Random Hive Start

thebeastmodethebeastmode Join Date: 2011-01-23 Member: 78645Members
I think that Aliens should always have a random hive start. Having a designated hive for alien start is rather dull. I liked the fear in NS1 when the marines didn't know where the heck the hive was and all strategy for that game was based solely on the location of the alien hive. So much more dynamic. What are your guys' thoughts?

Comments

  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    With the current map layout it is a bad idea, NS maps were basically three separate maps merged into one. I'd love to see a randomized starting location for both teams though, making sure they are at opposite ends as suggested by <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828274" target="_blank">schkorpio in this thread</a>


    Also this is the wrong forum for suggestions :P
  • B1ackSmokeB1ackSmoke Join Date: 2011-01-25 Member: 78855Members
    edited January 2011
    I agree with ya. The games need to be more strategic rather than just knowing exactly where the other teams base is and running straight to it at start and winning the game in 2 seconds. NS players liked the factor the 'not knowing' where or when certain things were gonna suddenly become chaos!
  • PseudoKnightPseudoKnight Join Date: 2002-06-18 Member: 791Members
    It isn't just the "not knowing," but the map plays out very differently depending on the starting location, almost like it was a different map. That's very efficient design; as Kouji_San said, like three maps in one. Now imagine marines having a random starting location as well. That would be something like 30 maps in one (assuming six locations), though you only had to learn it once.

    This would be moddable in the future, but won't be in vanilla NS2.
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
    There has been a thread about that a few days ago. I think the overall conclusion was that mappers should be able to decide if their map allows random spawn locations for one or both sides or not.
  • Soylent_greenSoylent_green Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11220Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1828336:date=Jan 29 2011, 12:28 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 29 2011, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the current map layout it is a bad idea, NS maps were basically three separate maps merged into one. I'd love to see a randomized starting location for both teams though, making sure they are at opposite ends as suggested by <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828274" target="_blank">schkorpio in this thread</a>


    Also this is the wrong forum for suggestions :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Sometimes nearby tech nodes would work, some technodes should never be marine start, some should never be alien start. It's very hard to implement some automated mechanisms to do this intelligently. The lazy solution is to force the mapper to designate possible {marine start, alien start }-pairs and then just pick at random from a list. The even lazier solution is to expose some limited LUA functionality to the mapper and make the mapper implement whatever desired functionality himself in a lua file named ns2_<mapname>.lua.
  • slayer20slayer20 Killed a man once. Join Date: 2007-12-13 Member: 63157Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I'm not sure I'd like the idea of random start locations...

    I mean, it'd be cool if mappers could decide if they want their map to be random or not, but as a forced thing? Don't like it.
  • saltybp53saltybp53 Join Date: 2010-07-22 Member: 72675Members
    I am not a fan of repetitive gameplay, so this is a epic decision for me if they add it.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1828466:date=Jan 29 2011, 05:28 PM:name=saltybp53)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (saltybp53 @ Jan 29 2011, 05:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not a fan of repetitive gameplay, so this is a epic decision for me if they add it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Considering functional random starts usually means 'the map is really boring' I think you'll find that simply spending the time to make extra maps would be a better solution.
  • B1ackSmokeB1ackSmoke Join Date: 2011-01-25 Member: 78855Members
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1828474:date=Jan 29 2011, 09:43 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 29 2011, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Considering functional random starts usually means 'the map is really boring' I think you'll find that simply spending the time to make extra maps would be a better solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Chris you are throwing everything out of proportion, just because we want random hive starts don't mean the map sucks, just means it would be a cool idea to add making the gameplay more fun/adventerous. Maybe that's not your suite but that's what we mean by random starts.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    Yes and in order to make random hive spawns balanced, you need to make it so the map is more or less the same from each spawn.

    Which means the map is more or less the same every time you play it.

    Which means that you spent time you could be spending making other maps in order to make one map play more or less the same every time.

    I would rather have two entirely different maps than one map with three random spawns, because it's still the same map.
  • thebeastmodethebeastmode Join Date: 2011-01-23 Member: 78645Members
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1828603:date=Jan 30 2011, 12:32 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 30 2011, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes and in order to make random hive spawns balanced, you need to make it so the map is more or less the same from each spawn.

    Which means the map is more or less the same every time you play it.

    Which means that you spent time you could be spending making other maps in order to make one map play more or less the same every time.

    I would rather have two entirely different maps than one map with three random spawns, because it's still the same map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Or.... you could have random hive starts and not have to spend all the time making new maps. Each alien hive start utilizes the map in a different way. This will affect the strategy for both marines and aliens.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    It also grants some uncertainty to the early game, and requires players to go scout. On the other hand, if you always know where your opponent is (having pairs of starting locations would also result in this) the early game will proceed pretty much the same way each time, so the strategies will be pretty much the same each time, and the overall game will proceed much the same each time. Kinda moot at this point because the game is still so inflexible.
  • thebeastmodethebeastmode Join Date: 2011-01-23 Member: 78645Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1828731:date=Jan 31 2011, 04:05 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 31 2011, 04:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It also grants some uncertainty to the early game, and requires players to go scout. On the other hand, if you always know where your opponent is (having pairs of starting locations would also result in this) the early game will proceed pretty much the same way each time, so the strategies will be pretty much the same each time, and the overall game will proceed much the same each time. Kinda moot at this point because the game is still so inflexible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Exactly, to put it blunt, the game turns boring when there is no sense of mystery.
  • shivshiv Join Date: 2010-04-11 Member: 71341Members, Constellation
    Not that I'm necessarily saying I'm a fan of random hive starts. But why do you only specifically call out random starts for aliens? Shouldn't both the alien and marine starts be randomized in this theoretical game play change?
  • NoOtherDestinyNoOtherDestiny Join Date: 2003-07-31 Member: 18627Members
    I like random starting positions. I just like not knowing exactly what the aliens are up to straight away at the start. It adds some randomness to the game as well as mystery, which makes it more fun, because you have to keep an eye on what is going on and be prepared to adapt at any moment.
  • B1ackSmokeB1ackSmoke Join Date: 2011-01-25 Member: 78855Members
  • LazerLazer Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14406Members, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    Going to agree with everyone here about the mystery being a good thing. I thought Flayra had mentioned random hive locations being a feature just none of the maps use it given the currently planned base game play style?
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
    The problem with random start is it can make the natural tech expansion harder to setup for the mapper.

    That being said, would be interesting to set this up as a gamemode.
  • B1ackSmokeB1ackSmoke Join Date: 2011-01-25 Member: 78855Members
    I would have to say random hive/marine starts would give map designers more ideas to make multi leveled maps and more!
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