of the maps before the game is feature complete. DI will have a gigantic effect on the feel of the maps and also the atmosphere of the game.
New features will come out for the map editor don't worry about that.
Also, the detail of the maps will still allow your 'Suprises around every corner' and such.
For now it is best just to play and find bugs so they can get on with the awesome features and great map atmosphere.
P.S Too many people keep on comparing NS2 to NS1. I think this is stupid because NS1 is a complete game/mod whereas NS2 doesn't even have a completed engine to work from at the start of this game anyway (NS1 had the completed engine, the half life engine)
Do you judge the state of the maps and the 'feel' of the maps before the game is feature complete. DI will have a gigantic effect on the feel of the maps and also the atmosphere of the game.
New features will come out for the map editor don't worry about that.
Also, the detail of the maps will still allow your 'Suprises around every corner' and such.
For now it is best just to play and find bugs so they can get on with the awesome features and great map atmosphere.
P.S Too many people keep on comparing NS2 to NS1. I think this is stupid because NS1 is a complete game/mod whereas NS2 doesn't even have a completed engine to work from at the start of this game anyway (NS1 had the completed engine, the half life engine)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Papayas : It is healthy to compare to NS1 - It helps to look what is missing (in general) not the specifics. Ask yourself this, if NS2 is going to be worst than NS1 but on better graphics why play it?
People are not looking for realistic godly graphics (look at angry birds it generates 8million dollars a month). Gameplay is more important to win players. we should look what in NS1 that is good in terms of gameplay.
This said, the maps feel different mainly because of the performance issues leading to a kind of non-serious gameplay. That isn't to say there aren't serious games being played, but it is much harder when you aren't having a smooth experience to take what's going on seriously. I'm sure there's other reasons too but this is one of the biggest differences for me at least.
I think the point is your are comparing a finished product (NS1) to an unfinished one (NS2). NS2 will pretty much be inferior by definition because its missing many of the final features intended to make it a better game than NS1.
I meant:
People shouldn't compare NS1 to NS2 in a way to show NS2 in a negative way.
Some people are comparing NS2 to NS1 and saying that NS2 is crap compared to NS1 as NS1 is smoother and everything but NS2.
I didn't mean:
People shouldn't compare NS1 to NS2 so NS2 is the same as NS1 but with better graphics. You guys basically misunderstood what I was saying.
It is understandable though because I didn't make myself clear about what side I am on.
For example, the next map set for release, Mineshaft, will feel quite different from Tram, both in scale, visuals, lighting, and gameplay. Its much larger, has water effects such as dripping water and waterfalls, and some very organic looking cave areas.
--Cory
I saw that you were viewing this page.
Now for actually taking about maps :P
Thanks for that comment about the maps, I would love to see some more concept art* or maybe a little 'teaser' about this "mineshaft" map.
1 question though:
Is the "Mineshaft" currently in production or are you going to work on it in the future?
Edit: *
Wut? Yes it's missing features now, that's pretty obvious. Are you claiming because the game is incomplete we can't compare certain near complete features and debate the direction their development goes in? We might as well not test the game in that case.
But also keep in mind with NS1 the maps lighting and alien-ness were static props.
NS2 gives the ability for any area to appear alien through the use of dynamic lighting and infestation.
They are going to make it so any room can be lighted and clean or dreary and creepy.
So focus on the other aspects of NS1 maps you liked...that you would like to see
Things like:
Learnability - How does the map rooms stand out so someone running through it distinguishes one room from the next and how they connect.
(I don't know if this is a word but it is something that is important.)
Flow - How easy is it to traverse the map.
Offensive Points - Mappers usually design certain areas specific for fighting...What are these points? Can they be improved?
Defensive Points - Mappers usually design certain areas specific for holding. Like a double resource node room.
So tram has some decent learnability the rooms are all pretty distinct in shape and feel.
The recent addition of props and trash on the tram track helps me get my orientation more quickly.
The room with the globe is instantly recognizable, but has so many small walls I find it hard to defend as a skulk or a marine.
I like how the west feels more open than east side of the map.
I do have some trouble traveling as an alien alot of paths that seem obvious are not...this is especially frustrating when navigating to a dieing hive.
Perhaps yes. The developers seem to make changes to features on the fly in relation to heated discussions on the board; they should maybe just ignore them and keep on trucking, adding features (even if broken), then coming back and making necessary changes. The fact is, though, they don't just ignore it, so we'll never see what their original plan was to be, which may in fact be better because everything is considered with respect to everything else. So because they don't ignore it, maybe we shouldn't compare certain <strike>near</strike> <b>in</b>complete features and debate the direction their development goes in.
Is the "Mineshaft" currently in production or are you going to work on it in the future?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mineshaft is pretty much ready for release, we are just waiting on overall game performance improvements and a few other technical items.
<!--quoteo(post=1838718:date=Mar 25 2011, 12:57 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 25 2011, 12:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I always assumed we should be making rooms and hallways slightly larger than before in height too, as I'd assume infestation would be marine head height.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Infestation height shouldn't really affect room size. Mainly the height scale of hallways and rooms is larger in NS2 to accommodate the larger Onos (and Exosuit).
--Cory
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sois the invisable onos the correct proportion hight wise at this time?
We really don't. We listen to feedback, but the alterations we make are based on what we think is a good idea (or what we want to try out), not kneejerk reactions.
I played NS1 when I was comparatively new to gaming, and everything was magical and amazing and mysterious.
I'm playing NS2 at the end of a games development degree. So it isn't any of those, still looks very nice though, the quality of the art and the general feel of the renderer is definitely enjoyable.
Given the mainstreaming of many aspects of game development over the past decade, with gamers being far more aware of how games are built and the different options available to developers, and much more emphasis placed on the technical side of games, I imagine this is the case for most people to a degree, the fact that most people probably played NS1 when they were 15 (and subsequently pretty dumb) and those same people are now bitter 20somethings having to deal with the unpleasantness of real life and probably finding that games simply aren't being made for them any more, but being unwilling or unable to recognise this and wondering why all games nowadays suck and so on, that also doesn't help NS2 very much when compared to NS1.
TLDR, all the NS1 people are miserable old buggers now and so NS2 doesn't seem as good as the good old days.
The far from complete ones yes, but I wasn't talking about far from complete features, I was talking about near complete ones (which conveniently both fall into the category of incomplete but signify much different levels of feature-completeness). This thread in itself is mainly about tram vs (the much diverse) ns1 maps, and the <i>majority</i> of tram is complete, therefor near complete and at a point where look and feel <i>will</i> start to be discussed. Sure things can change between patches but in ns1 there were maps which were always considered 'complete' but still changed every new version (I found the need to add/remove certain routes in nancy and adjust lighting based off constructive feedback and might not have without, but agree the changes were for the better).
If you take on thousands of people to playtest a game and specifically ask for feedback then that is exactly what you are going to get and many of these people won't have any clue what is complete, near complete, or far from it since the content in this game can fall into any of those categories right now. Let's have a little confidence in the devs' ability to filter through and decide what is and isn't an actual problem out of the feedback they requested themselves.
You can understand why it would seem that way to me though?
@Lazer: That's fine, but I was talking on a much broader scale.
Maybe sum it up with familiar but unknown, meaning nearly the same gameplay scenario in a better detailed level.
Well there's only one official map released so far, tram, and that's said to be one of the smallest ones NS2 will have.
1) First of all - FOV. NS2 uses modern narrowed field of view, which makes things look more realistic but lets you see less at the same time, and makes game appear more slow-paced. In old half-life engine with fov 90 and higher even simple walking seemed blazing fast
2) Diverseness of map features. In NS2 all we have now are corridords, corridors and corridors. Even rooms look like small corridor extensions. NS1 had large rooms, height variety (ladders, bridges, balconies), vents marines could crawl in, interactive elements (switchable doors, rotary doors, elevators - which were non-generic by the way i.e. you designed them specifically for the map), water and general vastness.
3) Freedom of movement. For the sake of realism (and probably collision-wise) in NS2 you can't jump on everything you see or use anything as an actual defense or cover. Props are mostly decoration and gameplay will be speed-oriented I believe
4) Streamlining. Maps are very carefully thought out now, no questionable balance features are allowed and non-crucial parst are simply dropped. Therefore they are less realistic, let's say movie-like, and are more of a decorated game-board with predermined paths from point A to point B. Personally I don't care about balance at all. Losing motivates you to seek new strategies :)
Please not this post IS NOT A RANT. ;)
Only thing I could remotely link to major public feedback is the taser. That was pretty funny.
1) First of all - FOV. NS2 uses modern narrowed field of view, which makes things look more realistic but lets you see less at the same time, and makes game appear more slow-paced. In old half-life engine with fov 90 and higher even simple walking seemed blazing fast<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 uses a FOV of 90, which I'm pretty sure was the same thing in NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=1838890:date=Mar 26 2011, 02:27 PM:name=rein4ce)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rein4ce @ Mar 26 2011, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) Diverseness of map features. In NS2 all we have now are corridords, corridors and corridors. Even rooms look like small corridor extensions. NS1 had large rooms, height variety (ladders, bridges, balconies), vents marines could crawl in, interactive elements (switchable doors, rotary doors, elevators - which were non-generic by the way i.e. you designed them specifically for the map), water and general vastness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, and would actually say the opposite is true, unless you are merely looking at Rockdown, which is not an official release map. In NS1 many maps were made up of a collection of corridors, and many of the rooms looked like small corridor extensions, due to a lack of unique landmark props. We specifically went out of our way to make NS2 maps more room based, and this can be seen in Tram. There are large warehouse rooms, tram repair rooms, a server room, a hologram room, etc.
We also have ladders in NS2, but at the moment they have been disabled, while some programming bugs are sorted out. Tram is a relatively flat map, due to the tunnel running through it, but our other maps will have more height variation, with bridges and balconies. In NS2 we have interactive doors that can be locked by the commander, and will eventually be able to be welded and also smashed open by the Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=1838890:date=Mar 26 2011, 02:27 PM:name=rein4ce)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rein4ce @ Mar 26 2011, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) Freedom of movement. For the sake of realism (and probably collision-wise) in NS2 you can't jump on everything you see or use anything as an actual defense or cover. Props are mostly decoration and gameplay will be speed-oriented I believe<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am confused by exactly what you mean by this statement. As far as I know you can still jump on most of the props (railings, crates, tram cars, etc.) and use them for cover.
<!--quoteo(post=1838890:date=Mar 26 2011, 02:27 PM:name=rein4ce)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rein4ce @ Mar 26 2011, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) Streamlining. Maps are very carefully thought out now, no questionable balance features are allowed and non-crucial parst are simply dropped. Therefore they are less realistic, let's say movie-like, and are more of a decorated game-board with predermined paths from point A to point B. Personally I don't care about balance at all. Losing motivates you to seek new strategies :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unbalanced maps with lots of extraneous areas that aren't important for gameplay doesn't make a map more realistic and movie-like. We do try to put a lot of time into the balance and flow of a map, when designing them, as we've learned from NS1 that, while some of the maps looked beautiful, it was the maps with the best gameplay that were played the most, not necessarily the ones with the best visuals.
We understand that its a bit hard to judge NS2 maps right now, just from Tram and Rockdown, but we are working on getting a new official map into your hands, soon, and that may have an impact on your overall view of NS2 maps.
--Cory
You've gone and nicked my observation!
<!--QuoteBegin-'Squeal_Like_A_Pig'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Squeal_Like_A_Pig')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS2 uses a FOV of 90, which I'm pretty sure was the same thing in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Difference might be that 4:3 CRTs were fashion back in the early NS days. I've went ahead and put in a feature for GmOvrmind to permanently up the FOV for every class in NS2, and it really does make the game <u>feel</u> faster.
<!--QuoteBegin-'Squeal_Like_A_Pig'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Squeal_Like_A_Pig')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree, and would actually say the opposite is true, unless you are merely looking at Rockdown, which is not an official release map. In NS1 many maps were made up of a collection of corridors, and many of the rooms looked like small corridor extensions, due to a lack of unique landmark props. We specifically went out of our way to make NS2 maps more room based, and this can be seen in Tram. There are large warehouse rooms, tram repair rooms, a server room, a hologram room, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd just like to say: ns_nothing. Huge hallways! Huge hive-room(s)! Big clumsy elevators that take hours to move!
<!--QuoteBegin-'Squeal_Like_A_Pig'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Squeal_Like_A_Pig')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am confused by exactly what you mean by this statement. As far as I know you can still jump on most of the props (railings, crates, tram cars, etc.) and use them for cover.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main issue I have with this, is that it's not always clear when you can or can't jump over something. Railings in particular. Sometimes you can jump over them JUST, but often you can't, and get eaten by skulks. It'd be nice if it were obvious at first glance when something is or isn't surmountable.