Unit-Production Time Assymetry
KuBaN
Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Members, Constellation
Does it strike anyone as odd, off, or possibly imbalanced, that after the initial tech research that opens up roles or classes (researching shotguns or exosuits for marines, or getting additional hives to unlock lerk or fade for aliens), the time it takes to switch roles (evolve or buy weapons) is almost non-existent on the marine side, yet almost interminable on the alien side?
Marines:
- The commander researches shotgun tech, which takes x seconds to research.
- A ground unit reports to the armory, spends personal resources for a shotgun, and receives it instantly.
Aliens:
- The commander builds a second hive, which takes x seconds to research.
- An alien ground opens the evolve menu, spends personal resources to evolve into a Fade, which takes (a lot of) y seconds, during which he/she is extremely vulnerable.
Now, I'm all for asymmetry, but doesn't this seem a bit off? Granted, by evolving you're altering your role entirely, whereas marines do it in parts, but it just strikes me as odd that marines can access their tech with no downside upon spawning, and be off in no time, while aliens have to sit around waiting to evolve. If evolving to higher life-forms takes longer, should it take longer to get, for instance, a grenade launcher? I'm not sure myself. Just throwing that out there.
Marines:
- The commander researches shotgun tech, which takes x seconds to research.
- A ground unit reports to the armory, spends personal resources for a shotgun, and receives it instantly.
Aliens:
- The commander builds a second hive, which takes x seconds to research.
- An alien ground opens the evolve menu, spends personal resources to evolve into a Fade, which takes (a lot of) y seconds, during which he/she is extremely vulnerable.
Now, I'm all for asymmetry, but doesn't this seem a bit off? Granted, by evolving you're altering your role entirely, whereas marines do it in parts, but it just strikes me as odd that marines can access their tech with no downside upon spawning, and be off in no time, while aliens have to sit around waiting to evolve. If evolving to higher life-forms takes longer, should it take longer to get, for instance, a grenade launcher? I'm not sure myself. Just throwing that out there.
Comments
Whereas marines are generally comitted once they get a certain distance from the base, and thus are at greater risk of dying.
So aliens won't need to replace their stuff as much as marines do.
Plus the fact that generally aliens can often insta-respawn. While marines have to queue up on one or two IP's.
commander builds three exos, first marines who buy get it.
like on the real market, first u have to produce then your customers can buy it.
what do you think about this quick idea?
Plus the fact that generally aliens can often insta-respawn. While marines have to queue up on one or two IP's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1836396:date=Mar 7 2011, 07:44 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 7 2011, 07:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836396"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its more or less balanced. Alien time to evolve is balanced by the marine time to spawn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I must be playing aliens wrong then. I die just as often regardless of the race I play, so as an alien I lose much more total resources (since the costs are higher).
/fixed.
/fixed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So aliens would only have to spend (Time to evolve to Life form - Time to respawn as Skulk) as an egg? Sounds good to me. BTW Skulks take 9 seconds to respawn respawn ATM, it is not instant. The alien advantage is that there is very rarely a respawn queue.
Aliens do have the ability to evolve in almost any place, but to me, that currently provides little advantage.
Also aliens have a lot of upgrades that all the players get instantly as soon as commander researches them, such as piercing and skulk running leap, bloodfury (?) and some others that aren't in yet.
No.
Lifeform based versus equipment based.
<3
Lifeform based versus equipment based.
<3<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lifeform determines your role. Equipment determines your role.
Role = Role
I think you're looking at the trees and not the forest.
I think it's fair as it is - marines can grab their weapon from an armory but they have to spawn at potentially only 1 portal. Both armory and portal can be destroyed and create a hassle while the commander tries to rebuild them. Aliens insta spawn as skulks, and can then choose to join the fray at once or invest time and resources in evolving into classes that are less easy to kill than the skulk. Eggs are harder to shut down than portals but you can get lucky and deny the investment of a guy evolving into fade.
In the future I think we will see not some kind of change to make the races more similar in this regard, but rather even longer evolving time for the Onos, and more expensive TSA weapons along with a mechanic to pick up the weapons of dead team mates.
If you think that the two sides of NS2 should contain any amount of comparable roles, then you don't understand NS2. All choices need to be viable though, at the moment I see little point in going Gorge
Yes you are, because aliens are time consuming and expensive you should play more conservatively and take advantage of their increased health and mobility to retreat when injured, you can get back in the fight faster by going to a hive than you can by respawning, unless you are a skulk.
What about shortcut keys to upgrades (such as running leap)
And incorporating the ESC key to close the menu.. In a heated match you may really need the extra milliseconds!
The Alien quadrilogy movies and games tend to paint a different picture, mind you the Skulk is still quite expendable I'd guess
If you think that I was implying that the two sides of NS2 should contain any amount of comparable roles, then you didn't understand the post.
These are all good points, however. I'll just have to work on my Alien game once it becomes playable.
Because of the strategic element and the focus on team effort, it is more about how much damage you can do, if you pull back from a fight but return to it after a short delay to heal, you will be a lot more helpful than if you kill a person and die in the process. Even being able to just skrimish with marines and delay them until you can get help is worth doing.
Commanders should note this and drop crags to create little forward heal zones for their lerks and fades, if there isn't already one planned then a pheromone marker for such sites would be a nice addition.
If your not counting skulks then yes. As a good lerk could last a whole round without dying. And a fade should kill a few marines before dying (good fades usually have VERY high K/D ratios). And Skulks don't take that extra time to evolve anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1836479:date=Mar 8 2011, 03:56 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 8 2011, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... if there isn't already one planned then a pheromone marker for such sites would be a nice addition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha! Gives a whole new meaning to crag-humping...
<u>The Alien quadrilogy movies and games tend to paint a different picture</u>, mind you the Skulk is still quite expendable I'd guess<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's nothing wrong with that approach. And as you say, it works in games also. The aliens get enhanced speed/jumping/wall-climbing/vision-modes/silent-foot-steps at the cost of 1% health/armor in order to force them to fight stealthily or hit and run. The same tactics are required now when marines get FT, but where the game should be is 1 shotgun blast at close range = dead fade, and same goes with 30 hits of rifle or half a mag of pistol.
Naturally it would require changes to alien spawn/egg rates and any alien role would need to be free + fast respawn to make it work... but it could work. Would definitely make CO more fun to play.
Role = Role
I think you're looking at the trees and not the forest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I'm not.
It's perhaps NS's greatest strength is the asymmetry between how the two sides determine roles. One is equipment based, and thus more flexible and quick. The other is lifeform based, takes that extra time to specialize, but each individual can do serious work in their area of expertise making it all worth it. Makes total sense.
I think we all agree shotguns will need a rebalance eventually.
It's perhaps NS's greatest strength is the asymmetry between how the two sides determine roles. One is equipment based, and thus more flexible and quick. The other is lifeform based, takes that extra time to specialize, but each individual can do serious work in their area of expertise making it all worth it. Makes total sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you'll find anything I've posted that contradicts that statement.
So you're saying it doesn't
<!--quoteo(post=1836364:date=Mar 7 2011, 01:49 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Mar 7 2011, 01:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836364"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->strike anyone as odd, off, or possibly imbalanced, that after the initial tech research that opens up roles or classes (researching shotguns or exosuits for marines, or getting additional hives to unlock lerk or fade for aliens), the time it takes to switch roles (evolve or buy weapons) is almost non-existent on the marine side, yet almost interminable on the alien side?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because essentially the way I read that is you saying the lag time required to evolve is something that should be reduced/removed since it takes asymmetry too far, and yet the statement I made is that there is a good reason for that very asymmetry in Aliens evolving and that it's perfectly fine.
Because essentially the way I read that is you saying the lag time required to evolve is something that should be reduced/removed since it takes asymmetry too far, and yet the statement I made is that there is a good reason for that very asymmetry in Aliens evolving and that it's perfectly fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If anything I would be more for adding a short build-time for marine equipment that scaled with the tiers (which would probably also limit the number of high-tier weapons floating about, but this is for another thread), but I never suggested anything <b>should</b> be altered, I was merely playing the devil's advocate. Asking whether you all think it is a balanced, well-thought out system or possibly some left-over design relic that doesn't translate properly, or something else I haven't thought of. Instead, your response to the first post is, "No. Lifeform based versus equipment based," which I understand as, "Because the two are not the same/related, they aren't comparable, therefore your questions are invalid." I can only assume that you aren't seeing the two as comparable because you see them more literally, while I'm observing marine equipment and alien evolutions abstractly, purely for their function.
Yes but the skulk, just as the marine, also takes no time or resources to evolve to. So this is balanced.
cost increases in the following order...
skulk, marine+rifle, gorge, marine+shotgun, marine+flamethrower, marine+grenade launcher, lerk, fade, onos
survivability also increases in roughly the same order.
with classes on the far right side of the spectrum, you really do have to consider taking advantage of the inherent increased survivability and play carefully to those strengths.
so to address the OP, unit production time is not merely evolve time (zero for skulks, zero for all marines), but also unit spawn time; other things that have to be considered are expendability/survivability, and of course cost.
Ok, that makes way more sense now that you explained it.