Star Wars - The Old Republic
jamieshepherd
Join Date: 2009-09-04 Member: 68693Members
Join Date: 2009-09-04 Member: 68693Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Beta Screenshots & EU Guild News</div>So for any Star Wars fans out there, there has been a bit of news recently as the main site has released the ability to register your guild pre-launch, and there's already a lot of interest in end game raiding and such for when the game is finally released. I've actually been lucky enough to beta test a small portion of the game last year and thought I'd share some screenshots and answer any questions as far as my experience was concerned. Overall I was really impressed with the game having played a number of MMOs over the years, especially in it's slightly buggy beta state.
For any Europeans however, we're in the process of forming a hardcore PvE-orientated guild looking to compete for endgame content. You can find more about that on our mini guild page on the following links:
<a href="http://www.swtor.com/guilds/5632/hate" target="_blank">http://www.swtor.com/guilds/5632/hate</a> and a small forum post regarding guild applications <a href="http://www.swtor.com/guilds/5632/hate/public-forum/41305" target="_blank">http://www.swtor.com/guilds/5632/hate/public-forum/41305</a>
As for beta screenshots, these are all the ones I have so far (taken by myself):
<img src="http://www.desiupload.com/out.php/i586715_kerrigan.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.desiupload.com/out.php/i586842_sneakpeak.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.gamebirthday.com/dino/swtor/sw01.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.gamebirthday.com/dino/swtor/sw02.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.gamebirthday.com/dino/swtor/sw03.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.gamebirthday.com/dino/swtor/sw04.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.gamebirthday.com/dino/swtor/sw05.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
For any Europeans however, we're in the process of forming a hardcore PvE-orientated guild looking to compete for endgame content. You can find more about that on our mini guild page on the following links:
<a href="http://www.swtor.com/guilds/5632/hate" target="_blank">http://www.swtor.com/guilds/5632/hate</a> and a small forum post regarding guild applications <a href="http://www.swtor.com/guilds/5632/hate/public-forum/41305" target="_blank">http://www.swtor.com/guilds/5632/hate/public-forum/41305</a>
As for beta screenshots, these are all the ones I have so far (taken by myself):
<img src="http://www.desiupload.com/out.php/i586715_kerrigan.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.desiupload.com/out.php/i586842_sneakpeak.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.gamebirthday.com/dino/swtor/sw01.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.gamebirthday.com/dino/swtor/sw02.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.gamebirthday.com/dino/swtor/sw03.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.gamebirthday.com/dino/swtor/sw04.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.gamebirthday.com/dino/swtor/sw05.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Comments
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[...]
So what did I think of my hour of hands-on with SWTOR? <b>BioWare isn't trying to reinvent the MMORPG wheel with this one.</b> The elevated storylines, voice work, and most importantly, the Star Wars setting, are what set this one apart. For someone like me that doesn't play MMOs much, that's just fine. And yes, as a Han Solo Special Edition Star Wars Adidas sneaker wearing fanboy, The Old Republic could be the MMO that finally breaks me. <b>But I can also see how a veteran MMO player might be disappointed -- especially with all the build-up -- that SWTOR isn't a genre changer.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><a href="http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/bioware-mmo-project/1155271p1.html" target="_blank">Source.</a>
Emphasis by me, because that's what stuck out. Anything to add, or is that pretty much right on the money?
Also I *still* can not get over the "lightsaber hits, does damage" idea rather than "lightsaber hits, person sliced in half". It bugs me with swords too, but to a lesser extent because swords are somewhat-sharp metal and not a beam of plasma/whatever that can cut through anything.
Also I *still* can not get over the "lightsaber hits, does damage" idea rather than "lightsaber hits, person sliced in half". It bugs me with swords too, but to a lesser extent because swords are somewhat-sharp metal and not a beam of plasma/whatever that can cut through anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember that passage from Ep. 1 where a young Obi-Wan (or was it his master?) attempts to cut through an armoured bulkhead with his lightsaber. As far as I understand, he fails not because it's an <i>armoured bulkhead</i>, but because it's thicker than his lightsaber is long (so he can't just cut a hole in it) and he doesn't have time to <i>melt it into slag.</i>
It shouldn't bother you so much with regular swords. Although gruesome mutilation and fatal injuries are easy to achieve, I seem to remember videos with ballistic gel that show that chopping limbs off isn't easy, and that cutting a torso in half is borderline impossible. And that's solid ballistic gel - doesn't even take bones into account. But a lightsaber ostensibly cuts through metal as easily as through butter. Flesh shouldn't hinder it.
If they have lightsabres actually coming into contact with people, aliens, objects, monsters, whatever and NOT killing them at that point then you might as well just bin the game now.
Oh no our all being daft. We have been proper burned.
NeonSpyder, that would've been a good idea. Hell, you could even replace "hitpoints" with, I dunno, "focus" for jedis. Your focus allows you to keep deflecting blaster bolts and lightsaber strikes. Run out of focus and you get shot/slashed, and that's it for you. It's all just cosmetic differences, but it would make a huge difference in giving the game a more Star Wars feel.
Though there's still going to be a remaining issue, namely that, realistically, a jedi should be able to pretty much instakill anyone not using a lightsaber in melee. I mean, it's not like they can block the attacks. I guess there's a point there: If you want to make a "realistic" Star Wars game, the jedi class will be overpowered and there'll be no point in playing anything else. So you might as well forget about it and relegate lightsabers to the "not all that deadly really" role they have here.
As for lightsabers not instakilling things, it's a pretty retarded thing to say as it wouldn't be much fun if that were case. Playing as a bounty hunter or imperial agent for example is really fun and doesn't make you feel any less important or heroic than if you played a Jedi or Sith, which is what this game is all about. Bounty hunter in particular has some really cool moves that make you feel like the don, and the cover system that the Imperial Agent and Smuggler class uses is really intuitive and can see it being one of the most fun aspects of combat for those classes..
As for lightsabers not instakilling things, it's a pretty retarded thing to say as it wouldn't be much fun if that were case. Playing as a bounty hunter or imperial agent for example is really fun and doesn't make you feel any less important or heroic than if you played a Jedi or Sith, which is what this game is all about. Bounty hunter in particular has some really cool moves that make you feel like the don, and the cover system that the Imperial Agent and Smuggler class uses is really intuitive and can see it being one of the most fun aspects of combat for those classes..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But does the lightsabre visually impact people's bodies and <i>not</i> kill them at that point?
If it visually misses people but still does damage, then that's fine. But if somebody gets slapped with a lightsabre and that's not the finishing move... well, it's no good.
Lets look at the presented alternatives.
Focus - So, some random guy gets hit 20 times with a blaster and is fine but a jedi gets hit once and crumples ? Thats hardly intuitive or consistent.
Not hitting stuff doing damage - Let me repeat that. NOT HITTING STUFF DOES DAMAGE. Again, not intuitive or consistent.
It pretty much comes down to either jedi are NPCs and can be gods incarnate swatting people left, right and centre or they're PCs and you get lightsaber-lite mechanics with respect to movie/book canon. All things considered, i'll take jedi PCs.
I await the 'I saw a lightsaber clipping through scenery/people/anything and it didn't cut it in half' rant with baited breath :P
Seriously though, I don't worry about arbitary threat/aggro mechanics nor how I talk to someone via whispers whos on a different continent/planet/whatever or why I can't talk to alliance as horde and vice versa. Theres lots of suspension of disbelief going on in any MMO, i'm sure you can deal with lightsabers not cutting through anything like the proverbial hot knife through butter too.
If it bugs you too much on principle too even entertain playing it, thats fine and entirely your pregorative, but at least understand the design reasons as to why its that way.
So why does World of Star Wars have to make a choice between proper lightsabers and fun? The answer is that it doesn't, because that's a false dichotomy. I don't mind necessary concessions for the sake of fun. I mind unnecessary concessions. And this is one. And considering that "Star Wars" might as well be called "stories about Jedis" because they're the focus of the entire franchise, getting them right should've been a higher priority than it apparently was.
Edit: Wait, there's more:
<!--quoteo(post=1837367:date=Mar 16 2011, 01:55 PM:name=Ph0enix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ph0enix @ Mar 16 2011, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Focus - So, some random guy gets hit 20 times with a blaster and is fine but a jedi gets hit once and crumples ? Thats hardly intuitive or consistent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doable. There are four classes, right? Two jedis, a trooper and a smuggler. Jedis don't wear armour, because they use their lightsaber to deflect any attack. The trooper DOES wear armour, so you can expect him to absorb some gunfire before he goes down. The smuggler's sort of the gunslinger archetype, right? Takes cover or dodges attacks. I don't see how any of that can't be adopted if they WANT to have some distinct flavour to set them apart from WoW. If there's a will, there's a way. Hell, I've come up with several half-assed ideas over the course of a few minutes of brainstorming. I'm sure a game designer who does this stuff for a living all day long could come up with something full-assed if he wanted to.
<!--quoteo(post=1837367:date=Mar 16 2011, 01:55 PM:name=Ph0enix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ph0enix @ Mar 16 2011, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not hitting stuff doing damage - Let me repeat that. NOT HITTING STUFF DOES DAMAGE. Again, not intuitive or consistent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure you've played some modern MMOs. Look at WoW: It is entirely possible for two melee combatants to stand at the furthest limit of their melee range and duel each other. At this point, their weapons often aren't even long enough to reach each other - <b>every single swing will hit thin air and nothing else.</b> And nobody really complains all that much, because we see the numbers floating above our opponents' heads. We know the numbers mean that we're doing damage, whether our sword's 3D model intersects their character's 3D model or not.
That's a minor point of suspension of disbelief. We're used to that one. We've seen it with melee weapons in first-person-shooters too. So why not make USE of it? Why not EXPLOIT the fact that most attacks that hit do not actually visually connect with the target and use it to make the game MORE believable?
I get your point about melee range in MMOs which is principaly to account for lag so you can actually hit stuff. If your bringing that up its a wash though.
If your perfectly comfortable with dealing damage without your weapon model ever intersecting your target, a delibrate design decision at odds with, well, reality, then you must be perfectly comfortable with lightsabers not intersecting targets/scenery/anything and not slicing it in half, at odds with established movie/book canon.
Theres also a difference between a engine limatation and intentionally designing it so when your stationary and your target is stationary, you magically waft your lightsaber around your target and yet deal damage before with the last hit magically deciding to poke them in the head and they fall over. The fact that its not even gonna work because of neither of you are always going to be stationary also makes it a bit duff.
Essentially, my opinion is the design 'cost' of maing lightsabers 'realistic' simply isn't worth it and is impractical.
PS. I'm pretty sure jedi can parry blaster bolts/lightsabers FWIW, seen it in videos IIRC.
Why must I? Why are the only options "accept no concessions on behalf of gameplay" or "accept all concessions?" False dichotomy. I have no (noteworthy) issue with lightsabers occasionally clipping through scenery. Scenery clipping happens in virtually every game. Rarely does it happen enough to be jarring or immersion-destroying. Sure, if they could eliminate that, that'd be ace. But if not, no biggie. It's mainly something that happens when you run face-first into walls, and if you do that you're probably not currently immersing yourself in the game anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1837398:date=Mar 16 2011, 08:37 PM:name=Ph0enix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ph0enix @ Mar 16 2011, 08:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837398"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Theres also a difference between a engine limatation and intentionally designing it so when your stationary and your target is stationary, you magically waft your lightsaber around your target and yet deal damage before with the last hit magically deciding to poke them in the head and they fall over. The fact that its not even gonna work because of neither of you are always going to be stationary also makes it a bit duff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that's how lightsaber duels look! In the movies, lightsaber duels consist of lots and lots and lots of dodging and blocking and very little hitting, because hitting leads to mutilation or death. A successful hit could still be shown as your opponent blocking your attack with his lightsaber.
The Assassin's Creed games do that. You swing your sword, your opponent brings his sword up to block, they smash together with a distinctive "clank" and your opponent loses health - in contrast with ACTUALLY blocked attacks where your opponent deflects your strike away with his weapon. To anyone who has played the game for only a few minutes, it is immediately apparent which attacks count as hits (and do damage) and which attacks have been successfully blocked by the opponent - even though in neither case, sword hits flesh. Even an outside observer who has never played the game should be able to tell who has the upper hand in a fight: The guy who strings together multiple attacks and deflects his opponent's attacks away with loose, flowing movements, or the guy who has his attacks deflected like that and who clumsily blocks incoming attacks with waning brute force.
This game looks dumb.
You can play this fun game and overlook the fact that your lightsaber didn't cut the guy who's spent 2 years on his character in half and now forced him to make a new character because if he didn't, that wouldn't be realistic, right? Or you can have your realistic version, which I would bet wouldn't sell very many copies..
Stupid debate is stupid.
<!--quoteo(post=1837489:date=Mar 17 2011, 03:37 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Mar 17 2011, 03:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wasn't this the biggest budget video game of all time? should be prettier than those screen shots.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the main problems a lot of MMOs have had is the advancement in graphics. The reason WoW employs the cartoony style is because it has a timeless feel, and therefore they don't have to constantly evolve the world around them to suit new graphics technologies. The slightly cartoony but higher polygon than WoW look I really like to be honest, wait until you see some of the environments like experiencing Hutta for the first time, you'll be a little more impressed then I expect.
It stupid to have a lightsaber hit a small dog eight times before it dies. I would rather see my attack blocked or dodged than have a lightsaber hit with no reaction from the enemy.
Lame.
/edit:
Also, one of the most fun games I've ever played is <a href="http://www.moviebattles.com/" target="_blank">Movie Battles II</a> (a JKA mod). There are many classes one of which is jedi/sith. They have lightsabers that one hit kill just about everything. Despite this the game is balanced amazingly well. Skill overrides class advantages / disadvantages and every class (solider, etc) has some chance against every other even though lightsabers one hit kill. MBII proves lightsabers can 1 hit while still providing a balanced game experience.
Lazy MMO developers.
It stupid to have a lightsaber hit a small dog eight times before it dies. I would rather see my attack blocked or dodged than have a lightsaber hit with no reaction from the enemy.
Lame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, pretty much. People arguing against lolf and steve are making the mistake of assuming this is purely a gameplay mechanic issue when it's not. Some animation tweaks would solve it.
Also the issue is <i>it's a goddamn lightsaber</i>, one of the most iconic fictional weapons of all time. It's best known feature is the sound it makes. Then after that is "it cuts through anything extremely easy". This second feature is <i>so iconic</i> that the best way to get a cheap star wars laugh is to have a lightsaber do something dumb, like act as a bat (Futurama) or generally not be the super sharp laser sword of death that the movies and EU consistently portray it as.
And then you get official games that do the exact same damn thing. It's ridiculous. Just make it so the animations don't connect and everything's fine.
To those that disagree: We can argue about this all week, but we're not going to deviate much from our entrenched positions. I want more authentic lightsabers, and I refuse to believe that this can't be achieved without making the game unbalanced or boring. I have explained in some detail what I think the options. I am willing to concede that this probably can't be achieved with a straight WoW clone, but that's an argument against WoW clones, not authentic lightsabers.
Nevertheless, a WoW clone is what you will get, and you're looking forward to it. Good for you. Enjoy your game - I probably won't play it, and you don't have to deal with me.
Expect a little schadenfreude though if it fails to capture market share from WoW because it isn't different enough. I am only human.
As soon as we start taking about 20 man FPS servers with actual hitboxes/proper hit prediction where lets face it the skill threshold is much higher, one hit kill lightsabers can totally have their place and I have no issue with it.
Its also not 'my game', i've no intention of playing it :P I'm a big Star Wars fan, noticed the thread and I just got irked by the standpoint that non-authentic lightsabers was abominable when it whats makes most sense from a game design perspective. I guarantee at some point Bioware had this conversation and the cons outweighed the pros.
The thing that irks me about this game is that I see lost potential. Lost potential always irks me. It's a crying shame. They had the opportunity to do something unique, something they could call their own, something that might even have moved the stagnant MMORPG genre forward in meaningful ways, and instead they opted for re-hashed WoW pap. Son, I am disappoint. :(
How can you guys complain that lightsabres aren't the realistic plasma cutters they should be, but skip over things such as being able to <b>infinitely resurrect yourself after being killed</b> or <b>instantly transport across planets</b>?
No... I'm with jamie on this.
How can you guys complain that lightsabres aren't the realistic plasma cutters they should be, but skip over things such as being able to <b>infinitely resurrect yourself after being killed</b> or <b>instantly transport across planets</b>?
No... I'm with jamie on this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can instantly teleport across planets? ghaaaaay!
How can you guys complain that lightsabres aren't the realistic plasma cutters they should be, but skip over things such as being able to <b>infinitely resurrect yourself after being killed</b> or <b>instantly transport across planets</b>?
No... I'm with jamie on this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To summarize: Resurrection and quick/instant transportation are necessary concessions. I don't need to explain why, we all know that. I say that lightsabers that have the lethality of fluorescent tubes aren't a necessity, just lazy design. I have explained my views at length, I think I have said all I have to say on the topic, and I'd prefer we leave the matter. You're welcome to continue the discussion, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who is getting tired of this, so before you do, please make sure it isn't just a rehash of what we have already talked about. Arguing in circles is only going to make us angry at each other at this point.
You just can't balance a force-using class with the others if you want to stick with the SW storyline. As far as i'm concerned, i think it looks like ridiculous seeing hordes of lightsaber-wielding noobs running around.
But i guess no playable jedis/siths = less sales, heh. Too bad for SW purists like me. Maybe next time!
If I don't die IRL when I get shot in the head by a sniper in TF2, I shouldn't die in the game either. Nerf headshots.
<!--quoteo(post=1837913:date=Mar 19 2011, 01:04 PM:name=Droggog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Droggog @ Mar 19 2011, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems 4 out of 8 playable classes are force-users... Imo jedis/siths should'nt even be in the game at all... or maybe just for the occasional gamemaster showing up, slicing in half griefing players with one blow, and maybe some rare NPC's.
You just can't balance a force-using class with the others if you want to stick with the SW storyline. As far as i'm concerned, i think it looks like ridiculous seeing hordes of lightsaber-wielding noobs running around.
But i guess no playable jedis/siths = less sales, heh. Too bad for SW purists like me. Maybe next time!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Star Wars Galaxies tried that. It didn't work.
There are two kinds of Star Wars fans: The kind that have seen the movies, and maybe played a Star Wars game or two, and the kind that have seen the movies, read the books, made their own stormtrooper armour for conventions, bought the technical manuals, have a meticulously detailed hand-assembled model of the Millenium Falcon in a glass vitrine in their living room and so on. I am over-simplifying of course, these are the extremes of the spectrum.
For the former kind, Star Wars = jedis. Oh sure, they probably know that there is more than that to it, but who cares. Take away the magical space knights, and Star Wars no longer appeals to those people. The latter kind have much broader interests, and don't mind playing a Star Wars game that features no playable jedi at all.
Star Wars Galaxies was a game that appealed mainly to the latter kind. At first jedi were completely absent. Later on they became available, but you had to jump through hoops to get them, and most players agreed that they weren't as interesting as the other classes in the game. But the "casual" SW fans outnumber the "hardcore" SW fans, and the casuals want jedi dammit and they want them now.
In light of the SWG disaster, launching a Star Wars MMO that didn't heavily feature jedi would be tantamount to financial suicide.