Re-introduce welders!
Harimau
Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
<div class="IPBDescription">But there's a catch...</div>So <b>luns</b> has convinced me that welders should be re-introduced into the game.
<i>But there are a few things that have to be done...</i>
<!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->1:: It must be researched and then purchased.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->2a:: Takes up 'ammunition', but there is plenty to begin with - which can and must be restocked at the Armoury or from commander ammo drops. This allows extended use, but must be restocked.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->2b:: Alternatively, it has a bar which recharges, like Alien adrenaline, or Marine jetpack. This allows more temporary (requires recharging), but potentially infinite (does not require restocking), use.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->3:: It must take up the "primary" weapon slot - the same slot as rifles, shotguns and flamethrowers. This means people are sacrificing firepower.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<i>Now, this seems like a huge disadvantage, so...</i>
<!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->4:: It does do damage to alien players and structures, but only <b>very little</b> to <u>health</u>, but <b>plenty</b> to <u>armour</u>. It will become essential (in groups with rifle/shotgun/flamethrower-wielding marines) for taking out high-armour Onoses and Fades. The 'damage/welding stream' could have a slight magnetic auto-correcting (aiming) arc, similar to the TF2 medic.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->5:: Allow it to take out webs and infestation, but to a lesser extent than flamethrowers.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->6:: Possibly also make it anti-structure (higher 'health' damage against structures).<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->7:: Possibly also increases build speed on structures, beyond the usual marine holding USE.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->8:: It will also retain all the features it had from NS1 (repairing armour for marines, repairing buildings, electrifying buildings, etc).<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>So <b>in summary</b>, a few people on the team will forego firepower for superior on-the-field support.</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Ideally you'd have one welder per squad. Seeing squad members' equipment loadouts will become essential, though, so as not to double up - and so as to ensure there's always one.
This will not make MACs obsolete as only a few people on the team will have welders. In a highly disorganised public game with selfish players, chances are no one's going to choose the welder, which just means the team has to rely on the commander's MACs more.
<i>But there are a few things that have to be done...</i>
<!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->1:: It must be researched and then purchased.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->2a:: Takes up 'ammunition', but there is plenty to begin with - which can and must be restocked at the Armoury or from commander ammo drops. This allows extended use, but must be restocked.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->2b:: Alternatively, it has a bar which recharges, like Alien adrenaline, or Marine jetpack. This allows more temporary (requires recharging), but potentially infinite (does not require restocking), use.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->3:: It must take up the "primary" weapon slot - the same slot as rifles, shotguns and flamethrowers. This means people are sacrificing firepower.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<i>Now, this seems like a huge disadvantage, so...</i>
<!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->4:: It does do damage to alien players and structures, but only <b>very little</b> to <u>health</u>, but <b>plenty</b> to <u>armour</u>. It will become essential (in groups with rifle/shotgun/flamethrower-wielding marines) for taking out high-armour Onoses and Fades. The 'damage/welding stream' could have a slight magnetic auto-correcting (aiming) arc, similar to the TF2 medic.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->5:: Allow it to take out webs and infestation, but to a lesser extent than flamethrowers.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->6:: Possibly also make it anti-structure (higher 'health' damage against structures).<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->7:: Possibly also increases build speed on structures, beyond the usual marine holding USE.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->8:: It will also retain all the features it had from NS1 (repairing armour for marines, repairing buildings, electrifying buildings, etc).<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>So <b>in summary</b>, a few people on the team will forego firepower for superior on-the-field support.</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Ideally you'd have one welder per squad. Seeing squad members' equipment loadouts will become essential, though, so as not to double up - and so as to ensure there's always one.
This will not make MACs obsolete as only a few people on the team will have welders. In a highly disorganised public game with selfish players, chances are no one's going to choose the welder, which just means the team has to rely on the commander's MACs more.
Comments
+1 to the rest of the post though although I don't think it should take up the primary slot unless a "medic" class is more defined (and by that I don't mean a Class Select menu, but more items/weapons available for use that a player preferring the "medic" playstyle can use. I instead propose a lesser powerful primary weapon that comes forces the use of the welder as a secondary or a variety of useful secondary weapons that can be used but must be chosen over the benefits of other secondary weapons.
For example, a Grenade Launcher with a Portable Motion Scanner versus a Grenade Launcher with a Welder. I think the Portable Motion Scanner would become more useful for someone with a low-fire-rate and high-damage-output weapon than for someone with a moderately powerful weapon with faster fire rate.
Then again, C&C: Renegade had Engineers who only had Pistols as their secondary weapon (primary was a healing gun) but they also had proximity mines and remote mines so I don't know...
One possible design challenge would be representing the variation in power levels, when the Welder is used for repairing, and when it is used against an alien (esp Onos). Perhaps <b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->the Welder's primary fire could repair faster, but has shorter range, whereas its secondary fire mode has more range, deals more damage, but cannot be used to repair.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
On the other hand, Shotgun's damage against armour & structures will have to be reduced to make it more specialized.
Thanks
Regardless it would be good if the welder did have that capability. Very much like a TF2 medic's 'overheal' in practice, but electrification instead of extra health.
All valid concerns. All accounted for. Making the welder a secondary or tertiary (or even giving it its own slot) makes it so that every random joe can get one, and there's no real cost associated with getting it at all. Making the welder a primary reflects its importance and its role as a purely support weapon, that's the main point to this idea. It has to be the primary. To balance this immense 'cost', it becomes a very strong weapon in other ways than direct damage (the role of every other weapon at marines' disposal). Now, the costs and benefits are balanced.
It <b>can</b>, and in fact should, be used in combat (to quickly reduce armour significantly), but it is highly, highly encouraged to use it while in a group. End up alone and you're screwed - but if that's your playstyle, why would you pick the Welder in the first place?
I imagine the mortality rate of a Welder marine will be quite high if the alien team isn't full of idiots, so the actual personal resource cost for a Welder shouldn't be that high, easily replaced.
I don't mind giving the player extra pistol ammo or armour or even a more powerful secondary, but I don't know any way to rationalise it when you're purchasing a primary slot weapon. If you were buying an equipment set, then that'd make sense, but then it begs the question, why aren't the others sets?
The best part to the anti-armour concept is that it is good against high level lifeforms with their very high armour (100 for fade, 600 for onos), but don't make much of a difference to low level lifeforms like skulks (10 armour), so it scales rather well.
All valid concerns. All accounted for. Making the welder a secondary makes it so that every random joe can get one, and there's no real cost associated with it. Making the welder a primary reflects its importance and its role as a purely support weapon, that's the main point to this idea. It has to be the primary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They had specific electric field upgrades on them, and only select buildings. If only secondary and melee were more useful to begin with, then there might be some incentive to switch to welder and back depending on situation and playstyle. But yes, I support primary replacement.
The axe is fairly useless, but the pistol is fairly epic, at least against low level lifeforms - if it hits, anyway.
a possible way to rationalise: due to ditching the rifle and rifle ammo, the reduction in weight allows a marine to carry more pistol ammo/extended magazines/heavier armour.
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->5:: Allow it to take out webs and infestation, but to a lesser extent than flamethrowers.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->6:: Possibly also make it anti-structure (higher 'health' damage against structures).<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->7:: Possibly also increases build speed on structures, beyond the usual marine holding USE.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->8:: It will also retain all the features it had from NS1 (repairing armour for marines, repairing buildings, electrifying buildings, etc).<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not convinced that welders are necessary ..
Think about that. An onos is twice as big as a Marine... and the marine has to walk up to the onos just armed with a welder to destroy its carapace?
I really don't want to be that marine.
I bet a minigun on an exosuit is way more useful to take armor away from onoses (whats the plural of onos again?) then any welder could do.
For a fade is a shotgun more effective then just a welding tool and for takeing webs away is a flamethrower more handy because it is also a effective weapon against smaller aliens.
And for repairing there are MACs
So tell me, for what do we need a welder in the game?
Edit:
Electrifying buildings would be imba because alien structures (mainly Harvesters) don't have that advantage and are still easy targets for marines.
Axe is good against structures and for shame-killing aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1831950:date=Feb 13 2011, 11:46 AM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Feb 13 2011, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not convinced that welders are necessary ..
Think about that. An onos is twice as big as a Marine... and the marine has to walk up to the onos just armed with a welder to destroy its carapace?
I really don't want to be that marine.
I bet a minigun on an exosuit is way more useful to take armor away from onoses (whats the plural of onos again?) then any welder could do.
For a fade is a shotgun more effective then just a welding tool and for takeing webs away is a flamethrower more handy because it is also a effective weapon against smaller aliens.
And for repairing there are MACs
So tell me, for what do we need a welder in the game?
Edit:
Electrifying buildings would be imba because alien structures (mainly Harvesters) don't have that advantage and are still easy targets for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
You haven't really identified a need in NS2 for the welder that isn't already done by something else or would add much value. Unless you plan on nerfing other things (e.g. non-welding marines can build or MACs can't repair) then the welder is basically an obsolete throwback to NS1.
the only thing I like about this idea, welders need to be researched, and they could possibly replace the marine axe. Since the welder can repair buildings, and restore armor, its good trade of. For example you can have an option in the armory buying rifle with an axe or rifle with welder. (their should also be price difference)
welder does minor damage as it did in ns1.
now lets go back to what I said before about certain abilities need to be removed. to make welders more useful we must limit how other things work now.
1. picking what macs can or cannot do (to make welders more widely used, have commander tell marine go weld certain things without depending on mac)
2.armory no longer can give armor (armory can be dropped anywhere, giving marines access to free armor/health, limit things to health only as it was before)
3.medpacks give armor, this is more serious thing since medpack can be spammed
4.infestation will break anything that might require welding, for example locked doors. this would require marine to run to weld certain parts of the map again
here are some idea just top of my head. most of all, we must reduce usefulness of macs, I can't stress this enough.
Think about that. An onos is twice as big as a Marine... and the marine has to walk up to the onos just armed with a welder to destroy its carapace?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can easily increase the Welder's range. (see my earlier suggestion)
<!--quoteo(post=1831950:date=Feb 14 2011, 06:46 AM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Feb 14 2011, 06:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I bet a minigun on an exosuit is way more useful to take armor away from onoses (whats the plural of onos again?) then any welder could do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Welder is meant to be a cheap support weapon that is mainly used for repairing buildings and armour, but also has the bonus of being an anti-armour/structure weapon (like the Gorge in NS).
<!--quoteo(post=1831950:date=Feb 14 2011, 06:46 AM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Feb 14 2011, 06:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For a fade is a shotgun more effective then just a welding tool and for takeing webs away is a flamethrower more handy because it is also a effective weapon against smaller aliens.
And for repairing there are MACs
So tell me, for what do we need a welder in the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Welder enables a Marine to play the role similar to the Engineer class (which some players enjoy), where the player assists their team from the backline. The Welder would essentially be a jack-of-all-trades weapon, more effective than the Flamethrower against structures, and destroys armour quicker than the Shotgun (and possibly has longer range). It is also the only weapon that is also a repair tool.
I hope we could all see the value of such a Welder in the game. =)
Marines can always fix each other up after combat and fix structuress, but to do it in any volume or at speed, they need multiple marines.
Anyway, the benefit is that it adds a very clear <b>class role</b> (you made me say it luns) for marines. It repairs ally armour, it destroys enemy armour; it helps build ally structures faster, it destroys enemy structures faster. Flamethrowers and GLs are for area control and structure destruction. Flamethrower also stops energy regen. Rifles and shotguns are for taking out aliens. etc.
It allows a marine to act as support for a squad, and MACs can be the commander's backup, base monkeys and faithful minions.
But it doesn't come cheaply. Sure, the plasma cost maybe low, but the fact is, you are giving up your first slot weapon. You have much-reduced firepower, and you're a bit more vulnerable now. That is a pretty big cost.
It won't be ridiculously bad at killing skulks or gorges or lerks - it'll still do some regular damage, but it should be harder than using any 'weapon'.
luns: The problem with that is, there's no real cost. Anyone can get a welder - most people never even get out their axe (except for shame-killing), and they'll have every building and every power node and every marine's armour up to full spec in seconds, all the time.
You clearly just want NS1, but we gotta be smarter about this.
Also, please stop talking about the MACs. You say you can't stress it enough, but you really have. You really have. If someone threw a brick through my window wrapped with a note that "luns dislikes MACs" and it hit me in the FACE, it would be less obvious than you have made it.
its suppose to be simple tool, and some basic ideas what can or cannot do. its not long range weapon or something to remove aliens armor etc.
this item should replace the axe, which should have an option to buy it with rifle. (and their should be cost difference because it will limit the item)
why should the item be limited? so not everyone will be playing the same role! (class roles doesn't mean everyone has same roll, lol)
thats why it must have cost difference, trade of, cost more but worth its cost. also, just because you give up your axe, you chosen to play different role on the team, you still not seeing it. you seem to want the welder, be jack of all trades and have no trade of.
the reason I keep saying we must limit macs what they can or cannot do is because when you add the welder, certain abilities will start countering each other. Once you have welder in the game, marines tasks will be maintaining certain things that macs just wont do. that is what class roles are. commander will depend on the marine with a welder to do something that mac can't do anymore.
Seriously, this thread is making me cry, that and the large amount of incorrect information such as welders electrifying in NS1...
I'm all for a welder as an OPTION in ns2 (like marines building) but since when do welders shooting some crazy arc shot that takes out an aliens armor make any sense? And then to have it replace your primary weapon? Sorry guys don't think this will happen; even the support classes in this game have ways to get kills (gorge has spit/hydras, lerk has spike/spores, etc).
You realise this is the ideas and suggestions forum, right?
We don't care about what it <b>is</b>, we care about what it <b>can be</b>. I don't know why some of you lack the faculty to realise that.
This idea isn't just to re-introduce the welder as-is to NS2, what the ###### is the point of that? <b>To make MACs obsolete?</b> No way that'll fly. <u>Give it up.</u>
Instead, it's to make it reasonable to re-introduce it. It re-imagines the welder's role and functions, by making it a primary 'weapon', while retaining all the old functions.
And yes, it can kill aliens. It may be harder than using direct-damage like shotguns and rifles, but that's the point of a support weapon.
Yes, I was mistaken about the electrification thing. My bad. What else is part of this 'large amount of incorrect information' so I can correct it?
luns, I'll give you fifty bucks, through paypal!, if you can refrain from mentioning MACs for the next month (march 15th!). It's a bet.
Instead, it's to make it reasonable to re-introduce it. It re-imagines the welder's role and functions, by making it a primary 'weapon', while retaining all the old functions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize these were the same arguments which were disregarded to allow marines to build too because it <b>does not</b> make the MAC obsolete. (clearly that didn't happen and everyone was crying "OMG no use for MACs now!" when that wasn't even the case) Same with welding. MACs welding up bases, possibly players, etc is always going to be useful; even with marines being capable of it as well. The ability for a marine to pickup a welder and help DOES still become a trade off. If you are welding you aren't shooting, and are practically equivalent to the MAC that could also be following you but is bad at dodging or sensing when to get away from danger.
I can see no logical reason why if marines can weld that MACs would become useless. Commanders often rather their players out fighting than building/welding, but sometimes the commander NEEDS the marines to build/weld in certain situations and simply hoping that the MAC can do so without being killed is not sufficient.
Personally I didn't like the welder in NS1 to begin with (mainly because the player had to be vulnerable to use) but it DID have its uses.
And in short -> marines with welders are very useful however its inclusion would never make the MAC obsolete. Anyone who played NS1 enough realized the use in marines welding, but hated to have to sit at base welding, or weld when aliens are around, etc. which would all be remedied by both of them having the ability to weld although marines having to spend money on it)
that's the whole point, lol.
its a trade of. its still something some just do not understand, or the point of having welder in the game. Think of it like this, we have medics in battle who aid our soldiers, who are armed as well but to treat certain problem such as dying solider, they can expose themselves to harm while trying to aid the solider. Some people just take wonderful idea, twist it and turn it into something ugly while more simple approach is needed.
But i do agree with you everything else you said Lazer. You made good points, but what Harimau trying to do with welder idea is mostly train wrack.
I will write again for some reasonable ideas welder should be used for:
1.welders needs to be researched before they can be given out
2.armory will have an option; welder with rifle, it can replace the axe but never pistol or primary weapon.
3.welder can do minor damage as it did before in ns1, at melee range
3.a welder can repair buildings and marine armors
4.macs can no longer do certain tasks, commander must depend on marine with a welder rather than a bot (for example welding doors shut)
5.adv armory can only can restore armor but not normal armory
6.medpacks should not restore armor as well, this is one of those things indeed is overpowered currently, since meds can be spammned
these are reasonable ideas what can be done with welders, and its something indeed must be added into the game to add some class roles into the game. Its important we have marines with different tasks so the game doesn't feel all about shooting your rifle, or depending on macs to do what marines should be doing themselves or commander heavily depend on macs more than marines.
2.armory will have an option; welder with rifle, it can replace the axe but never pistol or primary weapon.
3.welder can do minor damage as it did before in ns1, at melee range
3.a welder can repair buildings and marine armors
4.macs can no longer do certain tasks, commander must depend on marine with a welder rather than a bot (for example welding doors shut)
5.adv armory can only can restore armor but not normal armory
6.medpacks should not restore armor as well, this is one of those things indeed is overpowered currently, since meds can be spammned<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see, Lazer, someone does want MACs to be obsolete.
Medpacks restoring armor might be a bug right now actually. I could see it intentional for the armory because that's a stationary structure but medspam recovering armor as well seems borderline unfair when really the armor should be repaired from a welder. (even if the MAC has to do it)
Why limit MAC behavior just to let marines use welders? The whole point of the MAC was to be a type of assistant which could help at base/on the field and be especially useful for the poor balance of small team sizes. Even if marines can weld things there will still be many many situations where it's just much easier to send a MAC to either weld or build something when marines are occupied. On the other hand a marine with a welder has a pair of eyes on the ground and can make certain evasive/defensive decisions a MAC would not. It seems like there is already trade offs by allowing marines to weld because when a marine pulls out a welder he is practically being removed from battle too.
That's the way I see it but don't really care if marine welders ever go in. If they do however it would be a poor decision to make it return as some crazy anti-armor weapon and should certainly not require nerfing the MAC. (this is when it starts becoming obsolete)
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112746" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=112746</a>
read it respectively, i enlarged the most important points if you just want to skim through.
I think this is the best option and will work for the marines without causing problems like introducing an insane welder gun that can melt enemy alien armor, which doesnt make sense because aliens are biological.
If medpacks only restore health, let a MAC do the armor repairing.
So the commander has to take more care of the marines and the marines have to stick together and work togehter if they want to stay alive... which adds to teamplay again
and it would add another reason to protect a MAC.
And it makes more sense in a logical way because if you weld a armor you need some welding wire to close the holes in it
like this <img src="http://www.amtonline.com/article/photos/1216063857138_d3_08.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
....and I can't imagine that marines want to carry more weight then they already do .
Besides, a MAC with its cubic head would have enough cargo space in it for welding wire.
BTW, did I mention that I am a huge fan of MAC and Drifter? ;-)
So the commander has to take more care of the marines and the marines have to stick together and work togehter if they want to stay alive... which adds to teamplay again
and it would add another reason to protect a MAC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. I think the issue is really that the MAC can not fly around welding the marines yet (it probably will be eventually).
Only downside I see is that not allowing marines to weld does remove some of the 'do it yourself' features that many players desire, although having to weld in NS1 was a bit of a burden. Still kind of feel this issue would be remedied by both MACs and marines being able to weld. Also part of the fun in this game is having options, but although marine welding has its benefits (and hardly any drawbacks), it just might not be a necessary enough feature for UWE to spend their resources on right now.
I start to understand why some gamer keep demanding the welder.
And i agree with you that not allowing marines to weld does remove some of the 'do it yourself' features that many players desire.
On the other hand I like the Idea that the MAC and so the Commander has to take care of the armor.
It also adds to marine-commander-interaction <i>(which some players are claiming is gone since the marines buy their weapons themself)</i> that the marines have to inform the commander about damaged buildings instead of repairing 'em themselves.
I am in two minds now....
It also adds to marine-commander-interaction <i>(which some players are claiming is gone since the marines buy their weapons themself)</i> that the marines have to inform the commander about damaged buildings instead of repairing 'em themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
bingo!
Lazer @
you said macs are made as assistants to the marines, but when they are clearly doing far more than they should its clearly a problem.
relaying on mac to build/repair a power node is reasonable, relaying on a mac(s) to build everything else for you is huge problem.
as an assistant should not be doing more than a marine, that is the problem, they are seriously doing too much.
so when I said limit them, i'm not saying remove them but those who played ns1 for many years should know how gameplay can be without them. which wasn't bad at all, since those who like MACs enjoy doing less work.
MACs only dumb-down commanding, marines do less work, and at some point of the game they replace marines.
some do not understand this, and enjoy this easy mode marines offer currently. these problems would only increase and hurt the game itself.
The answer is Nanites. It is aliens' kryptonite. The Welder shoots a hot beam of plasma that melts alien armour.
"Summary: the bacteria and nanotech attack each other, constantly struggling for control and interfering with each other's functions." - Original Natural Selection Manual <a href="http://www.bryns.co.uk/ns2/manual-104/alien_gridlock.html" target="_blank">http://www.bryns.co.uk/ns2/manual-104/alien_gridlock.html</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1832622:date=Feb 17 2011, 04:32 AM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Feb 17 2011, 04:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still don't see se purpose of a welder.
If medpacks only restore health, let a MAC do the armor repairing.
So the commander has to take more care of the marines and the marines have to stick together and work togehter if they want to stay alive... which adds to teamplay again
and it would add another reason to protect a MAC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about improving teamplay between the marines? Some players enjoy the medic/engineer roles. Right now, there is little interaction between marines, as builder bots do most the building and repair works.
<!--quoteo(post=1832622:date=Feb 17 2011, 04:32 AM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Feb 17 2011, 04:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And it makes more sense in a logical way because if you weld a armor you need some welding wire to close the holes in it
....and I can't imagine that marines want to carry more weight then they already do .
Besides, a MAC with its cubic head would have enough cargo space in it for welding wire.
BTW, did I mention that I am a huge fan of MAC and Drifter? ;-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gameplay has priority over realism. The Welder uses nanotech, and has enough "ammo" for repair (which can run out). Besides, you don't see MACs travelling back to base for welding wires when they run out, do you?
<a href="http://www.bryns.co.uk/ns2/manual-104/front_nanotech.html" target="_blank">http://www.bryns.co.uk/ns2/manual-104/front_nanotech.html</a> (Wall of Text lol)
MACs and Drifters are fun, but wouldn't it be more fun to protect an actual human player (who cooperates better, and thanks you) rather than a bot? =)
Not a bug. But not final either.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Posted yesterday (about 1 day ago) by Brian Cronin via GetSatisfaction: Are the medpacks suppose to repair armor as well as restore health?
I believe they are. I am not sure it will stay like that forever however.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1832625:date=Feb 17 2011, 01:48 AM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Feb 17 2011, 01:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but although marine welding has its benefits (and hardly any drawbacks),<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what I see as the problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1832662:date=Feb 17 2011, 05:04 AM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Feb 17 2011, 05:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bingo!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do realise he was advocating not having welders at all, and letting the MACs do all the repairing? I'm not against this idea, in fact. I figured you would be, though.
<!--quoteo(post=1832662:date=Feb 17 2011, 05:04 AM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Feb 17 2011, 05:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you said macs are made as assistants to the marines, but when they are clearly doing far more than they should its clearly a problem.
relaying on mac to build/repair a power node is reasonable, relaying on a mac(s) to build everything else for you is huge problem.
as an assistant should not be doing more than a marine, that is the problem, they are seriously doing too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines build faster than MACs. Your own fault for not contributing.
twiliteblue has summed it up, pretty much. We're adding a support role. Anti-armour makes it not OP against skulks who only have 10 armour, but very useful against onos who have 600 armour (which almost always soaks up MOST of the damage dealt to an onos).
Another idea is to have the welder as an attachment for the rifle, which would make it useful late-game, and this would of course require sacrificing other possible upgrades. You can't have a GL, AND an ammo upgrade AND a welder on your rifle. Has much less drawbacks than the original anti-armour idea, but somewhat maintains that idea of the welder being a primary. So you can't have a flamethrower/shotgun AND a welder, you gotta stick with your basic rifle.