<!--quoteo(post=1829191:date=Feb 2 2011, 06:22 PM:name=whoppaXXL)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (whoppaXXL @ Feb 2 2011, 06:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also aliens with activated nightvision (soon to come i hope!) could be blinded by these things, so they have to switch to normal view again! More interesting combat situations!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1829191:date=Feb 2 2011, 07:22 PM:name=whoppaXXL)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (whoppaXXL @ Feb 2 2011, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the flare/gluestick idea!
Just keep it to max. 2 sticks each life that you can drop/throw. It would act in a specific color and steam a bit. So you could lighten up vents etc. Also aliens with activated nightvision (soon to come i hope!) could be blinded by these things, so they have to switch to normal view again! More interesting combat situations!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> how about it turns off by default? I think that would be by far more annoying.
<!--quoteo(post=1829186:date=Feb 2 2011, 06:59 PM:name=sheena_yanai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sheena_yanai @ Feb 2 2011, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1829170:date=Feb 2 2011, 02:51 PM:name=SamW)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SamW @ Feb 2 2011, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I remember in Metro 2033, there where these "ghosts" which you could really only see if you used your flashlight. They would basically cast a shadow when you shined the light on them. It would be an interesting effect if aliens casted shadows from your flashlight or a specially upgraded flashlight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That would be so ###### creepy, i liked that effect in metro , and thinking about how aliens coud make themself invisible by pushing themself out of phase just enough that light is passing right through them as long thy wont move, and a flashlight addon with "out of phase light" that could cast at least a faint shadow of the alien you shine it at..... Dang, wait a second... Wasnt that this one stargate episode?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If marines can neutralize cloaking with a purchased upgrade, it will become standard loadout and cloaking is obsolete.
Why should an anti-cloaking device mean that cloaking is obsolete? You're assuming that the device is cheap, extremely powerful, easy to use, and 100% effective in all situtations. That would make cloaking obselete.
<!--quoteo(post=1829170:date=Feb 2 2011, 05:51 AM:name=SamW)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SamW @ Feb 2 2011, 05:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I remember in Metro 2033, there where these "ghosts" which you could really only see if you used your flashlight. They would basically cast a shadow when you shined the light on them. It would be an interesting effect if aliens casted shadows from your flashlight or a specially upgraded flashlight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea of if the power goes out the room goes compleate dark, a flare attachment for the rifle could be reserched, and the flares could stick to walls, but for a limited time, so one person in the squad needs to have the attachment if there storming a dark room, he fires them all over the walls and ceilings and the fight commences in light.
GUYS GUYS GUYS Heavy weapons should lose flashlights and have to rely on flares (they are the only ones that have them) and fellow marines lights. This ought to balance dual miniguns.
1) complete darkness is lame, don't do it. EVER 2) why do we need flares if we have infinite flashlights? 3) use something else to decloak. Like say an Obs scan. Or limited decloak via Motion Tracking. Or something else. Tacking on features to a failed product doesn't make it less fail. Make anew product. It's all virtual models anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=1829477:date=Feb 4 2011, 07:32 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Feb 4 2011, 07:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why do we need flares if we have infinite flashlights?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the point of a flare is to brighten an area, instead of just a small cone, but its limited by its radius and burn duration. its not meant to replace the flashlight, and its also not meant to be carried around while its burning, to nerf it a bit it should be a dropable item of limited capacity, like 2 pieces. its just a additional source of light you could research to increase the effectivnes of marines in darkness.
<!--quoteo(post=1829345:date=Feb 3 2011, 01:35 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Feb 3 2011, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...If marines can neutralize cloaking with a purchased upgrade, it will become standard loadout and cloaking is obsolete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember that the glowstick suggestion includes a limit of 1 or 2 max per player. So it's not OP. Also it's not like a glowstick will just reveal all in a room. Due to geometry and such things they would need to be thrown correctly. I think it add layers to the strategy and combat in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1829477:date=Feb 3 2011, 06:32 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Feb 3 2011, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) complete darkness is lame, don't do it. EVER 2) why do we need flares if we have infinite flashlights? 3) use something else to decloak. Like say an Obs scan. Or limited decloak via Motion Tracking. Or something else. Tacking on features to a failed product doesn't make it less fail. Make anew product. It's all virtual models anyways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->1) With Flashlight you will never have complete darkness, plus the current red light is way to bright to be a disadvantage for marines. It's just an indicator at the moment. I think the the room should stay mostly right it is right have the node is destroyed and perhaps have only a few emergency red lights point at doors or the power node itself. The roof should definitely be very very dark. 2) Because they would have a special gameplay purpose, like the decloaking suggestion 3) What about taking advantage of the awesome new engine?
Here is the video that sort of inspired me to make the glowstick/flare suggestion (my take on it I mean). Look at all the different "layer" of lighting that the engine can handle. Now imagine using one of those to simulate ultraviolet vision/lighting. Think raves, or the avatar night vision, or how birds see. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealFlayra#p/u/15/1G3amfulHoo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealFlayra#p/u/15/1G3amfulHoo</a>
This way you could have the aliens become visible when a glowstick shines directly on it.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1829585:date=Feb 4 2011, 10:37 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Feb 4 2011, 10:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The current 'pitch black' isn't even pitch black. You can see the outlines of aliens easily so even people who hate dark areas can't complain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with "fake" darkness is, people will turn their gamma up to negate the small disadvantage they have. I turned gamma up to 2.0, and found I could see very well in red lights, and even in "pitch black" rooms, I could see the moving silhouettes. I really hope it will not become the norm.
<!--quoteo(post=1829597:date=Feb 4 2011, 10:51 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 4 2011, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with "fake" darkness is, people will turn their gamma up to negate the small disadvantage they have. I turned gamma up to 2.0, and found I could see very well in red lights, and even in "pitch black" rooms, I could see the moving silhouettes. I really hope it will not become the norm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> cranking gamma? sir, you are a disgrace how could you
Someone posted in another thread that the devs can change the lighting setting to stop gamma setting changes from making things in darkness more visible.
<!--quoteo(post=1829556:date=Feb 4 2011, 08:13 AM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Feb 4 2011, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...If marines can neutralize cloaking with a purchased upgrade, it will become standard loadout and cloaking is obsolete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Remember that the glowstick suggestion includes a limit of 1 or 2 max per player. So it's not OP. Also it's not like a glowstick will just reveal all in a room. Due to geometry and such things they would need to be thrown correctly. I think it add layers to the strategy and combat in the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I commented on the use of flashlights to neutralize cloaking, not glowsticks. With glowsticks I can arange myself because they are stationary and dont move. But flashlights, especially if a whole assault squad of marines is equipped with phased light, would make it a staple. I hope you understand where I come from, as a moving squad can not be ambushed if they do the <a href="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/4989576404_c36ff88d1d_z.jpg" target="_blank">turtle link</a> properly, then.
<!--quoteo(post=1829585:date=Feb 4 2011, 01:37 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Feb 4 2011, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The current 'pitch black' isn't even pitch black. You can see the outlines of aliens easily so even people who hate dark areas can't complain. <a href="http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/6728/ns22010120721292238.jpg" target="_blank">http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/6728/ns...20721292238.jpg</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS2 is in beta. I do believe it is highly possible that will be trashed later.
On a side note, with dynamic lighting it'd prefer <a href="http://www.supplierlist.com/photo_images/511/Rotary_Flashing_Light_Plugs_into_Any_110VAC_Outlet.jpg" target="_blank">rotary (red) lights link</a>. That'd be amazing and disorienting at the same time, granting <b>everyone</b> capable of utilizing the effect advantages.
Dead Space 2 has all gfx effects we can dream of:(hope uwe guys played it too) <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b68wN9bfJs&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b68wN9bfJs...feature=related</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1829170:date=Feb 2 2011, 01:51 PM:name=SamW)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SamW @ Feb 2 2011, 01:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I remember in Metro 2033, there where these "ghosts" which you could really only see if you used your flashlight. They would basically cast a shadow when you shined the light on them. It would be an interesting effect if aliens casted shadows from your flashlight or a specially upgraded flashlight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hm.. That is a great idea for a abillity of the shade-chamber! Skulks turn nearly invisible but the shadow stays solid... so the marines have to use their flashlight to find the skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=1829450:date=Feb 3 2011, 08:18 PM:name=AaronEl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AaronEl @ Feb 3 2011, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->GUYS GUYS GUYS Heavy weapons should lose flashlights and have to rely on flares (they are the only ones that have them) and fellow marines lights. This ought to balance dual miniguns.
Don't argue with this, you know it's awesome!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody liked this idea? I'm a little surprised...
<!--quoteo(post=1829991:date=Feb 6 2011, 04:29 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 6 2011, 04:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If anything, exos should have gigantic blinding floodlights attached.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lasers; <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14310-party-laser-blinds-russian-ravers.html" target="_blank">everything is better with lasers</a>.
<!--quoteo(post=1829556:date=Feb 3 2011, 10:13 PM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Feb 3 2011, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) With Flashlight you will never have complete darkness, plus the current red light is way to bright to be a disadvantage for marines. It's just an indicator at the moment. I think the the room should stay mostly right it is right have the node is destroyed and perhaps have only a few emergency red lights point at doors or the power node itself. The roof should definitely be very very dark. 2) Because they would have a special gameplay purpose, like the decloaking suggestion 3) What about taking advantage of the awesome new engine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My biggest problem is forcing players to use a mechanic or else be utterly destroyed for something like lighting is a poor idea.
I've played many, many games where they claim "we have shadows and stuff, you can finally hide!!!!" and they all are miserable. Being unable to navigate is just one of many other problems. Perhaps the biggest is that you've taken away player's ability to assess and handle situations, which is a BAD THING. You've effectively removed player choice, which then makes the player (albeit unconsciously) hate you.
In fact, if you look at the original NS maps, they experimented a lot with darker lighting, giving a strong atmosphere. However, eventually they had to brighten it all up so that players could effectively navigate and see what they were shooting.
In terms off pointing to other games like Dead Space, let me remind everyone that Single-Player games have a very different set of goals and responsibilities than multi-player. That being said, notice how Dead Space 2 handles rotary lights in<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b68wN9bfJs&feature=player_detailpage#t=202s" target="_blank"> this vid</a>. You still have enough ambient to distinguish things, but the rotary lights not only add to the atmosphere but help briefly highlight the threats. The key points though is 1) there are enough that you can still see most of the map at any given time due to overlapping and 2) they are NOT the only light source and only help illuminate the darker corners, not the main parts of the map required for navigation and basic identification of enemies.
<!--quoteo(post=1830353:date=Feb 7 2011, 07:27 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Feb 7 2011, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1830353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My biggest problem is forcing players to use a mechanic or else be utterly destroyed for something like lighting is a poor idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I sure hope the flare does not become that important. I visualize as simply another layer of counter measures from the RTS tech race perspective. Aliens may not research cloak in every game, but when they do then marines will need to use flares to counter the cloak. This works well at the economic level and the tactical level as long as the flares do not become necessary in every engagement even after cloak has being researched by aliens.
I think it's posible to implement is such a way that they are useful and balanced yet not so necessary as to become repetitive as boring.
Another way to balance flashlight vs flare use is to make it a special mode of the flashlight where you can throw it have have it work as area light but then you lose it until you pick it up again.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1832566:date=Feb 16 2011, 06:03 PM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Feb 16 2011, 06:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another way to balance flashlight vs flare use is to make it a special mode of the flashlight where you can throw it have have it work as area light but then you lose it until you pick it up again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine 1: Let's check out Repair Room. Where's your flashlight? Marine 2: I threw it in that other room. I think I saw a Skulk. Where's yours? Marine 1: Oh I threw it in that room 2 minutes ago. I think a Skulk took it back to the hive.
=P
I agree that RTS games are mostly based on simple rules of rock-paper-scissors. For every upgrade, there should be a counter, or at least a method of equalizing the odds. I would hate to see Cloak to be easily countered by something every marine marine can acquire cheaply (eg. Flashlight or Flare).
Edit: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->die in fire. RPS = bad balance design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is that you, PD? You sound just like a friend of mine. :P
I made a slip there by oversimplifying the dynamic of RTS games. Of course RTS are not simply R-P-S! I love complex RTS games like Starcraft 2. It is also a race to crush the opposition by scouting, upgrading, army positioning, timed attacks, surgical strikes. The list goes on!
<!--quoteo(post=1832567:date=Feb 15 2011, 11:24 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 15 2011, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that RTS games are mostly based on simple rules of rock-paper-scissors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
die in fire. RPS = bad balance design.
EDIT: in before flame!
What I mean is that if you are relying on pure RPS mechanics, you are doing it WRONG.
Having units having their place, having strong counters, and so on is good. 3-ply balancing is good! Using bland RPS is BAD. "Hard counters" is bad.
"But spellman23, StarCraft 2 Mutas counter Marauder!!!" Congrats. So does EVERY OTHER AIR UNIT THAT CAN SHOOT GROUND. That's not a counter, that's a limitation of a single unit. And as we've seen, people thought certain units were hard counters, but they aren't. Marines versus Banelings have undergone quite a few shifts in thinking over the year.
Comments
Good idea!
Just keep it to max. 2 sticks each life that you can drop/throw. It would act in a specific color and steam a bit. So you could lighten up vents etc.
Also aliens with activated nightvision (soon to come i hope!) could be blinded by these things, so they have to switch to normal view again! More interesting combat situations!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how about it turns off by default? I think that would be by far more annoying.
<!--quoteo(post=1829186:date=Feb 2 2011, 06:59 PM:name=sheena_yanai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sheena_yanai @ Feb 2 2011, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1829170:date=Feb 2 2011, 02:51 PM:name=SamW)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SamW @ Feb 2 2011, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I remember in Metro 2033, there where these "ghosts" which you could really only see if you used your flashlight. They would basically cast a shadow when you shined the light on them. It would be an interesting effect if aliens casted shadows from your flashlight or a specially upgraded flashlight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That would be so ###### creepy, i liked that effect in metro , and thinking about how aliens coud make themself invisible by pushing themself out of phase just enough that light is passing right through them as long thy wont move, and a flashlight addon with "out of phase light" that could cast at least a faint shadow of the alien you shine it at..... Dang, wait a second... Wasnt that this one stargate episode?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If marines can neutralize cloaking with a purchased upgrade, it will become standard loadout and cloaking is obsolete.
+like
you know what it does!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEz70ClCetM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEz70ClCetM</a>
Heavy weapons should lose flashlights and have to rely on flares (they are the only ones that have them) and fellow marines lights. This ought to balance dual miniguns.
Don't argue with this, you know it's awesome!
2) why do we need flares if we have infinite flashlights?
3) use something else to decloak. Like say an Obs scan. Or limited decloak via Motion Tracking. Or something else. Tacking on features to a failed product doesn't make it less fail. Make anew product. It's all virtual models anyways.
the point of a flare is to brighten an area, instead of just a small cone, but its limited by its radius and burn duration. its not meant to replace the flashlight, and its also not meant to be carried around while its burning, to nerf it a bit it should be a dropable item of limited capacity, like 2 pieces. its just a additional source of light you could research to increase the effectivnes of marines in darkness.
Remember that the glowstick suggestion includes a limit of 1 or 2 max per player. So it's not OP. Also it's not like a glowstick will just reveal all in a room. Due to geometry and such things they would need to be thrown correctly. I think it add layers to the strategy and combat in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1829477:date=Feb 3 2011, 06:32 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Feb 3 2011, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) complete darkness is lame, don't do it. EVER
2) why do we need flares if we have infinite flashlights?
3) use something else to decloak. Like say an Obs scan. Or limited decloak via Motion Tracking. Or something else. Tacking on features to a failed product doesn't make it less fail. Make anew product. It's all virtual models anyways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->1) With Flashlight you will never have complete darkness, plus the current red light is way to bright to be a disadvantage for marines. It's just an indicator at the moment. I think the the room should stay mostly right it is right have the node is destroyed and perhaps have only a few emergency red lights point at doors or the power node itself. The roof should definitely be very very dark.
2) Because they would have a special gameplay purpose, like the decloaking suggestion
3) What about taking advantage of the awesome new engine?
Here is the video that sort of inspired me to make the glowstick/flare suggestion (my take on it I mean). Look at all the different "layer" of lighting that the engine can handle. Now imagine using one of those to simulate ultraviolet vision/lighting. Think raves, or the avatar night vision, or how birds see.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealFlayra#p/u/15/1G3amfulHoo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealFlayra#p/u/15/1G3amfulHoo</a>
This way you could have the aliens become visible when a glowstick shines directly on it.
<img src="http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/6728/ns22010120721292238.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The problem with "fake" darkness is, people will turn their gamma up to negate the small disadvantage they have. I turned gamma up to 2.0, and found I could see very well in red lights, and even in "pitch black" rooms, I could see the moving silhouettes. I really hope it will not become the norm.
cranking gamma?
sir, you are a disgrace
how could you
Remember that the glowstick suggestion includes a limit of 1 or 2 max per player. So it's not OP. Also it's not like a glowstick will just reveal all in a room. Due to geometry and such things they would need to be thrown correctly. I think it add layers to the strategy and combat in the game.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I commented on the use of flashlights to neutralize cloaking, not glowsticks. With glowsticks I can arange myself because they are stationary and dont move. But flashlights, especially if a whole assault squad of marines is equipped with phased light, would make it a staple.
I hope you understand where I come from, as a moving squad can not be ambushed if they do the <a href="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/4989576404_c36ff88d1d_z.jpg" target="_blank">turtle link</a> properly, then.
<!--quoteo(post=1829585:date=Feb 4 2011, 01:37 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Feb 4 2011, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The current 'pitch black' isn't even pitch black. You can see the outlines of aliens easily so even people who hate dark areas can't complain.
<a href="http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/6728/ns22010120721292238.jpg" target="_blank">http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/6728/ns...20721292238.jpg</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 is in beta. I do believe it is highly possible that will be trashed later.
On a side note, with dynamic lighting it'd prefer <a href="http://www.supplierlist.com/photo_images/511/Rotary_Flashing_Light_Plugs_into_Any_110VAC_Outlet.jpg" target="_blank">rotary (red) lights link</a>. That'd be amazing and disorienting at the same time, granting <b>everyone</b> capable of utilizing the effect advantages.
ed: added link to rotary lights
Dead Space 2 has all gfx effects we can dream of:(hope uwe guys played it too)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b68wN9bfJs&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b68wN9bfJs...feature=related</a>
@3:45
The flashlight gives away the location of the marine, the flare does not. The flare gives away where marines have been, the flashlight does not.
Both kinds of cues can be used by aliens to good effect and both kind of cues can be used to play subtle tricks on the aliens.
Hm.. That is a great idea for a abillity of the shade-chamber!
Skulks turn nearly invisible but the shadow stays solid... so the marines have to use their flashlight to find the skulks.
Heavy weapons should lose flashlights and have to rely on flares (they are the only ones that have them) and fellow marines lights. This ought to balance dual miniguns.
Don't argue with this, you know it's awesome!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody liked this idea? I'm a little surprised...
Lasers; <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14310-party-laser-blinds-russian-ravers.html" target="_blank">everything is better with lasers</a>.
2) Because they would have a special gameplay purpose, like the decloaking suggestion
3) What about taking advantage of the awesome new engine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My biggest problem is forcing players to use a mechanic or else be utterly destroyed for something like lighting is a poor idea.
I've played many, many games where they claim "we have shadows and stuff, you can finally hide!!!!" and they all are miserable. Being unable to navigate is just one of many other problems. Perhaps the biggest is that you've taken away player's ability to assess and handle situations, which is a BAD THING. You've effectively removed player choice, which then makes the player (albeit unconsciously) hate you.
In fact, if you look at the original NS maps, they experimented a lot with darker lighting, giving a strong atmosphere. However, eventually they had to brighten it all up so that players could effectively navigate and see what they were shooting.
In terms off pointing to other games like Dead Space, let me remind everyone that Single-Player games have a very different set of goals and responsibilities than multi-player. That being said, notice how Dead Space 2 handles rotary lights in<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b68wN9bfJs&feature=player_detailpage#t=202s" target="_blank"> this vid</a>. You still have enough ambient to distinguish things, but the rotary lights not only add to the atmosphere but help briefly highlight the threats. The key points though is 1) there are enough that you can still see most of the map at any given time due to overlapping and 2) they are NOT the only light source and only help illuminate the darker corners, not the main parts of the map required for navigation and basic identification of enemies.
I sure hope the flare does not become that important. I visualize as simply another layer of counter measures from the RTS tech race perspective. Aliens may not research cloak in every game, but when they do then marines will need to use flares to counter the cloak. This works well at the economic level and the tactical level as long as the flares do not become necessary in every engagement even after cloak has being researched by aliens.
I think it's posible to implement is such a way that they are useful and balanced yet not so necessary as to become repetitive as boring.
Another way to balance flashlight vs flare use is to make it a special mode of the flashlight where you can throw it have have it work as area light but then you lose it until you pick it up again.
Marine 1: Let's check out Repair Room. Where's your flashlight?
Marine 2: I threw it in that other room. I think I saw a Skulk. Where's yours?
Marine 1: Oh I threw it in that room 2 minutes ago. I think a Skulk took it back to the hive.
=P
I agree that RTS games are mostly based on simple rules of rock-paper-scissors. For every upgrade, there should be a counter, or at least a method of equalizing the odds. I would hate to see Cloak to be easily countered by something every marine marine can acquire cheaply (eg. Flashlight or Flare).
Edit:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->die in fire. RPS = bad balance design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that you, PD? You sound just like a friend of mine. :P
I made a slip there by oversimplifying the dynamic of RTS games. Of course RTS are not simply R-P-S! I love complex RTS games like Starcraft 2. It is also a race to crush the opposition by scouting, upgrading, army positioning, timed attacks, surgical strikes. The list goes on!
die in fire. RPS = bad balance design.
EDIT: in before flame!
What I mean is that if you are relying on pure RPS mechanics, you are doing it WRONG.
Having units having their place, having strong counters, and so on is good. 3-ply balancing is good! Using bland RPS is BAD. "Hard counters" is bad.
"But spellman23, StarCraft 2 Mutas counter Marauder!!!" Congrats. So does EVERY OTHER AIR UNIT THAT CAN SHOOT GROUND. That's not a counter, that's a limitation of a single unit. And as we've seen, people thought certain units were hard counters, but they aren't. Marines versus Banelings have undergone quite a few shifts in thinking over the year.