Commander Strategy: Build Order
ScardyBob
ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Just wanted to share and get feedback on my comm build orders. The first 10 minutes seem to be the most important. Although, I may vary this based on how good/bad my team is doing, the general strats are:
<b>Marines:</b> Rush flamethrowers, get shotguns along the way, don't expand beyond 2 extractors until your side is fully upgrade (e.g. all weapons + armor 1, damage 1)
<b>Aliens:</b> Get 3 hives early for large DI push on marine start, hive mass to get early fades, and running leap for skulks
<u><b>Marine Build Order</b></u>
1. Armory
2. 2nd Command Station
3. Upgrade 1st Command Station to Command Facility
4. 2nd Extractor
5. Shotguns
6. 1st upgrade both extractors
7. Advanced Armory
8. 2nd upgrade both extractors
9. Weapons module
10. 3rd upgrade both extractors
11. Flamethrower
12. Grenade launcher
13. 2nd infantry portal
<u><b>Alien Build Order</b></u>
1. 2nd Hive
2. 3rd Hive
3. 2nd Harvester
4. 3rd Harvester
5. Upgrade 1st Hive to Hive Mass
6. Whip
7. Running leap
8. Melee 1
9. Crag
10. Armor 1
11. 4th (or replacement) Harvester
12. Melee 2
13. Armor 2
Thoughts? Comments? Other build orders?
<b>Marines:</b> Rush flamethrowers, get shotguns along the way, don't expand beyond 2 extractors until your side is fully upgrade (e.g. all weapons + armor 1, damage 1)
<b>Aliens:</b> Get 3 hives early for large DI push on marine start, hive mass to get early fades, and running leap for skulks
<u><b>Marine Build Order</b></u>
1. Armory
2. 2nd Command Station
3. Upgrade 1st Command Station to Command Facility
4. 2nd Extractor
5. Shotguns
6. 1st upgrade both extractors
7. Advanced Armory
8. 2nd upgrade both extractors
9. Weapons module
10. 3rd upgrade both extractors
11. Flamethrower
12. Grenade launcher
13. 2nd infantry portal
<u><b>Alien Build Order</b></u>
1. 2nd Hive
2. 3rd Hive
3. 2nd Harvester
4. 3rd Harvester
5. Upgrade 1st Hive to Hive Mass
6. Whip
7. Running leap
8. Melee 1
9. Crag
10. Armor 1
11. 4th (or replacement) Harvester
12. Melee 2
13. Armor 2
Thoughts? Comments? Other build orders?
Comments
Why is the game over for marines though, if you get DI in their base? They can still develop weapons or build to their expansion.
For aliens, this got me thinking of some sort of really quick fade push.
Something like: Canal, canal, canal, hive, 2x harvester, whip, weapon 1.
No idea how many canal upgrades are necessary though, or how much that would cripple alien economy if the fade rush doesn't work.
I with the start carbon I usually buy a 2nd comstation/hive, an amory/whip and 2 Restowers. after that I start teching up.
The earlier you get Restowers the earlier they will pay off.
But everyone has his own strategy I guess.
1. 2nd Hive
2. Whip
3. Melee 1
4. 2nd Harvester
5. 3rd Harvester
6. 3rd Hive
7. Upgrade 1st Hive to Hive Mass
8. Crag
9. Armor 1
at which point the game really differentiates and it becomes variable.
1. MAC (before upgrading CC cause while upgrading you can´t build a MAC)
3. build RT and upgrading the 1st RT (in ns_tram try to get double res)
2. 2nd CC and MAC at this CC (then upgrading 1st CC immediately and sell 2nd CC)
4. Armory and upgrading to advanced (then next upgrade and sg or flamer, what mates want ;) )
5. Sentry to protect base and especially IP
6. Player upgrades
If you have a good team that follows orders it runs nice
Same as Weaponup or Armorup first discussions.
They are good for beginner commanders, but then again, they will be better told to listen to the team what is actually needed the most.
For marine side,
1. Armory
2. Extractor
3. Extractor
4. Shotguns (but sometimes another extractor before this)
5. Armor 1
6. CC
7. T2
Aliens will always benefit from T2 earlier than marines because fades are restricted only by tech level, and nothing else (no extra upgrades have to be researched after T2 is done). So I like to have armor 1 and shotguns to deal with fades before getting T2. Since shotguns are a must against lerks and are effective against pretty much everything else, I get them before armor 1. The high number of extractors allows me to get extra upgrades/buildings while teching to flamethrowers.
For alien side,
1. Hive
2. Harvester
3. Harvester
4. Hive mass (but sometimes another harvester before this)
5. Whip
6. Leap
7. Hive or Melee 1
Not much to say, it's a pretty standard build. You could just get 3 hives right away and block off marine T2 as an offensive build, but then that leaves you vulnerable if they decide to take out your starting harvester.
I use vastly different strategies on Rockdown vs Tram. On rockdown I usually try to tech up before pushing out. On tram, I usually go for lots of extractors and try to take central. If my marines are dying to two bites, I make sure to upgrade the armor level ASAP.
For alien, again it's different on Rockdown vs Tram, but try to get one hive and one harvester down. Then try to upgrade to melee #1 asap to get 2-bite kills, which makes a huge difference. I never build a crag until I have a level 2 hive and at least 3 harvesters, since I don't think the alien armor upgrades actually work at the moment. The melee upgrades do, however.
<b><u>Alien</u></b>
-Get 2nd hive up ASAP and upgrade main
-Get Harvesters and leap upgrade
-Prevent marines from placing res with infestation
I usually take control of most of the map extremely early and play fast (get Fades and Skulk Leap...not much else besides little upgrades) right away. As long as your team is doing something (almost anything), being an alien commander is extremely easy.
<b><u>Marine</u></b>
-Get Shotguns and Grenade Launchers as fast as possible (once again...not much else to upgrade to besides flamethrowers)
That is my only goal as the marine Comm with the way the game is now. When my teammates actually listen and use launchers+shotguns they can take down Hives and all aliens structures in minutes.
<b><u>Overall</u></b>
There is just not enough in the game right now to make any strategy clever or worthwhile. Upgrade your offensive capabilty quickly and kill the other team. Works every time for me. I don't think I've lost when commanding yet. I don't focus on earning my team extra plasma as it seems everyone always has some to spare no matter what. Res is important, yeah...but you only need enough to get the upgrades that really matter.
Side Note: Want a challege for a multiplayer strategy game? Play Men of War by 1C Company. Man, I love that game. Every unit is so precious.
2nd hive
2nd res
Hive upgrade
get out of comm, attack
die
canal x2 or pick up another RT
tell entire team to go fade
win
Haven't lost yet with this build. You can get fades stupidly fast.
For marines imo depends more on map and what happens but generally:
Take only close refs.
Tech up flame throwers/shotguns.
Push hives with medpack spam.
If you can survive to flamethrowers/shotguns there is no reason to lose. Medpack spam WTF pwns.
I wonder who would win.
In my opinion it depends on the other teams commander. If there is a skilled alien com and a skilled marine com it can be a hard time for both teams.
Mainly because the "research stuff and kill enemy base asap" strategy don't work so well if both teams try that.
ha,
thats easy, me,
remember, i already ate your ip/rt/hive :P
My mainproblem is my strategies and buildorders vary too much, depends on #players, nameofplayers, nameofenemyplayers.
But in general SG>All and infestation=evil
I wonder who would win.
In my opinion it depends on the other teams commander. If there is a skilled alien com and a skilled marine com it can be a hard time for both teams.
Mainly because the "research stuff and kill enemy base asap" strategy don't work so well if both teams try that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Part of the reason I made this thread is the hope to get more good commanders in NS2. I frequently comm matches where we steamroll the enemy team because their comm isn't very good. Its both boring and frustrating, because I actually want competitive matches that force me to adapt and change my strategy.
Also, in response to some of the comments in this thread:
1. While in theory, build orders should be different for each game/playercount/map, in practice, I frequently find myself going with this build order with only minor changes. Not exactly sure the reason, but I generally win most of my matches this way.
2. I originally stopped upgrading extractors when I learned they didn't upgrade TRes. However, I find it to be useful on the marine side so you can get PRes for health/ammo drops. I like to spam health/ammo around my team when they are attacking an enemy-held room.
3. The reason why I've gone with the 2-3 res node strategy is because I find it hard to defend more than that number on either rockdown or tram. Remember, you need approximately 180 ticks before the extractor/harvester has paid for itself, so if you lose it before that number, its basically wasted resources.
4. DI is mostly unstoppable before marines get ft. So if you can spam marine start with DI, its basically a triple-strike. i) You get sight on all marines, ii) aliens heal while attacking marine start, iii) any structures destroyed basically can't be rebuilt. In theory, its still possible for marines to comeback, especially if they are on their way to getting ft, but in practice I generally see the marines lose if marine start gets covered in DI.
basically it is what i prefer to do ingame, just ask them if they are new to it and want to really learn it.
I did many off-chair-commandings. Thinking that the multiple-commander posibility is a great thing.
1. for example: 3 minor changes can totally change the game ^^ I think there are other factors despite the current build-order which made you win, communication , ...
2. Same here, only for extractors that are marked as undestroyable
3. Totally different on my side. I calculate that a skulk will need time to kill this extractor. In this time my other structures will be saved.
Skulks attack RTs, they get killed, try it again, get killed again, much time wasted. So limiting it only to 2 Extractor will shift their Attack-interest towards your vital buildings.
In NS1 i didnt calc in Resources, i calculated in time needed and time left ^^
4. Jepp, with the increased DI-health, ft´s are only usefull to get rid of skulks while attacking a hive, lets hope that mineshaft is big enough to matter.
5. I hope new commanders learn more from such discussions
<!--quoteo(post=1835360:date=Feb 28 2011, 01:52 PM:name=Pat (GER))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pat (GER) @ Feb 28 2011, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. MAC (before upgrading CC cause while upgrading you can´t build a MAC)
2. build RT and upgrading the 1st RT (in ns_tram try to get double res)
3. 2nd CC and MAC at this CC (then upgrading 1st CC immediately and sell 2nd CC)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
then:
4. Armory
5. Shotguns
6. Armor 1
7. Depends on the game: player upgrades or straight to ft's
<!--quoteo(post=1835408:date=Feb 28 2011, 08:41 PM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Feb 28 2011, 08:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want to see a match between all the guys here who say that they never lost as com.
I wonder who would win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess it would be first loss for some people :p
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->//doh, ofc I don't believe that someone never lost a game<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
3. build RT and upgrading the 1st RT (in ns_tram try to get double res)
2. 2nd CC and MAC at this CC (then upgrading 1st CC immediately and sell 2nd CC)
4. Armory
5. Shotguns
6. Armor 1
7. Depends on the game: player upgrades or straight to ft's<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey stop stealing my posts :P
1. Armory
2. 2nd Command Station
3. Upgrade 1st Command Station to Command Facility
4. 2nd Extractor
5. Shotguns
6. 1st upgrade both extractors
7. Advanced Armory
8. 2nd upgrade both extractors
9. Weapons module
10. 3rd upgrade both extractors
11. Flamethrower
12. Grenade launcher
13. 2nd infantry portal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is good under the assumption that your initial push succeeds. If it fails you need to upgrade to shotguns immediately and get real tactical with your push. Assuming this is Rock Down as in Tram it's way to easy for both sides to get their second chair/hive. I'd split your team up between west and central. Just hope your marines are good shots. While doing this you need to get a second extractor going and upgrade them. Reasoning for this is if your secondary push(s) fail these two extractors are going to be the only thing keeping you guys alive and allowing for shotguns. By the time your on your third push I'd start worrying about lerks.
Otherwise good build order assuming everything is happening in your favor.
Another good tactic is to send a team of marines behind enemy lines and start taking out alien extractors. A team of shotgunners with commander support can do this well as long as they can hit moving skulks. Even with the current lag it's possible. Just think of the days (if your that old) of gaming on a dial up 56k.
<b>Marines:</b> Rush flamethrowers, get shotguns along the way, don't expand beyond 2 extractors until your side is fully upgrade (e.g. all weapons + armor 1, damage 1)
<b>Aliens:</b> Get 3 hives early for large DI push on marine start, hive mass to get early fades, and running leap for skulks
<u><b>Marine Build Order</b></u>
1. Armory
2. 2nd Command Station
3. Upgrade 1st Command Station to Command Facility
4. 2nd Extractor
5. Shotguns
6. 1st upgrade both extractors
7. Advanced Armory
8. 2nd upgrade both extractors
9. Weapons module
10. 3rd upgrade both extractors
11. Flamethrower
12. Grenade launcher
13. 2nd infantry portal
<u><b>Alien Build Order</b></u>
1. 2nd Hive
2. 3rd Hive
3. 2nd Harvester
4. 3rd Harvester
5. Upgrade 1st Hive to Hive Mass
6. Whip
7. Running leap
8. Melee 1
9. Crag
10. Armor 1
11. 4th (or replacement) Harvester
12. Melee 2
13. Armor 2
Thoughts? Comments? Other build orders?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's a comment:
THE GAME IS FAR FROM FINISHED (UPGRADES, STRUCTURES, ETC) SO THESE ORDERS/STRATEGIES ARE MEANINGLESS!
With all the nerfs to the flamethrower recently, it's really not worth getting over the shotgun. The only real reason for the flamethrower is if your team can't aim or you desperately need to clear out a few patches of DI. Since alien upgrades are currently broken, marines can get quite powerful with a shotgun and some weapon/armor upgrades. It's also important to take and hold RT before the aliens can block with DI (which takes forever to take out -- easier to just kill the hive it's attached to). With that in mind...
I build a MAC immediately and send it off to the RT east of base.
Have marines build an armory
Research shotguns
Have team cover double (and the other RT as needed, with MACs on standby), build both RT
Build CC in natural expansion
Research Armor 1
Upgrade base CC
Focus on clearing out middle tech point, research weapons 1 if res is available
Upgrade armory when CC finishes, research weapons module, then flamethrower
Take middle point, get CC up, research level 2 weapons
Upgrade base CC, build forward point in middle, start pushing remaining two points
...and then it's gg. With two and later 3 CC up it's not difficult to keep MACs repairing attacked RT while your marines head over to sweep them out (also distracts the aliens from the incoming marines). I also like to build IP in the middle tech point as it places marines closer to the hives. There's no power node in that area, so you have to build a portable power pack with the IPs until it gets fixed.
For aliens, having energy is the most important thing so you can spread DI and deny marines from expanding (also lets you expand yourself). With all the lag, fades aren't yet the stopping power they should be, and they are taken out with shotguns very quickly. They are good to have (especially against flamethrowers), but I prioritize map control over the 2nd hive upgrade. With no RT, they won't be able to afford a lot of shotguns and will significantly delay the flamethrower. Pretty much all non-hive/RT buildings are worthless except for a mass of crags near the enemy base for fades to heal up. With that in mind...
Build 2 hives ASAP
Use 3rd drifter to build the northeast RT while using the 3 hives to creep over there
Expand creep over double (note that it goes through walls)
Take the RT east of the middle hive
Upgrade main hive to level 2
Spread creep to middle RT, southeastern RT, then base
While spreading creep, take RT in double
Build a whip, research running leap (could probably do this a lot earlier, but I usually don't see people using it anyway)
Build a ton of crags around middle hive (in my experience they attack this the most often when they can't hold double, will help keep it up and heal defending aliens)
Eventually kill marine IPs
So not true. We're talking <b>current</b> build strategies here, right? Noone's saying they're final.
<!--quoteo(post=1835715:date=Mar 3 2011, 02:55 AM:name=Stele007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stele007 @ Mar 3 2011, 02:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With all the nerfs to the flamethrower recently, it's really not worth getting over the shotgun. The only real reason for the flamethrower is if your team can't aim or you desperately need to clear out a few patches of DI.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah:
1. It's very good for killing lerks [pain in the ass to kill with a sg] and skulks.
2. It's a great support when fighting with fades.
We're talking specifically about build orders (in the traditional RTS-style) rather than general strategies. Basically, the order of first 10 or so structures built/upgrades can have a profound effect on the outcome of a match in a traditional RTS. Build order importance is probably less important in an FPS/RTS hybrid like NS2, but I think from the responses in this thread, there are some major similarities and differences between approaches.
I do it in every game, but I just pop them out as needed. It can get annoying managing too many, so I typically have two groups of three MACs.