Protected Clan tags
McGlaspie
www.team156.com Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
www.team156.com Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
<div class="IPBDescription">No one like imposters or fraud</div>Myself and several other community members have formed an NS2 clan. Yes, I realize it is rather early to form a clan, but we're all damned enthusiastic about NS2! Recently, we've been seeing people impersonating our members on several servers. When considering future clan play, ladders, etc. this is disconcerting to me. A clan's reputation counts for a lot and affects what kind of people look for membership in it. It will also impact how other clans view your own.
So, with the premise set, I'd like to pitch a NS2 feature: Protected Clan Tags. The way I see this being possible is the fact NS2 is already tied into Steamworks. Using Steam, you could take a user's Steam ID and check they are a member of an invite only Steam Group. The only "gotchya" I see right now is a central repository of valid clan tags would be required in order for this to work. Also, how would a new tag get validated? Just so there isn't a mistake, I'm not suggesting UWE take time out from developing the actual game to implement something like this.
I'll freely admit it is very early to be discussing a feature like this, but I wanted to throw it out there and get peoples opinion on the idea and the reasoning behind it. I'm probably going to post this to Get Satisfaction regardless.
Thoughts?
So, with the premise set, I'd like to pitch a NS2 feature: Protected Clan Tags. The way I see this being possible is the fact NS2 is already tied into Steamworks. Using Steam, you could take a user's Steam ID and check they are a member of an invite only Steam Group. The only "gotchya" I see right now is a central repository of valid clan tags would be required in order for this to work. Also, how would a new tag get validated? Just so there isn't a mistake, I'm not suggesting UWE take time out from developing the actual game to implement something like this.
I'll freely admit it is very early to be discussing a feature like this, but I wanted to throw it out there and get peoples opinion on the idea and the reasoning behind it. I'm probably going to post this to Get Satisfaction regardless.
Thoughts?
Comments
This requires a modified scoreboard, a mod that looks up player's tags, and a remote location for an inclusive-taglist (SteamIDs and tags).
All in all, quite an endeavor for what could be considered malicious behaviour that ought to be corrected by server-administrators (via bans) ideally.
EDIT:
Raza, I don't believe Spark's Lua implementation supports Unicode at this point. They are all byte-length characters. Lua's default support for unicode is dodgy at best.
That's what I was thinking also. It would be a lot of work, but it would a cool feature that sets NS2 apart from other competitive games. I could even see this being used to create non-competitive match statistics, like Clan A members have killed Clan B members X times, like a clan-level HlstatsX system. I think this is something UWE should seriously consider after they release NS2.
First you need to have a database that someone keeps up to date, which is filled with strings of clan tags.
Then the server must check this list (which likely will end up being very big), and search the name for all of those tags, which actually can be made safe from this system (adding a letter which is hardly visible, or if spark will handle strings in a certain way, add chars which is not visible at all (the option is having a default symbol all those chars use).
If any of those tags appear in the name, there has to be some sort of code happening, such as removing the tag, or banning/kicking the player, which no matter how it ends up, some people will not like the system and fight to get rid of it, while others will fight for keeping it instead of some of the other systems (flame wars).
The second idea is better, as it skips looking up steam stuff (which would probably take some time to implement right), and this system also removes the issue of false alarm when a player use a name which happens to contain the same letters as a 3 char tag (as is the usuall tag length), as the players name would be hardcoded into a list by some guy who prolly is paid to handle this list 24/7 to make sure players can rename easily mid-game (and that is very feasible right?).
The tags a player get in the tag area using this system, is almost certain to be valid, and that makes it possible for this system to actually skip caring about name (making system use steamid in list instead), and instead let players use whatever name they want, including any tags they want in the name.
Myself I dislike the whole idea though, as many clans/communitys/ranks/stuff happens to have the same tags, making the issue still be there, by people thinking one tag might mean another.
The whole database idea is also bad, as someone (probably paid) would have to be sole person to update it to make it have atleast some security, otherwise the impostors could just aswell edit themself in it making it all useless. And even with such a worker, they could just create a clan with same tag, making them have that tag in the list.
The worker would also have to work 24/7 with a very repetitive dull job, as clans is so dynamic. people will want clans added and removed, they will want tags added/removed from certain people/themself, and they all will want it instant. So even if this person might have alot of free time when nothing happens, it have to be ready to do its work when needed
tl;dr
This idea is bad, would cost uwe resources and wont affect the issue.
It's a matter of implementation. I believe it can be made easier way - with a single (or more) clan tag matched with single steam-id, then the server checks if certain steam-id
has the clan tag 'allowed' (added to its db); if no changes name to same name w/o clan tag. Simple, easy, fast - I believe steam authentication on server works same way. So now we have actual authentication when we want to connect clan tag and steam id. I believe it can be made automatic, moderation or overlooking by 1 person will be enough, no need for 'dull, repetitive job'. Definitely no need for adding it all manually (!!!).
<!--quoteo(post=1829567:date=Feb 4 2011, 09:37 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Feb 4 2011, 09:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's what I was thinking also. It would be a lot of work, but it would a cool feature that sets NS2 apart from other competitive games. I could even see this being used to create non-competitive match statistics, like Clan A members have killed Clan B members X times, like a clan-level HlstatsX system. I think this is something UWE should seriously consider after they release NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1. I love the idea of registering clan tags.
Just to prove the point, i can tell my friends lets ninja* #156 (the clan alpha is in, right?), and exploite flame whatever... the ###### out of ppl on different servers. (I wouldnt really do it ofc, but still - if ppl want to do such things under fake clantags they ll find a way... with or without such a system.)
And even if these ppl were too slow... they could just make #156|Nickname or [#156] Nickname... whatever...
*the first day this system goes live... may the faster guy win ;P
has the clan tag 'allowed' (added to its db); if no changes name to same name w/o clan tag. Simple, easy, fast - I believe steam authentication on server works same way. So now we have actual authentication when we want to connect clan tag and steam id. I believe it can be made automatic, moderation or overlooking by 1 person will be enough, no need for 'dull, repetitive job'. Definitely no need for adding it all manually (!!!).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, a real person is not rly needed, if there is a system (or similar) where it checks a list of groups this client gives it, then compares the steamid to the steam groups memberlists.
But the second idea was (if I understood it correctly) that there should be some sort of a more official database, where the system finds the tags added to a steamid (like, tagTable = idTable[steamid]). With such a database someone needs to add players and their tags to it, and unless its some official person who do it, the ppl themself would be the ones (completely destroying the purpose :P).
But as I said, those ideas wont affect the problem, cause even with a system ike this, all someone need to do is make a group using same tag, and then they can say ingame that they is part of that other bigger clan.
What I do not understand however is why people would want to say they are part of a clan they are not part of. If people believe them they will not care, if they dont, only some will care. The only benefit the impostors would gain is being able to grief to destroy one clans reputation in order to make their own clan more popular. And that would likely just end up with that other clan doing the same back.
EDIT:
<!--quoteo(post=1829624:date=Feb 4 2011, 05:08 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 4 2011, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1829624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The first day this feature goes live, a lot known tags will be reserved forever by some... nice guys. Even if you would need playercount requirements to create a clan tag...
Just to prove the point, i can tell my friends lets ninja* #156 (the clan alpha is in, right?), and exploite flame whatever... the ###### out of ppl on different servers. (I wouldnt really do it ofc, but still - if ppl want to do such things under fake clantags they ll find a way... with or without such a system.)
And even if you were to slow... i could just make it #156|Nickname or [#156] Nickname... whatever...
*the first day this system goes live... may the faster guy win ;P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except such a system obviously would not reserve tags for one group, seeing as a shÃtload of groups use the same tags (and why would only one be allowed to exist in a certain game?).
I think I actually once saw 2 clans having almost identical names, but not even knowing about eachothers (2 different games, named something like "stargate clan" or similar bound-to-be-common name).
I think I actually once saw 2 clans having almost identical names, but not even knowing about eachothers (2 different games, named something like "stargate clan" or similar bound-to-be-common name).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but OT wanted "Protected Clan Tags"
To have any use of this system, you need individual statistics of ppl + maybe a option to register them as clan... so you can not only sort by name but also by clan...
Clanstats are not needed since there is no system like esl gather or official clan tournaments... and if i wouldnt play it without extended anti cheat mesurements by uwe (VAC or PB is not enough.) and some official spectators/admins or a good save replay system with moderators that watch them if needed etc...
PS: If statistics have any real use is another question... why should i care? You cant even tell if its legit or haxxed stats (bots etc. - and no you wouldnt see 100% accuracy etc)
The last few popular games with a global statistics + ranking system i played, only got haxx0rs on the first few pages...
Since i dont know any other ns2 clan i just took their name for my example...
In order for this to really solve your problem of players giving a tag a bad name, this would have to be reasonably widespread, which I don't consider very likely. The idea of a tag-system in and of itself though, we will probably see in Leagues\Ladders. For that reason it would certainly be a good idea to ask UWE to include a (clan)tag-column on the scoreboard, so that such a system can be put in place server-side (otherwise you'd have to get every client to download a mod for the scoreboard).
Realistically, griefers will always find a way around it. I know that when clan tags were open once APB retail was released, someone stole my clan's name. We just changed it and continued on without a problem- but still having an invite system, or authentication still greatly helped keep most people at bay.
I realize that splitting the MMO and FPS clan distinction is tough, and this could always be a problem with any clan on any FPS server based game but I still think something like this could easily help clan's maintain their reputation. If it's possible, either be UWE, or even Valve, I'd support it.
Even then, you would need:
1. Trustworthy gatekeeper(s). UW doesn't have time to be vetting potential clans and disputes. One or more groups would have to take on the responsibility.
2. A host for the clan info. UW doesn't have the time to manage the data or set up the servers. Someone would have to host a server that contains the clan/member details. Eventually, UW might host it if it becomes popular enough.
I recommend some get the ball rolling. Create a web page to host the mod and get started on finding a server.
As for the remote data-storage, it could be as crude as a comma-seperated .txt-file hosted on a www-server (privacy issues notwithstanding). A quick calculation gives a database of 20.000 people which amounts to no more than 700KBytes, something that servers can easely download upon map-change\server-startup. A mod doing this is very easely created.
What is really required is that the client-scoreboard allows for displaying a tag-column, containing a tiny string sent from the server. So, Raza, if you wouldn't mind making one more addition to the scoreboard... (I was thinking of a Server.SendNetworkMessage to send tag-data, and a Client.HookNetworkMessage in Scoreboard.lua to catch this data and store it 'local', this way none of the other lua-files will have to be changed).
I know HoN prevent you from reserving a clan name + tag unless you have a certain number of players involved. And typically people are creative and there haven't been issues of people stealing names. I'm part of a "clan" except it's just some friends.
It's still hilarious when we get curbstomped and people taunt us about being a ###### clan.